Topic awaiting preservation: Evolution vs. Creationism (Page 4 of 13)

First of all, my reference to "keep your beliefs to yourself" refer to forcing, either through pograms (like government institutions) or Laws.

Yes, you are sure I am "making a mistake" and you "want to save me". I don't need to be "saved". Worry about yourself and your family, and I will do the same for mine. You have to accept the consequences for your actions, and I for mine. Leave it at that. And don't even dare think about trying to brainwash my children with religious stuff. When they are old enough, they can decide for themselves. So, such doesn't belong in the schools. If I want my children to learn religious stuff, I can send them to Church, or to a religous school.

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If people are dying for it there has to be something good about it.

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Man, that is just so wrong. People have been doing things and dying for them for a long time, and there wasn't always something good about it. Consider the Germans in WWI and WWII, for a minute! Why do I have to point stuff like this out to you? You should see the holes of logic in your words yourself.

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If you look at nature for purpose, the purpose is this: live, eat, have sex, teach your offspring in your old ways, then die. That is what nature does.

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No, that is not ALL that Nature does! It grows, adapts and EVOLVES!.

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When men, women, and children are willing to stake their lives on claims of faith it becomes a very serious issue. If people are dying for it there has to be something good about it.

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Clearly then you have no problems with 9/11. Because that is exactly what they too beleive/d.
as they plowed those planes into.....

And your belief would be different... how????

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You still have a choice, and unfortunately many people choose to "go to Hell."

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First, let's look at that from the intimidation angle already mentioned.

"Do as I say and go to Heaven as your reward."
"Don't do what I say and go to Hell as your punishment."

How about this:

"Do as I say and go to Heaven as your reward."
"Don't do what I say and I'll just leave you be."

See the difference?
Intimidation being used to sway, coerce, and/or control.

Might as well be a mugger with a gun to your 'nads.
Sorry, but that's not love.

Now let's look at it from a choices or freedom point of view.

"You can go to Heaven or Hell."

I don't want to go to Heaven or Hell.
I want my own little corner of the cosmos to call my own.
Where's my choice?

If God and Lucifer came down and ran for president of the USA, I wouldn't vote for either.
I would just as soon move to Canada, Australia... or the Bahamas.
Now that's freedom.

(Edited by warjournal on 12-10-2004 21:14)

Let's assume the Bible is the Word of God. I don't buy it, but, for the sake of this little side-branch in the discussion, let us assume it as truth.
Now, based on that first assumption, it is common to attach divinity status to this character Jesus, in this book, the Word of God.

So now we have:
1) Bible is the Word of God
2) Jesus is God (or, at least, a part of God)

In this Bible, Jesus OFTEN uses parables, metaphors and allegory (just to name three) to make points about (respectively) repentance, faith and forgiveness (again, just to name three).

So, here we have several instances of your God using stories that, while not "True" (in the scientific, data collecting type of way true), provide insight into a seperate "Truth" (in the spiritual, theological, religious sort of way truth).

Why, then, is it so bloody difficult for you (Gideon specifically, others more generally) to accept your God may have used that same tactic elsewhere?

(Edited by mobrul on 12-10-2004 21:49)

^ an argument I have brought many times and received no real answer, from gideon or others.

^ Same with me on the adolf bit... no one will take it on even if you change the 'killer' if you will, to a non-believer but leave the jew. Some come up with variations on the old '...well we're all trying for the same goal but just taking different paths.. is all.' Come on! The jews still ain't gettin'in according to the christians.

I give the jews one step up on the xians..and it sorta plays to the old 'joke'....'only gentiles buy retail.' Want to know god...be with god. Well then...Talk to god directly...forget the middleman.

Members of my family are hardcore ... have been since pre-teen years...they're now approaching 80. Nearly 50 of those years were in the ministry...parish priest. Hardly a day goes by when I don't hear...'...isn't the lord wonderful.'etc etc. I reply... 'when god lets the jews in...let me know.' The prayers start before thier other foot hits the floor.

um, i've often pointed out that scripture needs to be taken in context with specific attention to the audience it was intended for. i have no problem with some scripture being interpreted as metaphor of some type, but carefully interpreted. declaring biblical content as metaphor or something similar too liberally can lend to a skewed interpretation by some who might want an easy "out" from a behavior or lifestyle they might not want to modify.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

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Emperor said:

then the books would just be someone telling you how it is.

