Topic awaiting preservation: Let us talk about Prayer. II (Page 2 of 3)

if the holy spirit - which bibically speaking does not generally "work with" people as a whole - it 'enters into' people to spread the word of god on an individual basis....those who are considered prophets are considered to have had the holy spirit in them - were actually 'working with each one individually' then it should be that the message would be completely universal.

If we're all being told the same thing by the same divinity...it should be crystal clear.

There are homes full of nice people who are filled with the holy spirit and other odd things.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Found anything out about Lucretius yet, E-man?

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1 Corinthians 6:1
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?

John 14:26
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2 Peter 1:21
for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God

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^A little scripture about the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit is within each and every believer. If you have the Holy Spirit, you are a Christian. If you do not have it, you are not a Christian. Many, however, do not allow the Spirit to have full reign in their lives. The Spirit tries to help out in everything that we do, however, some shove Him out. When that happens different interpretations of Scripture happens. At least, that is my theory. I truly do not know why there are so many who have different interpretations, I am just a man.

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DL-44 said:

If we're all being told the same thing by the same divinity...it should be
crystal clear.

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Scriptures have a different emphasis for different people. For instance, I used to be (and still am a little) heavy in the lust department. THose key passages stick out to me about lust etc. To someone else they may skim over those passages, and take more emphasis on others. This is where, I believe, the Holy Spirit leads people. He takes them to the perfect scripture to help them overcome the struggles in their life (in addition to other things...).

However, like I said before, there are pseudo-Christians who give the Christian Church a bad name. In Revelation, Jesus talks about "Jews who are not Jews" being the instigators of evil and seperation in the Church. He says that they are from the Devil. Are they people or demons? Probably people. Although, some just mascarade as Christians. Those are the pseudo-Christians.

You do know that a Christian is a "follower of Christ," right? You can't be a Christian if you don't follow Christ. There are some who follow the Church, Saints, idols, lovers, etc. and are not Christians. Just to let you know.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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In Revelation, Jesus talks about "Jews who are not Jews" being the instigators of evil and seperation in the Church. He says that they are from the Devil. Are they people or demons? Probably people. Although, some just mascarade as Christians. Those are the pseudo-Christians.

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Uhhh...hate to break this to you, Gid, but the Jews don't believe in Jesus.

So...what does "Jews who are not jews" have to do with "psuedo-christians"?

They mascarade as Christians?

And what does any of that have to do with the idea of the holy-ghost giving everyone different messages about god....?

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There are some who follow the Church, Saints, idols, lovers, etc. and are not Christians. Just to let you know.

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Gideon

On what authority do you come to this conculsion? I try to emulate the saints. I follow a church. Who specifically are you referring to.?

Those who only do that. As long as you still have Jesus, it is okay, but if you only have those things, it is bad.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

Sorry, I was in a rush there Jade. In the Bible it says that Jesus is sufficient to fulfill everything you need. Now, everything else you tack on is extra, and some of it is good, like going to church, or emulating the saints as role models. I am probably one of the few Baptists that you will run into that thinks Catholicism is an okay religion, as long as Jesus is the center. If that is the story, I would rather people be Baptist, but I understand that other's views differ from mine. I think I learned that most from this forum...

But there are some people who go to church for church, and not Jesus. There are some that worship the saints, not to try and learn from them, but to ask them to grant wishes and favors. I personally believe that Jesus is the only one who can pour supernatural blessings. Although, I have witnessed some cool things through a video screen that a Saint has supposedly done. Pretty cool, I thought.

Hey Jade, who do you consider saints?

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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WebShaman said:

Uhhh...hate to break this to you, Gid, but the Jews don't believe in Jesus.

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Some do. All the disciples were Jews, and most all the early Christians were Jews. And just because you believe in Jesus, doesn't mean you stop being a Jew.

Christians are actually Jews. It is a really neat proof that Paul did in his letter to the Romans. I read it once, and I have not been able to find it again. Maybe it was in a different letter, or maybe I am not looking hard enough, but I do know it is there.

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WebShaman said:

So...what does "Jews who are not jews" have to do with
"psuedo-christians"? They mascarade as Christians?

