Topic awaiting preservation: Somewhere in the Middle (Public Service Announcement) (Page 1 of 1)

This is a public service announcement:

Recently there has been a lot of debate between the so called Left and Right. These debates are well and good. Both sides of the debate are very vocal about their beliefs, this is also good. However, you should remember that neither side is completely right, and also that both sides are trying to make the world a better place. It is just that both sides have different ideas of what a better place is, and different ideas of how to get there.

The debate is what keeps the human race progressing. The way it works is that the right acts as a filter for the left, and it is a pretty good filter. Those ideas that really are good will make their way through the filter, but those ideas that are not so good will get blocked. There is also a reverse filter that the left does to the right. There are lots of ideas that the Right has that just are not ready for mass consumption and should be blocked, but the Right also does have a lot of good ideas that should make it into general consumption.

The result of these two filters working on one another is that we have a large society which can progress along a steady safe course. Removing either filter and we might end up killing ourselves. Without the filters we would have religios wars or we would have people trying to kill off all humans because they are destroying the environment. There are lots of ideas on both sides that just shouldn't make it out there.

The point is, both sides are needed. If we were lacking either side of the arguement we would be in a terrible place. If we were missing the Right we would have "A Brave New World" and were we to lose the Left we would have "1984." Again, both sides of the arguement are very important. And just because you do not agree with something someone says does not mean they should not be saying it, or that they are stupid. Try taking a look through the person's eyes you are discussing things with and to see why they see things in the way they do.

This does not mean that sometimes people say things that are completely wrong. I know that I sometimes make false statements from a lack of understanding of the issues. That is OK, you should point out the problem with the arguement that was presented, and then move along in a positive direction. Sometimes you will point out that something is just plain wrong and the person will not agree with you. then you need to go back and look through the other person's eyes and try and figure out why it is true for that person. There are a lot of truths that some people hold, that might not actually be true. It might be fun to try and get a better understanding of why the person feels this way in light of contrary evidence, but often it is something that the individual alone will believe and follow, and there is no point for your to discuss it with them.

Just don't forget that you need both sides to survive, any power of idea unchecked will end up going bad.

Dan @ Code Town

Interesting analysis, if a bit idealistic.

As well, it takes into consideration only the US Point of view where there is no obvious thirdm Middle Of The Road Party, as we have in Canada.

1984 is here Warmage, has been for some time especially in the US, though we have ourt share of it if not quite so invasive, here in Canada.

Look around you. Walk to the whitehouse and rail against Dumbya...see how much 'freedom of speech' you really have.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

This isn't about Partys this is about personal ideals. There are people on both sides of any issue, and there are those who have not really made up their mind on an issue. It isn't about party, and in many cases there is no middle of the road. You can't say, I am kind of in the middle of the abortion issue, or I am in the middle of have a separation of church and state, or I am in the middle on the idea of legalizing drugs.

I have a ton of freedom of speech. And I can constantly read about those who disagree with Bush. I visit NYC every couple of weeks, and I always see protesters out, they carry around pictures of Bush and associate him with the Swastika. That is freedom of speech and that is people standing up for what they believe in. This is not anywhere near 1984. What this is, is a society that is going through a process of globalization, and a society that is struggling to react to the massive amount of technology that has been made available to use in the last 10 years. I do not have my food rationed, I am able to pick who I wish to associate with, I can choose my own job, I can choose my own leisure activities, I do not have to swear allegiance to some party. I am a free individual. If you (living in Canada) don't feel you have freedom, you must have done something wrong, or do not take advantage of the opportunities made available to you.

I used to associate with a lot of people who would claim that they are not free, and how all of their rights were being taken away by "The Man." All the while sitting on their ass not doing anything about it. The people I associate with now get off their ass and do things to make what they think is wrong better. This is freedom, and this is a good use of freedom. They weren't free because they sat on their ass and didn't do anything. If you get up and actually make attempts towards anything you want you will realize that you really are free.

Dan @ Code Town

quote:

---

you should remember that neither side is completely right

---

nor completely left...

