Topic awaiting preservation: Pope Denounces 'Imbalance' of Wealth ... (Page 1 of 5)

... while speaking at his summer palace. I wonder if as he spoke he realized how many people could be fed if he sold off his billion dollar art collection or his summer palace.

Pope Denounces 'Imbalance' of Wealth

gotta love irony.

I guess you can't expect anything different from teh head of such a hypocritical organization...

(Edited by DL-44 on 09-26-2004 20:38)

I don't think most non-catholics understand the system of the hierarchy of the church. Any art, etc has value only if its intends to be sold. It does not belong to anyone in particular. Its considered the legacy of the faith belonging to all Christians. Should we consider selling Michaelangelo's masterpiece "The Pieta" or should we sell the building housing the Sistine chapel? Why would we want to rid of our beautiful history in artwork and scatter it all over the world? It doesn't make sense.

The pope will die without owning property his whole life. All religious take a vow of proverty. Yes, the Vatican has the greatest artwork in the world but thats all it is. Besides, the largest contributing orgainization to the poor all over the world is Catholic Charities.

What about protestant pastors who have riches and mansions and own stock in the millions and arrive at their Sunday services in limos? Most televangelist pocket millions and that is contrary to scripture. RC priest are forbidden to own property and if they are willed any property or money or inherit, they cannont keep it. They must give it away or use it to feed the poor or use it for the ministry of the church. They die penniless and live on a very small income in their lifetime. Most retire to a homes for retired priest/nuns and their diocese pays for the home care through donations.

Pick on another denomination like the Rev Moon, who is one of the richest holy men in the world and owns all of UPI, real estate and tons of stock in major corporations in the world.

Better yet, all you who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, sell everthing you have and give it to charity. Live homeless and preach the good news of Jesus Christ. Live on faith. It will sustain you. Remember, before you start to remove the splinter from your brother's eye, remove the board from your own. Then maybe someone will take you serious.

Visit the Vatican sometime, Jade, and tell me that it isn't decadent.
Vows of poverty and arguements of ownership- pfft!

nice, jade.

i'm not Catholic, but i'm not a huge fan of religion-bashing either (at least, not by denomination ) ... mostly because that breeds too much ineffective contention.

that said, though, i think this global approach to erradicating poverty, while noble, is unrealistic. perhaps as true Christians we should be more focused on encouraging individual Christ-like behaviour... and letting the domino affect take over from there ...

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"...cause it's a war between evil and it's a war between good ..."

How'd the saying about the camel, the needle and the rich man go again? Exactly.

^ Ouch! Good point!

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Jade: the problem with what you are saying is theory vs. application.

The pope will die without having, technically speaking, owned the decadent riches that surround him. He will also die without having had to be financially responsible for the lavish lifestyle he enjoys.

The papal tiaras alone could feed a small country...

I agree wholeheartedly about the wrongs of many other religious figures.

What we're talking about here, however, is the blatant irony and hypocrisy of condemning the imbalance of wealth while speaking form your 'summer palace' which, if you ahve seen it, is quite splendid and lavishly decorated, as are all things associated with the RC heirarchy.

You need to take a closer look at what you so easily dismiss with convenient but unrealistic explanations. Vows of poverty mean very little when you live like a king on someone else's dime...

Your high horse is sinking in the mud Jade

Were any of the Saints rich?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Ok....
How do you want the supreme head of the global Catholic church to live? Would it satisfy it he lived in a one bedroom shack on the outskirts of Rome. Would he be able to correspond with his people from there? And have dignitaries from all over the world visit him there? Would that be ok? Since most non-Catholics have a problem with the pope's lifestyle, what would you all suggest?

What is not realized here is the honor, dignity & esteem of the Chair of Peter.

There are other hidden artifacts not seen by the public for centuries. They are secret. Some, you just cannot put a price tag on. Who knows their worth??? For all we know the RC could have the mysterious Ark of the Covenant. Would they ever sell it? No.

What about our President Bush or Kerry for that matter, a rich millionaire and a billionaire by marriage. Leaders of the free world.
Do they live in lavish lifestyles? Because of the office they hold, they are allowed certain protocol. Same concept with the religious leaders of the world.

