Topic awaiting preservation: Iran duped us into invading Iraq? (Page 2 of 2)

Actualy Emps I had a massive essay prepared for you but Im not going to post it, cos you will delete it anyway.. cos I think you are afraid of free thought!!! and my maverick thinking.. I don't want to destabalise your comfort zone. chicken ass..

QUOTATION: Those who live by the sword.. get shot by those who don't..

[edit]accidental double post deleted[/edit]

(Edited by Xpirex on 05-27-2004 01:32)

Oh get over yourself

You have a very overinflated sense of your impact here if you truly feel that way...



Anyway, back on topic: I have no doubt that Chalabi has played the US a bit. I also have no doubt that the people in charge beleived what they wanted to beleive, and used the information they wanted to present things the way they felt would allow them to go to war.

All this really does is explain a little bit of teh back story, as far as I'm concerned.

Xpirex: And you extrapolate this from my deleting an Eminem quote from your posting? Fascinating. I have a couch you can pop up onto and tell me all about it (I promise it isn't wired to the mains).

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Emps

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ok Emps..
..at the risk of derailing the topic for a few more seconds I have to say that I am not going to go through that door you mentioned. I refuse to quit this place.. and bail out, as he offered as an option.. for if I ever would desert this place.. I would be deprived of one of the best dam places on the planet for graphics and web design knowledge and general artistry in visual alchemy.

The "philosophy and silliness" department is but a small portion of this whole OZONE site and it would be just plain foolish to relinquish the 90% of sheer self-expanding, skill imbuing material for the 10% of emotional and unhealthy impractical effervescent emotional outbursts that produce little learning and no joy.. So Emps... I'm gonna behave and obey the law for the greater good (mine and the worlds) I'll try to comprehend the waves and swells of opinion and consensus of you dudes that inhabit this brown and orange interface and just hold my dam tongue in matters that I cannot embrace or that do not weave into my accursed humanistic fabric.

Nah man you ain't temptin' me to quit.. No way.

DL-44: I have no choice but to see my experience of the world from my own eyes and centre and not yours or anyone else's... I have to be me.. what ever that entails. My intention is never to be a pain in the ass, I hope you bloody know that, so it's never really personal. I'd easily buy you all a beer in the street.




(Edited by Xpirex on 05-27-2004 02:36)

~shrug~

Can we get back to the subject in hand now?

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Emps

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After X buys us all a beer. You were serious about that weren't you?

Yes, back to the topic.

I am still working on the facts of this one. I've been hearing a lot of chatter about this in the media and it would seem as though Iran may have indeed played a key role in some misinformation. They might even get an award for it if awards are given for such successful disinformation campaigns. But seriously I'm still trying to sort this all out.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

That story is astonoshing to say the least. How could an intelligence service trust the informations coming from a country who have been in war against Iraq ? Even a child would have some serious doubts about that source of information and would search some reliable ones. Damn! It sounds so amateurish ... and we're talking about the intelligence services of the country with the biggest power of destruction.

quote:

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Bugimus said:
They might even get an award for it if awards are given for such successful disinformation campaigns

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Well, we'll see in november if some awards are given for disinformation campaigns. did I really thought that aloud ?



(Edited by poi on 05-27-2004 04:47)

poi, I think the better question is why the Bush Administration would choose to rely mainly on a man convicted of fraud in deciding to go to war.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

There is a very long history of the use of double agents nad misinformation (e.g. the agent 'Garbo' in the run up to operation OVERLORD) - in some ways you'd think security services would keep a watchful eye for this kind of thing. I suppose it goes back to what I said in that the most effective lies are ones that tell us things we want to hear and this fits in with the wider picture of a very uncritical examination of intelligence when it was telling us things we needed to hear. i thought the end of one of those articles was interesting that it is possible the Iranians didn't mean it go this far but it might just have been part of a plan to get Saddam off their backs for a while.

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Emps

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This is an alternative timeline for all you conspiracy lovers out there:

Western politicians avoid getting involved in a war in Iraq and struggle for a peaceful solution to a fast-growing problem. They fail even to slow the impending (and inevitable) threat that looms over us all. Your belief systems and way-of-life are erradicated in a way reminiscent of the Christian crusades of a forgotten time, and replaced by a religious monopoly that hasn't changed since the dark ages. Your grandchildren grow up in a world ruled by extreme and brutal fundamentalist regimes.