Sorry... it wasn't really clever, I'm feeling a bit cheeky...

quote:

---

You can't say, I am kind of in the middle of the abortion issue, or I am in the middle of have a separation of church and state, or I am in the middle on the idea of legalizing drugs.

---

Yes, one CAN consider themselves in the middle on all of those issues - those who don't care or have no opinion on the subject or who are not affected (like two men living together might not be affected by the abortion issue).

And I do think that there is still an amount of freedom left in the US - it is just getting smaller.

It used to be, when we Americans took a punch to the jaw, that we came back aswingin' - and not invading some other country on pretenses. As I recall, Bin Laden is still running around free. Why?

Our forefathers were obviously made of sterner stuff. I don't see a record of them panicking and putting up a mass of paranoid barriers and a lock downs on freedoms, just because of some terrible event. Yes, we took a hard punch - and good Americans died. We took an economic punch as well. And we took a psychological one. But it wasn't the first time, and it won't be the last time, either. It is foolish to think that we, as Americans, don't have enemeies. We let our guard down, and got cuaght with our pants down, just like the Japanese caught us at Pearl Harbor. We had information that something like this was going to happen, and the FBI was tracking the people who perpetrated the events. We just didn't take things serious enough. There is no need for all the restrictions on freedoms and the mentality of the US right now. We just need to remember, that we have enemies, and not to let our guard down. Ever vigilant, and ready to protect our freedoms is supposed to be what we stand for.

But it was nowhere near to being something threatening to our existence as a nation. The only thing that it demonstrated was that we are vulnerable (and we still are). If the Israel was not able to stop the attacks of the Palastinians, then no amount of controls can stop a terrorist attack on the US. None. If one is determined enough to do it, then a way will be found.

Anyway, sorry for that little rant.

(Edited by WebShaman on 02-23-2005 18:19)

Something interpellated me WS:

quote:

---

It is foolish to think that we, as Americans, don't have enemeies.

---

Who said this?

(Edited by kimson on 02-23-2005 18:19)

I did.

And it is in reference to the point that America tends to lull itself into letting its guard down, when there are no apparent enemies in sight.

I agree I took the initial post more in a political than individual sense.

Nevertheless, my positon remains essentially unchanged and I must add I agree far more with WS' post than your response WM.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

Yes WS, from an European point of view, what you've highlighted seem to be a real problem in America.

??

Kimson, I am an American. I am a Vet of the first gulf War. My view is very American, not European. I currently reside in Germany, that is all.

Maybe you wish to re-state your post?

(Edited by WebShaman on 02-24-2005 12:01)

No offence meant WS, really. I should have been clearer and shall try and present it in another and more developped way:

- I do not want to start the everlasting "is Bush a good president or not" debate, since I have never been to America and, being currenlty living in the UK, I might get quite a lot influenced by the media and the local culture. But there are a couple of things I am convinced of
a. He (Bush) does not actually act freely and "does not pull the strings". He is not the main brain of all this story. How can "his people" be free?
b. I am very scared of the political network inside the USA and the links and relationships between the USA and some European countries

- I am also very interested by WarMage's point of view, because from an European point (tell me if I am wrong), American people seem to be (I insist on "seem to be") very manipulated by politics and media, in a middle average and probably more than the rest of the world.

-I think the key point of this problem is the media. Who is actually free? I do not feel free here in Europe, only free of watching the programme I wish to watch or listen to the radio station that suits me most. But in any case we are constently attacked by political points of view, whether we want it or not.

I truly believe the solution to this problem is education

However:

a. American people seem (again) to think they have got the greatest culture in the world, and this annoys me a lot. Considering the fact that ALL OF THEM are European in the first place (appart from the very few initial Indians still alive - if there are any).

b. Here in Europe we get a European education, as well as Americans get an American education. But the key strenghts of Europeans is that the mix of cultures helps us being more open-minded, unlike Americans who seem to have taken for granted that their culture is "American" (but what kind of culture is it, at the end of the day?) and are, in my opinion, too much eager to impose it to the rest of the world.

