Topic awaiting preservation: " The Iraqi Video " have they given us ALL the facts ? (Page 2 of 2)

http://cnn.aimtoday.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040513%2F1505162354.htm&sc=rontz&photoid=20040512PHW01D

Pity.

I agree. Blaming someone else for the death of his son is very sad.


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Well, obviously the guy is distressed. Secondly, he was totally anti-Bush to begin with. Now he is using his son's death as a platform to express his pre-disposed political views. How convenient for a man who hated the administration to begin with to be able to channel all the anger about his son's death in the same direction.

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"Nicholas Berg died for the sins of George Bush and (Defense Secretary) Donald Rumsfeld," Michael Berg, visibly upset, told ABC television.

"The al-Qaeda people are probably just as bad as they are, but this administration did this," he said.

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Probably just as bad? Come on Mike, wake up. I feel your pain and anger, as I think 99% of Americans do, but damn. You have got to be kidding me. All that besides, your son was riding around by himself in a WAR ZONE!!!

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"The al-Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing," Berg's father, Michael, told reporters camped outside his house Thursday. "They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down. He was there to help people, not to hurt anyone."

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He obviously doesn't understand the terrorist mindset very well. I suppose the terrorists who flew planes into the WTC didn't know what they were doing either. And as if the terrorists give a damn about a westerner, and a Jewish man, there to help when they wish us all dead, period. I fear for the future of this country when there are people out there who have views like this and have a channel through which to express them.

Ramasax

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njuice42 said:

But this, maybe a few of us don't want to believe that we just saw an innocent (?) man get beheaded.

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Innocent? Well, innocence is the eye of the beholder. I personally think this a destestable act, but we all know my stance on war by now, don't we? Bad things happen in war, that's all these is to it, and they're getting worse now that we live in a media-driven world where bad things are shown all the time, so I'm sure groups feel that to get their message across they have to do really bad things. Now, I haven't seen this movie, and I nether need nor want to. I believe you were correct in removing the links emps, since we don't discriminate by age here, we do have ot be careful what we allow to be put up without prior warning.

And as for the 'missing' gushes of blood, you've got to consider that, when you cut someone's head off the nerve signals to the muscles, including the heart, cease to be, so there's nothing to make the heart perform the two contractions and numberous valves motions it has to make in order to send a pressurised squirt of blood up the carotid artery to the brain (or the hole now occupying the area). The person who decided to use that for evidence that the video was fake obviously has a) a great love of hollywood films; b) no idea about basic physiology; and c) a very gullible nature.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

If you cut someone's head off with one swift skillful stroke, you will get a pressurized squirt like you see in movies. Nick Berg's beheading was anything but swift and I would think that is why that was not seen.

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He obviously doesn't understand the terrorist mindset very well.

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I completely agree. I think he believes that if the terrorists knew that Mr. Berg had benevolent motives for being in Iraq that they would never have killed him. To believe that proves he does not understand their motives. One should study a bit into the faction of Islam they adhere to. It is a very extreme version of Islam, as if Islam has ever been a moderate religion, but their particular brand does not discriminate between nice and not-nice infidels, we are all infidels and valid targets of their particular jihad.


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Skaarjj: Hense the (?) after innocent. I have no idea what he was actually doing over there (though I know the official story), I don't know his exact relationship with either the Iraqi government or our own. Thing is, no one really knows, and those that do aren't willing to talk about it. Too busy trying to deny. Innocent, who knows. It's presumed, and that's what might make some people react.

And I couldn't agree with you more about the blood issue, as I defended in an earlier post in this thread.

For what it's worth, I agreed with Emps' decision to remove the links. Perhaps I should have thought a bit longer on whether it was appropriate or not, but it's (in the end) not that big of a deal. People wanted to see the movie, I knew where it was. My impact was done, links were no longer needed.

njuice42, there are execution photographs on the web that show geysers as a result of beheading. I will not link them here, but if you're interested just let me know.


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DL said:

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As far as the government investigating and issuing "reprimands".....I mean....come on. Reprimands? Is that what we consider to be sufficient in such a case?

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This just in today:

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BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A tearful U.S. soldier was sentenced to a year in jail Wednesday after confessing he and colleagues abused Iraqi prisoners in a scandal that threatens to undermine President Bush's re-election chances.

