Topic awaiting preservation: Evolution vs. Creationism (Page 10 of 13)

thats so ironic....with museum of natural history in NY that has entire section dedicated to evolution, with recent articles from National Geographic and Discovery magazine....ohh man...I dunno.

Briggl, I said among 'educated' people of the world.

The USA, is may come as a surprise to you, is not "the world".

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Ah yes, I see where it was stated that the US *was* actually "the world"

As stated a couple of times, there *are* in fact many educated people, in the US and otherwise, who do not accept evolution.

It is unfortunate, but it is true.

I found that link I mentioned earlier: Science, 'frauds' trigger a decline in atheism

This is interesting assuming it's accurate. And it speaks to other worldly trends (read outside the US)

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Bugimus: The article is largely based on a research made by the Rev. Paul M. Zulehner. And actually he is clearly preaching for his own parish.

Nonetheless it's said there is a broad trend to reject the classical systems beliefs. Some people see in the beauty of the world the proof of an intelligent design, which is a sliding from atheism to agnosticism see paganism. The great public has really little scientific knowledge. To some extent they approve the grand principles of science, including evolution. They feel more comfortable with the idea that there is some kind of Art Director behind the universe rather than the strict application of the principles of physic and biology.

So yes in a way, atheism is on decline in favor of some individual forms of philosophy/spirituality. I especially think to the raise of the Zen thought and of some Buddhist principles.


Btw, I've seen recently a 3h documentary based on the book "The Elegant Universe : Superstrings, Hidden Dimensions, and the Quest for the Ultimate Theory" by Brian Greene. It was fascinating and dead simple to understand. The theory M is awesome. I don't know if the book is as clear as that documentary however I highly recommend everybody to read it or try to find/watch the documentary.



(Edited by poi on 03-12-2005 16:03)

Interesting article Bug and insight into it Poi.

I agree with the criticism of the organized aetheists. In my view autheism is an individual matter. I think those who join and organized aethist group are simply switching one faith for another.

Whereas fir me, aetheism is merely reality, not faith.

I wonder what effect the religious frauds are having on those turning to pagan delights? Such as the faked box said to have come from 2000 years ago with writing on it which turned out to be a whole lot newer.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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I think those who join and organized aethist group are simply switching one faith for another.

Whereas fir me, aetheism is merely reality, not faith.

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Precisely.

the very concept of an 'atheist' organization makes no sense at all. it requires dogma and doctrine far beyond the scope of simple atheism to constitute such an organization, and by that point the actual atheism is but an incidental. it might as well be a quilting group...

I've got an idea! Why don't I start judging you, DL, Ehtheist, Ruski, briggl, etc. based on the actions of some of the most lucicrous atheist groups out there? Umm.... wait, nevermind

[edit]
Notice that the article points out that in some ways dealing with a re-paganization brings up a whole different set of problems for Xianity. Europe has been a post-christian society for quite a while now. Religious 'frauds' are just one of the contributing factors for the decline of Xianity in Europe and probably not even high on the list. Africa is where the most pronouced growth is for Xianity. In fact, we are starting to see African missionaries going to Europe. That's a pretty ironic twist considering the history involved.

So from my perspective atheism and paganism simply represent different challenges to the spread of Christianity.

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(Edited by Bugimus on 03-13-2005 17:15)

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Africa is where the most pronouced growth is for Xianity.

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No, I must disagree with that, Bugs. Russia is the land with the most pronounced growth for Xianity, now that "communism" has fallen (which prohibited religion of all types).

Go ahead Bug, judge me anyway you wish, it will matter far more to you than to me.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Thanks, Ehtheist... you godless good for nothing heathen wanker! LOL!!! (Thank goodness for smilies or someone could mistake what I just typed as meant literally)

WS, let me look into this. Our congregation places a lot of importance on missions work and I should be able to come up with some fresh statistics. Certainly Russia and China are very fertile areas for the gospel message. Actually, because of the Chinese government's control of information, we don't have very good statistics there but it is estimated that there are far more xians there than they would ever admit.

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(Edited by Bugimus on 03-13-2005 17:59)

...whoops... double post...

(Edited by Bugimus on 03-13-2005 17:58)

Feel better getting that off your chest Bug?

BTW, most of what you say is true so it would hardly be insulting. Only thing is there are a few things I am good for. But this is not an insult either as you could have no way of knowing that.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Oh yes, much better. Now back to our regularly scheduled banter.

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The battle heats up in America - Battle on Teaching Evolution Sharpens

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They are acting now because they feel emboldened by the country's conservative currents and by President Bush, who angered many scientists and teachers by declaring that the jury is still out on evolution. Sharing strong convictions, deep pockets and impressive political credentials -- if not always the same goals -- the activists are building a sizable network.

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I find this agenda very disturbing.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

You are right to be disturbed. Here in Canada some us view the US as a de-facto theocracy with the re-election of Dumbya.

