Topic awaiting preservation: The Gospels of Peace (Page 2 of 2)

Hello everybody! It looks like you have carried this conversation in a whole new direction since I have been gone. Sounds like a good topic. I would like to adress some previous concerns first, then I will get to the church.
First off:

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jade said:

Christ would never deny his own biological Mother as just a mere soul who just
happen to be the instrument used to come into the world and just discard her as
ordinary like you and I.

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No, that wasn't what I was wanting to say. She was a holy and blessed woman, I just don't think that she should be prayed to. About the discarding, that could be close to true considering what you three have been talking about... And we are certainly not discarded as ordinary either. There is no one who is ordinary (if anything we are below normal among the great in the Bible) to Jesus. He loves us all individually and differently.

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jade said:

She was without sin in the world.

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Okay, this is debatable. I know that she was a righteous person, but she was not entirely without sin unless she had made all the appropriate sin offerings (which most likely did happen) and then stayed in the law her entire life. But, it says in scripture:

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Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

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That includes Mary. None are free of sin. She just made the offerings and life style to become "sinless".
As for his siblings, that is not known for certain. It is up for scholars in the Holy Land to look for, but as far as I know it is not sinful to have children. I know that adultry is sin, but adultry is extramarital. She could have still had siblings. Plus:

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Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.

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King James says:

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Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

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That further proves my point that she did have other children. But, off of that, I just wanted to say that I think she was a great person, and very blessed, but I don't see why she should be prayed to. Not when you can just pray to Jesus or the Father (through the Holy Spirit). It doesn't make sense to me.

Okay, now that past issues are done, onto the topic at hand.

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jade said:

Mary is no God due worship

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I'm glad, that is what I was worried about.

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DL-44 said:

Why "surely"?

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I agree about this. If you can find it I posted some scripture earlier about Jesus not being accepted in his own town. That is part of it.

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bodhi23 said:

While they [Essenes] are probably not what one would consider "Christian" at this time in
history, they were here before the Christians, and Jesus evidently thought
enough of their teachings to include them in his work.

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I don't know about that. A lot of what they teach is parallel to what Jesus teaches, but that was just the same as what the normal religion of the time was. There were some radically different ideas in the Essene site that were totally against what Jesus taught. I don't know if Jesus would have allowed what they said to even have been spoken near Him! Like the idea of reincarnations. That wasn't Jesus. He was resurections. And kinda immediate spiritual perfection, not this "redemption through works" as the Essenes have.

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bodhi23 said:

The Holy Spirit is the representation of the feminine here.

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I don't think that is entirely true. The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, and if it is Female, then He would have to be the "Mother."

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jade said:

Peter as our first bishop of Rome, who just happens to be the title of the
current pope.

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Matthew 16:15-19
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus said to him, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."

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This is where that thought came about.
Um, just to clairify one thing Bohdi, Paul was a missionary and started many churches, but He was moving so much that I doubt He had time to become the Bishop of Rome ie. Pope.
Bodhi, I bet you are a women's rights activist. I have a few friends who share your same opinion about the world, and I think that women should have more rights than they do. Especially in the Middle East. There women are treated like dirt. I do think that there should be a change, but not in the religious aspect. Churches are run that way because they have been run that way. Generally in the past it was the male figure in the household who brought the money in and the female who took care of the house and family. The only civilization that was not true in was a civilization off the coast of Greece. There both were equal and happy about it. Only problem is that ended about 500 BC. The roles of men and women have largely been defined in the past by the need of someone in the house caring for the children, and one out getting supplies and allowing the children a better life than either parent did before. Either role can be played by either partner, but since the children came out of the mother, there is usually a stronger bond there. That is why most soldiers who die on the battlefield call for their mothers. Women played a large role in society back then, it was just different. More behind the scenes. Women back then were noble, and allowed their glory hog husbands to get all the fame (except the few like Ruth who were dragged into the spotlight). I have more respect for those women who were behind the scenes than for many of the men in front. I do agree that women in the past weren't properly given credit they deserved, but that can't be changed without making people angry. It can be changed for the better in the future though.

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DL-44 said:

Papal authority realistically began with emperical authority

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Yup. The authority was usually too persecuted to have any say in anything. THen, when the Roman Empire fell, there was almost too much say from the church. That will be the topic of my next post. TTFN.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 09-27-2004 03:40)

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jade said:

Christ would never deny his own biological Mother as just a mere soul who just
happen to be the instrument used to come into the world and just discard her as
ordinary like you and I.
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jade said:

She was without sin in the world.
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Okay, this is debatable. I know that she was a righteous person, but she was not entirely without sin unless she had made all the appropriate sin offerings (which most likely did happen) and then stayed in the law her entire life. But, it says in scripture:


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Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
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That includes Mary. None are free of sin. She just made the offerings and life style to become "sinless".