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That is the major difference. People are here and now trying to figure out what happened back then. The Bible was written by God who was there back then. He saw it. He told us about it. Obviously the Bible doesn't have all the scientifical theories, laws, and philosophies in it. If God wanted them there He could do it. He meerly put the basic foundations down. Creation Science, and any other Christian Science for that matter, is trying to figure out the nit picky things: what happened to dinosaurs/dragons, when was the flood, where was Noah? You are absolutely correct, Creation science takes already provided truths in the Bible and tries to match them up to more indepth theories found now.

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Emperor said:

As I've said you can't compare apples and oranges.

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Apples are red and have a sweet taste to them. Oranges are orange (as their name suggests) and are sweet as well. Apples have a skin on them that is quite tasty, while oranges have one that is not as tasty, but still nutritious. Do I need to go on?

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NoJive said:

And that 'ticket in' bit is the absolute essence of christianity. You can
interpret, misinterpret read whatever you will into everything and anything else
in the bible but if you don't 'beleive' that... you are not a
christian.

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Absolutely.

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NoJive said:

Closed shop equals 'closed mind/s.'

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Yup. Closed about that subject 100%. Exclusive not inclusive.

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NoJive said:

It is the one 'order' in the entire bible you cannot disobey or you my friend
are not a christian.

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Actually, that is not much of an order. God doesn't not force anyone to accept Christ as their Savior (see 6,000+ other religions out there). He is meerly trying one last ditch effort to save His children. He is not a company commander to us, He is our Father. He loves us, and wants children who love Him back. He doesn't want you to come in Heaven if you don't want to be there. That is why He sent His Son down to Earth. God came to Earth as a little baby to die for us. To take the bullet for us. He is no evil God who sits and laughs at those diying. He cries.

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John 11:35 Jesus wept.

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He wept for a man who had died. Not that he was dead, because Jesus just moments later raised him from the dead, but because he had to die. Because this man had sinned, and had therfore earned death. He wept because Lazarus had to die from what he had done. Does that sound like a God who is ordering His children around to you?

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DL-44 said:

The only actual purpose for us is the same as any other species - recreate and
die.

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Wow, what a great world we live in.

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DL-44 said:

The idea that we are not the center of the universe is simply appalling to large
numbers of people.

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Actually according to the laws of physics, I can be the center of the universe through the laws of perspective. (It just works better if I'm not)

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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WebShaman said:

Worry about yourself and your family

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I am Webshamman, I am.

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WebShaman said:

Leave it at that

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I don't want to leave you without the knowledge of what you are missing.

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WebShaman said:

No, that is not ALL that Nature does! It grows, adapts and
EVOLVES!.

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That's right, then they die.

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WebShaman said:

Why do I have to point stuff like this out to you? You should see the holes of
logic in your words yourself.

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You're right, bad point.

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warjournal said:

"Don't do what I say and I'll just leave you be."

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He does "just leave you be." He allows you to reap what you sow. The thing is that He can't let anyone with sin enter the kingdom of Heaven. That is that. The other alternative is since they sinned and broke some easy rules, they have to be cast away from Heaven. That is Hell. I don't even know what Hell will be like, but with a beast like Satan in it, it can't be too fun.

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warjournal said:

If God and Lucifer came down and ran for president of the USA

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Actually, Lucifer is already president of many souls, and soon the world, so there is no where else to go.

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warjournal said:

Might as well be a mugger with a gun to your 'nads.Sorry, but that's not
love.

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No, muggers don't have love, but God does. Let me ask you a question, what would your perfect world be like?

