Topic: The fucking difference between cursing and and calling someone a whore. [Xpirex] (Page 1 of 2)

Let's get this straight.
There is a world of difference between using a 'bad word' as a verb or an amplifier and going out and calling someone a something without it being a joke.

And this is what this whole Xpirex Affair is all about.

1. Is it O.K. to insult someone in a way that would be reason for a lawsuit in some western countries?
2. Is it O.K. to use some bad words that some people think you shouldn't use?
3. Is there a difference between cursing in english and cursing in another Language?

My answer is:
-No
-Yes
-There's quite a difference - or have you lived at least 2 years in a place where Hebrew is the native tongue and *know* instinctivly wether any cussing is appropriate for the situation at hand? I have lived 10 months in the states - and the one time I said fuck (after 6 fucking months) - it turned out to be the wrong time and place and I got in a bit of trouble. Something might translate as something - but that does not mean the insult to have the same strength. Heck, there isn't even an insult for 'bitch' in German.

Now, we may argue about 1 and 2, and wether Xpirex actions did fall under 1. 3 is an interesting topic of discussion, but not strictly relevant at hand.


The Doc is away, and while he as the owner of this site could decide to take on the risk of being sued - we can't take this risk on for him - which is why Xpirex has been temporarly banned. In which light I see Emperor's first reaction as correct.
But now it's time to clear this mess up and lay out the rules under which we, the Mad Scientist whom Doc entrusted this place to, want to handle such cases in the future - wether it be by solitary action, by tribunal, by democratic vote, or by a feudal strategy.

Therefore, post your thoughts on this, on wether 1. is a reason for being banned temporarily and on how we should proceed about this.

so long,
Tyberius Prime

PS: Xpirex - feel free to send anything you wish to post in here to my email address, and I'll post it word for word.

This whole scenario is funny.
Perhaps at some point I'll begin to actually laugh about it.
On the other hand... perhaps I won't.

I'll start this off by saying... "Hi... been a while, hasn't it?"
I don't really post here anymore for a gajillion reasons that I'm not here to talk about right now.
While I don't even visit all that often --- when I do visit, I do my homework and see what's happening and for the most part get caught up with recent events.
I've been a member first and a moderator second for years around here.... and I must say this is one of the most fucked instances of group stupidity that I've come across in a long time.

Before I get too far off on 50 tangents that I'd really like to take, I'll reply directly to TP's post.
In all honesty, I'm rather surprised this has yet to be responded to.

1. Is it O.K. to insult someone in a way that would be reason for a lawsuit in some western countries?
----- What?
It's entirely possible that I'm sheltered and uneducated on the illegalities of word usage in forums on the internet... but my question is... when did all this come into the situation?
The fact that you're asking for everyone's opinion on this entire matter and that most haven't a clue what was actually said or the level of hate normally associated with such remarks in its own language really doesn't level the playing field for this entire situation, sorry to say. (I realize you offered up translation via email... but that does not/will not express the latter portion what I just said)
The topic of this thread is: "The fucking difference between cursing and and calling someone a whore."
So... are what are we talking about? -- illegalities or moralities? While the two may cross at some point in space.... I don't see them intersecting here.
Do to my own ignorance... I'll have to defer to:
If something is illegal... it needs not happen here. I, like every other person here, wouldn't want Doc getting hemmed up on account of our own stupidites.
So... now that I've spoken for everyone in the Asylum by saying that; we can scratch that off the list of undertones (and overtones) that were spun into your post, TP.
However, if "lawsuit" here is just being used idly to sugar coat this scenario... and isn't exactly the truth (from everyone's point of view)... I hope there's a lot of pissed of people reading in the Asylum right now.
To go along with that -- (I've done it before, as many have) -- twisting perspectives slightly for your own argumentative benefit can continue to combat my line of thinking.... and I might as well bring it out now.

If we *really* want to split hairs and talk about what's legal and what's illegal on these forums in specific countries -- let's imagine a country that doesn't allow written word against their own government. (and this is a "for instance".. completely hypothetical situation not even based on truths to my knowledge)
Again, I'm an uneducated sumbitch, but I'd imagine some of the political (or religous- for other countries) debates and topics that go on here could potentially borderline (or cross) the legalities of topics allowed by such governments. If you don't think it's happened in the past -- what would you do in the future? Say a new member from country X comes in here and begins to discuss why the current country's government needs to be overthrown and replaced with blah blah. Are we going to ban them?.... lock threads?.. warn them? Set up contingency plans in case of crazy influx of country X's inmates?
My guess would be no.

2. Is it O.K. to use some bad words that some people think you shouldn't use?
----- Yes.
This is rather obvious... and frankly, from my perspective, this entire topic revolves around this one question.
I imagine 95% or more of people here would agree.