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Kinda. They are called instruments of Satan. They are used to disbar the Christian churches of Ephesus and Smyrna by Satan. I believe that they are not demoninc Satanic worshipers like others feel, since elsewhere in the Bible it says that to have Satan as you master, you simply don't have God as your master. (Satan can embody many things like addiction, money, lust, etc.) They are most likely just those who try and lead the church who really don't have the Head (Jesus) as the Head.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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And just because you believe in Jesus, doesn't mean you stop being a Jew.

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Well not from an 'ethnicity'(birth) perspective if you will but, if you're talking religion you clearly do not know what you are talking about.

If what you were trying to convey is that there are Jews who are athiests, baptists, presbeterians and agnostics....you would be correct. But if you are a 'practicing' Jew... there is no christmas.

Jesus was clear when He said that He did not come to abolish the Law, but fulfill it. Well, if you believe what Mark wrote from eyewitness accounts is true, of course. Even so, if you don't believe that the Bible is true, then why can't practicing Jews be Christians? There is a person on another forum I met who goes to a Jewish-Christian church. Your answer is partially right for them. They don't celebrate Christmas on December 25, but every day! As I celebrate it, too.

They have a totally different outlook to Christianity because it is centered in the outlook of a Jew. The way he described it, amazing...

I would go to one of those churches, but I'm more into the Early Church instead of the Early Religion.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

christians are *not* 'actually jews'.

Paul himself was the main proponent of the idea that to be a christian one did not need to become a jew, or follow jewish law.

There were a great many followers who were very adamant that to be a christian, one must first follow the jewish traditions (which was still open to anyone who wished to do so).

But the proto-orthodox realized that such a requirement would not be very attractive to the non-jews...and so they did away with that concept.

By the end of the 1st century, the gap between christians and jews was already very wide (unlike earlier in the 1st century, when christianity was considered but one of the may jewish sects).

Very true, all of it, but not complete. Mmy Bible indicates the two words used for Jew and Gentile. The word for Jew literally meant "circumcised." And the word for Gentile literally meant "uncircumcised." Now many mistake Paul's words "Gentiles do not need to be circumcised" as meaning that they do not need to be Jews (go under all Jewish law). Not neccessarily. Paul was a man about inclusion. He (and Peter BTW) got the idea that Gentiles could become Christians. The main difference was that Peter thought they should be circumcised first. Paul said that they were to be circumcised of the spirit, not the flesh. Then he went on to say how some Jews didn't act like they were cicrumcised.

You can take from that what you want, but the proof (like geometry proof, not evidence proof) I was talking about earlier from Paul basically says that: Jesus was circumcised->we die and are born with Jesus->gentiles now share his covenant with God (being His Son) by faith. I know that you have probably already known that the circumcision was the Jews' way of outwardly showing the covenant they had made with God. Paul said that this coventant did not need to happen outwardly anymore. This is one of the first times that new ideas disgruntled old Christians.

[aside]The whole circumcision by faith was not Paul's idea, but he got it from some old texts of the Psalms or Proverbs[/aside]

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

Jews are still not Christians, Gid. The Jewish faith does not recognize Jesus Christ as the savior!

And according to what you consider a "Xian", then Jews practicing their faith are not Xian.

So...

Are you then saying that God's chosen people are not Xian?

Why entertain this bonehead? He is clearly not on a search for truth, but for attention. His are the most empty posts I can recall seeing, outside of a political forum.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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if the holy spirit - which bibically speaking does not generally "work with" people as a whole - it 'enters into' people to spread the word of god on an individual basis....those who are considered prophets are considered to have had the holy spirit in them - were actually 'working with each one individually' then it should be that the message would be completely universal.

If we're all being told the same thing by the same divinity...it should be crystal clear.

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Universal..... This sounds kinda catholic to me. Biblical interpretive messages should unifiy thru same teachings. That is the sole purpose for selecting and translating scripture. God would not inspire a holy book to divide. That doesn't make sense. Its contrary to biblical teaching. The holy scriptures prophecy is that all faiths will merge and become one. Though the spirit is with us all, and gives private revelation meant only for that one individual in his daily life, in regard to the spirit of the church, the biblical message is the same universal for all.