Gideon. You are judging and individual. Its against scripture to say someone is in sin. "Do not judge and you yourself will not be judged"

Plus, you cannot be certain that Mary entered into this world in sin. We believe she was conceived without sin. Saved from sin by God. Mary was saved through anticipated merits of Jesus. Her salvation was simply more perfect. If your Christian, don't you believe we are cleansed from sin after our birth. Why couldn't she be cleansed before her birth. Isn't anything possible with God.Luke 1:37, In Luke 1:26-56 Note how the Angel Gabriel shows Mary great honor in a greeting and telling her she would bear God. See how Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit calls Mary blessed twice in just four short verses. Under guidance from the Holy Spirit, Elizabeth gives Mary great honor with the words. " And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord(God) should come to me"? In verse 48, Mary prophesies that all ages will call her blessed. Why don't you do what scripture tells you to do by calling her blessed? Catholics are following scripture here. Why aren't protestants doing the same thing? She is the woman in Gen 3:15 whose enmity with Satan and SIN is absolute. She is the Ark of the Covenant (Ex 25:11-21) made to hold the living Word of God, a HOLY TABERNACLE MADE NOT OF THE PUREST GOLD, BUT OF THE PUREST FLESH. St. Paul is emphasizes the universal aspect of sin extending to Jew and Gentiles alike. Babies had not sinned; Adam and Eve before the fall had not sinned; Jesus never sinned. These are the exceptions that fall outside of St. Pauls condemnation. Mary is another. There is no denying Jesus was Mary's savior in that he saved her from sin before she was able to sin.

Do you believe Jesus was born of the Blessed Virgin Mary? Do you believe Jesus had two natures, one human, one divine? Since this one person was born of Mary, she truly is the Mother of one divine person; the Mother of God. If you deny Mary is the Mother of God, whether you realize it or not, you are denying the Incarnation. You are saying either that Jesus is not God, or that Jesus is two persons-one human and one divine.

What is your idea on how God overshadowed Mary and she became pregnant? Can you be certain on how Jesus was conceived? Do you know the exact details? And why was that left out of scripture? Overshadowed???? What would that mean to you?

A title we give Mary is the Mother of God because, Elizabeth calls her "mother of my Lord" In the new testament "Lord" refers only to God. Right? In Mt 1:23 Behold the virgin shall be with child and bear a son and they shall name him Emmanuel which means "God is with us" Check Luke 1:35 "The child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God" In Gal 4:4" But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his son born of a woman"


Gideon said:

As for his siblings, that is not known for certain. It is up for scholars in the Holy Land to look for, but as far as I know it is not sinful to have children. I know that adultery is sin, but adultery is extramarital. She could have still had siblings. Plus:


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Matthew 1:25 but kept her a virgin until she gave birth to a Son; and he called His name Jesus.
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Matthew 1:25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
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Gideon said:

That further proves my point that she did have other children. But, off of that, I just wanted to say that I think she was a great person, and very blessed, but I don't see why she should be prayed to. Not when you can just pray to Jesus or the Father (through the Holy Spirit). It doesn't make sense to me.

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Protestants argue that the word "until" indicates that Mary and Joseph engaged in conjugal love after the birth of Jesus. The problem is they use the modern meaning of "until," instead of its Biblical meaning. In the Bible, ?until? means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that a action happened later. A perfect example is (2 Sam 6:23), "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death" Does this verse mean Michal had children after her death? Of course not, no one would believe that.

Protestants also use (Matt 1:25) to claim Jesus could not be Mary's "first-born" unless there were other children, but this shows their ignorance of the way the ancient Jews used this term. The first male child of a marriage was termed the "first-born" even if he turned out to be a only child. Jewish parents did not have to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the "first-born".

One last area of confusion is in which the terms "brothers," and "sisters " of the Lord are used in the Bible. One must first understand the reason for the confusion. Modern Protestants are unaware that in the Hebrew and Aramaic languages spoken by Christ and His disciples did not have special words to denote cousin or kinsman. In the Bible "brother" and "sister" are not restricted to their modern meaning. When reading the Bible, one must look at the context of each verse in order to understand it. Furthermore, in every passage that refers to Jesus' brothers or sisters, the sacred authors were very careful to only call Jesus the son of Mary, no one else. This is evidence that the early Christians understood Mary?s perpetual virginity, and that the brothers and sisters of the Lord were relatives nothing more.