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mobrul said:

Why, then, is it so bloody difficult for you

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Well, because God didn't make that a parable, metaphor, or allegory. It was the beginning. God uses symbols in parables and metaphors, but what symbols where there in Genesis? If those first few were parables, why not the rest of the Bible laid out in that format? It is because it is just so hard for people to believe in things they cannot see. Things they haven't experienced. There was no question when Jesus was around that He was there. Now people doubt if He even lived! Some people think that is a scam. Some think the moon landing is a scam. Some think the holocaust is a scam. Some think Shadarack, Meshack, and Abendego (bad spelling) coming out of the furnace unscathed is a scam. You take your pick. It is all about faith, and I have faith that my God didn't lie to me. Because if Genesis is wrong, then it is an out-right lie.

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NoJive said:

'when god lets the jews in...let me know.'

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He is knocking on their door. They are the ones not letting Him in.

As for Hitler, God would love to allow even a man as scarred as Hitler into His presence if Hitler would have allowed God into His. I have a hunch that Hitler may not have done that though.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 12-24-2004 20:33)

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Wow, what a great world we live in.

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Ah, right! Good point - so let's create a better purpose for ourselves. afterall, we *must* be the center of the universe, and the whole reason for creation, right?



(which of course was my point in saying that in the first palce - people can't accept our limited purpose, and have found countless forms of self-aggrandizement to protect our fragile egos and comfort our weak spirits...)

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Gideon said:

quote:NoJive said:

'when god lets the jews in...let me know.'


He is knocking on their door. They are the ones not letting Him in.

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Of course, you must consider the possibility (assuming the existence of god and all that...) that the jews are correct, and jesus was not the messiah, and all you christians have been wasting your time following a false prophet....

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DL-44 said:

afterall, we *must* be the center of the universe, and the whole reason for
creation, right?

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Why do you think people need that? The Bible says that God put those feelings into every man's heart. If not from God, where does it come from? Ego is not the right answer because an ego must have a starting point. Where do you think it comes from? (This is a real question, not something sarcastic.)

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DL-44 said:

jesus was not the messiah, and all you christians have been wasting your time
following a false prophet

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It is one possibility that Jesus is not the Messiah. That He was an imposter who just did amazing miracles. Many prophets of old did stuff like that. It is also just coincidence that He fulfills all the Bible prophecies laid out in the Old Testament. Let's say that all those are just coincidences, and that He really wasn't a Messiah. Then all those men (and women) who followed and are following and will follow are all fools. We are all stupid gits, and we deserved to be smacked. Good thing that is not true, or else I would be in trouble.

You see, I have faith that my God will deliver me from all the evils of this world. There will be a day I won't have to even think about evil, because it won't exist. I have no fear of death either, you know why? Because God won't let me die until I am finished with His work on this Earth. If you were to try and kill me, God won't allow it unless He needed my death for a reason. I don't really have to worry because staying here with my friends and family and working for God is great, but Heaven and later His Earthly Kingdom is much, much better.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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If you were to try and kill me, God won't allow it unless He needed my death for a reason.

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Pure and simple - bullshit.

I saw and heard similar comments in the first Gulf War - from one who then stepped on a landmine *boom* I guess God was calling...another survived a lot of stuff, without a scratch - and then was killed the next day when a hummer overturned. And then there were those who didn't give a rat's ass about god, and lived through it.

Really Gideon, do you even think before you post such crap?

It has become quite obvious that Gideon is here to preach and is not trying to learn anything from what any of us have to say. He keeps using the same arguments over and over without paying heed to anything else except what has been drilled into his head from his religious instruction.

^ Yes, I am coming to the same conclusion myself. What a waste of time and effort, this has all been.

Maybe at least some other people reading this have gotten something out of it.

Waste of time? Not at all - unless your goal has been to convert gideon...

There are a lot of people who have contirubuted to this conversation, on all sides, with intelligence and purpose.

Gideon has proven himself to be ignorant in just about all respects, IMHO. Not because he won't accept what we say, but because he has very decidedly closed himself off to learning in general for the sake of what he thinks he already knows...

That's his loss.

I had no hopes of "converting" anyone - I had hopes that Gideon was "leaving his communication" channels open, which he obviously was not (in other words - of starting a dialog, an open dialog where ideas and information could be exchanged, not dogma and close-mindedness). That was the "waste of time and effort" that I described - I certainly did not mean all the others who contributed to this thread (or the thread itself, for that matter).