3. Is there a difference between cursing in english and cursing in another Language?
----- Yes.
One I understand... the other I don't. =)
The real question here really being---------- should the actions be treated differently?
To that, I say no.
While I think it's about as high on the rude/insult/assinine scale that you can possibly go.... I don't see a reason for it to be treated any differently. This is just a sub-topic of #2 in my eyes.


Now for this:
"Therefore, post your thoughts on this, on wether 1. is a reason for being banned temporarily and on how we should proceed about this."
I'll re-state #1 for the readers:
1. Is it O.K. to insult someone in a way that would be reason for a lawsuit in some western countries?
Well.. that's pretty interesting...
How is the mob supposed to know what is and isn't allowed in all other countries?
What are you really getting at here.... no insults of any kind? Everyone play nice and pretend to like each other? If that's the case... then to be blunt, just fucking say it and stop being a weasly bitch.

I'm sure that got your attention as well as everyone else's, TP.
A prime example of me expressing myself.. but not knowing what the hell that could translate to in Ingunfuckstickasaurus (the spoken word of fuckstick's all over the planet). It doesn't seem overly harsh for the occassion from my perspective.... but perhaps it does to some 'Ingun' somewhere on the other side of the world.
So how do these things normally work themselves out?
The Ingun comes back and flames the livin' piss out of me right here in this thread hooting and hollaring... calling me every name under the sun.
What happens then?
I pimp slap them with some wordage of my own.... and 'round and 'round we go.
Does it end? Yes... always has.
Sometimes people just let up right away -- other times the two individuals (or more) work it out and realize they had a little misunderstanding because they were pissed -- and other times a moderator steps in, closes the thread and waits for it to crop up again elsewhere.
Arguments sometimes carry over from thread to thread or month to month... but they start up for a bit... then they go away. It happens all the damn time.
It sucks that good threads are ruined and people have to wade through all the crap to find posts of substance -- but it's going to happen.
This forum has pretty much always been a place where you could speak freely in just about any manner you felt you needed to in order to get your point across.
On occassion people need to be reminded that there are a lot of young members that read what's going on here and perhaps certain things shouldn't be accepted.... or reminded of some other little tid-bit that is of importance to the greater population.

Now I'm going to meander a bit... because I didn't actually get to reply to the thread in question...
My overall opinon... directly to the point:
Banning Xpirex is/was not the "correct" course of action.
I also think the ban should be lifted immidiately.
Normally little outbreaks like this come in steps.
Person A pisses B off.
B says something mean.
A says something nasty.
B says something worse....
And it continues.
Lacuna's remark was about a 1 on a scale of 1-10.
I'd say Xpirex skipped all levels inbetween and jumped right to a 9.
That doesn't happen all that often, so it got everyone's attention in a hurry. On most occassions things get snubbed at around 5, I'd say........ and the really good arguments get up to an 8.
All that being said, I do think an apology is in order... but that falls into my 'personal opinion' realm yet again.

For those of you that have been here for a while, you know I've been in some large arguments at one point or another. I've skipped steps... I've baited people to name-calling... and I've certainly done my fair share of it as well. I don't recall ever being banned.... or threatened with it either.
To be completely honest, I enjoyed some of the arguments that would crop up. A lot of online communities get a little hostile from time to time... it's part of their life cycle. An outbreak of flame wars kick off... people cry about how the community isn't what it used to be... individuals threaten to leave forever... new members whine publicly while wondering if the forum can live without posters that have become the pillars of the community.
For fuck sake, let it happen.

I'm all for a fight breaking out....
let the people go at it if they want for a few rounds a piece. If It gets too nasty.... shut down the thread with a warning about startin up a new one... state why it needs to stop... tell them to take it to email... and then go about your business.
It'd be a waste to point fingers over this whole issue. Anyone who thinks being a moderator over situations like this is easy, is a dumbass and probably hasn't been in this position before.
I think there's been a lot of harm done... but I think everyone here is more than adult enough to press on and put this one behind.
I understand everyone's actions and I think they were just in everyone's own right.


Okay.. I've got a shedload more to say about this whole thing... but I've babbled long enough.. I've lost my place with mental notes... and I'm tired and ready to go back into asylum hibernation.

Just a couple of quickies before I go...
1. I thought it was odd that this thread title had "fucking" in it. Even with my variety-driven use of the word, I've always thought it was much wiser to leave swears out of thread titles.
2. I agree with Krets' statements in the original thread.
3. In response to this bit: "Xpirex can get his account back - if lacuna, the one he personally insulted and harrased, accepts his apologies"
- Get fucked. That's just outrageous.

On one hand I've been a fan of Doc's "never ban anyone" approach. It was an important quality of this community which kept it different from other communities around the internet.

On the other hand, there have been times when I've thought banning was necessary. Most of those times have involved people who continually (over and over and over) started new threads because they thought that their threads being locked or deleted was "censorship." I thought they should have been banned only because they were making it impossible for the community to function normally.