The Biblical evidence that supports the belief in Mary's perpetual virginity is overwhelming. First, the account of Jesus being found in the temple at age twelve (Lk 2:41-51). There is no mention or even a hint of other children. The probability of Mary and Joseph having more children if they were sexually active would have been a forgone conclusion, because the ancient Jews didn?t practice any form of birth control. Second, Jesus' action at the foot of the cross, when He entrusted his mother to John, makes no sense if Mary had other sons (Jn 19:25-28). If Jesus actually had brothers, it would have been customary by Jewish law that he bequeath her care to them. Instead he chose St. John the apostle, who was not related to Him by blood. The reality is that there is no biblical basis for rejecting Mary's perpetual virginity, but there is compelling evidence to support it.

(Edited by jade on 09-28-2004 08:45)

Nope - not a feminist, per se. But I am a historian, and my views are not colored by a particular belief system. All of the historical documents of the time period we are discussing reflect a strictly patriarchal world view. My opinion doesn't really matter in light of that...
All of the monotheistic religions I've ever read about were patricarchal, Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Judaism and Islam are the main 4. Go read up on 'em.

Uh, what? The Greeks? Woman-friendly? Ok - you are obviously reading different history than I am. On a quick search, I fould this:
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_1741501460_3/Ancient_Greece.html

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Although only men had the right to participate in city-state politics, women were citizens legally, socially, and religiously. Female citizens could own property and could go to court over property disputes. Nonetheless, ancient Greek society was paternalistic, with men acting as ?fathers? to regulate the lives of women and safeguard their interests (as defined by men). All women were expected to have male guardians to protect them physically and legally. Women's important religious duties included control over cults reserved exclusively for them and paid service as publicly supported priestesses. Teenage women generally married men in their 20s.
Sparta had a distinctive way of life designed to produce a vigorous military. There, girls could exercise in the open so they could become strong and bear healthy children. Boys left home at age seven to live in public barracks and to begin about 12 years of rigorous physical and moral training under the strict guidance of older men...

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Greek women were baby makers and care takers. Not active in politics or at all outside the home.

And here's a nice article relating the history of women's roles in society and in the Church from a Christian perspective.

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Women back then were noble, and allowed their glory hog husbands to get all the fame

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You're kidding, right? I'm not even going to respond to that one.

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The Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit, and if it is Female, then He would have to be the "Mother."

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from here

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The Biblical Hebrew word for spirit is ruwach, meaning wind, breath, inspiration; the noun is grammatically feminine. In the "Odes of Solomon'; the oldest surviving Christian hymnal, the Holy Spirit is grammatically female. The Greek word for spirit, 'pneuma', is of the neuter gender. The Holy Spirit is translated in masculine terms only in languages such as Latin and English.

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and here

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...numerous passages in the Nag Hamadi scrolls as well as the use of the feminine gender noun when speaking of the Holy Spirit in Hebrew and Greek are often cited as evidence for this belief.

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An argument for using female symbols for God arises from the practical effects of God-language on the readers. Imagery for God helps us understand the world. The way a faith community talks about God indicates what it considers the highest good, the profoundest truth. This language, in turn, molds the community's behavior, as well as its members' self-understanding. The fact that Jews and Christians ordinarily speak about God in the image of a male ruler can be problematic. For feminist theology, the difficulty does not lie with the male metaphors. Men as well as women are created in the image of God. The problem lies in the fact that the specific male images reflect a patriarchal arrangement of the world, casting God into the mold of an omnipotent, even if benevolent, monarch. God's maternal relation to the world is eclipsed.

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My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a whole. Don't be thicker than you must.

History, up until the last 50 years or so was almost wholly written by and about men. As history is generally written by the "winners", it is easy to see the implication that society was run by men and that women were just there to procreate and take care of households and children.

A major religious movement like Christianity necessarily takes its structure from the world around it. If the world is run by men, so is the Church then run by men. The only reason that it includes women so well these days is directly due to women's push to be an active part of society, instead of hovering in the "background", as you put it.

(Edited by bodhi23 on 09-28-2004 17:39)

Must second pretty much everything Bodhi said.

It is amazing what education without the bias of upholding religious dogma can do for a person

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Protestants argue that the word "until" indicates that Mary and Joseph engaged in conjugal love after the birth of Jesus. The problem is they use the modern meaning of "until," instead of its Biblical meaning. In the Bible, ?until? means only that some action did not happen up to a certain point; it does not imply that a action happened later. A perfect example is (2 Sam 6:23), "Michal the daughter of Saul had no children until the day of her death" Does this verse mean Michal had children after her death? Of course not, no one would believe that.

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You are using two different examples of the use of the word Jade.

The word "until" means "until" - whether it is used in teh bible or not. The meaning now is the same as it was then. It hasn't changed, Jade...

The word "until" has different implications depending on context. "until the day of her death" obviously means taht she never had children. To take that, and to say that the biblical use of the word "until" therefore means that something never happened is very ignorant.