I believe this thread has done more than serve its purpose, and I applaud most of those who contributed to it.

Sorry, wasn't finished.

(Edited by Gideon on 12-28-2004 23:33)

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WebShaman said:

I saw and heard similar comments in the first Gulf War - from one who then
stepped on a landmine *boom* I guess God was calling...another survived a lot of
stuff, without a scratch - and then was killed the next day when a hummer
overturned. And then there were those who didn't give a rat's ass about god, and
lived through it.

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It is very interesting why God does things like that isn't it? He allows His children to die. Allows those that have been saved, and trust in Him to pass away. Friends and family, all will eventually die. Why?

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briggl said:

It has become quite obvious that Gideon is here to preach and is not trying to
learn anything from what any of us have to say.

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Not really, I have learned more than you realize. I learn so much from you all, I just wish that you were able to learn something from me, but I don't think much I say is getting through to you.

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briggl said:

He keeps using the same arguments over and over without paying heed to anything
else except what has been drilled into his head from his religious
instruction.

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Gideon said:

quote:

WebShaman said:Why do I have to point stuff like this out to you?
You should see the holes of logic in your words yourself.


You're right, bad point.

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WebShaman said:

Yes, I am coming to the same conclusion myself. What a waste of time and effort,
this has all been.

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Why is it a waste? You haven't been able to change what I believe? Is that why you consider it a waste?

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DL-44 said:

Not because he won't accept what we say, but because he has very
decidedly closed himself off to learning in general for the sake of what he
thinks he already knows

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Let me ask you something. If someone says that they just found out that all pencils would float up if left alone for long enough, would you believe them? Why?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Let me ask you something. If someone says that they just found out that all pencils would float up if left alone for long enough, would you believe them? Why?

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Now that's got to be the stupidest thing Gideon has said so far!

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You haven't been able to change what I believe? Is that why you consider it a waste?

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No. That was never the point. And I have patiently explained many times before (and so have others) what it is about. I'm not interested in explaining the same things, over, and over again, nor am I interested in going through the same "points" that you make over and over again. You fail to understand, that all of your "points" are not really your won - they are those of the religous establishment, and many here have already faced and answered them before.

Would you try to teach us 1+1=2 ? (though in your case, it is often 1+1=3). Is it any wonder that we don't "learn" anything from you? We have heard it all before, ad infinit.
At least Bugs brought something new with his beliefs, that gave us a grounds for discussion, and supported that with his own thoughts and points. You just repeat things from the bible and from the religious establishment like a parrot, then you shrug your shoulders when we point that out and say "I don't know any better". The point is, when it comes to something like this, you should!

*shakes head*

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It is very interesting why God does things like that isn't it?

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No, not in the least.
The reason this partcular issue is not "intersting" is that there is simply no evidence whatsoever to suggest that "god" is "letting" anyone live or die (or do anything esle for that matter).

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Let me ask you something. If someone says that they just found out that all pencils would float up if left alone for long enough, would you believe them? Why?

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If you can give any sort of coherent reason why this quetion is the slightest bit relevant, I might answer it. As it is I can only agree with briggl's comment...

So Webshaman, you think that I am meerly a mindless person, who just repeates things I have heard? So you are accusing me of listening to arguments, facts, truths, and lies, and repeating those I thought to be most relevant? Isn't that a little hypocritical? You do know there aren't too many original thoughts out there right? Most of them are either pre-esthablished, or are just built on something that has already happened. All I have done is repeated to you what I have heard, read, and seen, and all you have done is repeate to me what you have heard, read, and seen. Isn't that what discussions, debates, etc. are all about? Repeating facts, trying them, and seeing if they fit to pre-existing truths?

Anyway, enough rambling. Webshaman, I am sorry if I keep repeating things that you have already heard and dismissed as "superstitious, religious dogma." I guess I just looked into it and found somethings that were very interesting to me personally, and was trying to share them with you.

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WebShaman said:

At least Bugs brought something new with his beliefs, that gave us a grounds for
discussion, and supported that with his own thoughts and points.

