Topic awaiting preservation: Media Violence, Christians? (Page 2 of 4)

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Obviously you didn't learn anything. Just as I thought

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I think Gideon, like many of us is looking for truth as a seeking Christian. I apologize if I have ever myself gave the impression to you as not knowing anything. I believe the spirit works in all of us in many degrees. You have to know that we are a reflection of what the spirit of Christians are or try to be. Many claim us ignorant and docile robots in serving the Lord our God. We wonder why they don't feel & see the good works of the Lord and they wonder why we are so blind & ignorant. This forum sometime provides insights to why persons come to the conclusions they do. At best, you cannot not make anyone love Christ who is not open to love him. When harden hearts are ready they will see and know the good works of the Lord. We can explain ourselves as Christians in why we believe the way we do. I, myself know that my faith is misrepresented all the time. What people think we are and what we do is so wrong as opposed to what we are really about.


Ranasax

So are you a follower of chick publications and believe everything or just some of it?

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There is nothing bigoted about being against the false church.

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Ok. What church would you consider a true church Ramasax?

(Edited by jade on 05-13-2005 20:47)

Not being religious, I pardon my addiction to video-game violence with the excuse that it keeps me from actually killing some mouthy little scumbag on my journey to/from work. Unleashing a little bloodlust on some unsuspecting pixels is certainly more wholesome than becoming a full-on psychotic vigilante.

==I don't believe it! Somebody stole my sig!!==

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Many claim us ignorant and docile robots in serving the Lord our God. We wonder why they don't feel & see the good works of the Lord and they wonder why we are so blind & ignorant. This forum sometime provides insights to why persons come to the conclusions they do. At best, you cannot not make anyone love Christ who is not open to love him. When harden hearts are ready they will see and know the good works of the Lord.

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I don't believe I asked for any explanation of any kind from you in this thread, Jade.

In any event, you seem to be forgetting, that I once WAS a believer, and a quite feverent one. Sort of like Gid. In hindsight, I can see how I was, by looking at him.

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We wonder why they don't feel & see the good works of the Lord and they wonder why we are so blind & ignorant.

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I can only say, that finally waking up and seeing that for what it is, an illusion, is something you may never experience. You have my deepest of sympathies. It is like viewing somone who has been programmed by a sect that you were once a part of. You hope that somehow, someday, they come to their senses and break free, like you did.

Makes me shudder, and I am so very happy that I broke free of that mindset and grasped reality with both hands.

I was not referring to you specifically WS

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Makes me shudder, and I am so very happy that I broke free of that mindset and grasped reality with both hands.

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WS...it is of your opinion, that we are programmed. Just because you were once a Christian fundamentalist as Gideon and you left your faith doesn't make you seem or sound more creditable as to discredit Christianity. For whatever reason you were disillusioned with Christ in the sect you were in no-doubt you were unable to expereince the holy shock that develops when you have reached a level of no return. I have encounterd many Christians who have accepted Christ so they say, yet they are not living the gospel. They continue to go against the teachings of faith and think its ok because they have worked it in their daily life. Just one example, as Christians we are not suppose to have sex ouside of marriage or sleep around, yet there are many Christians who do so and feel they are living as born-again or have accepted Christ as their personal savior. To be truly Christian you must try to follow the teachings and not decieve yourselves into thinking as long as I am not hurting anyone, its ok. But the one you are hurting is yourself. I see many born again fundamentalist and my faith has them as well that experience temporary faith when they needed Christ for a crisis, and then left him as things turned back to normal. Or when things go really bad and Christians or Christian represtatives treat them bad so they turn their back on Christ. Poor Christ gets the bad wrap for peoples behavior. Where or are these persons really committed? I say not.

(Edited by jade on 05-13-2005 23:34)

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Jade: Ranasax

So are you a follower of chick publications and believe everything or just some of it?

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A follower ? Hardly. I simply agreed with his assesment that the catholic church is an abomination. Other than that, I have only heard of his name in passing.