Now, there is no explicit statement that Mary and Joseph had sexual relations and children after that point, just because the word until is used, but it most certainly leaves that possibility wide open, with a good probability even.



(Edited by DL-44 on 09-28-2004 17:58)

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My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a whole. Don't be thicker than you must.

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bodhi, wo-ahh! i just love the giggles out of you.

"love the giggles"

that's a new one on me!

Glad to oblige...

Damn nice post, Bodhi.

Amen!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

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jade said:

Its against scripture to say someone is in sin. "Do not judge and you yourself
will not be judged"

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No, no, no, I am not judging her, but that is beside the point.

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jade said:

Saved from sin by God.

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Yes.

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jade said:

If your Christian, don't you believe we are cleansed from sin after our birth.
Why couldn't she be cleansed before her birth.

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Yes, I do believe that we are cleansed from sin after we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior and ask his forgiveness.

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jade said:

Isn't anything possible with God.Luke 1:37

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Yes, that is true. But anything could be everything and everything could be anything which could also be nothing. Ture?

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jade said:

Why don't you do what scripture tells you to do by calling her blessed?
Catholics are following scripture here. Why aren't protestants doing the same
thing?

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I do call her blessed, I do respect her, we've been through this before. I just don't see any reason to pray to her like she is God. Secondly, Protestants is a very broad term which includes the Church of England which was practically Catholic. And, not all proptestants are against you. Certainly not this one. I would rather love you than bicker about this subject. I also don't like being attacked, but I have a heavy heart about why some Catholics will pray to Mary and not to Jesus. Some favor Mary over Jesus. I could care less about some of the nit-picky stuff. Well, that's not entirely true. I care about those too, and the Bible should all be thought of the same way, but I do respect the difference of views on each subject. (please don't anyone quote this and yell at me for this "contradiction." I really don't like it when that happens and it will be a very long post to explain myself, so just take it as is please.)

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jade said:

Overshadowed???? What would that mean to you?

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Heh, if someone other than God overshadowed a woman anyone could make a good guess about that one. But, since it is God, I bet he didn't ... you know. Most likely he just put Himself in there. That is most likely all.

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bodhi23 said:

All of the monotheistic religions I've ever read about were patricarchal

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Yup.

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bodhi23 said:

Uh, what? The Greeks? Woman-friendly? Ok - you are obviously reading different
history than I am.

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Okay, it wasn't the Greeks. I heard this last year in my Latin class, so I have fogotten the small detail of which island it was that harbored this civilization. I know it wasn't the Greeks, but either an Island off Greece, or Italy. It was in the Mediterranian for sure, and it was the closest thing to an equal system as history has been able to procure.
I find that strange, though. Don't you? That this island was the only one to have even close to equal rights? Why is that? I wonlder. I'm not saying women are inferior. Quite the opposite, women have some serious advantages to male, and some other disadvantages too. Works out quite well how they fit together huh?

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bodhi23 said:

My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a
whole

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I stand corrected. I guess it does make sense if it has feminine qualities. Sounds good to me at least. Kinda like Masculine and Feminie qualities balancing out? Makes sense. (I will agree too, nice post by the way)

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon.

I never argue or mean to hurt you. I see a debate going on here, If I come across as being attacked or attacking you don't take it personal.
I never take post here personal. I respect your faith as I know you do mine. We both know as Christians by faith we are always searching to know the truth of the one from which we come from. As this God draws us constantly to itself, it compels us to seek & understand deeper for a closer union. And in this closer union we know because of our trust in the Christ, his Holy Spirit seeks to spread itself in us and beyond to share it by evangelizing. To be Chrisitan dictates us to move about and spread the good news that captivity in sin is over if you put your total trust in the Lord. I know we both can agree on this.

I do enjoy the wealth of knowledge the non-christians or athiest contribute as it makes me ponder different views and points. I miss them when I don' t hear from them. Everynow and then we spark up religious topics and maybe rehash the same subjects again and again.

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My point is that the Holy Spirit embodies the feminine qualities of "God" as a whole.

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On the subject of the feminine God, in a theology course we studied the female face of God. Since we are made of his image and likeness, humankind refects God's holy extension of itself both male and female. Not in they way God physically looks. We do know God has no gender as scripture states. So too we give a feminine or masculine face to angels have no gender per scripture. But the essence of what God is I believe reflects womankind as well. I can agree with Bodhi here. Male is not greater of better that the female. Just that they were created in the divine plan for different roles of nature.

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jade said:

Male is not greater of better that the female. Just that they were created in
the divine plan for different roles of nature.

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I concur. Guys obviously can't have babies because they weren't made to. SO, guys have a different role, but when it comes to God, men and women pray together, and He hears a woman's prayer just as easily as a man...

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.