There are people who have used strong language and even insults here in the past. I've often strongly disagreed with their approaches, but usually let it go because I knew that it wouldn't really matter one or two days later.

I've been here since day one. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone use as strong of an insult as Xpirex did. But I don't know that I haven't, either. I've definitely seen insults, some by respected members.

The reason I asked for the translation of Xpirex's comments was, honestly, that I wasn't sure whether they were really deserving of a ban. Once I learned the meaning, I didn't mind so much. Those are heavy words.

Nonetheless, I have to admit that, a couple years ago, he would not have been banned for saying things like that. Undoubtedly it would have sparked a flame war, but that would probably have been contained to the single thread. Comments would be made such as "take it to email," and it may or may not have been. But in the long run, I think everyone would have been fine.

Since we have different cultures, age groups, and backgrounds here, it's not unsurprising that some people would say things that they think are simple insults, or even teasing, while other people would take it as a reason for banning. I don't know how serious Xpirex thought his (her?) comments were, but I doubt he meant them to be taken as seriously as they were.

Let me make an important point: The words Xpirex used were only slightly stronger than the ones Lacuna provoked him with. The primary difference was in *how* he used them (as adjectives towards Lacuna). I'm not sure if this was an obvious difference to Xpirex at the time he made the comments.

Xpirex's comments were out of line and he obviously made no effort to control himself. I am surprised that he wasn't willing to apologize for them. I suspect that the only reason he hasn't is that he's angry about being banned. I would advise him to distinguish between apologizing for what he said and admitting that he should have been banned for it. After all, he said some pretty insulting things.

I should also say that I hadn't noticed any similar comments by him in the past. I suppose I haven't been paying enough attention.

With all that in mind, my conclusion is that I don't really think he should have been banned outright for his comments. He has been a member for some time now and has contributed at least a little, and this doesn't seem like something that couldn't have been worked out.

At the same time, now that he *has* been banned, and conditions (in my opinion, fair ones) set forth for his unbanning, I think we should stick to our guns. I encourage Xpirex to apologize for Lacuna for what he said; though it was slightly provoked, Lacuna did not deserve insults like that. And if he apologizes honestly, I would hope Lacuna would accept it.

Finally, I would like to see a little more restraint in the future regarding banning members. It's a dangerous thing to get into, especially considering how easy it is for someone to fake their IP, register new names, and wreak havoc. I think maybe we acted a little quickly - perhaps an opportunity for apologizing could have been given *before* banning.

My two cents.

[edit: Oh, and swearing in the thread title, while creative, doesn't exactly help anyone's cause.]


 

(Edited by Slime on 06-28-2004 02:30)

I agree wholeheartedly with Slime. The insult in question was strongly worded and most definitely a poor choice. However, I seriously doubt that Xpirex was really calling Lacuna the name in question. If he was, then he would have also been saying that he has a certain piece of female anatomy.

Let's not forget this either: Lacuna is not completely innocent and I think if Xpirex is forced to apologize then Lacuna should do the same. Xpirex vocalized the exact same thing that I was thinking when I read the headline. "Why should I bother to register to read this article?" It would have been nice to at least get a short quip so we all knew what we were registering for.

I most definitely think that the resolution of this situation was far too hasty. I also think that there is a it of a double standard here because Lacuna is female. Personally, I've had such tasty treats as asshole, prick, fucker, and faggot directed at me without so much as twitch by any MS. I've also most likely aimed things like this at other members and done so without being admonished.

As I said in the thread, Xpirex was never given any kind of warning or the chance to edit his post to delete or reword the offending remark. I also don't think that Xpirex should be forced to apologize in order to be reinstated. I think that his priveledges should be reinstated immediately with the understanding that any further insults will not be tolerated.

:::11oh1:::

I would just like to reiterate what I said before. I do not, in any way, shape or form, think that I should have any say so in the outcome of this. I'm not looking for an apology and I certainly don't think an apology to me should be a stipulation of whether or not Xpirex is allowed back. As far as I?m concerned, that would make it totally insincere and pointless. I can civilly co-exist with people that I have a very low opinion of. That is, after all, one of the dynamics of the asylum... interacting with people that you may not like.
While it's pathetic that an adult male will so quickly resort to such nasty name calling towards a female, I have no desire to turn this into a feminist crusade either. But yes, it was offensive.
And lets be real here, I?ve been called worse things (not much... but still) does that make it ok? No. But, it's not the end of the world either.

Krets, no where have I seen anyone, even myself, say that I was innocent. I?ve acknowledged my bit in this, which Xpirex, to this point, hasn?t? at least not in the email I got. I think I clearly said in that thread that what I said was probably not necessary and a bit snotty (and I said so to Xpirex in reply to his email). But quit fuckin whining does NOT justify the response I got. He could have told me to fuck right the hell off... but he didn't. Like lazy, retard and bitch just weren't enough

I'm at a loss here, is the thread in question still viewable?




