Topic awaiting preservation: Vatican University Debuts Satanism Classes (Page 2 of 5)

Mother Teresa was not the person her publicity made her out to be. If you read into her philosophy, you will see that she wasn't the saint that many people want her to be.

St. Paul was the first major player who helped form Christianity into what it is today. His statues and paintings always show him with a sword. It is his icon, so he can be picked out in paintings - St. Peter always holds keys, St. Paul holds a sword.

I didn't think too much of Mother T. and agree she was more interested in what she beleived came 'after' this life.

As for modern day xian atrocities.

In Canada we had 'Indian Residential Schools' run by the anglican church on behalf of our federal government. Native children were snatched from their parents... boarded in these schools...and subjected to all manner of physical & mental abuse if they spoke their native tongue or conducted any of their traditional ceremonies. ..all the while being subjected to the the teachings of christ.

These atrocities were still going on in the 1960's and the court cases continue today.

Let us not forget that the xian proselytizers did to the sweet and gentle people of the Hawiian islands (among other innocent cultures). Introduced the concept of sin (now, there is a snake in the garden), all the while taking advantage of the freely loving young women (more xian hypocrisy) and just incidentally helping the foreign sailors spread veneral diseases, which were unknow in the are before the advent of the white man.

So, yes Bug your faith does advocate, has practiced, is practicing (and not just a few errant followers) such forceful conversion. Watched a TV evangelist lately? The sword need only be metaphorical.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

briggl, in New Testament theology, the sword symbolizes the Word of God. Paul wrote the book of Ephesians and many people believe the book of Hebrews as well:

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Ephesians 6:10-18

Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.


Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

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Paul did not advocate anything contrary to Christ's own teachings when it comes to this issue. Xians were to struggle and make war against spiritual enemies just as we are today. The kingdom of God that Paul preached about was not a physical empire but a spiritual one. Would you agree with this?

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Ehtheist said:

So, yes Bug your faith does advocate, has practiced, is practicing (and not just
a few errant followers) such forceful conversion. Watched a TV evangelist
lately? The sword need only be metaphorical.

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I am not here to make excuses for anyone who violates the principles of Xianity because there is no excuse for that, but you will need to show me where my faith advocates these atrocities you mention.

I posted while you did and so about the sword being metaphorical, I would have to say that I agree on that It most certainly is metaphorical.

Let's be clear about this. If I come to you and tell you the gospel, I am not forcing anything upon you. All I have done at that point is given you information that you will need to make a decision about. You can either accept it or reject it. It is as simple as that. I do not consider that forced in any way shape or form. Do you think it does?

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Not to mention the *millions* natives in west indies who were butchered on the arrival of Columbus and crew. We're talking entire tribes and groups of tribes pretty much obliterated in the name of christian progress.

Basically because they weren't really "people", they were just savages...

While I understand that there certainly are those who do follow the teachings of Jesus, as opposed to the bastardized doctrines wirtten in his name, the bulk of the history of christianity has been very unchristian. Yes, many of the things that were done were borrowed form the "standard practice of the day", but that does not in any way make it ok. It is also important to note that christianity took these "standard practices" quite a bit further, and with divine support for whatever they wanted to do.

The church received carte blanche to do whatever they wanted in the name of god and christ...and they took full andvantage of it.

{{Edit - you posted while I was, bugs.

There is no doubt that what christianity *should* be all about, and what it has *actually* been all about are two very different things. The problem lies, as always, in the doctrinization of Jesus' teachings after the fact. So many things in the NT have nothing to do with Jesus, except that the author says that jesus revealed it to him...

It stopped being about Jesus real quick.




(Edited by DL-44 on 02-25-2005 16:28)

I'm still waiting for an answer from you Bugs on the Native front.

And I agree with what DL has posted here.

In fact, I would go further - the movement that Jesus started got hijacked after his death. Much like the movement that Ghandi started in India has gotten hijacked after his death.

I doubt either would be very happy to see what has become of the movement that they started.

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didn't think too much of Mother T. and agree she was more interested in what she beleived came 'after' this life.

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According to Proverbs 31:8, we need to speak up: "Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves, and for the rights of all those who are destitute."

Since you didn't know Mother Theresa personally, how can you judge her and know what was in her heart.