There is serious concern the conspiracy theorists who suggest he will manufacture some situation to remain in power past his term, might just be proven right.

It is why the Gids and the Bugs are also a serious concern as they blindly support religiously based matters.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Blindly? I'm curious to know why you think I do it blindly? I try to do what I do with my eyes very much open.

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While you're waiting blindly there Bugs Perhaps you could enlighten me on the use of that word xian? I have seen it used a number of times in this and other threads. Where has that come from? I'm guessing it alludes to Christ or Christianity but I have yet to find a dictionary that concurs.
I can only find reference to a city in China;

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# noun: A city of central China; capital of ancient Chinese empire 221-206 BC

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Cheers

::tao:::: ::cell::
"Those who look for monsters should look to it that they do not become monsters.
For when you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you"

X is the short for Chris(t), like in Xmas, Xitianity, Xian, ... It certainly comes from the close sound of the letter X and Christ, and to a lesser degree it also looks like a cross which can be considered as another allusion to Xianism.

Merci poi,
So it still seems to be one of those words that is not yet in a reputable dictionary.

Absolument mon ami.

It's really just an abbreviation, Tao, as it has been in centuries past. I think it is so often used online because it is so much easier to type.

Have you seen the fish symbol used by xians? Inside of the simple fish symbol you will often see the Greek word for fish, "ichthus". It turns out that this Greek word is also an acronym for "Jesus Christ, Son of God, Saviour".

greek letter: (iota) (chi) (theta) (upsilon) (sigma)
greek word: Iesous Christos Theos Huios Soter
english word: Jesus Christ God Son Savior

Now keep in mind that this is just something that I accept blindly without regard to any historical considerations

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Glad to see you admit it. That is the first step to recovery.

To be sure, you are nowhere near as close-minded as jade and Gid, but you still have that weakness which puts you on the side of religion first and reason after in my view.

Given the opportunity, Dumbya would have proctors in every bedroom in the nation to make sure no-one was doing anything but the missionary position.

Then he'd claim credit for a massive "job-creation" program.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

cool stuff bugs, i'll have to do a bit more looking into that now. going back to the greek and hebrew roots of things is always fascinating, especially in clarifying the original meaning of things we take for granted now.

i would type something in regards to the last post but it's not really worth a response, and as any response from me would of course indicate my massive conviction on the matter

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Ehtheist,

You are new to the boards, so you don't know Bugs very well. I do. I can say, that first and foremost, he is a most reasoned person, and he does tend to think first, before acting. Though my conclusions often differ from his, his logic and reasoning are pretty sound.

So this

quote:

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but you still have that weakness which puts you on the side of religion first and reason after in my view.

Ehtheist

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is inappropriate and inaccurate.

I just recently watched a reinactment of the scopes trial. I think that was the most disgusting thing that I have seen. People that were high up in the community, degrading Mr. Scopes, simply for his views on the origins of life. The thing that angered me the most was that there was no allowance of scientific witnesses! So the one subject they were discussing, the defense could not bring witnesses to their defense. I think that if people can't agree to allow all the evidence from both sides to come to an argument, why have that argument? The verdict was already agreed upon before the trial! But, I will say this, in the movie, the defense did an excellent job of tearing apart the prosecution, even on their home turf. People need to wake up, and go about these discussions with a clear, honest, and open mind. I know that I have been one lacking in that as of late, but when people are willing to have open discussions, things seem to turn out better, don't you think?

Hey Ehtheist, don't be too quick to judge. People might surprise you.

Hey Bugs, thanks for posting that stuff about Xianity. I didn't really know exactly what that word included, I just assumed it applied to Christianity somehow. I didn't know how close it really was. Let me make this statement about Bugs, he is the most reasoned person I have met on this site Ehtheist. When I first came here, I thought he was some wisened professor. Since, I have learned that he is a lot younger than I once presumed.... But he is a very wise man, and his words should be wieghted well.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

I have no difficulty agreeing that Bug is a reasoned individual. Pretty fair-minded too.

However, he persists in believing this myth and not only that, works consciously at spreading it to others (proselytizing), who are doubtless quite content without such interruptions in their lives.

Thus, I cannot be swayed from my conviction that if it comes to a choice between religion and reason, religion already has considerable weight on it's side.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

One should watch that he/she does not turn into the monster they seem to be looking for, Ehtheist.

I found this BBC programme The Long View both entertaining and informative (enterformative, informataining)? bleh
The Long View, recorded on location throughout the British Isles, takes an issue from the current affairs agenda and finds a parallel in our past.

quote:

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One hundred and fifty years ago, Charles Darwin found his own village of Downe was torn apart over a row about the local school: would the local squire's favouring of a secular curriculum win out over the vicar's desire for more religious content, especially when government money depended on it?

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To listen to the four short programmes I think you need realPlayer.