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"It's a kangaroo court, set up just to placate Iraqis," said Hala Azzawi, mother of one of some 3,000 Iraqis held at the jail near Baghdad, notorious as Sadam Hussein's torture center.

"I wish they would get death, it's less than they deserve."

Full article here

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So we see what one of the soldiers received by way of punishment, a year in jail and a court martial I assume. One of the victim's mothers thinks the death penalty would be letting him off easy. I tend to think the year in jail and court martial are "about right". What do you all think?


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I'm not so sure...what's the normal jail term for sexual abuse and/or grevious assault in the US? these crimes amount to the same thing, so shouldn't the punishment be the same?

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So we see what one of the soldiers received by way of punishment, a year in jail and a court martial I assume. One of the victim's mothers thinks the death penalty would be letting him off easy. I tend to think the year in jail and court martial are "about right". What do you all think?

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People were raped, murdered, and tortured. I'd say a year in jail is a pretty light sentence. If someone raped your mother and then rode her around like a horse, do you think 1 year would be sufficient? I'm honestly curious.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

I have to agree, for the most part.

People were abused in some pretty outrageous ways. If that happened here in the US, there would be pure outrage.

Things are obviously a little different given the full circumstances, but not so much that these people should only get a slap on the wrist.

Of course, I am much more concerned about the people in charge, and I think it is imperative that this gets followed up the chain, and that the punishments get stiffer the further up it goes...

My concern is our image in the outside world. A new poll conducted by the Iraq Center for Research and Strategic Studies shows 9 out of 10 Iraqis see US troops as occupiers and not liberators or peacekeepers. It also shows large support for Moqtada al-Sadr. While Pres. Bush and his supporters talk tough that our image in the outside world doesn't matter, its real difficult to fight a war when 90 of the country doesn't want you there. It seems as though everyone in the world hates the US. I found out a long time ago that if you're standing in a room with lots of people and everyone thinks you're an asshole, you're the asshole.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

I don't think *this* soldier was guilty of murder, at least I don't think that he was charged with that. I actually don't know what the normal penalty is for humiliation and psychological torture. But I do think that this guy was able to get a reduced sentence because he was ratting out some of his cohorts.

I'm not entirely sure this is out of line with what he would get here in the states had it happened here. To take just one example, I just saw in the news that a man that killed a 2 year old child was only given 5 years in prison. That seems light to me.

If any of the soldiers are found guilty of murder then I agree the sentence should be much harsher.

On a side note. Jestah, I have heard this a lot from you, WebShaman, and a few others:

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My concern is our image in the outside world.

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Now of course everyone wants to be liked but there is something about this comment that really bothers me:

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I found out a long time ago that if you're standing in a room with lots of people and everyone thinks you're an asshole, you're the asshole.

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I completely agree that when you have problems in a group and the problem keeps pointing back to one individual that as a rule of thumb that person has the problem. But this is not always the case and what bothers me is that I really don't think you know how to discern the difference. I am not attacking you on this please understand. I am really trying to point out a key difference in our two points of view that I've noticed come up time and time again.

I said quite a while ago when the topic of what the world would think of us if we go to war came up that, it matters more that we are doing what is right than whether people like us. IMO, we should do what we think is right in spite of what others are going to think. I know we are going to disagree on whether going to war was the right thing to do but I would feel much better if I thought you were more interested in doing what was right as opposed to what is popular.


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Bugs: Yes, the main arteries in the neck would most certainly 'gush' blood up into the air, however only if the artery is exposed open in a sudden, quick move. Nick's head was more or less carved off, there was definite sawing movement. So, in my personal opinion, there's no reason blood would exactly gush out in the video. But yeah, there's some gross stuff on that thar internet.

Considering the punishment the soldiers got, while it's dissapointing, is it really all that shocking? C'mon, our troops walked away from this, we'll walk away from just about anything. Goddam sick sometimes.

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I completely agree that when you have problems in a group and the problem keeps pointing back to one individual that as a rule of thumb that person has the problem. But this is not always the case and what bothers me is that I really don't think you know how to discern the difference. I am not attacking you on this please understand. I am really trying to point out a key difference in our two points of view that I've noticed come up time and time again.