Mother Theresa's aim was to help the poor and give dignity to the dying. She and her sisters would find women, men children dying in the gutters of India's poorest section. They would clean maggots off them, bathe them, and give them a bed, shelter and a place to die with love, tenderness and caring. She opened up houses for the dying and had many volunteers who helped care for them. She said, when she would look at these poorest of the poor, she would see the face of Jesus in each of them. Now, houses in her name are all over the world, which provide the same service even today. Didn't good come from her love of Christianity.

DL, We, Christians have been persecuted since our beginnings and are even persecuted today? So, it is us too, in fact much more so that evil has been directed at. But, you don'ts see us bringing it up on a daily basis and making a point to pinpoint the perpetrators.

Persecution of Christians is as old as the Church itself. First there was an attempt to intimidate the Apostles into silence. They wre flogged and all killed. The first was St. Stephen who was stoned to death. James was killed by Herod who then tried to also get rid of Peter, but the Lord intervened by means of a miraculous escape from prison. Christ was killed by the Romans.

Listen to Paul's own account of persecution against him: "Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked." from the book of Corinthians. Paul, in his training of Timothy reminds him, "Everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted." (Even on the internet)

The reality is, persecution is happening now at a more intense level than ever in history against Christians. More followers of Christ have died for their faith in the 20th century than in all the 19 previous centuries combined. More than an estimated 160,000 believers were martyred in 1996, and countless others were subjected to unimaginable horrors. And the persecution appears to be higher today.

There is now evidence of widespread torture, killing, raping, and imprisonment of believers in dozens of countries. They include China, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Kuwait, Pakistan, North Korea, Laos, Vietnam, Ethiopia, Cuba and several countries in the Soviet Union. What is happening in these nations, and elsewhere, is unconscionable. In some places it amounts to mass murder of Christians. These Christians today face torture, rape, imprisonment, slavery, beatings, and death. Some 200 million face this as a reality daily, and 400 million face severe to moderate forms of discrimination simply because they believe in Jesus Christ.


Sudan in Africa is full of examples. Families in small Christian communities are seeing their communities disintegrate due to Islamic raiders from the north. Often the men are killed because they represent opposition, women are raped, and children are enslaved. China is currently detaining Protestants and severely beating more than a dozen church leaders even today. Chinese are ridiculed, beaten because they communicate with Protestant foreigneres. We, Christians pray in our churches each week, oblivious to the fact that Christians in many parts of the world suffer brutal torture, arrest, imprisonment and even death -- for no other reason than that they are Christians.

If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you... If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you... (John 15:18-20) Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name." (Matthew 24:

Jade, what you have just done, is a classic "Switch" tactic - but despite everything that you have typed about Xian persecution, doesn't change the fact that the Xian Religion did terrible things and atrocities!

In fact, in light of the persecution that Xians went through, one would think that they would have been more tolerant because of this.

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doesn't change the fact that the Xian Religion did terrible things and atrocities!

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Web, when you state this, are you referring to certain persons in the faith or the whole of the Christian religion. People do sway in their faith and do evil things in the name of religion. That exist even today, but it doesn't represent the whole flock of that religion. Can we agree on this?

We are talking about an organization as a whole. You can't have your cake and eat it, as well. The Xian Religion has a history and it is stained in the blood of the heathens.

This is documented fact. I am appalled to see what lengths some like you are willing to go to, to deny this!

As always, organizations are made up of individuals. And they vary accordingly. But together they make up the whole, and they all are responsible for the actions of the organization of which they are a part.

Xianity is no exception.

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But together they make up the whole, and they all are responsible for the actions of the organization of which they are a part.

Xianity is no exception.

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So I guess all Germans today are responsible for Hitler's actions from the past.

From the view I get in your post, I gather your an educated person, so I don't understand why you think this way. The only reason I can come up with is that you harbor discrimination or resentment of some sort towards Christianity or Christians in general.

Whats the difference of the history of your people who killed and massacred others? Are you to be held accountable today for what they did in history?

Nope not German...but you could say "all Nazis" even modern ones =)

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WebShaman said:

and they all are responsible for the actions of the organization of which they
are a part.

