Topic awaiting preservation: Iran duped us into invading Iraq? (Page 1 of 2)

The implications of this are pretty shocking:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1224075,00.html

I suppose it should be no suprise that various parties were wroking to various ends here but........

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Emps

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I don't buy this shit...

now it sounds too much like some Metal Gear Solid conspiracy heh...

I double InI on this one...

quote:

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When do we come to the part Brits and Americans use their common sense, everything that's bright in them,
pull their heads out of their assses and get those war criminals

---

Now InI this will only happen after we send Arnold Swarzenegger on solo commando mission, after he will kill every Arab and destroy half of the country. Then all the FBI, CIA, Navy, Marines, Army, Airforce will arrive at once and arrest everyone...does this make a good seventh episode?

(Edited by Ruski on 05-25-2004 15:32)

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Can any of this be taken seriously anymore? Maybe it's time that time in history where we get a few suprise and specific assasinations.

...or to coin a phrase from Eminem

[Emp edit: No lets not]

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-25-2004 15:53)

(Edited by Emperor on 05-25-2004 16:58)

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Interesting information Emps. Thanks for posting it.

If true, it is a whopper, no doubt about it. I tend to think that it would be partially true...that the mis-information would have swayed a few, yes. But normally there are "checks and balances" in the information gathering and distribution system, that overcome such unless the filters that control the data flow of information are tuned to one particular direction - and these filters get implimented ultimately from the express direction of a President and his Administration.

That, of course, would suggest that Mr. Bush and his Administration let themselves be mis-informed, because of their narrow view. Assuming that the above is true (that Iran did manipulate the US through mis-information), then it was only possible, due to a narrow view implimented through the President and his Administration.

I always maintained, that Iran and North Korea pose greater threats to the US than Iraq did...if the article is true, then at least that supports that Iran is truly more dangerous to the US, than Iraq was.

And this Seoul concerned about North's nuke sale
supports that North Korea is more dangerous than Iraq was.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-25-2004 16:56)

WS: Those are my thoughts exactly - it appears that we wanted to believe the lie and so we were less critical in evaluating the information. I also believe that Chalabi was a good friend of Dick Cheney which I can't imagine helps.

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Emps

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Yeh, I know InI your right.. I just couldn't help myself.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )

HEY! maybe we should really start another war on...Iran? I mean after all, it's a border away! So close! YAY!!! And then we can blame Nort Korea for supplying Iran with missles (if we do not find any, we can always bring some, and stamp communist logos on them) .

InI, Mudler will be in episode 8, he will discover that caputed Mr.Saddam doesn't has genitals and will try to attempt to uncover the mystery, but then right away Saggy and Scooby will come into scene and will remove the mask of a man know as Saddam and we will have Mr. Bush Sr.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
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I see some in here have been infected too.. very interesting in deed. Where are you getting your orders from? But it's ok for you (Emps) to post links were sexually excplicit content is present I see. I see many posts where people use what would be termed as bad/strong language... and you delete and Eminem quote?!!! Have you gone through all those and cleaned them up to with your new back to basics attitude? So you are the new police here. I'll keep that in mind. Bloody hypocritical if you ask me. Who are you trying to protect? The kids you say? Then why don't you delete every post in here that relates to nutty and dangerous poilitical ideas, psycho religeous opinions and out right demonic thinking that could easily poison the minds of the fragile. Or is it all permissable because it is penned so pretilly and worded with pleasant articulation?.

Let me know the standard.. and then make sure it's enforced all across the board.. not just where it seems to suit you.

QUOTATION: Those who live by the sword.. get shot by those who don't..



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-25-2004 18:14)

Actually Ruski, we don't really need a reason to do North Korea in...we are technically still at war with North Korea. We have a cease fire agreement, that is all.

As for Iran...well, if the above is true, combined with their Nuclear ambitions, and direct support of various terrorist groups, I do believe that it would have been a much better idea to have done them first, before Iraq. It would have made Iraq much, much easier...assault Iraq from two sides, if a war would have been even necessary after doing Iran.

Oh well...that clearly did not happen.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

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Duped? Thats the most asinine thing I've ever heard out of this war yet. We KNOWINGLY relied on statemens made from a man wanted in several states for fraud that was in direct conflict with our own intelligence. Now we're claiming we were duped?