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But there are some people who go to church for church, and not Jesus. There are some that worship the saints, not to try and learn from them, but to ask them to grant wishes and favors. I personally believe that Jesus is the only one who can pour supernatural blessings. Although, I have witnessed some cool things through a video screen that a Saint has supposedly done. Pretty cool, I thought.

Hey Jade, who do you consider saints?

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Well, my faith has many numerous saints. I especially am partial to some. St Theresa is my patron saint. She was mystic nun who led a simple life and suffered much pain of an illness. She wrote a book, called " The Story of a Soul", which is popular reading for many centuries. I am also partial to St. Peter, John the Baptist" cousin of Jesus and St. Paul the evangelizer. I try to emulate their strength & courage in preparing others for the coming of the savior. I greatly admire St. Cecilia, one of the first virgin maryters, who was raped, beaten and burned by the romans, because she would not renounce her faith. I admire St Agustine the great theological scholar who is considered an early church father. I ask St. Joseph, father of Jesus for strength and help in coming to know his son. St. Joseph is also the patron saint of chastity. Padre Pio is a fairly new saint. He was a mystic, priest who was a stigmatist. He is a patron saint for those who are ill. There was a segment on Mysteries of the Unexplained show on TV. It showed how he appeared to some who were sick and they were healed by praying for his intercession. He is definitely a favorite of mine. Oh, but here are so many saints. I think most names have a saint referenced. St. Cyril, St. Bonaventure, St. Martin, St. Thomas Aquinas, (great Catholic thinker and church father), St. Joan, St Bernadette, St. Basil, St. Christopher, St. Patrick ( Santa), St. Theresa of Avila, St Faustian, St. Francis (another favorite), St, Catherine of Sienna, and I could go on and on.

Gideon. You are confused in the view that you have that Catholics worship saints. Worship is for God alone. If your familiar with the book of Revelations you wll see that the saints are mentioned and do pray for us in heaven. Saints in heaven are intercessors. Just like if you ask your mom to pray for you to get well or heal. In heaven, since the saints have already attained heaven, their power with God for us is stronger than your moms pleads. They are in eternal life with God. We are in communion with them now and forever. In our Catholic mass we follow Revelation scripure when we call upon the saints to help all souls attain heaven.


In regard to Jews/Christians-- We Christians owe much to our Jewish brothers. Our faith is considered as an extension from the beginnings of the
Jewish foundation. In my faith as Catholics we consider ourselves, Judeo Christians. Many of our traditions come from Jewish roots. Our communal Eucharistic ritual is from the Jewish passover service. Our rituals of reverence in teachings of the ten commandments, holy of holies, baptism come from the Jewish traditions. Our priestly vestments and how we uses incense, candles come from Jewish roots in Exodus. First 5 books of the bible are the Torah. Jesus was a practicing Jew who followed the Jewish laws faithfully along with Mary and Joseph. All the apostles were Jews. The Christian Way started when Jesus began to preach to reveal who God is thru his life/death. All who heard and believed left the old way to start anew with a living word instead of a written word. The actual inception of when Christianity started as an organized sect came on the day per scripture in Acts when the holy spirit entered the apostles and the church in the upper room. Many Jews were converted to the new way and many choose to deny Christ was the Messiah as they still do today. In regard to creeds or beliefs, in the way of worsip, Christians and Jews are not considered the same faith.

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the biblical message is the same universal for all.

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While that makes a fine little speech, and sounds great, it is clearly not the case - as has been shown repeatedly in this discussion and in the world at large.

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Gideon. You are confused in the view that you have that Catholics worship saints.

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We've covered this one before too. I just hope, for your sake, that if the god you beleive in exists, he is in the habit of letting people off on technicalities
The difference is a matter of semantics at best.

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Ehtheist said:

Why entertain this bonehead? He is clearly not on a search for truth, but for
attention. His are the most empty posts I can recall seeing, outside of a
political forum.

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And yours are about provocation. Listen E-man, contribute or don't, but I don't like being called "empty" without some back-up. IF you can back it up, I might even agree with you.