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Jade is correct. If you're going to hold all Xians to blame for the atrocities cited, then all Germans are also culpable for the atrocities committed during WWII. It would be hypocritical to say otherwise. Not every Xian agreed with the atrocities committed by the Church and not every German agreed with the Nazi party but if you accept what WS said, then it has to apply to both Xians and Germans.

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So I guess all Germans today are responsible for Hitler's actions from the past.

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Not all Germans were Nazis, Jade. That should be obvious to even you.

And the Nazi period is an inescapable part of German history, yes.

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The only reason I can come up with is that you harbor discrimination or resentment of some sort towards Christianity or Christians in general.

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Uhhh...say what? Jade, an examination of history reveals the documented facts that I speak of. And they have nothing at all to do with what I think of the Xian religion. I'm pretty appalled that you come to the conclusion that I am discrimitory or harbor resentment against Xianity just becasue I state facts? It is true, that Xianity treated my forefathers terribly. But that has very little to do with me or the facts.

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Whats the difference of the history of your people who killed and massacred others? Are you to be held accountable today for what they did in history?

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May I ask what that has to do with anything? I don't think I pointed out any differences in the history of my people than what actually is recorded. Yes, my people did kill and massacre others. Held accountable? I am aware of my people's history (well, as well as I can be, anyway). I accept what and who they are, and what and who I am. In that sense, I hold myself accountable, in that I acknowledge it. But my people do not hold the belief that they are peaceful, loving, and kind like Xianity does. Also, one has little choice when it comes to racial groups - you are either born into one, or you are not. As such, they are not really organizations (though they certainly can have organizations). It is not like I had a choice in the matter.

So, the difference here is that my people never made a pretense that they were kind, loving, and peaceful.

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Ehtheist said:

Religion, being entirely a creation of man, is inheirantly as evil as the men
and women who conduct it's offices.

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I totally agree Ehtheist.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Ruski said:

but you could say "all Nazis" even modern ones

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Can you? Do you really want to stereotype like that?

Good point Jade, have you been reading Voice of the Martyers recently? A lot of those stats sounded familiar.

Okay, Webshaman, let's get away from the ethnic groups, and more toward the organized parties. You used to live (live again?) in America right? Were you part of a political party? I know you like Bush slamming, but was there one party you were favoring? Do you like everything that they stand for?

While it is true that evil things happened before, we have to look at why they happened:
Crusades - A man ordered Jerusalem to be taken back by force. I don't know where war is advocated by Jesus in the Bible, but I bet He would definitly be against that one. N.B. this act was started by a man.
Inquisition - Again, by people who wanted to force others into Christianity. Where is that in the Bible? Did Jesus ever say: "Force your brethren into chains and whipeth them into submissiveness."? Not so much, no. That is a person's ideas.

If you look at any thing that was advocated in the past by people you find at the root of them, people. Not what Jesus or the Apostoles said. (As a disclaimer, if the Bible is found, as in the slave situation, it is taken out of context.)

As for Native American treatment, yes WS, it was (is?) horrendous. It was an evil act by men that Jesus would have cried about.

I have been reading some literature from that time period by John Smith and a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. It was interesting the system of events that took place. Much of the treatement towards Native Americans was brought about by ego in the writings (John Smith using his "savage" guide as a buckler, or sheild, against the arrows of other "savages"). While I am not advocating what they did, I will tell you that I can understand thier reasoning behind it. I don't like the reasoning, and I think it is faulty, but I understand it: when they were attacked by a few tribes, and then literature was made about the Natives who were "savages," the whole populace was frightened of them. That led to misunderstandings and a whole lot of blood shed.

Do not rebuke a mocker or he will hate you, rebuke a wise man and he will love you.

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Paul did not advocate anything contrary to Christ's own teachings when it comes to this issue.

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Jesus never advocated taking up the sword against ANYONE. His teachijngs were about PEACE and LOVING ONE ANOTHER and HELPING THOSE WHO CANNOT HELP THEMSELVES.
So, yes, Paul did go against the teachings of Christ.

^ good point.

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briggl said:

Jesus never advocated taking up the sword against ANYONE.

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Neither did Paul. briggl, did you read all of my post? Where does Paul advocate taking up the sword against anyone?

About Jesus being all about PEACE, how do you view these words of his?

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Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn ?a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughterinlaw against her motherinlaw- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.?
?Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

--Matthew 10:34-37

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I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, motherinlaw against daughterinlaw and daughterinlaw against motherinlaw.?