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So are you saying that since Bugs's beliefs were a mixture of the Bible and the world, then they were closer so that you could have a base to sift in them? I'm sorry if my belief that the Bible is true doesn't fit in your beliefs. My discussions stem from that. My opinion is that my opinion pales in comparison to that of God's. If you are so adamant on getting my personal opinion on things then ask me. I will give it to you, but you may not like what I have to say.

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DL-44 said:

No, not in the least. The reason this partcular issue is not "intersting" is
that there is simply no evidence whatsoever to suggest that "god" is
"letting"
anyone live or die (or do anything esle for that matter).

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Humor me for a moment here DL, let's say that God does exist, and that those who accept His gift are now His children, then why do you think He would allow them to die? He has all the power to stop it, why would He let them die? Don't be synical, think about it.

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DL-44 said:

If you can give any sort of coherent reason why this quetion is the slightest
bit relevant, I might answer it. As it is I can only agree with briggl's
comment...

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Just answer it, I promise I am going somewhere good with it.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

(Edited by Gideon on 12-31-2004 00:11)

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You do know there aren't too many original thoughts out there right? Most of them are either pre-esthablished, or are just built on something that has already happened. All I have done is repeated to you what I have heard, read, and seen, and all you have done is repeate to me what you have heard, read, and seen. Isn't that what discussions, debates, etc. are all about? Repeating facts, trying them, and seeing if they fit to pre-existing truths?

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There are as many original, individual thoughts out there, as there are people. It is just that few dare to really express their true selves, or are strong enough to believe in themselves.

As for the "repeating" - Gideon, I don't need the repeating of information from you. I never did, and I never will. As for what I have said to you? You say that is what I have heard, read and seen? No, not only that. If you can't see the difference, then so be it. I can't make blind eyes see. And no, that is not what discussions, debates, etc are all about.

Your reply has shown me that not only are you blind, but you also do not understand the basic underlying principles of communication and the transfer of ideas, opinions, and thoughts.

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So are you saying that since Bugs's beliefs were a mixture of the Bible and the world, then they were closer so that you could have a base to sift in them?

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No, that is not what I am saying! Bugs believes deeply, and I disagree with his conclusions, but his conclusions ARE WELL THOUGHT OUT AND RATIONAL!

That is the difference between his stance and yours. Your position is ILL-THOUGHT OUT AND IRRATIONAL!

Do you understand that? Do I need to somehow put that in simpler words?

*UC wanders in sleepily wiping eye boogers from his... cheek? How'd they get there? he says;
"Huh, gotta talk to the Master about our pillows... Somethings wrong...

Wait! Someones been in my cell!? WHERE'S MY TE..er LITERATURE!?

DAMMIT, DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!

MY GOD WILL SMITE YOU WITH THE TERRIBLE HANDS OF JUSTICE!!

YOU ARE ALL HEATHENS!!!

HEATHENS!!!

H>>E>>>A>>>T>>>H>>E>>>ACK!

What was that?

Uh oh, he's coming! You're all in for it now!

MUHAHAHAHAHA! You'll never catch me!"

*UC runs screaming down the hall, poking people in the eyes as he passes them*

______________
Is This Thing On?

Webbing; the stuff that sticks to your face.

Gideon, were you to sit down and have a face to face with you god over what you think he means in every passage of you bible, and were he to give you an iron clad interpretation to follow and then you started to spout off all of these ideas your arguements might hold some water. You are spouting random ideas from a book that relies on individual interpretation and not even bothering to do any interpreting. The devil and the scripture and all that.

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If you are so adamant on getting my personal opinion on things then ask me. I will give it to you, but you may not like what I have to say.

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Your opinion is what everyone has been asking for, and since noone seems to like what you have been saying so far so I don't think you have much to lose by actually being honest with your thoughts and beliefs instead of proclaiming all of the things you aspire towards.

Dan @ Code Town

(Edited by WarMage on 12-31-2004 17:23)

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Gideon said:

quoteL-44 said:

Yep, that's where you take something you don't understand and say "god did it!".
=)
That's the idea.
Seriously, though, it is actually a "Godly" miracle (at least the one I
am refering to) becasue it was prayed about. It wasn't just
spontaneous, and happened, then we said "Praise God!" We said "Praise
God" because we knew it was Him and not some other "supernatural force."