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Of course its a key difference, Bugimus. You're the ultimate Bush cheerleader. With all of the political threads that have sprouted since Bush was inaugarated, I don't recall a single time when you even SLIGHTLY thought he made a mistake or was wrong. Even when he was clearly lying about WMD you went as far to say he deserved an apology. I just don't understand this type of mindless support. I'll agree with him when he does something right and disagree with him when he does something wrong. This is a difference between us that will likely never be fixed.

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I said quite a while ago when the topic of what the world would think of us if we go to war came up that, it matters more that we are doing what is right than whether people like us. IMO, we should do what we think is right in spite of what others are going to think. I know we are going to disagree on whether going to war was the right thing to do but I would feel much better if I thought you were more interested in doing what was right as opposed to what is popular.

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Right is a very subjective word. What is right for you is not right for me and is certainly not right for people on the other side of the planet with a completely different lifestyle. As I posted above, a new poll is set to come out stating 9 out of 10 Iraqis believe Americans to be invaders and not liberators. If you turn off Rush Limbaugh and FOXNews for a few minutes you'll realize we're not fighting a war against the Iraqi Army - in fact we've actually allied with them - we're fighting a war against the Iraqi people. With your support, Pres. Bush is attempting to force a lifestyle down their throats. It's a lifestyle they don't want.

As far as popularity goes, how do you expect to get anything done when 90% of the country views the US as invaders? I know you're a big "go it alone" guy, but have you ever given consideration to the fact that we DO have to turn this country over eventually? If 90% of the people in that country abhor us and support al Sadyr, honestly, what do you expect to happen with the politcal structure we're setting up? Are you really under the impression that its going to last more then a year without US military intervention? I just have a hard time believing that anyone who could come off as being so intelligent could be so stupid.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

I asked you once about how many openly conservative professors you had at your college compared to openly liberal. I never got a reply. I have always been under the impression you were the one who was the mindless follower. Care to enlighten me on that? Since I'm already mindless and stupid in your eyes, I don't really have much to lose now do I?

I have always responded to you with a relative amount of courtesy and I don't believe I've ever outright called you stupid, but this is the second time you have attacked me personally. In all candor, I give you a hard time in some of these posts in the hopes of making you *think*. I do that with people from all walks of life. If I'm around a bunch of Xian friends, you will find me playing the devil's advocate and when I'm around a mixed bunch in here I tend to go after those who are politically left wing.


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Explaining Liberal anger.

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First, the liberal imagines that the belief in question is rooted in ignorance. Opponents of the liberal program simply don't know the facts about responsibility and desert. But when liberals try to convey these "facts," they get no uptake. Indeed, they get denial. This leads to the stupidity hypothesis. Opponents of the liberal program aren't so much ignorant of facts as incapable of reasoning from and about them. In other words, they're stupid or unintelligent. They're incapable of thinking clearly or carefully, even about important matters such as equality, justice, and fairness. This explains the liberal mantra that conservatives, such as Presidents Reagan and Bush, are stupid. Note that if conservatives are stupid, liberals, by contrast, are intelligent. It's all very self-serving.

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(Edited by Ramasax on 05-20-2004 09:35)

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I asked you once about how many openly conservative professors you had at your college compared to openly liberal. I never got a reply. I have always been under the impression you were the one who was the mindless follower. Care to enlighten me on that? Since I'm already mindless and stupid in your eyes, I don't really have much to lose now do I?

I have always responded to you with a relative amount of courtesy and I don't believe I've ever outright called you stupid, but this is the second time you have attacked me personally. In all candor, I give you a hard time in some of these posts in the hopes of making you *think*. I do that with people from all walks of life. If I'm around a bunch of Xian friends, you will find me playing the devil's advocate and when I'm around a mixed bunch in here I tend to go after those who are politically left wing.

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So in other words you won't be answering those questions. Gotcha.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

You know I can and usually do

But every time I do it with you

Things begin to smell like poo



Jestah, I will answer answer them, but I would still very much love to hear your answer to the question I have about your profs. How many openly conservative profs do you have compared to openly liberal?


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Q #1. As far as popularity goes, how do you expect to get anything done when 90% of the country views the US as invaders?

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I don't dispute that a majority of Iraqis view us as invaders, in fact, that is precisely what we have done. We have invaded their country. I don't believe for a second the Iraqi people are stupid, and every poll I have heard makes me think they are very astute.

When asked if they view us as invaders, the answer is yes. When asked if they want us to leave the country the answer is no.