We view the hierarchy as royal subjects of a throne. Like an earthly regal court belonging to Jesus of which he is King. We follow scripture in our esteme of the highest office in Christianity. Out of love for Christ and his mission we are safegarding the Chair.

^Just...wow.

Quite frankly, I'm at a loss for words...you really buy into that, don't you?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

jade -
I think you are giving people far more credit than they are due with regards to "appearances". People see the Pope living in lavish surroundings with marble and gilt walls. It doesn't matter that he does not technically "own" them. He does however with the voice of the Cardinals and Bishops control them.

This also needs to be divided out into religious relics and material wealth. No one asserts that the artifacts and relics (such as the pieces of the Cross or the Shroud of Turin) ever be sold. You are right, one cannot place value on such items. However, the gold plates and cups used in worship - those are material items regardless of the historical context.

Should the Pope live in a shack, no. I agree that he must have a place of dignity (but not decadence) to do his job. However, given that he is the head of a very wide and influential religion, he above all others should live by example. He should live modestly, humbly. Above all others he should seek to be the most Christlike of his congregation, because he is the earthly one that all followers {edit}of the RC Church {/edit} look to for guidance. As I said it matters not that he does not technically "own" the riches of the RC Church, the people see the wealth.

Catholic Charities may be the largest giver to the poor in the world, I've done no research to back up that claim but am willing to concede that on general principle. However, could you imagine the additional support the Charities could provide if even a little of that wealth was sacrificed?

As for G.W. Bush, and John Kerry, their wealth is their own business. As leaders of this country it is not a requirement that they live in poverty or even modestly. In this there is no parallel.

(Edited by Moon Dancer on 09-27-2004 21:07)

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In this there is no parallel.

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Exactly the point.

The leader of a religion based on a man who gave up all posession and walked the earth humbly preaching his message, and inspired his closest followers to do the same is certainly a bit at odds with the founding of his own religion when he lives in the manner of the pope, surrounded by pomp, riches, and the various other trappings of his position.

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What is not realized here is the honor, dignity & esteem of the Chair of Peter.

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Regardless of anything you wish to attach to it, it still comes down to a very broad irony.
(or, in more plain terms - horseshit!)

I was only posting the article to show the irony in his statements, but I suppose it evolved into an actual discussion.

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The pope will die without owning property his whole life. All religious take a vow of proverty.

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The Catholic Church has an interesting idea of poverty.

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How do you want the supreme head of the global Catholic church to live?

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Jade theres a rather large difference between the leader of a country/religion being provided a mansion and where the Pope resides. True, the Pope doesn't actually OWN his palaces. He just has the luxuary of living in them while being waited on hand and foot. His palaces make Saddam Hussein's look like the slums.

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Why would we want to rid of our beautiful history in artwork and scatter it all over the world? It doesn't make sense.

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Well, I'd assume the head of God's church on earth would be willing to part with works of art and homes across Europe in order to feed his people. Clearly I'm wrong but I man can dream, can't he?

You know, it must feel good to pope bash, because non-catholics do it continiously. They are judgemental and righteous it seems. They must go out and implement plans to feed the poor and give constantly of their time and money on a daily basis. I doubt if they get any sleep. They must get less sleeping hours than the current pope, who only sleeps 4 hours a nite. Seems that they too should be penniless, without homes, since they have such disgust for the way the Pope lives, that they themselves must be better examples. They must have power and impact on a global level in the way of making the planet a peaceful and better place to live. I wish I knew them personally, so I could think well of them and pray that they keep up the good work.

Seems the pope gets a lot of hate mail for trying to promote peace and do God's will on earth. Its something that people focus on the man and not his mission. John Paul is a beautiful holy man who would kiss the ground you all walk on just to serve you.

(Edited by jade on 09-28-2004 09:07)

MD

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However, the gold plates and cups used in worship - those are material items regardless of the historical context

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Here, you don't understand the veneration we give these cups and plates in the holy sacraments of our rituals in our Mass. If you would, you would understand. But Gold??? Who said they were real gold? Or worth lots of money. We buy them at religious supply stores. But because they handle the Holy Sacrafice of the Mass, the transfomed spieces, they themselves become holy utensils.

