Topic awaiting preservation: no asp or .net (Page 1 of 1)

i look in here quite often to see what is going on and i was wondering why so many people are using php. There is no asp , jsp or i dont know what else.
So i wanted to know what are the advantages of php, and why is everybody only usong that??


ps: i use asp and asp.net

It's free, it's easy to use and it's very powerfull.

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Support Justice for Pat Richard

hmmm free wel the server .. yes! the rent costs the same well for me it does 15?/month
easy.... so is asp
powerfull well .net is VERY powerfull, asp well the same as php i guess

well what i was looking for actualy was real differences and facts for/ against different languages

(Edited by Blacknight on 01-11-2005 19:43)

You will find that many of us use JSP and some of us even use ASP or .NET. I have used ASP and JSP quite a lot myself, I haven't touched .NET yet. However, you will tend to find the affore mentioned being used in the business setting where PHP is used for the individual hobbiest. There are reasons for this. I can name out a few quickling.

1) JSP based on java is clunky. It requires a lot to do a little. It has a whole lot of power and some even say a ton of speed compared to anything else. You can get a whole lot of versitility out of java, but it doesn't do well for quick projects.

2)ASP is not a language. ASP is a server technology that makes use of other languages. The main one being Visual Basic Script, which, compared to most of the common languages no adays is an ugly ugly language. It is not fun to work with at all.

3)All of the above carry a larger cost of entry. In the case of ASP and .NET you will have the $$$ issue. Both of these require you to pay licensing to use the software that supports them. As for JSP there is a huge cost in time in deploying the java runtime environment and setting up the server to support JSP.

Now, on the other end you have PHP. Php is very easy to setup, is nicely integrated with the Apache Web Server, as well as with the MySQL database. You can download packages that with as few as 5 clicks you can have a full featured Server/Parser/Database setup.

PHP code is also really pretty, and is standard on most web servers.

The other language you might see here would be Perl, which is falling out of fashion in the web development enviornment, but Perl is legacy CGI and you will still see it being used.

What I wish were used more often now that I have gotten into it heavily is Python. If you are looking for a really amazing language to learn take a look at Python, it is Lisp but, IMHO, better.

Dan @ Code Town

In response to the new post.

Features will be pretty much the same across the board. The difference will be the coding style and syntax of the languages. When you speak of .NET I am assuming you are talking VBScript (you might mean C#, and I won't address that one as C# is pretty much the same as java). With Java/C# you are talking about strongly typed languages. You will actually need to know how to code to effectively use these languages. If you just want to perform web based tasks, then these languages will tend to be a little much. VBScript/PHP are both scripting languages.

The main difference between the two is that PHP is open source, and VBScript comes from a closed source family. What you get out of these are different community focii. With PHP you will find a ton of free scripts(PostNuke, phpMyAdmin,Plone) and extensions(ImageMagik, PEAR, GD) while with VBScript you will find that the developed applications all carry semi-substancial licensing fees. When I use ASP for clients, I find myself having to price out extensions for them. If you want the calendar application you will need to pay another $100, which isn't going into my pocket, but going to pay licensing fees.

Were I to use PHP for the same task I could charge the client considerably less for any given project. For nice image libraries for ASP (like ImageMagik or GD) I have seen costs as much as $1000, which is absurd considereing the free alternatives. The other issue with going the ASP route, is that you will most likely be using an IIS server, which then you lose out on all of the nice features that Apache (web server) has. Such as a free URLRewrite engine, and the other hundreds of extensions.

It all boils down to the community you want to associate with and how much of a gain you will get out of either of the two.

Dan @ Code Town

thaks for the explanation warmage

hmm i have tried php befor to and must say it isn't bad i do find all the "{([;$&" very confusing though.
As for for $$$ in vb well as a developer is that realy my problem?? *gg* i mean the hoster pays that. and i have found that hosters providing asp and php do not make the php cheaper . they are usualy the same... ok if i run my own servers i might see that cas there. as for developing ok yes i admit the software one needs to do asp is far more expensive.