...Of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most (ozzy osbourne)

The thread in question

Don't have much to add, my opinion of the matter has nicely been covered by Slime and Krets.

_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"
- the Golden Ratio - Vim Tutorial -

I don't understand why this is such a big deal. I am sure that I have been called a whore multiple times, and if someone told me to lick their clit I don't think I would have much a problem with that either. I know I have been told to "suck my dick" multiple times here. I think I have even been told to "suck my dick, faggot." A curse should just be water running off everyones back, if someone has to curse at another to get their point across then they have already lost the aguement and are just grasping at straws.

I really, really, really don't like how the ban has been used lately. I wasn't happy when Adolf Hitler was banned, so you can be assured that this one just baffled me.

The thing that really gets me is that this issue came up after I posted the link to bugmenot. Click on the links people, might save you some hassel next time.

Dan @ Code Town

I know little or nothing about the Xpirex Affair, but this is an open thread with a question, so I thought I'd put in a rather insubstantial two-pennies worth.

1 - If we lived in a society where one can't insult another without fear of a lawsuit, then traffic wardens would be taking up all the court's time with petty suits.

2 - What is freedom of speech all about if I can't use an offensive word once in a while, whether in reference to some racial/political extreme (though, being white, I am the least likely to get away with this) or to stress an expession?

3 - I find that swearing in another language can be quite refreshing - especially when bantering with a foreigner. Not much point in calling a Frenchman a "f***ing dickless a**hole" if he has no idea what you are saying, eh?

But, regardless, I never throw petty insults at people for no reason (especially in writing), and I don't see what can be achieved by doing so indiscriminately. I certainly wouldn't call someone a whore unless it was either in friendly jest (my brother is a tart and he knows it), or if it was a claim I could back up with witness statements, personal observations, or substantial evidence. I might call them a bitch, but that's only if I'm feeling bitchy.

Anyway, one way or the other, I live by this rule: Never say anything about anyone you don't mean, and that you wouldn't say directly to their face...

...unless it's some mouthy git on a gameserver, spoiling everyone's fun - in which case, have at them!

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

In addition to what Michael and Slime have so eloquently stated, I think my two rules for life should apply here, too.
Rule 1: Don`t sweat the small shit.
Rule 2: It`s all small shit.

So, let`s walk this off, like we have so many times before, and get on with it, eh ?

1. Is it O.K. to insult someone in a way that would be reason for a lawsuit in some western countries?
No - but I don't think that calling a person a "whore" and telling them to "lick my clit" is cause to sue for libel, slander or harrassment. It was only one remark. And (remember I like you Lacuna), while she probably didn't deserve that strong of a reply to her smart-ass comment, Lacuna did ask for something with her reply... Xpirex was certainly harsher than the situation warranted, but I can see him getting mad at that reply to his request for some text from the article, as opposed to anyone interested register to read one article at a site they may never visit again... Lacuna obviously knows she wasn't very nice to start with, but I don't think banning Xpirex was the way that should have gone. Yeah he flew off the handle, but who has never done that before? C'mon guys...

2. Is it O.K. to use some bad words that some people think you shouldn't use?
Sure - but there's a time and a place for everything. If you want the privelege of using swear words, you should at least be responsible enough to know that the general public doesn't always find such words acceptable. And I've never agreed with name-calling anyway. Swear words to punctuate expression is one thing, slander is totally different. Calling a person a "whore" can be considered slander in some instances - I doubt it was meant as such here. A fair warning that such language (in any language) is unacceptable here would have been more appropriate.

3. Is there a difference between cursing in english and cursing in another Language?
Of course there is - not all people speak multiple languages, and it sure does take the fun out of an argument to have it posted in a language one can't understand without the help of a translator program...
Besides that, it's chickenshit to insult someone in a language other than the one that person speaks. It says you're not brave enough to say such things to their face. If you can't say it so that it's completely understood by the person intended to receive the remark, well, maybe you should think about whether or not thats something you need to be saying in the first place.

I saw the thread after Lacuna had posted it, but didn't feel like registering for the site, so I didn't read the article. I don't know whether or not I missed out on anything really entertaining, but I also didn't feel like the registration requirement justified me saying anything nasty to the person who posted either. The whole incident was uncalled for. But I don't think people should be banned for letting their emotions get the better of them.

In any community, you have people who don't get along. I don't see anywhere in history where exiling a person from a community is a generally accepted solution to what most would call a mild disagreement. I can see banning him maybe if Xpirex had made a habit of calling people names like that, or if he and Lacuna were continually arguing or he with anyone else for that matter... Let's not resort to banning folks as a means to solve disputes. These things usually work themselves out ok in the end.

my $0.02

(Edited by bodhi23 on 06-28-2004 18:07)

quote:

---

Rule 1: Don`t sweat the small shit.
Rule 2: It`s all small shit.