Its time for Conservatives to call a spade a spade. Unfortunately, the reality is they'll turn a blind eye to this.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Actually, I am in Favor of doing North Korea, and then applying huge pressure, militarily, if necessary, on Iran. I was never really for Iraq...I just didn't see it as being a threat. And the way that Mr. Bush and his Administration has handled the Iraq thing, is...I lack words, to put it into prospective. Disasterous comes close.

Both North Korea, and Iran, have Nuclear Programs and a desire to either build Nuclear Weapons, or already have. North Korea may have gone so far, as to actually sell Nuclear Technology - that is still being investigated (to Libya).

This shows that both countries, are more than capable of giving nuclear weapons to terrorists - Iran, in that they support many different Terrorist organizations in the region, and North Korea, through the Nuclear Black market.

As to why? Well, North Korea has been a "flash point" for a long time, now. Just ask Suho. It is time to put an end to it, once and for all. That regime has to go - it is really deadly to its own people, and is willing to actually sell nuclear material on the black market, so it seems.

As for Iran, it has been radically against the US since the downfall of the Shaw. It has ties with most of the terrorist organisations in the area, and provides massive funding for them. They have an ambitious nuclear program, and got caught by the IAA with their pants down, so to speak...a dismantling of the nuclear program, and a cessation of support for the terrorist organizations must be acheived, IMHO. I do not believe that Iran will do this free of will, thus militarily. If a military confrontation can be avoided while attaining the above goals, then good. I am not a warmonger, in that sense.

We all know, what the world is dreading, what the next "escalation" is, in world terrorism - the first Nuclear bomb explosion from a terrorist group. I believe it is in the best interests of everyone, to try to prevent this for as long as possible.

I am quite frankly, surprised by your reaction, because I have made no secret of my opinions regarding North Korea and Iran (and Iraq, for that matter).

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

..and maybe some others need doing too...



QUOTATION: Those who live by the sword.. get shot by those who don't..



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-25-2004 21:42)

X, can you please tell me what lies behind door #3?

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

Now you have me intrigued Bugs.. what is door #3?

QUOTATION: Those who live by the sword.. get shot by those who don't..



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-25-2004 23:50)

Xpirex:

quote:

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I see some in here have been infected too.. very interesting in deed. Where are you getting your orders from? But it's ok for you (Emps) to post links were sexually excplicit content is present I see. I see many posts where people use what would be termed as bad/strong language... and you delete and Eminem quote?!!! Have you gone through all those and cleaned them up to with your new back to basics attitude? So you are the new police here. I'll keep that in mind. Bloody hypocritical if you ask me. Who are you trying to protect? The kids you say? Then why don't you delete every post in here that relates to nutty and dangerous poilitical ideas, psycho religeous opinions and out right demonic thinking that could easily poison the minds of the fragile. Or is it all permissable because it is penned so pretilly and worded with pleasant articulation?.

Let me know the standard.. and then make sure it's enforced all across the board.. not just where it seems to suit you.

---

Get a grip - if you've got a problem with my actions then you are welcome to bring it up but please use specific examples rather than innuendo.

___________________
Emps

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As you can see, "specific" is not a term xpi seems to be familiar with.

It seems it is in fact much easier to simply make vague generalizations than it is to have an indepth discussion involving any sort of specific facts or concepts.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

For example:

quote:

---

Emperor
Maniac (VI) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001
posted 05-14-2004 20:05

More developemts (warning contains discussion of sexually explicit material):

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm

How low is this going to go?

___________________
Emps

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quote:

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Emperor
Maniac (VI) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001
posted 05-17-2004 13:41

I'm in a quandry as we made krets take down the link to the Daniel Pearl video and I'm unsure why this should be any different. However, it may b an important moment in history so...........

In the meanime I have removed the link from njuice's post as it was to a site with strong adult content.

[edit: And yes I watched it - I suppose we shouldn't back away from such things. I'm not sure it really told me anything I didn't already know.]

[edit2: Both links removed - they go way beyond the general Asylum remit of keeping the Asylum child friendly. If you want the links Google them or Q me.]

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There are swear words all over the Asylum.. Why did you delete the Eminem quote? ..and as regards specifics, there are some pretty dodgy posts all over the Asylum.. too many to list. I just want to know the standards that you are now enforcing.

How is your first post Child friendly? Make your mind up mate..

QUOTATION: Those who live by the sword.. get shot by those who don't..



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-26-2004 12:52)

Xpirex: Thats your evidence?

