Topic awaiting preservation: owwwwwww.....it hurts bad (Page 1 of 3)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/15/halloween.sabbath.ap/index.html

I am left a little speechless.....

{{edit - okay, so not speechless., just immensely confused by the huge jumble of things that leap to the front of my brain at reading this!

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"That's Christ's day. You go to church on Sunday, you don't go out and celebrate the devil....

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So...it's okay for good christian folk to go out and celbrate the devil if'in' it ain't sunday????????

Arrrrggggggghhhhhhh

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That'll confuse a child."

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Oh lordy, won't it ever, when it's looked at like that!!!!

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"We don't need to confuse people with this," Councilman George Alexander said.

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No, no we surely don't.....

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The patchwork of trick-or-treat zones could work to children's advantage: Some might go out on both nights to get all the treats they can.

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ahh....now, maybe this could work out after all...


I mean.....if you have a problem with halloween on sunday. it should really be because you have a problem with halloween no matter what day it falls.....if you can "celebrate the devil" (which of course has nothing to do with what halloween has *ever* been about anyway) on a weekday........but not on sunday............you've got bigger problems than what day halloween falls on in the first place.


god help us all......







(Edited by DL-44 on 10-16-2004 03:26)

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"Moving it, that's like celebrating Christmas a week early," said Veronica Wright...

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Equating Christmas with Halloween?

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You go to church on Sunday, you don't go out and celebrate the devil.

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Little kids asking for treats is celebrating the devil? So it's OK to celebrate the devil as long as you don't do it on Sunday?

actually trick or treating isnt celebrating the devil at all, it is innocently going out and getting free candy. like come on how many kids go out and are like, im the devil worship me? how many kids really really know of/about the devil?

8 Weeks cut free
Cleaning mind: 8 bars of soap
Being hit on: One shirt and one pair of shorts
Being scared to death by Lego: Priceless

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speechless., just immensely confused

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I submit you are neither, probably more like you're shocked that you're so shocked

more silly shtuff from the Pharisees

*shakes head sadly*

WTH is going on in the States?

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Some of those silly peole need to be reminded just how much paganism is in the 'Christian' holidays.

Easter bunny with eggs?
Decorating a pine tree?
Hello!

I don't understand why Halloween spooks day is so misunderstood. Its just for pure fun. True to say some devil worshipers have used this day for their purpose. But, their is a Christian Mexican day called " Dia de los Muertos" (Day of the Dead) where families go to cemetaries and sit around the grave sites and make a feast of it. Its celebrated right after Halloween. We pray for the dead. I have seen some skelton prepared cookies for this special day. Special foods are prepared and special masses or services are said. In our church we set aside a place where parishioners bring pictures of their loved ones who have passed on and they are put around flowers and candles and sweets. Its a beautiful ceremony. Here in Houston where there is a heavy hispanic population the cemetaries are visited through out the day with flowers.

I have many fun memories of Halloween since I was a child, trick or treating till today. I went with my kids not too long ago and dressed up myself. I am big kid. We are also having a big annual Halloween with a spook house the Sat before. I think most parties will fall on Saturday anyway. Here in my subdivision there are hardly any children out anymore on this day, but people want to give candy and are waiting because they have their lights on. I think the real message of halloween is that is fun to be someone else that day and spook people out or fool people. I work for the Harrris County District Attorney's office and many offices are decorated for Halloween already wiith witch pictures, pumpkins and skeletons, etc. And these are grown adult ladies and men. So, that being said, Halloween is harmless to you if its all in fun.

http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/jking/jkdayofthedead.html

Is USA really becoming no different that Middle East?

Christians being concerned about Halloween falling on a Sunday is a waste of energy. As far as I'm concerned it's based in superstition and not sound theology.

WS and Ruski, this is really nothing new at all for this country. I'm sure if you look back to the early days of our history you will find plenty of cases similar to this.

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look back to the early days of our history you will find plenty of cases similar to this.

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Yes, I am aware of the Puritan heritage of the States, Bugs. I think just about anyone who has had high school history should be, right? Isn't stuff like Thanksgiving and Plymouth Rock and the Salem Witch trials still taught in High School?

Now, what has that got to do with now? It may not be new, but it sure is surprising to me to see it in this day and age. Maybe the Inquisition is also returning?

Or bring back the Crusades?