To come back to my previous post: I cannot believe there are so many Americans who still think:

a. Their nation is protected from the rest of the world
b. The USA are thus superior to the rest of the world (even originally coming from a neutral country I do not feel protected from the rest of the world)
c. their president (whoever he is) will do the best for them, and this under any condition

I feel very sad for this "bubble country" and vehemently hope Bush (or his Dad or uncle or goldfish) will eventually stop cutting down on education budgets. This is getting really critical.

This said I realise my statements above might cause strong reactions, this is only my point of view and would be really pleased to be contradicted.

Cheers

quote:

---

a. American people seem (again) to think they have got the greatest culture in the world, and this annoys me a lot. Considering the fact that ALL OF THEM are European in the first place (appart from the very few initial Indians still alive - if there are any).

---

Well, I am a Native American, and no, we are not all dead. We are just not very visible. And a lot of Americans are from Africa, or Asia, or South America - from all parts and countries in the world. I would never say that that all of them are European. Far from it.

Do Americans think they have the greatest culture in the world? Good question. They certainly have the most powerful. How does one measure greatness? I would say, that the American culture is the widest spread culture that has ever existed and the most powerful. Does that make it the greatest? I don't know. I suppose it depends on how one measures greatness, really. I believe, that despite its flaws, when compared in all areas to any other system currently on the planet, it is a better system currently.

I have lived in a number of other countries, under a number of other systems of government (only Africa and the Soviet and China areas of Asia are missing). I do see some real gems in some systems, but overall, comparing all parts as a whole, the American system comes out on top IMHO.

I don't think it is a question that Americans (though I cannot speak for others, only for myself here) feel that it is protected from the rest of the world - as history has shown, this is not true. Rather, I think that the moment an enemy is off the radar, Americans turn to day-to-day living within the US, until another enemy raises its head. This back-and-forth is pretty evident in US history. I think most Americans find it incredulous that someone would want to attack America, because of course, they perceive America through a positive filter. I don't think it really impacts on Americans that they consume 80% of the world's resources, and that that has effects on other lands. I think most Americans think that they have earned the right to do this - a capitalistic system sees things that way, normally. If you have the money, buy it. If you don't, go out and earn the money to buy it. If you can't, then you will have to do without it.

I also don't think that most Americans think the President will do the best for each and every one of them, but the best that he can for the country as a whole. There is a huge difference there. Unfortunately, history has shown that this is not always the case.

quote:

---

They certainly have the most powerful [culture]

---

As I've already mentioned, I am not sure I know what the American culture is actually. Could you please describe it, so we all know what we are talking about?

quote:

---

despite its flaws

---

What do you consider as being its flaws?

quote:

---

the American system comes out on top IMHO.

---

How? Why? Develop please.

quote:

---

they perceive America through a positive filter

---

This is dangerous, in my opinon. This could lead the country to its loss. It may be a good way of cheering the people up in the first place (especially after the events of the few last years, as we all know), but I see this as a time bomb: the truth is hidden and soon or later the Americans will get a massive punch in the face. I do not wish this for them though. This is why I was talking about education.

quote:

---

I think most Americans think that they have earned the right to do this - a capitalistic system sees things that way, normally. If you have the money, buy it. If you don't, go out and earn the money to buy it. If you can't, then you will have to do without it.

---

very interesting. I think you are right. It's slefish from both American and European to act like this, and the worst point is that most of the governments of our countries bluff the people by letting them think they (politicians) are doing something against this (pollution, global warmth, etc.).

quote:

---

I also don't think that most Americans think the President will do the best for each and every one of them, but the best that he can for the country as a whole

---

However I have seen some bits of American political campains in which you can truely see that they let people think politicians are talking to each and other individual. The common trend is indeed to customisation in most sectors and politics is not avoiding it. Although I undersand you have to reach the individual to gain the global, if I may put it this way, this leads the people to a huge confusion, if you see what I mean. Again this is very dangerous and it appears to me like an abuse of power in the sake of getting more votes and "lobotomisating" the people. People get the feeling politicians are talking to them personnaly, they get their trust and can do what they want with them afterwards.