How can this be?

They don't want us to become their new masters now that their old master is deposed. But they don't want us to leave them without establishing a secure government to take his place. What they need to understand is that we want exactly the same thing. We wanted Hussein out of the picture and a new Iraq formed that is more democratic, more stable, less likely to be a base of operations against us or our allies, and an example to rest of the Arab world.

Look at all the wars of the last century. You will find that Democracies rarely attacked other Democracies. We believe that world peace is far better served by having more proserous democratic countries than fewer.

As far as how do I expect anything to get done under the current circumstances? I suggest you do some research in exactly what has been achieved so far in Iraq by way of rebuilding schools, hospitals, infrastructure, etc. And also take a look at how many cases there are where our soldiers spend their free time doing this type of work often at risk to their own lives but they do it out of a sense of true friendship to the Iraqi people. So I don't have to point to some imaginary progress but to real progress that has *already* been accomplished.

If you are unaware of these positive stories, then perhaps I'm not the only one you should be recommending to take in a few extra sources of news.

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Q #2. I know you're a big "go it alone" guy, but have you ever given consideration to the fact that we DO have to turn this country over eventually?

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I have said since we began these discussions that we will be there at least 5 years but more probably 10 years. Of course I have considered the fact that we need to get Iraq back under Iraqi control. We have to do it as soon as we possibly can while ensuring it has a high probability of sustaining itself. This is a progressive approach that decreases our control as the new Iraqi government picks up more and this is to be done at steady reasonable rate. If it takes longer to do it right, then I believe are obligated to that task. We owe it to the Iraqi people to see this through and not to abandon them like we've done in several cases before, I'm specifically thinking about my friends just down the street who live in Little Saigon when I point that out.

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Q #3. If 90% of the people in that country abhor us and support al Sadyr, honestly, what do you expect to happen with the politcal structure we're setting up?

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I don't believe your information on this one. al Sadyr is *losing* support right now. Even the Iranians view him as an embarrassment which should really tell you something. He will fail and in a little while, you won't even remember his name and we and the Iraqis will have moved onto more important matters.

As far as the political structure. That is not solely for us to set up. The political and ethnic realities of Iraq were there long before we took down Hussein. It is our job to work the best solution in spite of the political difficutlties we face there, and believe me I am not suggesting they are trivial. There are HUGE hurdles that have to be cleared in this process. I just don't want to cut and run like some are suggesting. I seriously hope that is not your position because if it is, it would seem to me that would indicate you don't care anything about the Iraqi people and their future. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt on that until I hear otherwise from you.

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Q #4. Are you really under the impression that its going to last more then a year without US military intervention?

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See my answer to Q #2.

I've answered your questions, I would very much like an answer to mine.

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Jestah, I will answer answer them, but I would still very much love to hear your answer to the question I have about your profs. How many openly conservative profs do you have compared to openly liberal?

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None. Its department policy for professors to avoid disclosing political affiliations. I have some professors who support the war and I have some who don't. Obviously current events come up in political science courses but the bulk of my courses deal with the actual science of politics. Profs leave the discussion up to the students.

So, none is your answer.

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When asked if they view us as invaders, the answer is yes. When asked if they want us to leave the country the answer is no.

How can this be?

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I don't know how to respond to your replies because we're clearly looking at different polls. All the polls I've been looking at show the vast majority of Iraqis wanting the Americans off Iraqi soil. These same polls show al Sadyr as gaining tons of ground. The article I linked to you above I believe shows approx. 60% of the country supporting him.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Polls? You linked only one. Like I said, most poll(S) I have seen since the war began have a consistent thread which is that they don't like the idea that we're there but they want us to remain until such time that order has been restored. If you've got more than one poll that shows otherwise, then please link.

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An interesting take on the video:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FE22Ak03.html

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Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

I'm know I'm a bit late for this, but please:

If you haven't seen the video and are contemplating whether to watch it or not, DON'T... I considered myself pretty de-sensitized to grue, but the content of this video haunted my mind for a week. Not the gore in particular, but the act of beheading and being decapitated... All I could think of was what must have been going through this poor bastard's mind at the time, and how a human being could do this to another...

If by watching the video I've stopped someone else from seeing it, then you can call me a martyr. Please don't watch it.