How about convert the Native aboriginal peoples, or put them to the sword?

I don't mean you any disrespect Bugs...but just because it has happened before, is not a reason for it to happen again.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

It's important to bear in mind that this is a story about rather isolated incidents - this is not a wide spread concern here in the US.

This kind of mentality is not only something that is 'now new', as in 'has happened before', it is something that has never gone away.

Parts of this country are truly frightening in the religious aspect. They don't call it the 'bible belt' for nothing after all...

Just a few months ago there was the issue in (georgia?) where they voted to change the term 'evolution' to 'organisms changing over time' or something like that...

There are constantly issues like this, ranging from silly to harmful in certain areas.

I was just pointing out that since this is nothing new, that comments like "WTH is going on in the States?" and "Is USA really becoming no different that Middle East?" seem out of place to me. I don't like this sort of mentality at all but I don't think it represents a widespread or serious problem in this country.

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I find it troubling but not unexpected. I feel so badly for the little kids who are brought up (brainwashed?) in a fundamentalist home. Imagine being so paranoid about God and Satan that a fun kiddie holiday is changed. Wow... I have such a hard time imagining that people actually take "demons" seriously.

I don't understand the fundamentalist mindset at all. And they're so very vocal in the US too. I can't imagine living in a town that would change Halloween - what about the non-Christians and non-religious? I guess they're stuck with the changes?

Amerasu |

Bugs you have to understand that I am still young and I was not raised or lived in the States until recently, when I just moved to Florida, Sarasota to attend college. Since I am growing up and still am full of energy I get involved in politica, religious, social, domestic issue's discussions and observations.

Honestly the only thing I used to hear about USA is how great and powerful it is and how full of freedom, education, and opportunities it is. But things are not alwasy what they are heard.

Don't get me wrong, I do acknowledge that USA is full of opportunities and it is indeed very powerful country in terms of military power....pretty much because of riches and span of the open market capitalism. Yes, indeed the real people who make this country what it is are the ones you never see or hear about. But that is only economy.

What scares me the most is how fundies here have so much power. Yes, USA has strong seperation from church and state, but most fundies are not governed by giant human institution which is full of flaws, dark history and can be easily tackled. (Hence why most catholics are pretty liberal) They are governed by their own superfluous, superstitious, irrational, overzealous minds. It's scary... they refuse to read history, they want creationism in the classroom of public schools, showing no tolerance to homosexuality, banning steam cel research because of feared superstition that dominates their minds. No wonder they want to bad everything objectively because they are not capable of teaching their own offsprings comprehension of reality, humanity and the world that surrounds us. They throw away constitution of the USA out of the window and make Jesus Christ Supreme Ruler of the land (Alabama).


I couln't believe when I heard that Missouri still does not acknowledge Texas as official state of USA. If you got a woman pregnant in Texas you can move to Missouri and not pay any child support. (It happened to my friend)


See how some of the members here fanaticaly express their desire to ban abortion. It's crazy! what good will it do? Women are not going to stop practicing it, they will do so in even worse conditions underground and "illigaly".
Do I need to point out how many people have desire to eliminate "all the muslims"? Some baptist's church even call them evil, spawns of satan.
What tolerance and act does it show? No different than the terrorist themself, no different to what Nazis did.

I see alot of "rebellion" going on amongs modern youth and their fear of isolation, wanting to be loved, confusion, practice of sex at younger ages, consumprion of drugs and superstition desires, lack of parental involvement in their lives and how parents let TV and streets educate their kids.

No wonder fundies are trying to bring back the morals and values of dark ages, which causes fear confusion and lack of tolerance
to others. Companies, Television stations, video game industries and other products here are sued becasue of peoples' stupidity.



And since I am becoming a resident of the USA, I will do all I can to make this place a better country, I will try to be a spokesman of my generation rather than trying to bash particular side, or migrate and look for "better" place. There is no better place, we have to make it better. Things have to change, vaules we pass on have to change, the view on the world has to change, the way of thinking has to change.


Just keep in mind, this is not attack insult or whatever to any particular group(s), it was not rant either. Just an objective analysis on how I see society for now.

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Just an objective analysis on how I see society for now.

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umm, yeah. completely objective

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Ouch, umm, yeah I guess I already had somehting else in mind by the time I finished typing. Ignore the last sentence, or replace it with "subjective" if you will *shrugs*

Wow that was long Ruski (almost as long as some of mine).