.net though i must say is great because it splits up the code and the interface(layout ...what ever you call it) in to seperate files (everyone who is in to object oriented Programing will see the + to that)

hmmmm

well the cause of this question actualy was the former hoster of a client who loughed at us because we sayd we would change from php to asp. so i got anoyed. And then i noticed that on the index here there where lots of languages listed (see for you self) but no M$ asp/.net and i got anoyed again. so i wanted an explanation to this phenomenon.

post are going to fast at the moment

i can see that with the comunity i dont see the that with the price tough because asp actualy has a calendar object integrated (dont ask me how i do though recal it.... i think) secondly there are projects like aspnuke (all stuff over at sourceforge.org)

well i guess it all commes back to what you sayed in the end "Its all about the commuity you are /want to be in"

The $$$ is your problem. Because you are going to take a host that costs 30 euro's a month. For my host, it is only $5 which would be 2.5 euros a month. That is where the savings is.

Look into some Linux based servers, as compared to IIS. You will really feel the pinch when you get to the level where you will require a dedicated host, you will also feel the downtime, as the IIS will often require restarts, and even complete server restarts for minor security updates. You will also feel the effects of worms that make their way through the web.

Personally, I would not hire, nor would I reccomend the hire of any firm that designs using ASP. It is a language chooses by managers and not programmers. And if you told me you were going to move my application for PHP to ASP I would laugh at you as well.

As for your OO methods. If you are looking for OO you will not be using VBScript, you should be using Java/JSP. PHP also supports OO practices better than VBScript does. C# is a good OO language, and some of its benifits are better than Java (it just lacks any kind of wide community support).

I don't know what the "{([;&" that you are referring to. I think you might mean that it is a stronger typed language than VBScript, and you are correct, it is a bit stronger typed. That is what makes it appealing to many developers.

It is all about methodologies. But in the end it always boils down to that you have to go with what you are most comfortable with.

As for the phenominom of not mentioning ASP. ASP is not a language and neither is .NET. Neither of these are languages, both of these an architecture that parses other languages. They would not be mentioned. And you will not find a love of ASP here, because it is the bastard child of web programming. In many open communities you will not find much support, because it is not a language that has open roots.

Dan @ Code Town

quote:

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WarMage said:

It is a language chooses by managers and not programmers.

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why that if php is cheaper? i dont quite get that wouln't they want the cheaper solution??

i have noticed no love alround the net for vbscript but one gets used to it.


as for OO yes thats what i am going for ..i havent actualy looked at Java/jsp what OS/Server does that run on? i probalby will have a look at it sometime (will have to when i start studiing)

It is chosen by managers and not programmers, because managers read the journals that Microsoft advirtises in, and they tend to base their investments on the hype. Also there is the adage that you get what you pay for. Which you will pay more for an ASP solution, but you end up in reality getting far less quality.

Java is cross platform you will find it running on nearly everything. I think there is even a toaster somewhere that runs java. Check out Apache Tomcat as a JSP parser.

Dan @ Code Town

Hi there, just a quick reply on

quote:

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It is a language chooses by managers and not programmers

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I'd say that the managers decide what platforms they want running in the company, they also decide what programming languages the company should support.

Basically it boils down to company policies that amongst other things (such as market domination by a certain company and such) are based on the whish to have some sort of quality control and warranties on applications and similar.

Right or wrong, one way to feel that you are getting this is to look for certifications which are much more common in the MS enviroment than in the open source community.

I could write a ton more on this, but I'm running out of time here, basically I agree with WarMage
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

quote:

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WarMage said:

And you will not find a love of ASP here, because it is the bastard child of web programming.

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so you want to say the probably best webrecource uses crap script?
http://www.w3schools.com/default.asp
joust noticed that they use asp. and they have a good quality. or do you disagree. so what makes you think that asp are bad(less quality) pages? i must disagree with you there.

quote:

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DmS said:

I'd say that the managers decide what platforms they want running in the company, they also decide what programming languages the company should support.