Where is it said the Pope eats from gold plates, forks and spoons worth thousands? And do you also want the place we worship in or form to be plain jane buildings with no decor. Do you think we should downsize St Peters in Rome? Demonish it and rebuild a smaller church with no marble floors or artwork? Would that make us a more human church that God and you would expect? And how would you know what God expects from the great leaders of Christianity?

(Edited by jade on 09-28-2004 09:31)

*Examines stonewall*

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

I am quite amazed by the blindness of some inmates here... *speechless*

jade -

There are a couple of things I would like you to understand:

1) I am not attacking you, your faith or your Religion.
2) I am trying to give you an outsiders perspective on how the Pope -and the religion at large- is seen

I am currenlty in the process of reexamining Christianity. I am attempting to do this by putting aside my preconcieved notions and quieting the cynic within. For once I am able to read without the inner commentary rolling its virtual eyes - and this is finally allowing me to really evaluate what I am reading and form my own opinion. What does this have to do with my two statements above? Simply that in order to understand, one must first listen - not hear - but listen. I understand the passion you have for your faith but all I ask is that you please read everything and think about it before defending your faith in an outburst and not addressing the issues in question.

From the outside, I can see that the Pope works very hard. This I won't deny. From the outside I see he is the leader of a religion that preaches humility, modesty, and giving up of material wealth. From this side there is a disconnection: How can a faith that preaches - tells its followers this is what they must do - glorify the material? These next statements are not directed to the RC church alone, but to Christianity in general? When I see beautiful cathedrals, crosses made of gold, jewel encrusted Communion cups and gold leafed plates it saddens me because in my eyes it cheapens the religion. I see years of labor and countless amounts of money that could have been better spent helping families in need. If a hillside was good enough for Jesus himself, why must the church that rose from him be so opulent?

I don't advocate the destruction of the cathedrals that are already built - that would be a little obnoxious. You say the items used in the Sacrament come from religious supply stores, does this somehow negate the fact that money is spent to purchase them? Can you explain why a plate leafed with gold is better than a simple stoneware plate when the act of the sacrament is what makes them "holy"?

And yes, I would expect that followers of Christianity would be more than happy to worship in "plain jane" buildings with no décor. What use is all of that décor when your purpose is to be closer to God? I don't presume to know what God thinks - however I do know from my upbringings as a Christian, and my subsequent departure and renewed study of the religion that nowhere in the Bible does it say that places of worship are to be places of material wealth and beauty. (However, if there is something I missed which I wholly conceded - feel free to point them out to me.)

p.s.

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who said they were real gold

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I know because I used to handle them after services.

Once again Jade, you manage to totaly avoid any actual issue brought up, and instead become defensive and even attacking.

~shrug~

Whatever - if you prefer to ignore the irony for the sake of being a good catholic, so be it.



Edit - and, yeah....honestly I do think it's natural to expect the "Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Jesus Christ, Successor of the Prince of the Apostles, Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church, Patriarch of the West, Primate of Italy, Archbishop and Metropolitan of the Roman Province, Sovereign of the State of the Vatican City, Servant of the Servants of God" to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us in some matters.

With that many names in your title, you should be doing a little more

(Edited by DL-44 on 09-28-2004 17:45)

I am just going to say this,
All leaders, regardless of religion, culture, ethnicity etc. etc. etc., that are vastly rich then say they are one of us and tell us how we should help others and take on vows of poverty and all that then do not do it themselves are liars. George Bush wants to say he is just another one of the guys? John Kerry wants to say he is just and average citizen? BULL*&^%! How many normal guys go to Yale and have millions of dollars and spend all day at a ranch? Not many that i know. As far as the pope goes he may not own it but he doesn't have to wear it. Same goes for Rev. Moon (WHOEVER THE HELL HE IS) and any other rich person. If I were leading any country or religion and i at the time of appointment lived in a single story house I wouldn't move to a mansion I would*&^%ing stay right there where i was living. The fact that I have a title doesn't give me the right to rub it into everybody's face. If one of the rich people want to get me to give up all my stuff then there is one thing I have to say to that......"THE BEST WAY TO LEAD IS TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE so.. START SELLING YOUR STUFF BUSH!"
Also if he is the SERVANT of the servants of God how come he orders people around? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of being a servant (Sorry if I am attacking don't trul mean to just kinda edgy right now)
History is nothing but a fable that has been agreed upon.
-Napolean Bonaparte