First off, this whole thing is a little wierd because I have discussed with many that Sunday is not really the Sabbath, just a day to worship God. The real Sabbath, according to the Jews who started it, is Saturday not Sunday. Any way, I agree that saying something is bad on one day and not bad the next is a little foolish. It is like waiting until 12:00 on Sunday to drink beer. But I see the reasoning behind it. The main thing is that these people are seeing many religious things taken away from them, and they are losing many important religious battles, so why not go for an easy hit? They need something to stay sacred in the day and age of thinking. That is chosen as Sunday.

Now back to Ruski...
You made some good points, and I do recognize that some things are getting out of hand, but I think you and I see on two different planes. I do understand that fighting the fight against abortion and sex and drugs is hard, nearly impossible, but it is the job of Christians to fight it. Abortion is killing a baby, sex is adultry, and drugs are bad for your health. They are all bad things. (stem-cell research isn't a superstition, it goes under the same category as abortion) Christians are finally waking up and realizing how far down the drain the United States is going on good morals. Even some countries that were previously looked down on have better morals than us.

As for Creationism, it really should be reinstated in the curriculum as long as Evolution is. Creationsim and Evolutionism are just two theories to how the world was created. One should not be hidden from children more than the other should. They both have been justified yet not completely, and until there is a law of how the Earth was created, then the theories should all be taught.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Gideon said:

do understand that fighting the fight against abortion and sex and drugs is
hard, nearly impossible, but it is the job of Christians to fight it. Abortion
is killing a baby, sex is adultry, and drugs are bad for your health. They are
all bad things. (stem-cell research isn't a superstition, it goes under the same
category as abortion) Christians are finally waking up and realizing how far
down the drain the United States is going on good morals

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I have nothing to say to this...for me you simply demonstrate just what I have mentioned above.
You are not relizing anything, you are simply refusing to think and take responsibility raising your children.

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Gideon said:

As for Creationism, it really should be reinstated in the curriculum as long as
Evolution is. Creationsim and Evolutionism are just two theories to how the
world was created. One should not be hidden from children more than the other
should. They both have been justified yet not completely, and until there is a
law of how the Earth was created, then the theories should all be
taught.

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Really? well, I am not going to start the argument, but lets put it this way:



edit: first of all you show sheer amount of ignorance on biological evolution, but that's ok we are not born with knowledge.

You say that there are different theories, right ? And they all should be taught...To apply the concept of logic... well, then why don't we teach Native American creationism theory? or Ancient Greek/Roman? Why not Mayan? Or Messapotanian, thats where Jewsih actually barrowed from alot, you know? ( Yup, try few art history books. The development of Jewish influence in literature from Mesapotaniasn, Egyptians and other cultures.)

Or perhaps that aliens created us?!!! and we should worship them and have faith in them because if we don't they will blast us with a gian laser like in "Independent Day"

All those ideas fall under the same category.

If you put Jewish mythological text (and refuse to look at it's development as by modern history ) in par with modern biology...that exactly what scares me.



Here is an Interesting comparison of USA and Western Europe in terms of religiosity.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2843/is_2_28/ai_114090210/print



I hope USA someday will be as influenced as Western Europe.

edit: tag

(Edited by Ruski on 10-17-2004 07:39)

(Edited by Ruski on 10-17-2004 07:47)

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Evolutionism are just two theories to how the
world was created.

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Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact. The exact model of Evolution is a theory. I wish some people would finally get that straight.

Bugs, in my travels and living in all the different parts of the United States (the 4 cardinal directions...I have been in 48 states, in all), I have never, ever heard of banning Halloween, just because it falls on a Sunday. Thus, my reaction. Maybe I just didn't contact the right people, or something.

Now, a few refusing to celebrate wouldn't catch my attention (in fact that is quite normal) - but whole communities? That is something entirely different.

And DL, first you say

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I am left a little speechless.....

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Then you say

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This kind of mentality is not only something that is 'now new', as in 'has happened before', it is something that has never gone away.

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If you are aware that this kind of mentality has been around since the Founding, then why does this sort of thing leave you speechless?

I must say, the article surprised the living hell out of me. And since I have been out of touch with the country for over 12 years now, I asked what the hell is going on over there.