Thanks Jade. I was wanting a different kind of answer, but this one will work. Yeah, I guess I must have had the wrong idea before, sorry about that. Most of my knowledge comes from ex-Catholics, so I guess it is kinda biased.

So if I make some mistakes, I am sorry. I think what you say is that the saints interceed on our behalf in heaven, right? Well, I believe that all who accept Christ are saints. I know that isn't really what the Catholic Church believes, necessarily, but that is the conclusion I have come to. So having people like that praying for you has to be good. Plus, them acting as a role model is good too.

As for the whole "one church" thing, I agree on that, but not that it is exclusively Catholic. To me a church is not a building, but a people. So to me, the Church of God, the Bride of Jesus, is the entire body of believers on this planet. As for the differences in doctrine, that will be ironed out with God soon enough...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

666 (shudder all ye faithful, quake in your bones all ye believers, for the "Mark of the Beast" is upon you!)
Another biblical myth has been blasted into the ether.

I heard Bernie on KGO last night revealing some recent studies of some old fragments of biblical writing has revealed; the long-loved xian boogey-man of the "Mark of the Beast" is wrong.

It is not 666!

As is doubtless the case with the entire bible, it was mis-translated, lo those many years ago.

The actual number is 616.

Which is the area code for Grand Rapids Michigan.

Xians will doubtless be surrendering their jobs, abandoing their homes and departing the vicinity of that erstwhile community in droves before the "The Beast" manifests it self in itheir midst and leaves nothing to remind mankind of Grand Rapids, but a smoking hole in the ground and a vile stench in the air.

Thoughout the US there will be a brisk business at government registry offices as befuddled and terrified xians try to have those horrifying 3 digits eradicated from house numbers, driver's licences, license plates, condo numbers, etc ad hilarium.

But dear friends and gentle souls, let us all hope the warm and loving hearts of xians everywhere reach out and embrace those stricken believers, who find they were born June 16.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

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It is not 666!

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Well.... that blows the popular theory that calculated" 666" referred to Pope John Paul as the beast and the RC church as the "whore of babylon"

This only proves my point that without an organized divine structure, you can make sacred scriptures mean what you want, if it goes along with your own ideology. You can incorporate your own private understanding and run with it. And then go preach about it to others then make a following and then open up a church, which would represent your own beliefs. And people would follow you too.

You are a nut.

I don't know who this guy is, but even if he is right, so what? I do not fear the number 666, and this 616 doesn't scare me either. It is a number. It signifies the devil. Satan got beat bad by Jesus. I have nothing to fear from him anymore.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

The point is that here is yet one more thing that was followed for centuries based on mistranslation of he ancient texts.

And ethiest is quite obviously being sarcastic.

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This only proves my point that without an organized divine structure, you can make sacred scriptures mean what you want, if it goes along with your own ideology.

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And again - with an organization like the catholic church, this is still exactly the case. The difference is there are a couple dozen people making things mean what they want instead of one person.

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And again - with an organization like the catholic church, this is still exactly the case. The difference is there are a couple dozen people making things mean what they want instead of one person

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Couple of dozen? Try in the many many thousands in agreement over the 2000 centuries till present.

And I know it was sarcasm

(Edited by jade on 05-10-2005 19:04)

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Well, I believe that all who accept Christ are saints. I know that isn't really what the Catholic Church believes, necessarily, but that is the conclusion I have come to.

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This is good. We as Christians are all called to be saints. We are all called to holiness. Some try to accept the call. I, myself am no saint, nor do I pretend to be one. But to live a saintly life like our role models saints is something to strive and aspire too because they were human like us.

I know he was sarcastic, that is why I (jokingly) called him a nut.

DL, my Bible that I use has many parts in it marked with foot notes where the Masoeric (sp?) and Dead Sea Scrolls, and other translations do not agree. They are actually surprisingly small compared to how much is in there. But there are a few things about this I must clear up:
1.)Accuracy
What Bible scholars and archeologists want is accuracy, so they may understand the happenings of that time period. Now, this little piece of evidence was found on a once illegible scrap of paper. It was dated to being older than the other writings, but older does not mean more accuracte. That is the general rule, but it doesn't always work out that way because of circumstances.
2.)Impact
Even if this writing is correct, that will only mean that the numbers have changed and the superstitious will have a different number to fear. It also means that a few movies would have to be redone, but that is about the extent of things. It is nothing new that copying mistakes happen over years. That has been documented in several books where things don't match up. This won't really change too many things. It is like saying that the actually two cities destroyed were Sodor and Gomorrah.