I'm sure that a pre-emptive war on Hitler's Germany (in an attempt to avoid the big one)would have made Churchill and Roosevelt pretty unpopular.

Petroil issues aside (which is becoming a jaded argument IMHO), I have gradually begun to understand why this littel war has been necessary from the very beginning - despite finding the manner in which the whole thing was conducted both sloppy and ambiguous.

It seems to me however, that all hope has been lost. We are too late to stop the inevitable. A new Dark Age comes.

The End Is Nigh!

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Seek not truth with deceitful intent...
...for that way lies the seed of dissent.[i]

Yes, White Hawk...the long awaited "Aboriginal Holy War" has begun! Embrace the Dreamtime, or perish!

After all, Life is but a Dream...beware Awakening!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

thought you'd like that. lol

_______________________________

Seek not truth with deceitful intent...
...for that way lies the seed of dissent.
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It appears that the usual intelligence servcies wouldn't touch Chalabi with a bargepole so a different system was cobbled together:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1225600,00.html

It is also interesting to see the the NYT has launched an internal inquiry into why it supported the pro-war line so uncritically:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1225507,00.html

___________________
Emps

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From The Bush orthodoxy is in shreds

quote:

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The CIA and other US agencies had long ago decided that Chalabi was a charlatan, so their dismissive and correct analysis of his lies prompted their suppression by the Bush White House.

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There you go, Ramasax - as I told you...the President and his Administration are ultimately responsible for applying the filters, etc in the Intelligence gathering system. No conspiricies here - this is how the system actually works. However considering this

quote:

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In place of the normal channels of intelligence vetting, a jerry-rigged system was hastily constructed, running from the office of the vice president to the newly created Office of Special Plans inside the Pentagon, staffed by fervent neocons. CIA director George Tenet, possessed with the survival instinct of the inveterate staffer, ceased protecting the sanctity of his agency and cast in his lot. Secretary of state Colin Powell, resistant internally but overcome, decided to become the most ardent champion, unveiling a series of neatly manufactured lies before the UN.

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it would seem, that the Bush Administration sought to get around the normal channels and filters of intelligence, because they were just not giving the required (expected) results. I could then see the Intelligence communities reaction to such - it would not be a happy reaction.

This is just poetry

quote:

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Washington, just weeks ago in the grip of neoconservative orthodoxy, absolute belief in Bush's inevitability and righteousness, is in the throes of being ripped apart by investigations. Things fall apart: the military, loyal and lumbering, betrayed and embittered; the general in the field, General Sanchez, disgraced and cashiered; the intelligence agencies abused and angry, their retired operatives plying their craft with the press corps, seeping dangerous truths; the press, hesitating and wobbly, investigating its own falsehoods; the neocons, publicly redoubling defence of their hero and deceiver Chalabi, privately squabbling, anxiously awaiting the footsteps of FBI agents; Colin Powell, once the most acclaimed man in America, embarked on an endless quest to restore his reputation, damaged above all by his failure of nerve; everyone in the line of fire motioning toward the chain of command, spiralling upwards and sideways, until the finger pointing in a phalanx is directed at the hollow crown.

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The one question I don't see being asked is, Chalabi was the Neocon favorite to leading a post war Iraq...and if he really was an Iranian double agent, then a real near catastrophy was avoided i.e. that Iran would be pushing the buttons in Iraq, not the US! (through their agent leading Iraq, Chalabi!) If this had not been leaked by the Intelligence Agency...and followed up...if Mr. Bush had got his way...

Thanks for posting that, Emps.

That about the NYT is only just...I hope they go much further than they have, so far. Their credibility is at stake here - something absolutely vital to such a newspaper, and information source. I personally believe that their reputation and credibility has been damaged by this (and other scandals, recently) beyond repair.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

And some more stuff on the massive shortfall in the intelligence gathering and news reporting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1227399,00.html

although clearly the problem at the top of the chain - they clearly knew that the newspaper reports they were promoting came from one source and then they confirm a story based on the same source the story is using. That is either major league incompetence or something more sinister.

And who are we replacing Chalabi with? Not the guy who sold us the lies about he 45 minute readiness of the WMDs? Well yes:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=526008

[edit: And it doesn't seem like a popular choice:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1227866,00.html ]

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Emps

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-30-2004 13:26)