And that is why I replied the way I did so you didn't get too alarmed

I've known a few people in my time that would favor banning Halloween if enough of their fellow citizens agreed. I think I understand the mentality pretty well.

The funny thing is that there are plenty of people in this country willing to impose their views on others through laws and it is certainly not limited to religious types living in the bible belt.

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The funny thing is that there are plenty of people in this country willing to impose their views on others through laws and it is certainly not limited to religious types living in the bible belt.

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Very good point, Bugs! Well said!

I'm afraid I don't understand your confusion, WS...


Yes, this kind of mentality always suprises me to some extent, and yes this kind of pure ignorance is frightening.

The point in my second post is that this is an isolated thing, and this is not a "suddenly the US is becoming this way" kind of thing.

~shrug~

Thanks for the clarification, DL. That pretty much clears up any confusion that I had.

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WebShaman said:

Evolution is not a theory, it is a fact

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Evolution is a theory based on facts that were discovered, not the other way around.

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Theory- 1. A speculative plan 2. a formation of underlying principles of certain observed phenomena which has been verified to some degree 3. the principles of an art or science rather than its practice 4. a conjecture or guess.

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Ruski said:

You are not relizing anything, you are simply refusing to think and take
responsibility raising your children.

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First off, I have no children, not yet, and if and when I do I will try my hardest to be a good father. I am a child of my parents, though, and they raised my well, I would say.

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Ruski said:

first of all you show sheer amount of ignorance on biological evolution

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Except I did whole heartedly believe in Evolution and Darwin's theory throughout Junior and half of Senior High. I know Evolution. I used to be a Christian advocate for it even. But, I had an epiphany, and I read Genesis, and I listened to what a very intelligent man had to say, and I realized that Creation is a plausible theory.

As for teaching all of those other theories of how we got here: 1.) I did get taught most of them in school and 2.) if they have been as thoroughly researched and contemplated as Evolution and Creation has been, then sure why not? Information is not to be kept from society. That is what freedom of the press is all about. Why shouldn't all these researched theories be taught to children. Keeping information from them is about as bad as saying that getting hit by a train won't kill them.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon, you are wrong. Period.

We have debated this before. Evolution is fact. The actual mechanisms of Evolution are currently in the theory stage. If you so wish, I can dig through all my stuff, and demonstrate this to you.

You obviously are not aware of what Evolution really is, otherwise, you would know that it is a fact. I think you are getting the different theoretical models of Evoution confused with Evolution itself. No amount of belief, can disprove this. It can only deny the truth.

I'm curious, as to what has blinded you. You mention Creationism, that from the Bible. I would be very interested to know, why you can't accept Evolution in a Creation-type frame, as Bugs does.

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WebShaman said:

The actual mechanisms of Evolution are currently in the theory stage.

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That is what I have been trying to say. Evolution is a Theory based on facts. Nothing more nothing less.

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WebShaman said:

You obviously are not aware of what Evolution really is

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I am whole heartedly aware of what Evolution is. I am hitting the topic of how we came into being. I just can't see the how we could have evolved from some sort of soupy thing over millions of years.

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WebShaman said:

you can't accept Evolution in a Creation-type frame

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Well, yes and no. I accept Macro-Evolution, not Micro-Evolution. Macro is a horse with tall legs changing into a horse with shorter legs or the other way around. I don't believe that a horse come from a frog millions of years ago (or a fish, or whatever else it was).

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Of course, more important than anything -

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Creationsim and Evolutionism are just two theories to how the world was created.

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'evolution' has absolutely nothing to do with how the world was created.

It has to do with the simple concept of species changing over the course of generations, usually in adaptation to their environment.

How this has anythnig whatsoever to do with how the world was created is beyond me.

'Creationsim' should be taught in school, I agree. But it most certainly does not belong in a science class - it belongs in a literature class or a mythology class, or an 'ancient cultures' class, etc..

Why can't it be in a science class? It has been researched as much as Evolution has been. It just came to a different conclusion.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Ok, time to dig out all my stuff on this...*sigh* I'll post back, when I get it all together.

Ok - Evolution is a Fact and a Theory and The Evolution Fact FAQ and Evolution: Fact and Theory

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Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

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And from Stephan Jay Gould Evolution as Fact and Theory

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The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution. First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice. Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."