A few things will be rewritten, but I don't really see the big deal...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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So to me, the Church of God, the Bride of Jesus, is the entire body of believers on this planet. As for the differences in doctrine, that will be ironed out with God soon enough...

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This is very good too. We are almost in sync. I definitely believe as in a marriage union of two humans as bridegroom and bride, the writers of scripture gives us a clear understaning on how deep our union with God should represent. A oneness as when two total committed persons give themselves to each other totally forever in a marriage feast as in the wedding feast of the lamb from scripture. The reference to the church as bride is also a great mystery in how our relationship with God is also in the abstract. A church represented in scripture is also referrring a building, a people, a evangelizing entity, an institution of ideology and a sacred covenant relationship. So, I believe it cannot be confined to in one specific view. Though my faith is not based on "bible only," we take much from scripture as a way in how we worship in Mass.
In this way of worship is how Jesus takes us each in full sacraficial communion of himself as groom claiming his right to us as a bridegroom who takes his bride on their first consumation. Here is a site that explains how all of our Mass is based on scripture.

http://myweb.lmu.edu/fjust/Bible/Biblical_Mass_Texts.htm

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They are actually surprisingly small compared to how much is in there.

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And again - how is this relevant? What your bible does or does not mention about discrepancies doesn't mean much.

Let me see...Wall, DL...DL, Wall.

Yup, I believe that is all the courtesy that we need here.

Truly, DL, I have the utmost admiration for your ability to remain steadfast in such circumstances.

One can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink.

These people don't want to hear facts, evidence, etc to the contrary to their beliefs. They will do everything to block out anything that is not in line with their beliefs.

I truly understand why Scientists have refused to testify in the Kansas city case of ID vs the State.

The facts speak for themselves, as you and I know.

Religious nuts and fanatics have always stood between reality and humanity.

And they always will.

So shine your light of logic further, may it never dim. Just be aware, that there are those who will willingly walk blindly forwards, denying the light, instead embracing the darkness like a life ring (as I'm sure you know this o so well).

I hear your words, and so do a lot of others.

I fully expect the coming times to be very trying for those of us who chose to persue logic, instead of belief, as sad as that sounds.

One may lead a fool to knowledge, but one cannot make them think.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Stupidity is a natural state. Ignorance is self-induced.

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I fully expect the coming times to be very trying for those of us who chose to persue logic, instead of belief, as sad as that sounds

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Considering logic hasn't produced any proof of the origins of the beginnings for that matter that no-doubt you will be in for trying endless pursuits as well. Maybe never in your lifetime & how sad you may never know.

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Considering logic hasn't produced any proof of the origins of the beginnings for that matter that no-doubt you will be in for trying endless pursuits as well.

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*sigh*

Guth's Grand Guess, for instance - just one possible explanation. Do you really think before you post?

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Maybe never in your lifetime & how sad you may never know.

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Right back at you.

I died once. There wasn't anything afterwards, just nothingness.

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I died once. There wasn't anything afterwards, just nothingness.

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Excuse me? If you really died, you would not be reading this post? You cannot die and come back. Your either dead or alive. If you saw nothing, your probably weren't meant to see nothing because you were out there in an in-between state.

I was recesitated, Jade.

I drowned. I was re-animated.

You know, CPR?

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Your either dead or alive. If you saw nothing, your probably weren't meant to see nothing because you were out there in an in-between state.

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These are some pretty interesting statements, coming from you.

If I can only be in one of two states (dead or alive, according to you), then how could I have been in an in-between state?

Would you please make sense?

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Maybe never in your lifetime & how sad you may never know.

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And neither will you. You simply accept a story as truth in order to alleviate your inability to deal with that fact.

~shrug~

It's only sad for those who can't deal with reality. The rest of us are ok with such things...