"Nothin' like a pro-stabbin' from a pro." -Weadah

It is very disturbing. But it is what a certain group of people would like to do to you and to me. Perhaps people *should* see it to get a better idea of just what we're up against. And to also realize that the argument that we brought this on ourselves makes so much less sense when innocent civilians are treated in this manner.

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A minor interjection:

http://www.talkaboutgovernment.com/group/alt.politics.liberalism/messages/762176.html

And on beheadings:

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Skaarjj:

...there's nothing to make the heart perform the two contractions and numberous valves motions it has to make in order to send a pressurised squirt of blood up the carotid artery to the brain (or the hole now occupying the area). The person who decided to use that for evidence that the video was fake obviously has a) a great love of hollywood films; b) no idea about basic physiology; and c) a very gullible nature.

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Sorry Skaarjj, but Bugimus is correct - beheadings are gruesome and bloody. The heart does not stop pumping immediately (and as is evident in the footage, it took quite some hacking through the throat to remove the head completely, before any nerves were severed - my apologies for such plain speaking).

In fact, beheadings do tend to produce dramatic geysers akin to Hollywood uber-gore. The blood, under pressure and suddenly released in such a manner, can spray as much as six or seven feet from the body - something which Hollywood tends to ignore in cut-throat scenes. In the movies, a quick slice sees the victim drop silently to the ground. In the millitary, they teach you two main methods of cutting a throat (which is actually considered a less than favorable way of killing, simply because it is so damn messy):

Clamping your hand tightly over their mouth (either grounding them, or pulling them off balance)...

1) ...keep sawing until the head is barely attached and the target stops struggling (which they will do for what seems like ages).

or

2) ...insert the blade into the neck, aligned vertically, then twist the balde outwards and forwards, severing everything on the way through. This is a quicker method, but probably even messier.


Not that I've ever slashed somebody's throat, or beheaded a man, but it is considered to be one of the messiest ways to go.

I am in no way suggesting that this film is faked, but if you wish to argue it either way, at least brush up on your own physiological knowledge..!

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In the millitary, they teach you two main methods of cutting a throat (which is actually considered a less than favorable way of killing, simply because it is so damn messy):

Clamping your hand tightly over their mouth (either grounding them, or pulling them off balance)...

1) ...keep sawing until the head is barely attached and the target stops struggling (which they will do for what seems like ages).

or

2) ...insert the blade into the neck, aligned vertically, then twist the balde outwards and forwards, severing everything on the way through. This is a quicker method, but probably even messier.

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Hmmm...these were not the methods I was taught. In fact, it was never taught that one should slit the throat. Instead, one clamps a hand over the mouth, and then one inserts the knife along the spine base of the skull, direct up into the brain. Much less blood, and much, much quicker.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Exactly the point, Webshaman - but when needs must (sometimes, it isn't so easy to get to the back of the skull, and scrambling the brain can be pretty hard with a fit, trained, struggling soldier fighting for his life).

Another quick and less messy method is to clamp your hand over their mouth and insert the blade downwards, behind the collar-bone. Apparently, this is extremely quick and effective...

...but what this has to do with anything, I don't know. The whole point was to high-light how messy even cutting a throat could be (as this is technically what they do in the footage), let alone complete decapitation.

Webshaman - I won't presume one way or the other about your experiences - but perhaps you could shed some light on the issue with your views on the geyser argument?

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-10-2004 14:22)

I believe that certain things do raise some questions regarding the authenticity of the video. I have no doubt that the man was killed. However, I don't think that we are seeing him killed on the video. I think he was already dead before they cut off his head. I do think the video is real, but I don't think that the victim was actually killed on the video.

You see, actually showing the death, would invoke sympathy, and aversion (as the body jerked around in its death throes, possible spurting blood all over, etc). That would defeat the purpose of the video, I think. One has to take into consideration, of who the intended audience was. Many assume it was the West, but I am not so certain. I believe that it was aimed at audiences in the ME. As such, it is important that they show themselves as avenging Sons of God, and not bloodthirsty, inhuman killers.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

I didn't think of that - it's nice to have one's eyes opened to another possibility.

The idea that the video is real, but that he was already dead strikes me as plausible - and it could be one reason why there was so little observable blood.

Having watched the footage, I found it hard to tell quite what was going on - and seeing it, for me, has actually made the arguments more compelling.