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Furthermore, we need to decide, what Evolution's meaning is, when we speak of Fact and Theory.

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"Evolution is only a theory; it hasn't been proved."

First, we should clarify what "evolution" means. Like so many other words, it has more than one meaning. Its strict biological definition is "a change in allele frequencies over time." By that definition, evolution is an indisputable fact. Most people seem to associate the word "evolution" mainly with common descent, the theory that all life arose from one common ancestor. Many people believe that there is enough evidence to call this a fact, too. However, common descent is still not the theory of evolution, but just a fraction of it (and a part of several quite different theories as well). The theory of evolution not only says that life evolved, it also includes mechanisms, like mutations, natural selection, and genetic drift, which go a long way towards explaining how life evolved.

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And as DL has already commented on, Evolution has nothing to do with how the world was created.

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I just can't see the how we could have evolved from some sort of soupy thing over millions of years.

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Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean that it is not true. I take it, it is easier for you to believe in Magic and Myth, then it is for you to believe in a natural process?

How strange.

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Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean that it is not true.

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i'll be quoting you on that in any faith discussions we have in the future, just fyi

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

^ hehe

Gideon: something having been researched does not make it science. All ancient literature has been researched to verying degrees, most often to very extensive degrees. But it's still literature - not sceince.

As Ruski pointed out, if we are to take a religious/mythological story of the creation of the world, and introduce in a science class, then we must include the greek accounts, the norse accounts, the various asian accoutns, those of the mayans, the incas, the Hopi, etc etc etc....

Before you know it, we'll be sacrificing goats to stop the gods from plaguing us with earthquakes again.

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i'll be quoting you on that in any faith discussions we have in the future, just fyi

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As long as it is in context, sure.

For example, the soul, or spirit...my people believe that everything has one. Science hasn't been able to prove or unprove this yet.

(Edited by WebShaman on 10-18-2004 23:09)

...and God? WS, I think we should quote that in or out of context from now until the end of time I love it!

...and now let's go back to our regularly scheduled discussions.

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Worried About Witches

The Puyallup School District (search) in Washington State has canceled its annual Halloween parade and banned all other Halloween activities, insisting the costumes may be offensive to real witches and followers of Wicca (search) ? a form of Paganism.

A school district spokeswoman, quoted by local KOMO-TV, says, "Witches [masks] with pointy noses and things like that are not respective symbols of the Wiccan religion, and so we want to be respectful."

But, aside from that, school officials say Halloween activities are a waste of valuable class time and too expensive for some to take part in.

? FOX News' Michael Levine contributed to this report
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136303,00.html

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What a treat that we would actually get the same kind of action from the secular fascists as well in the same season. This just confirms what I said earlier about there being a lot of people in this country that love to do the "impose my views on others" mambo

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Wow.

Just.......wow.....

I don't have much to add to the conversation, but to say these school districts need some serious work in the public relations departments.
Who do they have talking to these reporters?
Are their press releases written by the grammer school library assistant?
...or maybe a 7th grade writing project?

What a joke.
If Tylenol can come out of a poisoning scare with boosted sales, certainly these idiots -- the ones educating our children -- can cancel a bloody holiday party without becoming the laughing stock of the country.

off to send my resume...

*Shakes head*

Hoboy.

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warjournal said:

Some of those silly peole need to be reminded just how much paganism is in the 'Christian' holidays.Easter bunny with eggs?Decorating a pine tree?Hello!

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Heh, I agree Warjournal.

For example :

Hallowe'en, otherwise known as Samhain.

Then there is Candlemas aka Christmas aka Imbolc or maybe it's just the Yule holiday.

Hallowe'en and Samhain.

Also this page has this quote:

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Pope Gregory II moved the christian holiday of "all Hollows Eve" from May 13 to November 1st to coincide with the Feast of Samhain. This was an effort by the catholic church to downplay the pagan festival. Hopefully, they reasoned, it would replace Samhain and the pagan celebration would fade away. The pagan festival continued to be celebrated and Halloween evolved largely from it. Today, the Catholic church tolerates the Halloween, recognizing it is a fun holiday and not intended to hold religious or other supernatural beliefs or religion.

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Those are just the quickie links I grabbed off a quick google search.

_____________________

le coeur du feu
Qui sème le vent récolte la tempête!

Like they say : " Only in America "