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If I can only be in one of two states (dead or alive, according to you), then how could I have been in an in-between state?

Would you please make sense?

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Ok, well.....I was trying to convey that you were not really dead in the spiritual. (You know when the soul starts to leave the body.. what is referred to as the "near death experience"). I assume when they gave you CPR you came back and didn't get into the spiritual state of dying. If you did, you could tell us about it but you experenced nothing, therefore you didn't get the the in-between near dead state.
I quess you could of said I almost died once but was revived by CPR.

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It's only sad for those who can't deal with reality. The rest of us are ok with such things...

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I don' t understand why there should be a sadness?

So you have tapped into the true reality as opposed to maybe what is it ????...3/4 plus of the worlds population that believe in worship of a God in many organized religious sects. That would mean there are delusionals in the billions compared to a small percentage of athiest who have got it right. According to you, we have to make up a diety, a heavenly and human God so life can have purpose and meaning as opposed to just inhabiting the planet for no other reason that to live a lifetime and die for nothing. Because life does amount to nothing if it lives for nothing.

The reality is that you and many thousands of scientist don't know and will never come close to the intelligence used to figure out how, why or where we come from, are and are going to in this big cosmos of life. And that is a reality. Its beyond human intelligence if in itself it cannot even unlock its own human key. Its like trying to open millions of doors with a key instead of the looking for the Master key which opens all doors.

We know this reality: That we are all going to die sooner or later. And then we all have all the answers.

(Edited by jade on 05-14-2005 03:43)

I am confused...why do you think that when we die we will "know"?

Jade...I am not even going to argue. Reality is a struggle for survival, there is no other purpose...
All life, mammals, reptiles, insects, microbes are continuously in struggle for their own survival depending on one another and change according to the environment. Yes we have documented many things, we have witnessed viruses evolve as they adapted and became resistant to particular medicine as they try to depend on our body for it's survival and reproduction.

Life and all this cosmos IS in fact very complex and there will never ever be absolute answer, only interpretations.
Now some interpretations are drawn from measurement and reasoning and observation of nature , while others deal with self glorification of mankind.

You can either accept that Nature doesn't revolve around mankind, just like sun doesn't revolves around the earth. And that mankind revolves around the nature and is interdependent to every other living organism on earth.

to quote someone..:

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It's unequivocally clear that life begins at birth and ends at death. And if most of the people on this planet understood that, they would lead their lives very differently. We always try to find religious or mysterious forces to fill in for our inadequacies, but heaven and hell are both here on earth every day, and we make our lives around them.

J. Craig Venter

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your fanaticism saddens me, jade.

(Edited by Ruski on 05-14-2005 04:16)

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I don' t understand why there should be a sadness?

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Um...you are the one who said it was sad, dear.

As for what we may or may not ever know, you are quite possibly right.

Science cannot give us *all* the answers.

It is not the intention of science to give us *all* the answers.
Please understand that one.

Science is not something that exists for the purpose of telling us *everything*.

It does not exist to provide us with purpose.

Science is simply a tool to test and explain the things that are around us.


The point, which you so clearly illustrated, is that we *don't* know how things began or where things came from. Using a god who has simply always existed and then created everything else as an explanation brings us nowhere. There is no possible way of knowing such a thing except that ancient man wrote it, among many other strange tales of the world's beginnings.

We don't know, and claiming that we do based on story books is not reality. It is escapism.

Have I tapped into the "true reality"?

Silly question, of course.

All I have done is to brush past the illusions that you cling to so desperately.

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am confused...why do you think that when we die we will know?

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Well, for belivers we believe our souls will rise again and live forever in our spiritual state and then non-believers they will finally know their destiny, darkness or light eternal.

how naive....

why do humans try to escape reality so much?

Ever since the mankind came to self awarness he tried to gain absolute control over nature, yet over time he couldn't...thus the ideas and wish for eternal paradise has developed. I am really saddened to see that majority of people do not focus themself to preserve and improve our only location of survival, which is here and now among every other living organism.

it is as if this sort of idea came to disgust with life, merely concealing behind, masked by, dressed up as faith in "another" or "better" life.