---

^ yep.

I'd also like to remind everyone that once you register to places like the NY Times, it's very easy to forget that people who are not registered will be asked to register....it's not like a link was posted with the intent of making people register for something.

So I sincerely echo the "quit your fucking whining".

And while xpi's response was way out of line IMO, re-read DB's statement.

As much as it wouldn't bother me not to have to see xpi's posts, banning for such a thing is completely absurd. It should be reserved for far worse scenarios.

(Edited by DL-44 on 06-28-2004 18:05)

So calling someone a whore is grounds for banning now?

Thats insane. At the very most, an exchange like that should be delt with deleting the individual posts and a stern talking to. To add insult to injury Lacuna is the one who has the say in whether or not xpi would be allowed back? After she started the nasty exchange? I hope I don't get banned for calling this insane.

"My father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else's mantle or pretend to be anybody else. I don't know what's wrong with these people -- they have to keep invoking him. It is their administration, their war. If they can't stand on their own two feet, they're no Ronald Reagans, for sure." - Ronald P. Reagan.

My $0.02; DB's on the money - life's too short

I don't know what countries you guys are from, but in my area of Western Civilization, usually the trial is prior to the punishment, not afterwards....

Jason

Well, we aren`t constrained to Western "Civilization", this is not a trial, and the punishment may not really be punishment at all.
We`ve had a series of overreactions, and we`re getting over it the hard way.
Walk it off.

quote:

---

Well, we aren`t constrained to Western "Civilization"

---

sorry, how do you mean that?

| - THESPACE - | E.A. | PORTFOLI0 | lonesome | CELL 557

All right - I've succeeded in provoking about thrice the amount of words from you MS than I had expected - and the tenor has been pretty clear.

I have lifted Xpirex' ban - though any of the Mad Scientists could have done so as well. I've mailed him about it.

Now, can we get this into a short list of guidelines for the future?
I'll make a start - and I'd appreciate it if you just said 'yes' if you like it (or point out what you'd like changed - but any new version will have to be voted on again...)


General Rules for handling Problems

1. Don't sweat the small stuff.
2. It's all small stuff.
3. If it can get the Doc in trouble, censor. (and take screenshots if you edit posts)
4. If it reoccurs, try to get it to email.
5. If you're unsure, ask the other Mad Scientists in the Mad Scientists Laboratory.
6. There is no rule six.
7. Banning should be so infrequent as to never happen - and should never be done by a lone MS.

Any vetos?

so long,
Tyberius Prime

Edit: lists look better when you close the tags ;-)

(Edited by Tyberius Prime on 06-29-2004 16:43)

The rules sounds good to me.

Maybe add something about saying that one should always a a warning - either through mail or as a post on the forum - before one gets banned. So you have the chance to correct your mistake and avoid being banned.

_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"
- the Golden Ratio - Vim Tutorial -

How about making rule 7 - banning has to be always discussed by the MS in the Laboratory first?.


PS: I'll see to it that the emailform feature for the profiles get's up and running soon (a month, two at most... time is short these days).
PPS: ->Emperor has degraded himself... see the ->adminLog.

I take full responsibility for this mess and have handed in my badge.

I'll also be taking a break from the place as I've clearly got too involved (my main crime might be caring too much - who knows?).

I would like to say it is about context and intent (and not much to do with legal business, etc.) - someone like krets is a big lad (in more ways than one) and seems not to object to being called just about anything and while it may be acceptable for a black guys friends to call him nigger (cf NWA) I think we all agree there are many contexts where this would be unacceptable and this is how I feel about whore. How could call me a whore from now until doomsday and I wouldn't bat an eyelid but I don't think it is acceptable to call a woman a whore.

Clearly just my opinion and one that appears not to be reflected by the others here.

The Asylum is in a tricky position because "we don't ban people" when we do - see:

Banning Members and Asylum Growing Pains

and so there are no procedures or policy on this and I'm glad to see TP has started the ball rolling on this. It should help make sure things like this never happen again and I hope everyone makes their opinion heard.

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

Don't get me wrong - I believe very strongly that Xpi was *way* out of line, and that he proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he is a complete asshole with his reaction.

I also don't think Lacuna's "quit your fucking whining" was uncalled for or out of line. I think it was very appropriate for the situation in fact.

I just think banning should require something more dire.

Things I think are worthy of banning -

- blatant racism (this implies not just prejudice, but 'hate crime' type of thought)

- threats (threats of violence, threats of hacking, etc...)

- continual spamming and/or blatantly disruptive posting (I think posts such as xpi's post in question *do* fall under this category. But it would take a series of such things for me to be convinced on banning)

I also don't think this is anything that anyone needs to 'hand in their badge' over. This type of situation is exactly why the checks and balances exist here, and the history of collaborative decision making and discussion (such as this thread) negates the need for anyone to lose mod status over such a thing. Especially given the fact that you didn't act alone, you consulted with another mod first.