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So what do you make of this then?:

www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,142769,00.html

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org | Justice for Pat Richard | FAQs: Emperor | Site Reviews | Reception Room

if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

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Gideon said:

let's say that God does exist, and that those who accept His gift are now His children, then why do you think He would allow them to die?

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That right there is one (just one) of the reasons I don't believe in God. I wouldn't want a god that does some of the things This one supposedly does.

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WebShaman said:

It is just that few dare to really express their true selves

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That is true there are too few people out there today who try and go with the flow. There are very few who don't really care what other people think.

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WebShaman said:

No, not only that

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That is true, you have given your own opinion about things in the natures of our discussions, but those were all well founded in facts previously laid down. Most of your thoughts I have either heard before, said before myself, or have recently had someone else not connected to Asylum bring up. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you did have some very original points and very good logic behind most of your arguments.

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WebShaman said:

If you can't see the difference, then so be it

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Well, I can see the difference, but at this point it is a little fuzzy.

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WebShaman said:

I can't make blind eyes see.

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Well, I'm glad I can see then.

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WebShaman said:

Your reply has shown me that not only are you blind, but you also do not
understand the basic underlying principles of communication and the transfer of
ideas, opinions, and thoughts.

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Not entirely true. I do understand most but not all. I am still learning. I won't ever stop learning. There is so much that can be learned that I am still trying to grasp some things while others are being hurled at me.

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WebShaman said:

Do I need to somehow put that in simpler words?

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Possibly more words. I know that my previous posts have been brash and many have at least simple spelling errors, but those were under circumastances that they were to be expected. As well as the part that you have pointed out numerously that I am new to Asylum, and don't know the written rules and am still slower on the unwritten rules.

Webshaman, I don't think you understand, I deeply respect you because you have been on here in these discussions for a very long time. I may not agree with you, but I think that you have had enough experience that you know what is what. I haven't the faintest clue, and I seem to get dogged a lot for that. I am trying to learn, but it is a slow process for me.

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WarMage said:

relies on individual interpretation

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Well, the Bible does have some parts to it that are up to interpretation, but there are other things that aren't. Some people just try to make them, when they end up contradicting themselves. But yes, there is interpretation that is involved in reading the Bible just like in any other written document.

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WarMage said:

Your opinion is what everyone has been asking for, and since noone seems to like
what you have been saying so far so I don't think you have much to lose by
actually being honest with your thoughts and beliefs instead of proclaiming all
of the things you aspire towards.

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You see, those are my own thoughts and beliefs. They stem from those things I aspire towards. I am still in the learning phases of my faith, but man are they fun! My faith is still growing, and it is a blast to see what God does when you actually trust Him. But about my real opinion, I think the point I was trying to make is that my opinion is still in its infancy and is likely to change soon anyway. I think that is what I was trying to say that God's Words don't change (unless people try to make it seem that way).

Emporer, that was an interesting web site. I had fun! But the miracle I witnessed was prayed for. God interviens in the distress of His children.

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briggl said:

That right there is one (just one) of the reasons I don't believe in God. I
wouldn't want a god that does some of the things This one supposedly does.

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Like what?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Like letting people starve all over the world. That is not what a loving father does to his children.

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God interviens in the distress of His children.

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The war taught me otherwise, Gideon, and that removed the last doubts of a "loving" god from me. The point being that in war, bullets are indiscriminating. No amount of prayer will turn one aside., irregardless of whom it is that prays or to whom (or what) one prays.

You say you witnessed a miracle - I say you witnessed nothing more than a natural process. I at least have tools that I can use, to measure this. This may not bother you but wait until you pray, when things are most dire, and there is no answer, no miracle. How will you explain that?

^^^

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and there is no answer, no miracle. How will you explain that?

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'the lord moves in mysterious ways...' '...we know not what the lord has in store for us.' ' ...it's gods' will.'

And all variants. Anything will do so long as the issue/facts remain mysterious and keeps the flock in line.