It seems there is some streamed videos of the documentary about String theory I mentionned above, on BBS Nova | The Elegant Universe. Now you have now excuse to not read/watch about some advanced theories of physic that could explain the origin of our universe and answer why the gravity is so weak compared to the ElectroMagnetic force, the Strong force and the Weak force and also that explain phenomon at both microscopic and macroscopic scale ( contrary to the Quantum physic and the Standard Model ).

Bugimus:

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Have you seen the fish symbol used by xians

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I've never seen that, or if I did I didn't knew it was a Xian symbol.



(Edited by poi on 03-15-2005 22:45)

I believe the history behind it was that the fish was used by Christians during the Roman persecution for various means, but especially for the marking of graves. It is a reference to how Jesus fed the 5,000 men, and their families, about 15,000 in total with 5 loaves of bread, and 2 fishes. It is a way to show that Jesus is the only food needed. Interesting way around authorities, huh?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

some info on the ichthys...

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I am terrified Tao, terrified...yawn.

Poi, it is because it is, nothing mor mysterious than that.

Fig, I had a Darwin fish, but my favourite says "<<Phish> and chips". Pass the malt vinegar please.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

hehe actually before christianity adopted it, fish used to be a sex symbol

Oh no Ruski, don't tell 'em that!

You know how feared 'a sex them xians is.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Er.. what are you talking about?

You're clearly here not to provoke discussion but to provoke name calling and abuse, why bother?



(Edited by Blaise on 03-16-2005 10:39)

Ehtheist said

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I am terrified Tao, terrified...yawn.

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Terrified? I think you misunderstand me, or choose to misunderstand.

Yeah, lots of generalized garbage based on many marginalized ideas.

Dan @ Code Town

quote:

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Ehtheist said:

You know how feared 'a sex them xians is.

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Do you know about the book in the Bible called Song of Songs? Interesting book, should give it a try sometime. It is about as racy as some of those tv shows and movies on now (racier than some actually...)

And give this web site a try. These guys aren't too afraid of sex. Quite the contrary. They have given much of their lives to it.

Ehtheist, are you under the impression that any or all who practice a religion, believe in invisible gods, believe in ghosts, etc. are not reasoned individuals? Why?

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

It is the hypocrisy of it all. Sex is bad...go forth and multiply. At least the early faithful enjoyed a healthy sex life before the holier-than-thou group got in control.

Certainly some xians have a realistic view of sexuality, but unfortunately, in my experience, there are far too many who preach guilt related to sex, masturbation or even feeling horny.

I am unable to number the women I have met in my life who had religious upbringings and healthy libido's and the pain the conflict between the two caused them and their partners.

It is an interesting history;

http://www.thefamily.org/dossier/books/book5/main.htm

Meanwhile as the clerics are preaching abstinance or no sex outside of marriage (it is a good thing we had sex before religion or we would have died out long ago), they are busy with doxies or other men's wives of children right to the modern day.

Yup, more hypocrisy. One rule for thee and and entirely different set for me thank-you.

Also: "Do as I say, not as I do". Control.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

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At least the early faithful enjoyed a healthy sex life before the holier-than-thou group got in control.

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That's actually very untrue.

There were very large groups of early christians (Paul among them) who declared sex absolutely bad, even among married couples for the sake of procreation.

there were significant sects who beleived that the return of christ would only happen when children stopped being born. many who declared that only those whose viriginity was intact would be saved...

Many early christians beleived very fervantly that the kingdom of god was coming within their lifetime - Jesus said so afterall...
This meant, to them, that the mortal body was something to be disdained, that would be left behind, and so to linger in the pleasures of the flesh was to deny salvation.

The idea of 'abstinence for god' was present way back in the day

FWIW

Ehtheist: Please rethink your thoughts before being so judgmental and generalistic. You confuse the manmade institution of religion, which seeks to manipulate and prey on believers (so-called conservative politicians, evangelicals who preach intolerance, and especially the corruption of the Catholic Church, etc.) with the original message. They are what is bad, not the message and not the Man.

Religion is a horrid thing. It sets up a structure of power among men which only leads to corruption, hypocrisy, deceit and/or ultimately death. That said, a simple belief of a truly personal nature, as I believe Christ intended, is perfectly fine. More than likely why I rarely have posted in these religious threads, I just don't see the debate. Creation/Evolution is a false argument to me. It leads nowhere. The true question is not who is right or wrong, but if we can put those differences aside in tolerance. Evolution is not a threat to my beliefs, science is not a threat to my beliefs, and a personal belief in God should not be a threat to you. The threat comes from those who seek control and power through the use of lies.

It is far too easy to lump religion/religious "leaders"/believers all together and come up with your conclusions, but that does not change the fact that you are very, very wrong. All it causes is division and strife, when there really is no need.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 03-17-2005 09:14)