--Luke 12:49-53

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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-26-2005 17:33)

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DL, We, Christians have been persecuted since our beginnings and are even persecuted today? So, it is us too, in fact much more so that evil has been directed at. But, you don'ts see us bringing it up on a daily basis and making a point to pinpoint the perpetrators.

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Can you please tell me how persecution of chirstians (which, by the way, was most certainly *NOT* happening during the period that I have mentioned, mot by any means whatsoever...) has anything whatsoever to do with the atrocities committed by christians, in the name of christ?

Because christians were persecuted in the past, it was ok for them to then burn people alive whenever they felt like it? It was ok for them to commit mass murders of jews and muslims whenever the desire hit them? It was ok for them to imprison, torture, rape and murder in the name of christ, because they had been persecuted centuries before? It's ok for them to travel to new lands, and kill by the millions the native inhabitants, because they weren't christian?

And let's be realistic: regardless what is going on *today*, or what happened for a couple hundred years before christianity took hold, christians as a group held the reins of terror in the western world for more than 1,600 years.

How can you so nonchalantly brush this aside as irrelevant?

*that* is unconscionable.

They have never gotten over that little bit of difficulty with the Romans. I suspect any day, some of them will be suing the Italian government for the indignities suffered 200 plus years ago.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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About Jesus being all about PEACE, how do you view these words of his?

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I do not believe in God, and therefore do not believe that Jesus was the son of God. I used to like the message that Jesus preached, but somehow I missed those passages. Now I think he was just another itinerant wanderer like many others who traveled around at the time, doing magic and preaching anything that will cause people to give him food. Jesus just happened to have someone smart enough to perpetrate a reserection hoax after his death which made him stand out above the rest.

briggl, do you mind my asking what exactly did you find appealing about his teachings before? And why did you find them so?

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WebShaman said:

I'm still waiting for an answer from you Bugs on the Native front.

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I'm sorry, WS. What exactly was the question for me?


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(Edited by Bugimus on 02-27-2005 01:41)

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Jade is correct. If you're going to hold all Xians to blame for the atrocities cited, then all Germans are also culpable for the atrocities committed during WWII. It would be hypocritical to say otherwise. Not every Xian agreed with the atrocities committed by the Church and not every German agreed with the Nazi party but if you accept what WS said, then it has to apply to both Xians and Germans.

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Bugs, that is not what I said. I said responsible, not to blame!

By choosing to belong to an organization, you also accept a measure of responsibility as a member of it. Now, Germans are a race, and are also citizens of a country. They have no choice being born German - though they can choose to leave the country. And yes, they must accept the fact that in their history, the Nazis did commit atrocities. There is a measure of responsibility here, for each and every German to accept. It is to acknowledge that this has happened, and to come to terms with it, and to try and not let it happen again.

The same applies to members of Xianity, just as it does to the members of any other organization.

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I hope you're not suggesting that depictions of angels with swords indicates Xians were to force their faith on others.

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Bugs, let's talk about the "conversion" of the Native American Indians )North, Central and South) and the Aboriginies of Australia, shall we?

The Church sanctioned a lot of mass killings ("they don't have souls") - thus it was not murder. Later, after the Church decided they did indeed have souls, they produced a mass campaign to convert them - in anyway possible.

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That was what I meant with the "Native front" remark. Could you perhaps clarify your position on this?

(Edited by WebShaman on 02-27-2005 04:07)

Bugimus,
Why I used to like Jesus' message:
I didn't think he was tryiing to create a new religion. I thought he was only trying to get the Jews (of which he was one) to be more "Jewish" - to go back to the roots of their religion, of which a large part is helping those who are worse off than yourself.
Getting the "money changers" out of the churches;
Loving one another;
Peace - "give onto Caesar...", etc.

The passage that begins with "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." goes against all that I thought was good about Jesus.

There were a lot of people roaming around at the time of jesus, doing magic which appeared to be miracles, doing whatever they could to get people to take them in and feed them so they could survive. Jesus happened to be more charismatic, clever and manipulative than many of the others, so gathered a larger crowd around him. Also, he said some things that caused the Jewish leaders to be concerned with his teachings, especially when they saw his large following. So he was singled out and killed for this. Then someone (maybe Mary Magdelin (sp?)) came up with the idea of doing one more "miracle" and faking his reserection, which elevated him well above any of the others I just mentioned.