Well, we didn't ban people here Emperor.

It's important to realize that these emotional outbursts and other problems aren't new to the Asylum. Those problems never caused lawsuits or put the Asylum offline. They never disrupted things so badly it was impossible to have intelligent debates. Whether we ban members or not, these problems aren't going to go away. What WM said in Banning Memers and Asylum Growing Pains is true. The Doc tried never to ban people but I'm sure if things got out of hand he would have.

My suggestions for the guidelines as to which we ban people are very simple: Has the offender repeatedly caused so much havok that intelligent discussion is no longer possible. Anytime a large group of diverse people get together you're going to have arguements, disagreements, and flame wars. Those are unavoidable, however, they don't shut down the Asylum. We should reserve the ban for offenses that make it impossible for the Asylum to function. For everything else, we should resort to the Doc's choosen method of dealing with things that has worked without a hitch for just about four years - ignoring the idiot.

Just my $.02.

"My father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else's mantle or pretend to be anybody else. I don't know what's wrong with these people -- they have to keep invoking him. It is their administration, their war. If they can't stand on their own two feet, they're no Ronald Reagans, for sure." - Ronald P. Reagan.

quote:

---

I also don't think this is anything that anyone needs to 'hand in their badge' over. This type of situation is exactly why the checks and balances exist here, and the history of collaborative decision making and discussion (such as this thread) negates the need for anyone to lose mod status over such a thing. Especially given the fact that you didn't act alone, you consulted with another mod first.

---

I'm with DL.
Take a break, if need be... but not worth handing things over.
This changes absolutely nothing in my mind about my confidence in your mindset, decision making abilities, or overall presence to be a moderator here --- one of the best we've had, infact.
The asylum has grown beyond this incident already... don't take something away from the asylum by stepping aside.

That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

Yeah, you don't need to do that, Emps. You did what you thought was right and no one's blaming you for it. You've more than made up for it with your constant contributions.


 

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Something I'd like to point out is that, if he really had an intent meaning to what he said, he would have said it in English. I think he was just getting smart with Lacuna by saying it in Hebrew. And as most of us who have seen Xpi's posts before, we know that he is quite dignified and wouldn't just step out of a fight so easily.

I don't think he should be banned for saying that. I think what he said was vulgar and very unnecessary, but not bannable. I don't even think that thread should have been closed. Better it would be left open for the replies ahead, so he can learn from everyone elses reaction, what he did was not appropriate and is not appriciated here. I don't think anyone is out to change Xpi's way of thinking and way of behaving, but more rather keeping comments to himself and taking a chill pill.

I know I've been the cause of some pretty fucked up drama moments back in the day. And as far as I can see, I'm not a problem anymore. Just give him time. If he learns his lesson and stops being a dick, great. If he continues being a dick, ignore it. Let him wade in a pool of his own ignorant immaturity.

Well, it's me again. I've been on the road all day and I think my brain has become somewhat dislocated, but I just couldn't resist sharing something (and it does turn out to be relevant, almost):

As is clear, I'm new here. I don't really make a habit of posting on forums, but something about this one (specifically, the 'philosilly' section) turned me from a reader to a member. For the sake of argument, let's forget that my contributions have so-far been fairly meaningless; generally light-hearted and usually pointless.

The members of this forum strike me as being widely varied in their views and philosophies, generally capable of expressing themselves in an intelligible manner, and in possession of knowledge, experience, and opinions that I might sometimes admire, sometimes disagree with, often learn from, maybe be offended by... but always respect.

The initial incident was one that caused indignation, raised a few temperatures, and led to an understandable but excessive punitive action. The reactions to both the incident and the ensuing ban were indicative of the maturity and capability of both the In Mates and the Mad Scientists.

The fair exchange I read above, to be honest, makes me proud to be an In Mate at the Ozone Asylum, and painfully aware that I have so little to seriously contribute.
Having read this thread, I realise that my decision to become a member was a good one. My faith was well placed. I look forward to being able to develop as a responsible member of this community. Hopefully, I will be able to become a more valuable contributor too.

Personally, I am glad that Xpirex's ban has been lifted, while hoping that Lacuna and Xpirex can reconcile their differences and interact amicably. Expressing this was not the intention of this post, however.

In a sense, I feel that I have witnessed here an example of the manner in which the members of this forum conduct themselves, how members behave towards eachother, and the whole community's potential to evolve.

If everybody agreed all the time, the world would be dull and life would be pointless - but understanding and accepting the differences, forgiving transgressions, and showing compassion and respect for other people regardless of their views and deeds (within reason) are all qualities that we aspire to in the name of civilised society.

These qualities have been amply demonstrated throughout the forum, and in this thread.

I'm glad to meet you all.