That's it. SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE. Everything's fine, c'mon get yourself a life, earn money, spend money, make kids, kill your wife, and so on... and while the people are actually busy getting themselves a life (or destroying it due to an unbearable boredom, fear, or both, or whatever), guess who's having a laugh? This is what I am more concerned about. What is in fact happening behind the scene while we're all struggling to get a new house, car, boat trip to the moon or whatever?

I do not think any system on this planet is worther than any other one. If you're not part of the third world, which is already massive crap, your system stinks even worse than shit. I feel ashamed for us human being.

Sorry for this outburst, I shall calm down

quote:

---

As I've already mentioned, I am not sure I know what the American culture is actually. Could you please describe it, so we all know what we are talking about?

---

Go to here American Culture <- Link Fixed

This blog has some interesting insights from inside American Culture

I'm sure a tip-toe through google would also reveal much more to you.

quote:

---

What do you consider as being its flaws?

---

Flaws. Well, I consider the way that health care is done to be flawed. I find that the political system has turned into a farce, with all the "spam money" or contributions being badly disguised bribes. The electorial college is flawed, IMHO. The two party system which is rutted into the American mentality and political landscape is flawed, IMHO. The American attitude towards the global environment is hugely flawed, IMHO. There are more tiny flaws that I could nitpick at, but the above are important flaws to me.

The American system comes out on top IMHO

quote:

---

How? Why? Develop please.

---

Because it is the best system presently that allows one to reach their highest potiential. You still CAN start with nothing, and rise to unparalleled heights (money, fame, achievement, etc) in America - the American Dream. It is getting harder, but it is still possible. The values that the American culture instills are good values, as well (belief in oneself, in one's country, freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - all are created equal, etc).

quote:

---

That's it. SHINY HAPPY PEOPLE. Everything's fine, c'mon get yourself a life, earn money, spend money, make kids, kill your wife, and so on... and while the people are actually busy getting themselves a life (or destroying it due to an unbearable boredom, fear, or both, or whatever), guess who's having a laugh?

---

Don't think that all Americans are so naive, or blind. Many are. Many are not. Truth is, Americans come in all sizes, colors, and flavors. Waves do tend to sweep through the land, and unite the otherwise many, different groups together, but they also pass, and get replaced by another, and so on.

quote:

---

I do not think any system on this planet is worther than any other one.

---

I disagree very stongely with this. You are in essence saying that the Nazis (fascism), the Old Soviet block (communism), and Divine right (kingdoms like Saudia Arabia) is equal to Democracy? That they are just as worthy?

I disagree.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

(Edited by WebShaman on 02-24-2005 18:10)

quote:

---

Go to here American Culture

This blog has some interesting insights from inside American Culture

I'm sure a tip-toe through google would also reveal much more to you.

---

(There is something wrong with the first link)
I see your point, but I was interested in your views on American culture (anyone's point of view actually). To many people outside the USA, it's all about fat food, hot chicks, Hollywood, war(s) and so on - of course it is silly to think so, I just wanted to know more.

quote:

---

You still CAN start with nothing, and rise to unparalleled heights (money, fame, achievement, etc) in America

---

I have noticed it is the case or similar here in the UK, more than in any other European country I know a bit or well. But it sounds like an illusion to me. I mean, I'd find it great to have one or more of the things you've mentioned (money, fame, ...) but at the end of the day I'm not sure this is really important.
What I am trying to say is that in the USA, more than anywhere else, people tend to aspire to the wrong things.
You said: *quote*belief in oneself, in one's country, freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness*/quote*
But what does this all mean actually? Again belief in one's country, trust in on's president and all, but to go where? This make thick, selfich and arrogant people towards the rest of the world. And what is the meaning of happiness to th Americans? *quote*and rise to unparalleled heights (money, fame, achievement, etc)*/quote*? I'm not saying it's bad, happy+healthy individuals = happy+healthy nation, but their kid are still getting fatter and fatter, killing each other more than anywhere else, and their popstars don't find anything better than pretending "serious sickness" during very serious trials...