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but usualy not host there own website (only very big ones)

It's not about lower quality of the scripts if you use ASP.
A good coder can create really good scripts in any normal scripting language just as a crappy coder probably produce crappy scripts no matter the language.

The output is also totally independent of the chosen language, unless you are using readymade components that spit out ready made blocks of html which is more or less the default way of using asp.net when you use the recommended IDE, Visual Studio .NET.

Granted, you don't need to use those components, however, with todays client-driven-warpspeed-lowest-bidder-solution-provider competition you will take any shortcuts available to provide a solution fast.

The main problems I and many more see with using a microsoft based platform as ASP and/or .NET is that the good developing tools such as IDE, dev-server, dev-database and so on cost a lot of money. Then no matter if you host the solution yourself or buy it your security depends on the routines the hosting department have for updating the servers with all the latest patches and similar to keep it up to date. This security problem will not go away as long as microsoft products is the main target for hackers, probably not even then.

Next, I've been "in the web-business" since 1996 in companies varying from 15.000 employes to mid size with a couple of hundered ppl to small with about 30 ppl. I've also freelanced and built solutions for small busineses. And at least here in Sweden it's common practice that if you have your own IT-department that run the office pc's and a decent internet connection, you usually run your own website/server unless it's enterprise scale on the site or really high uptime needs. Then you outsource all maintenance including managed hosting of all the servers but keep full control over the platform.

Small business companies however, they don't have the resources to buy total control over the web part, they usually order a working solution including hosting and don't really care how the provider solves the problem, normally the cheaper the better as long as it does what its supposed to.

At least that's a 39+ old IT-dudes experience
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

Sounds like someone here is VERY attached to his M.S. asp technology..... There are however, more production webservers offering php than asp. There must be a reason for this, like maybe you don't neeed to use a crappy IIS webserver to do it.

As far as .Net goes, most developers that code .Net web applications tend to use Visual Studio, which carries a rather steep price. You can do it in a text editor, but the type of developer who is confused by ' {([;$ ' is not likely to want to handcode all the background code needed to make the application.

I have heard .Net developers say '...it won't let me do that.' more times than I can count. With php you are not at the mercy of a Microsoft IDE, you are in control.

/* Sure, go ahead and code in your fancy IDE. Just remember: it's all fun and games until someone puts an $i out */

im not very atached to MS its joust the system i use. and i do code hardcore and the new iis6.0 is extremly safe
and if someone says ...it won't let me do that. they are joust to stupid to use the msdn library
and the {[(;$ ..sorry but what is the use of it ..i mean where is the point of that.
And the fakt that there are more php webservers is mainly to the fakt of the price ...and that everybody uses it .

@dms over here in austria companies do not host their own websites ..most of them even big ones outsourse that (thats cheaper over here)


the only thing i realy admit is the price of the developing Programms.

@ norm what do yopu mean by IDE i have never come across this term (probably usesd it though without knowing it was caled IDE)

My old job required me to use ASP for about 2 years, initially I hated it, but after awhile it begain to grow on me, and is usefull for both 'quick and dirty' applications, and more complex systems. However, I have a new job which has moved me over to ASP.NET and their prefered language of choice is C#, and I am /very/ happy at this move.

ASP.NET is just so much more powerfull than ASP, and once I got over the initial learning curve of using .NET over classic-ASP, I can develope 'quick and dirty' just as fast, if not faster with .NET then I could with ASP. I find that in many ways, I'm able to treat my web-apps as 'real applications' and not web-pages, in how it handles controls/forms/etc.

Normal ASP lets you get away with ALOT of bad programming praticices, and trying to maintain code in it can become tedious, as you can be very lazy from the get-go with it. A friend of mine is trying to setup a WebStore, and used a pre-made package written in ASP. He has ended up neededing alot of custom mods to make it do what he wants, and I have been doing that programming for him, and OMFG, so many days I want to punch the guy who wrote it.

He has such hacked together speghatti code that its near impossible to figure anything out.