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-30-2004 22:43)

Well put and welcome
/Dan
[btw, I agree wholeheartedly]

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

quote:

---

I take full responsibility for this mess and have handed in my badge. I'll also be taking a break from the place as I've clearly got too involved (my main crime might be caring too much - who knows?).

---

Emps, it will be a sad day for humanity when it's a crime to care; if you feel you need a break, enjoy it - you've certainly earned a rest with everything that's been changing over the past year. I, too, can only echo White Hawks sentiments; the way in which this place functions was enough to change me from a lurker of 2 years standing to becoming a member. Your commitment ,along with that of many others, made me feel that I was taking without giving by lurking any longer. Not to get all maudlin, but at 53 I've seen plenty come and go; there's heaps of shitty things in life and sometimes ya have ta leave em ta scrap it out. It's not ego massage - your badge should be tattooed on - ya not allowed out

Michael beat me to it again.
Fucker.


Take a break if you wish, Emps. Leave us, if you wish it.
But don`t do any of that over this. It`s not that important. I`d restore your Mad Sci status myself if I could figure out how.
Besides, when the World Domination plan comes to fruition, I`d rather you were here. (you know, with your robe ON).

Emp's besides that which as been said above there's not much more that I can add, but the contribution you make to this place plus the reasons you had for your choice (and it wasnt a solo decision) far outweigh the minor ripples this caused in the journey of the asylum...

I will find it a sad day when you decide to go your own ways... I hope it's just a short break, but your voice of reason and dedication to this place will be sorely missed..

stay lucky and be happy....

Tom

I agree that the whole 'free speech' thing has gone and become a bunch off bullsheize. It doesn't exist. Hasn't for a long time.

Hell, Louis Riel (who you wouldn't know, he just led a massive rebellion of the Metis versus the Canadian Government) killed Scott Thomas I believe, just for being belligerant and threatening his life verbally.


Deine mutter! Ja, das ist recht!

I think the term 'Free Speech' has been a misnomer for years.

All throughout our society, speech is free so long as it fits the aims of the public/political agenda and is influenced largely in definition by the media.

If speech were truly free there would be chaos!

My goodness.. so much fuss over something so unimportant. Well, after my 'instant' ban I was unable to respond to anything that was being said. Then I got kind of flu thing and took some time off from the computer.

1. I had no idea Lacuna was a female as I would never address a woman in that way. (Or one that behaved like a woman) I think Lacunas rudeness was uncalled for but as I said I am not a total brute, I say here to Lacuna that perhaps knowing your fragility and sex that I should not have said that to you. I'm almost sure you didn't even bother to translate it yourself but that 'stalker' came running to you screamng murder and vengeance.
2. My snidy backlash was to me the equivalent of throwing a rotten cabbage or egg and no real big deal.
3. It appears that by the confusion and duality that ensued that there are two or even three sets of 'post police' in here so I don't really know who I'm talking to and having or answer to, or who is enforcing those ambiguous and sometimes bias and preferential standards.
4. The ban was only lifted not due to any kindness or sense of fairness but because others stepped forward to complain and express the unfairness of the whole rediculous situation, otherwise I am certain I would still be banned. I see a massive difference between he who banned me.. and he who lifted the ban. (Note taken)
5. DL-44: There are many assholes in here, I feel the same way about you.. no big deal.
6. However you precious ones may feel to the contrary.. this is not your living room.

...and here is a little quote from and email Emperor sent me after I asked him how I could defend myself if I am banned and unable to post:

quote:

---

You can use email - you can also email TP if you feel you wouldn't get a fair hearing from me.

---

..that sure sounds like a warm invitation to me.

..and a quote from an email from Lacuna:

quote:

---

Xpirex-

You can place the blame for your bad behavior wherever you'd like, but
the fact of the matter is, you're an adult. How you react to any given
situation is completely your responsibility. My saying "quit fuckin
whinin" had nothing to do with your initial comment. It had to do with
the 2nd post you made, the one that I quoted. As I said in my post at
the Asylum, in my opinion, you were whining. I don't see "quit fuckin
whinin" as a "vicious and slap in the face". Nor was it "such a strong
reaction". It was a bit snotty, but hardly deserving of you referring
to me as: retarded, lazy, bitch and saying "lick my clit you whore" and
the other one about shitting on you or some such vile thing.
It's ok if you've got a problem with me or something I've said. Step up
and tell me that you've got an issue...hell, you could even tell me to
fuck off, but to say the shit you said.... totally unnecessary. If
someone telling you to quit fuckin whining sends you on an infantile
name calling tirade, then maybe you're a bit too sensitive.

As for what they do with you, it really doesn't make a shittin bit of
difference to me. You've made your character very clear and I don't
think you being at the Asylum or not is going to change that. You seem
to be on a mission to piss off and alienate as many people as you
possibly can. I wish you all the luck in the world with that.