I am sorry, but I, as a young person, do not want this for a living. I am not interested.

quote:

---

disagree very stongely with this. You are in essence saying that the Nazis (fascism), the Old Soviet block (communism), and Divine right (kingdoms like Saudia Arabia) is equal to Democracy? That they are just as worthy?

---

I must admit you are right here. I went a bit over the top and will moderate my words in the future. But here and again, I do not think the American system is the best, as it sounds really too fake to me, and look forward to find the system that suit me most.

For my 2 cents, I do feel that we must look beyond boundaries, barriers and oceans and party lines in creating a better world for all of us. We all are all inhabitants in this great big world. What one country does affects us all be it in terms of the global economy & government. It would be an ideal if we could all think of us as one instead of them or us domestically and globally. If USA has to be the watchdog in who or who isn't abiding by international law then who else is going to be responsible? How de we protect ourselves and interest? How has the United Nations since its inception helped in stopping horrible dictators get away with horrible crimes against humanity. Who grades them? I think the USA's aim is to provide global peace for all. To say, if it doesn't interfere with my government or my life, its not my affair or my business, is to be ignorant. And to do that is to hide one's head in the sand. To go to war with Iraq wasn't an easy decision, and to think the main reason was for money just makes the deaths of these US servicemen giving their lives seem trivial. How can we even think that money was the sole motive for going to war. Internationally, there is more going on out there that any of us could imagine in terms of hostile forces. I am sure the USA has stopped many would be assassinates and plots to destroy or harm US interest. I do love the America I live in with its flaws and am proud that we don't stick our head in the sand and stand up for the oppressed peoples of this world. When more governments are at peace then this world looks towards becoming a more peaceful planet for us all.


Web, Are your really a full native American? If so, elaborate on what tribe, etc.

You have no European ancestry?

Most of my ancestors are from Mexico going all the way back to the Aztec Indians, but I still have a little Spaniard blood. Most of my roots are from the Americas though. I still have relatives living deep in the boonies on the outskirts of Mexico city and my husband does also. On my mothers side, it is more Spanish, with blue eyes and blond hair. Here in Texas, which use to be Mexico, a lot Mexican families never went anywhere. They became Texans. I know there is a lot of Indian culture used in the daily lives of many Hispanic Americans even today. Do you use any traditional practices from your Indian culture today?

As a next door neighbour to the US and without intending to be the least bit negative, I have a few observations.

For the most part many of us here consider Americans (they are mis-named as both Mexicans and Canadians are also residents of North America and thus americans) individually pretty good folks with generous dispositions.

As a group though, they are usually the brunt of many jokes.

The problem is they are pretty insular and as a general statement don't have as vast knowledge of anything much further than 100 miles from wherever they were born. Clearly there are exceptions.

Allow me two stories to exemplify my contention;

A number of years ago I was walking through our downtown, saw two fellas standing on a busy street corner looking a bit lost. In my best chamber of commerce manner I enquired if I might be of assistance as they appeared to be visitors. These were two men in their mid 30's, from their speech, well educated. They advise me they had 3 days off and had come from California to "see" (quotes mine) Canada. Impressed I enquired what they had "seen" so far. They advised they had "seen" Vancouver the day before, would "see" Victoria today and "see" Ottawa tomorrow. Impressed again I enquired what they were flying? Flying? they said, we are driving. I enquired whether they were aware that Ottawa was close to 4000 miles away? Looking a bit non-plussed, they decided they would spend an extra day in Victoria.

On a second occasion I encountered a couple who were house-hunting. Again,. well dressed, well spoken and in their early 40's. The said they had looked at a fine house but that it was close to a local native reservation and they had concerns. I, in my best jocular manner, assured them they had nothing to fear as that particular tribe had not scalped anyone for several months. Their mouths fell open and their eyes went wide...it took me 10 minutes to assure them I was joking.

These are not isolated stories. Tap anyone in Canada who has regular exposure to touring Americans and you will find many such tales.

All this goes to my contention Americans (I call them middle Americans, as they are between us and the Mexicans) are so focussed on their own culture and country they are largely unaware as a group, they are not alone on this planet.