For me, I think if I was to be doing a personal/hobbyist website, I'd most likely use PHP. However, for work and business oriented things, I'd be inclined to go with ASP.NET

Asp is pretty cool if you use javascript as the default language instead, because it's much more powerful than VBscript for some reason I dont know of.
- Harder to learn though, due to lack of documentation.
MS people prefer VBscripts for some wierd reason I cannot fathom.

(^-^)b

quote:

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Blacknight said:

so you want to say the probably best webrecource uses crap script?
http://www.w3schools.com/default.asp
joust noticed that they use asp. and they have a good quality. or do you disagree. so what makes you think that asp are bad(less quality) pages? i must disagree with you there.

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What you are saying here simply makes no sense.

w3schools is a great resource for web design information. I don't think you'll find many people who will disagree with that.

Does this have anything *at all* to do with the choice of prgramming language they use to build the backend of their sites? No - nothing.

How good an option a particular scripting language is also has nothing at all to do with the quality of website that a particular person outputs using it.

I can do great works of art woth MS Paint, given the time. Does that make MS Paint a great graphics program?? Of course not.

I can build websites using textpad - does that make textpad a great code editor? Hardly.

The quality of the PRODUCT is what is at stake here - not the quality of the unrelated content of a website that makes use of that product...

quote:

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and the {[(;$ ..sorry but what is the use of it ..i mean where is the point of that.

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Care to elaborate what you're even talking about, and what about it confuses you?

I am not by any means a programmer, but I uses PHP wuite often, and have never encountered anything in it's syntax that I find confusing. On the contrary, it is about the most straightforward language I've tried.






(Edited by DL-44 on 01-13-2005 18:14)

quote:

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and the {[(;$ ..sorry but what is the use of it ..i mean where is the point of that.

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The point? Well, if you are coding C, C++,Perl, or PHP,( oh yeah let's not forget Java and Javascript) the point is to identify and address variables, arrays, to seperate bocks of code, and to be able to visually navigate your code.

An IDE is an 'integated development environment'. Some examples would be Code Warrior, Eclipse, JBuilder, and of course Visual Studio.

The commented block is my sig. Kind of a play on the warning our moms used to give us before snowball fights and such. Don't you ASP guys use a variable named 'i' to increment a for-loop?


/*I must know.... Does Fuzzy Logic really tickle?*/

(Edited by norm on 01-13-2005 18:52)

I have not had an opportunity yet to use php, but one issue that has not been raised so far in this discussion is that if you write an application (web-site, back-end, etc.) in .asp, .net, or VBscript you are stuck on Mircosoft machines.

If you write the application in .php you can run the application on Linux, OS-X, Microsoft, Sun, etc.

To me that one issue is the reason I avoid using Microsoft technologies when I can. That includes .asp, .net, VBscript, C#, and the Microsoft extensions C, C++, FORTRAN, etc. Using machine specific or operating specific code in any environment just makes things harder to upgrade to the next version of the operating system, the next machine, etc.



.

-- not necessarily stoned... just beautiful.

@ norm no i use x but comes down to the same thing (i is a mathematical absloute number (squareroot of -1))

@ Dl-44 well yes the content has nothing to do with the used technology i was youst triing to say that i dont belive that w3schools would use asp if it where crap

@hyperbole updating is not hard becaus ms systemys are always down-compatible (if that is whise is a diferent thing)
on the otherhand how easy is it to uprade php3 to php4??

@Kaniz why dirty code it depends on what you write ..you can also write dirty code in any other language

Well, this is one of the clasical debates i guess, up there with windows vs linux (actually closely related) , AMD vs intel, britney vs christina ( LOL ).

I'm a php fan. I find it to be extremely easy to use. Not easy, but easy to use. And to say that "all the [$&({" confuses you i think shows that you preffer click-programming, fire up a huge platform like visual .net , click around and get a simple app that pulls/adds data from a database. Which lots of people do but have no idea WHAT they are doing. I've seen people that called themselves asp programmers that did that.
php cought on mainly cos it was open/free and because it resembles C a lot, which is still the mother of all languages. It's simple, clear and powerfull. Whereas asp, especially .NET follows into MS's tradition of creating yet another HUGE product. They confuse marketing results with quality in my opinion. Or don't care about the difference. Their goal is, and I'm not blaming them, to SELL, not to create something better or a comunity.