That link was to a news story about the prion scandal which by its very nature discusses strong content so I thought it worth a warning. The guidelines on posting adult material refer to actual pornography and extreme material.

I'm not sure what you are getting at with the second post - njuice linked to a site hosting hardcore pornography and violence so had to be removed. I removed both links eventually as we had set a precedent with the Daniel Pearl video earlier.

I removed the quote not just because of the swearing but the general tone.

To get things straight there are no strict set of rules just guidelines which we Mad Sci interpret - different mad Scis might interpret them differently but thems the breaks and I'd rather have ot that way round than some tightly defined set of rules.

If you don't like it you know where the door is.

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Emps

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You'd just like that wouldn't you..

[edit]removed general tone[/edit]

QUOTATION: Those who live by the sword.. get shot by those who don't..

Well Ini, I'm really not sure about Mr. Bush's motive(s)...I'm not sure if anyone is (even himself). That is one reason why I find it hard to believe anything he says. Also, the enormous amount of incompetence has reached a scale so massive, that quite frankly, it far outstretches my ability to describe it in words.

His record on the "truth" is also...well, a matter of history, now.

Is it all about Oil? Well, I'm sure in certain circles in Texas, it really is. I'm also certain, in other certain neo-conservative circles, it's about control (and Oil is a great part of that). I'm also very certain, that in some circles, it really is a vested interest in self-preservation, and a perceived threat of an atomic terroristic attack.

As one can see of late, Oil is a very important part of the World Economy...and fluxuations in base price have far-reaching consequences. Personally, I'm not exactly sure where this is heading...but rapidly decreasing supply and rapidly increasing demand, does seem to indicate a clash sometime in the near future, of some sort, unless things change dramatically in the energy sector (alternative energy sources).

Of course, this has absolutely nothing to do with North Korea (Oil, anyway), and neither does Iran, directly. I'm more in the "self-preservation, and a perceived threat of an atomic terroristic attack" camp - get rid of possible sources of obtainable nukes, and reduce the threat (the chance) of Al Qaida, or a splinter group, from obtaining a Nuclear Weapon. In the first line of defense, is the limiting of Nuclear weapon access.

Were North Korea and Iran both to show responsibility and restraint (or not have nukes, or an aggressive program to develope them), I would not tend to consider them as "possible sources of obtainable nukes", and would not consider them a danger, in any respects, other than what they are, sworn foes of the US.

I think the US, and the world, have been very reasonable, and patient with these two countries. Though I can understand part of Iran's malice to the US (because of things that happened during the Cold War and now Iraq), Iran's funding (and guiding) of terrorist organisations has grown out of Iran's control (IMHO). Many of these once small groups have grown into international organisations. Al Qaida is just one of these.

I tend to find the actions against Iraq puzzling, when compared with the above considerations. I know that the "domino effect" has been used as a flimsy excuse for Iraq...but history shows, that the "domino effect" has never really worked, especially not for Democracy. As for the concerns about Oil, Iraq may have huge reserves of easy to reach oil, but under the circumstances, I don't see this oil being available for a long time to come on any big scale. As for the Business Cash-in, I just don't see it happening, for anyone except for a few companies (like Haliburton) - more, I see this endeavor costing the US more, and more, and more!

So, quite frankly, I am not sure what to make of Iraq. Has it prevented Iran from continuing it's pursuit of Nuclear Weapons (if they don't already have them?) - no, it has not. Has Iran grown "friendlier" to US interests? No, it has clearly not (and quite frankly, with recent events in Israel and Iraq, I do find it rather difficult to blame them). Syria has also not grown "friendlier" to US interests - and currently is either being hit with sanctions, or it is being discussed.

And the negotiations with North Korea? Well, they have never kept their word in any negotiations before, why should they this time? They have repeatedly violated the Cease Fire Agreement, and have repeatedly violated other agreements, as well. And should the investigation into the selling of Nuclear material on the Nuclear Black Market from North Korea show that it has indeed sold such material, then I think that there is no other alternative, but to use Military means, to prevent further sales.

These are my thinkings and opinions on the subject. I'm sure that they will not in the least bit change current events. If I thought that Iran and North Korea would honor any agreement to actually desist and disable their Nuclear Programs (and actually did so), then I would support other means of achieving that goal.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

quote:

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Xpirex said:

You'd just like that wouldn't you..