Thus, when they are attacked by a foreign country, it comes as quite a shock to them to be reminded that they are not only not alone, but that the other denizens don't share the same halcyon opinion of them that they have of themselves.

On the whole though, I think the world is better for their presence.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.
Oscar Levant
(1906 - 1972)

quote:

---

How has the United Nations since its inception helped in stopping horrible dictators get away with horrible crimes against humanity. Who grades them? I think the USA's aim is to provide global peace for all

---

Here we go again... no, no and no! I always have and will always disagree with this! How on earth can you forget about the millions of innocent deaths (I know, on both sides, but hey?!) caused by American arrogance during the last few decades? And in the name of peace?! My arse... I do not believe in Indepedence Day, nor Armagedon, nor The Day After Tomorrow and all this crap! I am not surprised Swartzernegger set himself to politics! You mix everything up, this is not reality, I'm afraid it's loads of bullshit!
Comments like these make me sick.
WE (I, AS WELL AS MOST OF THE PEOPLE I KNOW) DON'T WANT AMERICAN'S PSEUDO MESSY HELP BUT A BIT OF REALISM AMD HUMILITY.

Again, American's values are not ours and there is no way I will make them mine. no f... bloody way.

quote:

---

To go to war with Iraq wasn't an easy decision

---

Yeah right...

quote:

---

and to think the main reason was for money just makes the deaths of these US servicemen giving their lives seem trivial

---

This is absolutely it. The saddest thing ever in the history of Humanity. MILLION OF DEATHS FOR NOTHING.

Don't tell me there is no other way to avoid this butchery?!

quote:

---

All this goes to my contention Americans (I call them middle Americans, as they are between us and the Mexicans) are so focussed on their own culture and country they are largely unaware as a group, they are not alone on this planet.

Thus, when they are attacked by a foreign country, it comes as quite a shock to them to be reminded that they are not only not alone, but that the other denizens don't share the same halcyon opinion of them that they have of themselves.

---

Yes, absolutely, thank you Etheist.

quote:

---

On the whole though, I think the world is better for their presence.

---

No doubt about it. Just wish they used their power on good and realistic purposes. That would be brilliant and I would definitely be convinced.

just remember, 50% of the people are below average.

bit of a scary thought really. then you work retail and it all makes sense.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Kimson,

What about the thousands upon thousands of Iraqis, Sadam and his sons brutally murdered? Men, women and children were brutally killed? What about the Kurds who were gased with chemicals? How do you feel about their deaths? Had Sadam not been stopped, he would of never stopped the murders of his own people who were not armed and able to defend themselves.

Warmage,

I'm coming into this thread a bit late. I've just read your initial words and your point is well taken.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Just popping in to post a relevent link. Over on Archive.org there is a 7 hour seminar on the US Constitution from Michael Badnarik which covers the ideas of left and right fairly well. If anything, and if interested of course, be sure to watch the first 2 hours. The second hour he talks specificlly about left/right, but the first hour is recommended to put in in proper perspective. Very interesting stuff and was a real eye opener for me. (While this is on the US Constitution, it is also recommended to any non-US citizens who wish to understand our country better.)

Constitution Class taught by Michael Badnarik

Basically it goes like this:

The left wants control of the money and property (socialism) and the right wants control of thought and actions (tyranny, mob rule). The combination of these two leaves us with a not so bright future. That of course is a very simplified view, but accurate nonetheless.

All rights derive from property. So as the left strips property, the right strips personal liberties and actions. The right is enabled to do this through the actions of the left, and vice versa. It is a downward spiral.

Meanwhile, the American people, even myself, fall into the trap of being separated by their government. If government was not involved in every facet of our lives, there would be no debate. You do what you want on your property, and I will do what I want on mine. The problem is, we have no property. You think you own property, unless you live in Texas, think again. You think you own your car? Your house? Anything? Think again. Without property we will have no rights, and without rights we have no liberty.

Of course, he expounds upon these concepts much better than I possibly can.

Ramasax