Asp is mostly a marketing and administrative based decision. Big companies don't care if they use something expensive, cos after all, for big companies expensive si very relative. But they want to be up there with the big players so they use high brands. And what is higher than MS? Web development companies sometimes put asp on the top of their recommandations list for the same reason and for the reason that their fee get's bigger this way.
php is the choice of comunity projects, small projects and small and medium sizec companies. And it's about reducing starting costs, about having more (actually is there a statistic to prove my statement that there are more php devlopers that asp ones?) developers ready to jump into their boat, about having TONS of open/free documentation and free help around (yes, MSDN is free. Be my guest, try to look something up in there and then compare to the way php.net is organised).

Another issue might be the large use of apache/unix based web servers. Apache must be the most used web server. MS have failed to make IIS the popular choice. Apache and php are great toghether.

There is another small argument to take into consideration. Apache/unix based platform are the popular choice for public web-servers. Again, windows has not proved to be able to handle this.
What i have seen IIS/asp used for with large success is intranets, proprietary applications that use html/js/asp to make internal handling of data/resources for companies. I have yet to see many known sites, aside MS.com that are hosted on a windows/IIS platform.

They both have their market shares and niches, but php will still be more popular for a while, unless MS changes over-night and re-invents the weel. Oh wait, they always try to do that

PS. I think this is the short way to define php. Doesn't try to re-invent anything. It's C-Light, there for every newbie to give it a try and see if web-programming is for them or not. No expensive certifications needed

PPS. Re; w3schools.org To be honest, feel free to call me an idiot if you know differently, but i've always thought that MS was behind, in some way or another, this site. Take a look at the list of languages/technologies they list. Most of them MS oriented. Nothing from the other side.


Curiously yours, crip

(Edited by crip on 01-14-2005 01:19)

As for most popular webserver platforms...
http://news.netcraft.com/archives/web_server_survey.html

About says it all, no rumors, no more "I think".
Clear, researched statistics.
Fact, if you run ASP you are not going to be on a non IIS platform.
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

Ok, I'm usually the last to defend ASP but I have to say the following:

Traditional ASP programmers are not drag&drop Visual Studio programmers, they are real coders. ASP (traditional) cannot be coded in Visual Studio, which is why some many VB programmers used to tremble in fear at the idea of writing a web application.

.Net has changed all that, for better or for worse......

/* Sure, go ahead and code in your fancy IDE. Just remember: it's all fun and games until someone puts an $i out */

It seems to be pretty much the Microsoft side vs. the Others so, I decided to jump into the conversation. I have had the opportunity to use Java (JSP, Servlets), PHP, and .NET and I like using all of them for whatever project comes along. I think they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

PHP Strength:
--open source, is very versatile, runs on any platform and has a huge community supporting it

PHP Weakness:
--does not have Strong Typed variables.

Java Strength:
--is very versatile, runs on any platform , has a fairly decent community supporting it

Java Weakness:
--not truly open source, desktop (swing) applications are truly horrific

.NET Strength
--Great development environment, is now truly object oriented, very flexible

.NET Weakness
--They promise cross platform, but I think that will come when HELL freezes over

For the most part, I would have to disagree with Warmage in saying that Managers are the ones that specifiy the technology. Most of the clients I have dealt with have looked to me to specify what the application will be built in. I have only run into one company that specified what they wanted and that was because they already had numerous apps using that technology.

I really don't think you can knock any of the languages. All have built some really solid apps and have great success stories to show.


--Why can't all programmer just get along --

You are talking about your interaction with the client. Where you (the programmer) are also the manager. The client isn't the manager.

What I am talking about are businesses, with the tiered hierarchy. If you have a managing layer, these are the people who are making the choice on the languages and enviornment you will be developing in.