Yes, I am aware of the "pablum for the masses" answer. But every Christian (indeed, every believer) deep inside, is plagued by such doubts, when something like the above doesn't happen when it is "supposed to". And though parroting the "party line" may help sooth some ruffled feathers of doubt, the seed is planted. I call it the seed of REASON. If watered well, with drops of logic, and feed well, with nourishing, healthy doubt, it may one day grow into a tall tree of thinking for oneself.

For me, that is when life really got interesting (note I did not say easier - I said interesting).

You are right Briggl. A loving father does not allow his children to starve to death, or fight each other, but what if those children of his used to be living under his wings? He used to protect them, but they decide that it is time to move out of the house. They decide that they know better than their father and they leave. What does a father do then?

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WebShaman said:

The point being that in war, bullets are indiscriminating

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That is true, but what is behind those bullets? Guns. And what are behind those guns? People. It is people killing each other. People starving each other. Here in the US there is an overabundance of food. Why can't we share? God loves His children. There are explainations on both sides. I think that you have just experienced man's evil so much that it masks the good God can do.

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WebShaman said:

No amount of prayer will turn one aside.,

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Well, possibly. But there is an amount of faith that will. I know about a man in a revival, I think he was a pastor or at least a key speaker. Another man walked up to him and told him that his God can't keep him from shooting him, much like you have told me. The speaker told the man that whether that was his time or not, whether he died the instant he pulled the trigger or not, he will never forsake the name of his God ( there was some more dialogue too, but I can't remember that part fully). Well, the man took this poorly and pulled the trigger. The gun did nothing. The man threw the gun at the speaker and told him he can have his God, and he ran away. The speaker took the gun to the bathroom and looked in the chambers. All were loaded. There was no malfunction. It was clean. It shot later. There was no reason that he should be alive now, but he is.
I know this is a story, and you can pick it apart as much as you like, but the fact is that it isn't a single solitary event. There have been many cases such as this one. They all say the same. Something that should have happened, didn't. It could have been missed information, but isn't it a coincidence that that misinformation happens at those specific times? God's timing is perfect: the Christmas story wouldn't have happened now.

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WebShaman said:

This may not bother you but wait until you pray, when things are most dire, and
there is no answer, no miracle. How will you explain that?

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Timing. It will all work out in the end. Satan loves to catch people for the heat of the moment. God looks at the future, and prepares for it.

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NoJive said:

'the lord moves in mysterious ways...'

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Actually I hate that statement, because He really doesn't. Most of the time you can figure it out. The only thing is that you don't see the big picture, and God does.

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NoJive said:

'we know not what the lord has in store for us.'

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Kingship and priesthood. Peace and love. I know what the Lord has in store for me.

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NoJive said:

' ...it's gods' will.'

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Yup.

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NoJive said:

Anything will do so long as the issue/facts remain mysterious and
keeps the
flock in line.

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Well, some things just can't be explained. Even you will agree with me on this. There are somethings in science that haven't been explained yet. We still don't know for sure where the extra gravity goes in Einstien's theory, but we know it goes somewhere. Same thing with God. We know things happen, we just can't explain them yet, they haven't been revealed.

Plus there is one more commonly used phrase I like, "Who are you to tell God the Almighty what to do?" It goes along the same lines as "Your will not mine."

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WebShaman said:

when something like the above doesn't happen when it is "supposed to".

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Well, then you have to wonder what "supposed to" really is.

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WebShaman said:

I call it the seed of REASON.

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I call it fair-weather faith.

When I gave up trying to fit God to my ideals things got alot harder. Dangerous even. "It is dangerous to be a Christian." But my comfort was that when things got too much for me, God took care of it. And He did. There is the story of masked blessings that I can tell you later. The just is that bad things can become blessings.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

Gideon, READ MY POSTS before answering them, please! I said no amount of prayer will turn one aside - I did not say, that a gun will malfunction or not - I am talking about a bullet that is underway, and on target, and will kill on impact. If prayer works, then it should reliably be able to turn the bullet every damned time!. Research and study of the matter has shown, that prayer has as good an accuracy as chance - draw your own conclusions, I'm tired of waving them in your face.

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But my comfort was that when things got too much for me, God took care of it.