---

Does not sound much like a lady to me.. so you can see how easy it is to mistake that persons sex for a cursing, spitting untterly un-feminine construction worker.

quote:

---

# If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
* Noam Chomsky


# Censorship is never over for those who have experienced it. It is a brand on the imagination that affects the individual who has suffered it, forever.
* Nadine Gordimer


# The very aim and end of our institutions is just this: that we may think what we like and say what we think.
* Oliver Wendell Holmes


# The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.
* Hubert H. Humphrey


# Men in earnest have no time to waste
In patching fig-leaves for the naked truth.
* James Russell Lowell


# We live in oppressive times. We have, as a nation, become our own thought police; but instead of calling the process by which we limit our expression of dissent and wonder "censorship," we call it "concern for commercial viability."
* David Mamet


# You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.
* John Morley


# Free speech is the whole thing, the whole ball game. Free speech is life itself.
* Salman Rushdie


# I am of course confident that I will fulfill my tasks as a writer in all circumstances--from my grave even more successfully and more irrefutably than in my lifetime. No one can bar the road to truth, and to advance its cause I am prepared to accept even death. But may it be that repeated lessons will finally teach us not to stop the writer's pen during his lifetime? At no time has this ennobled our history.
* Alexander Solzhenitsyn


# Woe to that nation whose literature is cut short by the intrusion of force. This is not merely interference with freedom of the press but the sealing up of a nation's heart, the excision of its memory.
* Alexander Solzhenitsyn


# In America the majority raises formidable barriers around the liberty of opinion; within these barriers an author may write what he pleases, but woe to him if he goes beyond them.
* Alexis de Tocqueville


# I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.
* Voltaire

---

QUOTATION: "The trouble with a rat race is that even when you win, you're still a rat.''

..and here is a little quote from an email Emperor sent me after me asking him how I could get a fair hearing if I am banned:




(Edited by Xpirex on 07-06-2004 17:51)

(Edited by Xpirex on 07-06-2004 17:55)

That's all well and good, but let me point out once again that this is a discussion board, owned by a person who pays for its existence. It's not "liberty isle" where we all run free and the world is filled with love and joy and freedom.

The rules on running it are set by him, and any high ideals of what free speech should encompass are irrelevent.

There are rules, and there are people who's job it is to enforce them. They do so as they see fit, and there are plenty of checks in place to ensure that - as in this case - whatever actions one or two take, they can be undone if it is seen that it should be.

Sounds about as simple and as can be, and about as good as you could hope for.

I echo DL's words.

Also, Xpirex:
A couple of quick little bits I'd like to respond to... (although this has been drug further than needed already)
In #4 of your post, you said "not due to any kindness or sense of fairness but because others stepped forward to complain and express the unfairness of the whole rediculous situation".

I suppose, if you were looking at things from your perspective, that could possibly be the case.
No.. this was not resolved through kindness.. just as it shouldn't be.
But in truth -- this very much was resolved with a sense of fairness. Not to call it that, would mock each individual who has ever helped out as a moderator here at the Asylum.. and even more-so the individuals who have expressed their opinions (for or against the ban) here in this thread, via email, or instant messaging program.

- My 2 cents on the matter.

On the topic of posting what people have written via email to you personally... all I can say, is that's bad for business. Keep that stuff between you and them, please.
If you would be nice enough to edit your post and remove it, I'm sure a lot of people can press on and put this whole thing behind us rather than stir the pot a bit more.

(Edited by Michael on 07-06-2004 23:57)

quote:

---

Does not sound much like a lady to me.. so you can see how easy it is to mistake that persons sex for a cursing, spitting untterly un-feminine construction worker.

---

Sounds like I agree with the "cursing, spitting untterly un-feminine construction worker"
You're still acting childish and you're still whining.


The other other other other other white meat.

I said at the start that I think this whole thing was rather silly and not worth all this attention.
I thank Tiberius Prime as he is the one that contacted me acted on my behalf. Personally I rank DL-44 in the same leage as Emps.. (and neither will traet me fairly)

I agree that this was solved with a sense of fairness.. but fairness from just a few. I know some were fair and I thank them. I know some were not so don't expect a blanket hug to all because I don't feel it. I would appreciate if you would not try to twist my comments either into saying that I am disrespecting all administrators and staff in here... I did not say that and did not mean that. You have no right to imply it unless you just want to pick up where Emps left off.

I posted Lacunas email as I want others to see that there may be two sides to a person.. and that I am often shown the other side. I do not consider that any breach of privacy. Lacuna too mentioned an email I sent her/him saying that I did not apologise. Is that a breach of privacy too?

tntcheats: You don't know anything about me and I you.. let's leave it that way.

It's over.. done.. finished. Find someone else to pick on now.

QUOTATION: "The trouble with a rat race is that even when you win, you're still a rat.''



(Edited by Xpirex on 07-07-2004 00:28)