Dan @ Code Town

<hijack>
Meanwhile, those of us who are considered 'entry-level' in the workforce are faced with somewhat of a problem. As someone said above, the corporate tendency seems to be to use the name brands they recognize, namely MS. Now, I've never worked with C# or ASP.NET, actually the closest was Visual J++ (evil evil evil). The university taught Java solely, which is what I know best, plus the little bit of PHP that I played with, nothing fancy though. The only reason I know any PHP though is because of what WarMage mentioned at first:

quote:

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Php is very easy to setup, is nicely integrated with the Apache Web Server, as well as with the MySQL database. You can download packages that with as few as 5 clicks you can have a full featured Server/Parser/Database setup.

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I've already had one interview where the sole reason I didn't get a position was because they needed a couple .NET programmers, not Java. The majority of the jobs advertised (that I've found at least) are similar; they require knowledge of (and experience in) .NET (C# or ASP.NET namely), and if you happen to know Java it's a bonus, but not the reverse.

Apologies for the hijack, just felt like the time and place for a rant with no real point.
</hijack>

nice to see that i'm not all alone with my opinion.

as to the matter of Managers telling you what technology to use .
Mostly managers know what app. they want (and that limited) but have no clue of thechnologies available (not their job eigther).. so it is up to the Programer or the Projectmanager to deside what he/they use. Only in very few situations this will be given before the project is started.(based on my little experiance in this field so tell me i'm wrong if that is so)

Your wrong. In most business you will enter they have their infrastructer setup well before you have arrived. The normal progression is something like this.

1) Some people get together with a good idea. They start their business, and buy computers from Dell for them to do their word processing on, they use microsoft word, and excell.

2) They decide they need to track more of their sales data and it is getting cumbersome using excel for this purpose, they set up a simple access database which they can run queries on.

3) They now feel they need a web presence, they have all of there data in an access database and they hire the kid down the street to hook this up with the web.

4) This "kid down the street" hooks up their access database to the web using front page or dream weaver and some limitted knowledge of ASP or what not to get this done.

5) Business grows, and more Microsoft technology is thrown at the problem of scaling to meet increasing customer demands.

The is how many many many companies evolve. They do not initially sit down and try to figure out which solution will scale, and they do not sit down and plan out their technological infrastructure, this tends to grow as the need grows. This because the people with the good idea tend to people in the business world, they come up with their good ideas and work with the stuff they know not which will end up working the best for them.

For this company, were they smart and were they to expect the kind of growth they would need to scale to would spend the time up front to plan for the growth. They would go and use the open source solutions that would scale with them, as opposed to having to purchase more advance software as you go.

My company recently did a huge migration from MS to Linux solutions. They grew up using the plan I outlined above, a few business people wanted to fill a need, and started working out of the garage, they grew and grew over the course of 20years and threws MS stuff at the problem the whole time, and ultimately end up with a mishmash of systems they don't work well together, and don't scale well.

This ultimately results in the need for a huge migration startegy to actually lay the structure that should have been laid in the beginning. But it was managers making these decisions in the beginning and they at that time didn't know what the impact of those decisions would be.

Good luck,

Dan @ Code Town

Very well put and equally true!
/Dan

{cell 260} {Blog}
-{ ?Computer games don?t affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we?d all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.? (Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989.) }-

I don't see how that is a demonstration of Managers dictating the technoloy. I was just some kid down the street that built the website using what he knew. The company would not have cared if the site was built using Perl, PHP or even JSP. They were guided by the kid.

As for the statement of "use the open source solutions that would scale with them", not all open source solutions scale that nicely. Since I have done very little coding in ASP I can't do it justice, but have seen dozens of large scale websites using that technology. I have seen and built large scale websites using Java and .NET, but would never consider doing one in PHP because of its inability to scale and handle heavy loads. I mainly use PHP to build small to medium sized websites for companies that want to minimize their costs.

I have do consulting for 3 large pharmaceutical companies, some financial, and a host of other companies. When I have built an application from scratch, only one of the companies has dictated to me what it was to be built in.

And migrating from MS to Linux to solve a problem isn't always the right solution. You have to look at the amount of money a company has invested in their current technology and determine what is good enough to keep and fix. That should determine your next steps.