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I'm afraid to say I'm pretty indifferent on the subject. I can't imagine I'd lose any sleep over it

___________________
Emps

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The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Ini - what emperor said is in no way a threat. It is a very simple statement that, if you don't like it here, nobody is forcing you to stay.

It's a message we've tried to make clear since the very first days of teh asylum.

Things are done a certian way here.

Every single member is free to not come back if they find that way unacceptable.

It really is that simple.

Ini,

quote:

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Problem is: the context. New massive military manouvers from the US would, probably will cause havoc.
About WBush not knowing what he does, he should know what he risks and which forces he is playing with at least.

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I couldn't agree with you more. I also do NOT trust Mr. Bush's (nor his Administration's)c ompetence in dealing with Iran or North Korea militarily (or in any regards, actually).

My point of view of these two Nations comes from the observance of events, my experiences, and world history. I formulated this before the attack on Iraq. However, with the amount of incompetence demonstrated by Mr. Bush and his Administration, I am now glad, that this has never happened. I quite frankly, do not trust Mr. Bush and his Administration to competently do the job. And now, in the wake of things, I fear that you are entirely correct, and within your right, to suggest that new, massive military manouvers from the US would probably cause havoc under Mr. Bush and his Administration!

I sincerely doubt, that ANY coalition would support the US in endeavors in NK or Iran.

As such, any operation, militarily, would most probably then be doomed to failure.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

InI: Basically what DL said - we have used that phrase hundreds of times. There is a near infinite variety of forums out there so if one doesn't suit you then you can always find another one that fits your needs (and if you can't find one then the problem possibly lies closer to home). If there were a lot of legitimate complaints about my conduct here then I would hand in my badge without hesitation if one or two people complain then we can discuss them on their merits. As I've said a lot of things are a judgement call - I'd remove that Eminem quote again perhaps other mods might not but thats their call too.

Although I'm not sure its worth discussing further your analogy falls down in a few places:

1. As said above I wasn't throwing anyone out.

2. I have thrown people out of the Asylum and reserve the right to do so in the future if the occasion called for it.

[edit: To clarify as some people seem to have misunderstood this bit:

There has been some misperception in the past that we dont don't ban people form the Asylum - we have done and will probably have to do so in the future. This incident being discussed has nothing at all to do with banning anyone. As far as I can tell - I don't which to speak for anyone else on this matter so it has to be kept in the first person.]

3. I have thrown people out of other people's houses and out of pubs and clubs - I was either explicitly asked to or people trusted my judgement and I've only ever been thanked for my prompt action. I was asked to work the door to a local music festival the other weekend because people still trust my judgement. I'm level headed and try not to let emotion cloud my decision making.

I hope that clears up matters.

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Emps

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-26-2004 19:12)

Yes Emps, but would you press this button here? Don't mind the screams...just ignore them. Hey, I'll even pay you some money, depending on how many times you press the button!

Go on...just press the button...that's it! Yup, just press it! No, don't think, press! Press, press, press!



WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
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Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

WS: Thanks for the impromtu Milgram experiment

InI: It was a statement of fact nothing more nothing less - you would need to know me better to release how way of your assessment of me is (so far off its amusing ).

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Emps

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The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Np. Though it has nothing on Master Suho, up in the tower...hehe.

Remember, in a certain thread...it was mentioned that someone would be thrown from the heights, but only after Master Suho got to have his "fun" with him...



WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

quote:

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InI said:

What, the quiet and polite part? At least, I know you're a hairy robe wearing imperial madman.

---

I'm many things to many people.

[edit: Which, I must add, includes being an asshole - I just wasn't being one above ]

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Emps

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(Edited by Emperor on 05-26-2004 16:31)

And as this thread seems in danger of going completely off the rails here is some more discussion on the topic of Iran and our invasion of Iraq:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,1224617,00.html

and the fact that he was boasting of his Iranian links in 1997:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1224717,00.html

___________________
Emps

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Well, the evidence does seem to be pointing in direction of him being a spy...of that, we can be certain. Was/is he also a spy for Iran? Now that is the crucial element, isn't it? Becasue if he was/is, then we can be fairly sure, that there was then, indeed, manipulation from Iran involved.

I personally think he just "played" the fences, and probably got paid very well, from all sides, doing just that.

I also don't think that Iran manipulated the US into a war...but probably contributed to it.

Anyway, interesting articles. Thanks for posting, Emps.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page