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Because christians were persecuted in the past, it was ok for them to then burn people alive whenever they felt like it? It was ok for them to commit mass murders of jews and muslims whenever the desire hit them? It was ok for them to imprison, torture, rape and murder in the name of christ, because they had been persecuted centuries before? It's ok for them to travel to new lands, and kill by the millions the native inhabitants, because they weren't christian?

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Again, is this all you can come up with? And again, you are making the same error of mistaking crimes against jew, muslims, etc as being done by an institution instead of persons. People murdered, tortured,, raped, etc. Did Jesus Christ himself and his disciples perform these horrible deeds? Why do you continue to harp on the past? Are those the only arguments you can come up with besides the Spanish inquisiton? Can you focus on the present? Have we burned anyone here lately in the last century? Has the Pope here recently ordered any community be murdered raped or killed in the name of Jesus Christ. Frankly, your arguments are getting old and your repeat the same arguments over. You seem to feel so threatened by Christianity. Why? The Christian institution is not some evil empire trying to take over the whole world today. Christianity in its many denominations today is quite beautiful in its splendor to spread and add to itself. It has many forms, many colors and works together to heal divisions to make it stronger. And in its mystery it is greater and powerful today than you can ever imagine.

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Can you focus on the present?

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The conversation, and the question specifically, were about the HISTORY of the christian institution.

Therefore, I chose to talk about, go figure, the HISTORY of it.

However, once again, you brush aside anything that heppened, pretend it didn't really, pretend the church had nothing to do with it, and generally ignore anything contrary to what you want to beleive.

You act no differently anytime anything regarding the church is discussed. You are incapable of dealing with reality. It is pointless to talk to you, Jade, and you have proven this incessantly.

Well, let have a look at modern day xian atrocities. Heard of Kosovo? Of course, the muslims committed their share too but it is just another religious excuse for excess on both sides.

In North America, the US in particular, your own state if I recall correctly. a bunch of god-fearing good old boys dragged a black man behind a pick-up truck until he was no more than a smear on the road. Just because he was black.

The Klan claims to be xian, proud of that? Or a member? They have been burning people on a xian cross for quite some time now. We haveno idea how many rapes these fine examples of xianity have committed and are committing, likely as you read this.

In recent years a number of gay men have been murdered by people who later claimed they did it because homosexuality is against the bible.

It is not particularly, unless you wish it to be.

Xians have bombed innocent people who worked in abortion clinics and shot doctor's who performed these services.

Today, cartoons are accused of promoting a gay lifestyle...another bit of sheer stupidity by...wait for it...xians!

BTW, you have not idea what the disciples did 2000+ years ago, if they existed. That book you rely on so much tells you nothing about their private lives.

Xianity is no threat in itself, it is just the people who believe it we have to worry about.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Jade = the Catholic version of Gideon.

*shrugs*

She'll probably just shrugs this stuff off, as well.

It's a she?

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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To see 1 billion Catholics as child molesters is truly a extremely dicriminating view.

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Jade:
How you got that^ out of what was said I'll never know. Me thinks a retraction's in order.

You do however give us a clear example of just how wrong an 'interpretation' can be even when the writings are only a few hours old.

Yes, I am female ehtheist, but don't let that stop you from letting me know how you really feel.

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The Klan claims to be xian, proud of that? Or a member? They have been burning people on a xian cross for quite some time now. We have no idea how many rapes these fine examples of xianity have committed and are committing, likely as you read this.

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This just proves what I posted earlier, people commit crimes and use their system of belief as cover for an exuse to do these horrible things. But they are not of God. And this has been happening since God came into the picture. People use God as a cover for many evil purposes. What comes to mind is televanglist and tent religious. Some are sincere, but lots are for greed and use peoples money to fill their pockets. One who comes to mind is Benny Hinn. Two friends of mine use to work for him and were devoted. But when they saw the focus was money, money, money, they were so heartbroken. If he was sincere before, he has given into tempation to do dishonest deeds.

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You act no differently anytime anything regarding the church is discussed. You are incapable of dealing with reality. It is pointless to talk to you, Jade, and you have proven this incessantly.