(Edited by Sangreal on 09-28-2004 18:09)

I don't understand why you're getting so defensive Jade. No one in this thread has attacked the Catholic Church. I, myself, am a Catholic and whole heartedly applaude the Church's charity throughout their history. That doesn't take away from the negative things in the Catholic Church. That includes the Pope's hypocrisy in his view that the imbalance of wealth needs to be addressed.

You seem to be of the opinion that any criticism of the Catholic Church is immoral and implies the person is anti-Catholic. I don't share that belief. While I suppose the Catholic Church in most of its endeavors, I'm more concerned with what the man upstairs is thinking. When Jesus instructed his faithful to live a life of povererty I don't think he meant to give up all possessions and live with your rich uncle. Thats just one man's opinion though.

MD. Don't worry that I ever take comments on post personal. I don't feel attacked at all. If I come across as combative, forgive me. Its true to say, you are on the outside looking in at an institution that can only be seen in a secular view if you do not understand and practice it or read Catholic teaching on it. The essence of catholicism is so deeply personal, it requires much inner light to comprehend it in its fullness. The spiritualism of Catholicism embodies everything from the innerself to the outerself and beyond to the ends of the universe in its sciences. All thought and answers have been justified by the great Catholic thinkers in long gone eras in the history of the church. I wish you well in your endeavor to understand Christianity.

Jestah.

Whats wrong with getting defensive? We are taught to defend our faith till death. Not go along with the majority or current trends. The Church here on earth is human, made up of human people. It errs if people in it err. But on the subject of the wealth of the church and giving its riches to the poor, it gets old and is silly. THats been argued for centuries. Find something else in it to pick on. If the church sells everything it has in artwork and buidings, and property and gives it to the poor, it won't last long. There will still be poor people in the world after its wealth is distributed. So how does this solve the problem? And I don't know where all who point to the wealth and grandure of the pope's lifestyle get their info. He is not rich and does not live rich. Where Catholics and non-catholics get this misconception is beyond me. He works extremely hard every day. Gets up at 4 am every day and goes to bed late midnite because of a heavy schedule and constant constant prayer. Why don't you cut him some slack? Being the age that he is and sick as he is, I say he deserves our prayers. Instead of finding and point out whats wrong with the church by finding fault, pray for it and Pope John Paul. Are you selling your possessions and giving the money to the poor? What are you doing to promote peace and goodwill you your neighborhood? I say, if your not doing these things then you should not point to someone who tries however much fault you find in them as human persons.

(Edited by jade on 09-30-2004 06:26)

(Edited by jade on 09-30-2004 06:35)

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Live on faith. It will sustain you.

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What's an 8-letter word for gullible?

Oh yeah...gullible...

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Ozone Asylum KILLED my inner child.

jade said

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If the church sells everything it has in artwork and buidings, and property and gives it to the poor, it won't last long. There will still be poor people in the world after its wealth is distributed. So how does this solve the problem?

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wasn't it Jesus who said, concerning the poor, that we would always have them among us, but we would not always have Him. and wasn't he also buried in a borrowed tomb? in fact, i think it actually belonged to his rich uncle.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=contradiction

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If the church sells everything it has in artwork and buidings, and property and gives it to the poor, it won't last long. There will still be poor people in the world after its wealth is distributed.

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Good to know. And along that line of reasoning I would advocate an immediate stop to all 3rd world aid, since we can't solve everything for everyone...

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Are you selling your possessions and giving the money to the poor? What are you doing to promote peace and goodwill you your neighborhood? I say, if your not doing these things then you should not point to someone who tries however much fault you find in them as human persons.

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Well, since I have not spoken out about the imbalance of wealth I see no contradiction in keeping my hard earned stuff.

To me this reminds me of the old communist states where equality was preached (one for all bla bla) but the political elite of course were more equal than others and above their own preachings.