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That is the line I was waiting for. Sure took a long time. You are just not mature enough to face things on your own, so you need something to "take control", when things get "too hard". Just like your parents did, as you were a child. Well, that is natural, a response that we humans learn as children. But you have to grow up someday.

Time for Mankind to grow up, and leave the crutch of "god" behind, and start taking responsibility for ourselves. You see, there is no-one else to run to - there is no "too hard". Too hard is total extinction. The only ones we have, are each other. That is real, that is here. Thankfully, nature gave some of us an incredible will to survive, before there was any notion of "god", and continues to do so (otherwise, we would have long ago gone extinct, waiting for "god" to "rescue us" when it got "too hard").

As for your "you have seen too much evil" - give me a break. I don't believe in the concepts of good and evil. I have had a lot of experiences, many that you have not had. Has that had an effect on me? Of course it has, some positive, some negative. But most important, I have tried to learn from these experiences. I continue to, to this day, and should it ever end, I expect that my time here will be at an end. Then I look forward to the next great adventure, or the sweet, unknowning oblivion of nothingness. My experiences of death have shown me, that there is just darkness, and an unbelievable feeling of serenity, and peace, like a huge weight lifted forever. Others have reported other things. I am a product of my experiences, and my reflections on and about them.

Your "good" is another mans "evil". And vice versa. You may believe in a polarization of Good and Evil, symbolized by your god and your devil. But there is no single shred of evidence, that such exists. And quite frankly, as Briggl pointed out, that which your god has done, is among some of the most "evil" things ever done to Mankind - even your devil has not managed to be so cruel in the bible. A great flood, that wiped out almost all of Mankind. Nice father, first he kicks you out, then he drowns almost all of his own children - was more than willing and was prepared to kill them all. Oh, and that he sent a hell of a lot of people screaming to hell - just because they didn't even know he existed (and couldn't have known!). That is not free will. Nothing you can say, can deny this. Free will means having a real choice. Well, your god certainly didn't give my ancestors any choice - according to the bible, they are screaming in hell, because they had no idea that god existed.

If these are your notions of "good" and "evil", then I can do well without, thank you.

(Edited by WebShaman on 01-05-2005 11:59 - the phrase "God helps he who helps himself was removed from this post due to inaccuracy)

(Edited by WebShaman on 01-05-2005 12:00)

Contrary to popular belief, the line "God helps those who help themselves" is not in the bible.

The oposite idea is what is actually expressed.

Cursed is the one who trusts in man, who depends on flesh for his strength and whose heart turns away from the LORD. Jerhamia 17:5

He who trusts in himself is a fool... Proverbs 28:26

As for the idea of using god as a crutch or an excuse, I completely agree that this should not be a way for people to approach life. However, using the bible/god/jesus as a moral compass is not all bad. The intollerance that many people find while reading the bible should be ignored, because far to many believers take the intollerances in the bible as an excuse for their own bad behaviors. There is a difference in believing in something, and living according to an ideology and absolving yourself of personal resposibility, just make sure you are a part of the former.

Dan @ Code Town

I stand corrected on the phrase "God helps those who help themselves" - it really is not in the bible. Thanks for pointing that out.

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You are right Briggl. A loving father does not allow his children to starve to death, or fight each other, but what if those children of his used to be living under his wings? He used to protect them, but they decide that it is time to move out of the house. They decide that they know better than their father and they leave. What does a father do then?

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Oh, now I see. Believe in God or he will let you starve to death! Got it. So what about the devout believers in some of these areas around the world who are also starving to death?

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I think that you have just experienced man's evil so much that it masks the good God can do.

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You mean "I think that you have just experienced man's evil so much that it masks the good MAN can do."

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Kingship and priesthood. Peace and love. I know what the Lord has in store for me.

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So, you're going to be a king? I didn't know God said that if we believe in him, we are all going to become kings.

(Edited by briggl on 01-05-2005 15:29)

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Just answer it, I promise I am going somewhere good with it.

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As I can guess rather easily where you are going with it, and what you *think* you are going to 'expose' by it, I think I'll pass and save the headache of having to explain why your conclusion is so flawed and empty of any actual point.

Thanks all the same.