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DL & others,

Why, when you feel, Christians just don't get your point, you want to stop discussing or debating and want nothing more to do with them? We could same the same about you atheist but we don't give up. You feel we are stubborn, wayward, misquided and you label us ignorant, but we do not feel that way about you. Yes, we do deal with reality on a daily basis. We know whats out there, its just that we have hope and faith in a God who will never abandon us.

(Edited by jade on 02-28-2005 16:22)

Don't worry Jade, I never discriminate.

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And this has been happening since God came into the picture

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I thought there was nobody around when he/she/it "first came into the picture"?

Or are you admitting this particular god was just invented a couple of thousand years ago?

Sounds like the latter.

I speak not for others here, but if you damn xians would just pratice your little faith and leave the rest of us alone, I suspect the world would be a far more peaceful place.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

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Why, when you feel, Christians just don't get your point, you want to stop discussing or debating and want nothing more to do with them?

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It's simple Jade, you fail to bring a reasonable and rational conversation to an argument. Instead of focusing on reality you hide behind your Mickey Mouse talks, you ignore the issues that are being brought up and try to point out that "someone else" also does it.

You speak very subjectively and superstitiously, this will get you no where when discussing real life problems.
and as far as I am guessing that is why secular peopel are tired of this spirtual religious mumbo jumbo talks.

It's not that you are stuborn, wayward or misquided. You are simply unrealistic, obsessed with your personal beliefs and refuse to look at serious situations like that with objective and realistic view.

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Why, when you feel, Christians just don't get your point, you want to stop discussing or debating and want nothing more to do with them? We could same the same about you atheist but we don't give up. You feel we are stubborn, wayward, misquided and you label us ignorant, but we do not feel that way about you. Yes, we do deal with reality on a daily basis. We know whats out there, its just that we have hope and faith in a God who will never abandon us.

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I speak and debate (and even argue) with many christians here. I disagree with the basisc beliefs of all of them. We find many things on which to agree and on which to disagree. There are only a very small handful who prove themselves so unreasonable that it is not worth carrying on a discussion with any more. You are one of them. I should have known better than to even address you in this thread, but it has been long enough that the extent of your unwillingness to ever directly address an issue slipped my mind temporarily.

Don't lump yourself in with anyone here who is christian, and act as if my view of them is the same as my view of you - it is not.

It is important that you understand: when I say that your behavior in relation to the problems of catholic priests raping children and being protected is disgusting, I mean it very thoroughly. It is not an insult, or mudslinging. It is the honest feeling that you have instilled by your actions in defense of the issue, and you unwillingness to address it honestly.

Truly disgusting. And I will say no more on the subject.

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Don't lump yourself in with anyone here who is christian, and act as if my view of them is the same as my view of you - it is not.

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Wow, this is pretty strong coming from you. So I am heathen now according to you. Not Christian. And soley on my comments on the issue of child abuse & cover up in the Roman Catholic church makes that dermination from you.
How do you, a non-christian qualify yourself to determine who is Christian and who isn't. A majority of millions of Catholics think as I do. So they, according to you are not Christian either I suppose? Why am I not suprised. You seem so bitter not at all christians, just catholic ones.

So now, what is your critera on being able to determine who follows Christ and who doesnt?
You being an ex-christian yourself, I should find this quite interesting.

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speak not for others here, but if you damn xians would just pratice your little faith and leave the rest of us alone, I suspect the world would be a far more peaceful place.

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And are your referring to all religions of the world or just Christians.

I am a Christ believer and follower, contrary to popular belief on this thread from certain athiest and protestants and I want the same peaceful world you do. How would you go about attaining this peace? As you can see and hear, the world is not at peace. And I doubt that Christians are the ones responsible for the unpeaceful climates in the world today. Are you discriminating against Christians and blaming them for the world's unrest. This reminds of Hitler's viewpoint of the Jews being responisible for all things that are bad in the world he lived in. Some things never change and history repeats itself over and over again.

*shakes head*

Once again, the reality issue. An exercise for you Jade:

1) open a text editor or word processing program.

2) copy what I posted, paste it in.

3) copy what you said I posted and paste it as well.

read the two seperate pieces of text until you understand the purpose of the exercise.