I guess my contradiction when it comes to this is that I argue that I get to keep too little of my paycheck due to taxes used for "wealth distribution", but still give to selected charities.... Imagine that...

Jade -

There's plenty wrong with becoming so defensive in a friendly discussion. No on is attacking either you or the Catholic Church. As you point out the Church is run by humans and to err is human. To acknowledge faults and do nothing about them is just wrong. The Catholic Church is wrong to allow members of its elite to live in such luxury when they spend their time preaching about the imbalance of wealthy. Your suggestion that the Pope "does not live a rich" is nonsensical and shows the lengths you'll go to in ignoring the issue. The reality is the Pope lives the single RICHEST life, in terms of material possessions, on this planet. To suggest that because his name isn't actually on the deed of his palaces, he is poor is as silly as suggesting that Bill Gates' children are poor.

There's no real reason to carry on any more of a discussion with you though. Your replies throughout this thread have been irrational, nonsensical, and in some cases outright stupid. There's a big difference between having faith and blindly following something. You seem to equate one with the other.

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What about protestant pastors who have riches and mansions and own stock in the millions and arrive at their Sunday services in limos? Most televangelist pocket millions and that is contrary to scripture.

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i'm curious, what would be an appropriate amount of wealth for someone to have according to what you feel scripture says?

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Well, what would Jesus say?

I think that is the question, right? If Jesus was alive today, what would he say about the Pope?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

http://www.catholic.net/global_catholic_news/template_news.phtml?news_id=56551&channel_id=2

Wealth of the Vatican has long been a subject of scruitny by anti-catholics, secualrist and protestants for years. It gets old and really
is senseless to make statements referring to its enormous wealth and not understand the many complicated systems under which the pope and the Vatican operate funds? For one thing, it sends missionaries all over the world. Maintains vatican city and doesn't charge tourist or sell it articles to make money and pockets wealth for each of the cardianls or bishops, arch bishops for vacation homes, etc. All monies are used to evangelize globally, just like other denominations do.

Fig.

Well, what do you think is too much? Should pastors ever pocket millions for their personal yachts, vacation homes, portfolios. Do they deserve them? Or should they live on a small stipend and give all of it back to the church needs.

(Edited by jade on 10-02-2004 18:46)

Jade - that is all irrelevent. It's a technicality.

The point is very simply that the opulent living conditions are quite enough to classify as "wealthy" whether or not the pope or bishops actualyl own their surroundings.

The immense wealth that was required to build the buildings of the vatican, and decorate them so absurdly lavish a manner is truly mind boggling.

In fact, some of the church's practices while trying to raise the money to build such splendor is the main reason the reformation ever happened...

~shrug~

As for that article - yeah...big deal. The US government has a huge deficit too. That has mothing to do with reality...

i dunno jade, i can give my personal opinion but that's not necessarily relevant to the conversation, i was curious what you felt the scriptural basis was. scripturally we're called to tithe, giving 10% of your earnings to the church. later on paul talks about having an abundance for every need, being a responsible steward so that you have money to give to others' needs. other than not having false idols (which one could certainly classify possessions and money as if they're something you put of great importance) i don't know of other bibilical "rules" dealing with how we should or shouldn't have. i once heard a speaker say something to the effect of "you shouldn't have anything you wouldn't be willing to give up" and i think that's about as succinct as it could be put.

that being said, i don't think there's anything wrong with living comfortably if you are giving as God calls you to (note i said comfortably, not lavishly, i'm not talking huge houses with fountains and dozens of sports cars). as an example, i know of a pastor who's built up a 10,000 member church after starting with 12 people, and his church gives away tens of millions every year to the homeless, missionaries, church planting, and other charities and ministries. he does drive an expensive car and he lives in a nice fairly large house, but he doesn't own six expensive cars and three nice houses. is that wrong? or has he been blessed because he's doing what God wants him to do?

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I'd say that's wrong and hypocritical.

He should have spent all that money going back to the church, and other churches.

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tntcheats - I can't tell if you're serious or joking...

Fig - IMO, it depends almost entirely on how he acquired the money to live the way he does.

If the money came from the church in the form of donations that people thought were going to help the homeless (or others), then I believe very strongly that it is wrong that he used it, no matter how much good he does.

If, on the other hand, he happens to have a good financial status independent from church sources, I see no issue whatsoever.

Again, I must reiterate: what this thread was started on was not the idea that the Pope should live in squalor! It is the simple idea that denouncing the imbalance of wealth from your extravagant summer palace is just plain old ironic and hypocritical.

That's all.

If you can't even see that, then your head is up your ass. If you feel that such irony is ok, then that's your perogative...

Jade- I think that you have it right. Or atleast almost right. The Pope is an outstanding man that does need our prayers. I would agree that the Vatican is most likely the most charitable anything in the world, and it does have to fund missionaries and evangilists too. The Pope does deserve to have some conveniences to make things easier on him so he can do more. I do agree to that humans err, and he is a human. A very important human, and one whose opinion goes a long way, but he is still human, just like us. Besides, if someone walked up to you and gave you a gift, would you give it back to them? That probably doesn't constitute for much of the money, but atleast a little. Then also, would you rather meet in a small stuff building to pray and worship, or would you rather be surrounded by luxury? That is exactly the reason why the Russians are Eastern Orthodox (I think that is the one from Byzanium) and not from the Holy Roman Empire. It was because back then the HRE was in disrepaire and they were meeting in shacks, old houses, and the like. The Russian delegates saw this and weren't pleased. Then, they went over to Byzantium and saw this building (can't remember its name (I could use some help with this story if the history scholars would like since I am completely botching it)) that was purely beautiful. It had diamonds on the walls, and they sparkled like the stars in the sky. Almost everything in it was gold. It was a very lavish and beautiful church. Guess which church the Russians decided they liked the best? It wasn't the one with rats running around in it I can tell you that. I realize that this is a very extreme story, but I am using it to prove a point. Humans are a very secular species. We don't listen. First we look, if it is enticing, then we allow the person to speak. Sometimes we can even be conned into doing something we don't want to just because it looks good. So, the Catholics realized that if they even wanted to be considered, they had to look the part of beautiful children of God. I do realize that the principle of Christianity is servitude, but even servents can have wealth. God doesn't say that he wants us to be bums. He is a father who wants to bless His children with gifts. That is why some preachers and priests have so much stuff, it is because they are blessed. I do admit that the Pope did say something contrary to what he was living, but let me tell you all something. (I'm sorry I am using this analogy Jade, but just because I am doesn't mean I have any less respect for the Pope and what he does) Jesus didn't denounce the Pharisee's teachings, just them being hypocrits. He said to do what the Pharisees say, not what they do. That is what the Pope is doing. I don't know why, but he wants people to do what he says, not what he does.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

When I'm sarcastic I'll always put a

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Ozone Asylum KILLED my inner child.

The Greek Orthodox reverence their art and beautiful buildings also. Their artwork is priceless from the days of the Romaovs. Why not pick on them too?

Their Patriarchs live as our Pope does. Though they don't have a global voice like John Paul does, meaning when the pope makes a statement, its heard around the world. The Patriarchs nonetheless are famous religious persons also. I think its because of anti-catholic resentment. And thats the only reason the post was started.

(Edited by jade on 10-04-2004 01:18)

~sigh~

does it ever get old, Jade, this constant fight against reality?

jade-

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think its because of anti-catholic resentment. And thats the only reason the post was started.

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jestah-

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I, myself, am a Catholic and whole heartedly applaude the Church's charity throughout their history.

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Jade, do you ever actually read people's posts or do you just look for keywords to get offended by? In case you hadn't noticed the one who started this thread is Catholic. Or did you miss that part? It has been stated by some, myself included that this isn't strictly a Roman Catholic deal. It isn't about "picking on" the Catholics. It is about preaching one thing and doing the other. Something the whole Christian faith and every other religion in existance is guilty of. Do you ever tire of the "poor me, my poor religion" routine? This thread was about irony. It was about a prime example of preaching one thing and doing another. Do you need a definition of irony? This thread was not about attacking the Pope... It was you who chose to believe it that way. /rant

(sorry, Jestah if I stepped on your toes...)