With regards to which church is the true church, I really cannot say, and it is hardly important to me. The only 'church' I have ever needed in my journey is my personal relationship with Christ. I don't need a middleman, a holy pontiff, priests, bishops, or saints. I pray to God and God alone. Fellowship is one thing, but reverence directed toward those who place themselves on the level of the Most High is repulsive and nauseating.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
1 Timothy 2:5

The history of the catholic church is rife with blasphemy, lies, murder and death. This is not to say that catholics, those who IMO have been duped, are bad people. Quite the contrary, but the catholic church itself, at the highest levels, is dispicable and has, for all I can tell through it's history, been taken over by those with impure motive, and many say Lucifer himself. I tend to agree.

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Jade: Poor Christ gets the bad wrap for peoples behavior.

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Exactly my point.

I know my view is a radical one, but the history and makeup of the Romish church, in my eyes, only confirms it.

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"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."
Matthew 7:15

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Ramasax

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WS...it is of your opinion, that we are programmed.

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Well, yes and no.

Most get born into a religious family (as I was) and are programmed to believe. I was born into a Mormon family (and on one side of my family, there are hordes of very influential Mormons).

Be that as it may, your words are very typical of what I have had to hear down the years...

And it is exactly what one who is part of a sect says to one who is no longer part of the sect - one who has woke up and escaped.

Ramasax

Your post typifies what most understand to be the church and isn't. I can't understand why. Most Catholics I know are so nice loving persons. In our 2000 year history we have had the most loving saints an holy people. Our hierarchy through the ages has withstood wars, uprisings, dissent within, scandals, and still it remains committed and world strong. We have shaped cultures and have affected history all over the world. I can't understand why you have a hatred for an institution that doesn't get in your business or harm you. How does my church affect you as opposed to the Buddist religion affect you? Do you feel the same way about them also? Or is it just catholics. And if you hate the hierarchy, you must hate the 2000 years of them and that sure is a lot of years. We, throughout history have been seen in a very negative light. I try to understand it and can only come up with what the reason is. Its fear.

To be a bigot is un-christian, yet you claim to be christian as your personal God inspires you to hate the Roman Church, yet she has not personally affected you or your life. I don't get you. Christianity inspires love for all people and all faiths, unconditionally. What kind of Christianity do you practice?

(Edited by jade on 05-14-2005 04:08)

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Our hierarchy through the ages has withstood wars, uprisings, dissent within, scandals,

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I almost spit my drink all over my monitor.

'Your' heirarchy has PROPAGATED 'wars, uprisings, dissent within, scandals,' throughout its history.

What you have to remember, jade, is that many of us are quite educated - apparantly far more than you are - in regard to european history, which of course means educated in the history of the catholic church.

Your statements in denial of historic fact are just plain silly.

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he history of the catholic church is rife with blasphemy, lies, murder and death.

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And so is the history of entire early chrsitianity and judaism and hinduism and every other major belief humans have seperated themselfs among.

The whole faith was born on wars, constantly eliminating competitors and rivals

DL has said it and pointed out many many times that there never was and never were "original" teachings of Christianity.
It all started out like a boiling pot each sect struggling for it's righteousness, murdering, fighting, accusing others of blashphemy

There is very little information and evidence to the "orginal" teachings of christianity.

But I am sure you are aware of it.

When I posted the second time up above (the "tangent"), I neglected to reply to the comments that directly followed my first post. To WM, I would not presume to teach anyone here, but I am glad that you found what I said to have some worth. I appreciate your comment.

Now to clarify some of my statements for Gideon...

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2.) Jesus did tell the Pharisees and Saducees to "chill." But He also said to not to chill to the point of abandoning the law. What I got from your post is that as long as there is love, then the stuff afterwards will just happen. I can't really agree with that. Love is amazing, and should be given to all, but you can love a person, without accepting his or her beliefs (Like I do with Atheism. One of my best friends is nearly Atheistic, and another is very occultistic, or something along those lines, and I still love them both.)

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It is unfortunate that that's what you got from my post, because that is not what I meant. When did I ever say that one should abandon the law? I said that the foundation of all law is love. And when I said that everything else will fall into place, I did not say that it would "just happen." What I meant was that the building blocks of the law would fall into place on a foundation of love, because if you love God you will do what He commands. I was trying to stress the importance of love, because without love it is all pointless.

I will make a brief confession: I used to be a pretty severe legalist. I would argue viciously with people about the finer points of religion, always determined to prove my point. A lot of things have happened to me in my life that I don't have the time to go into right now, but I learned that love is not just "amazing," it is everything. I drove people away with my arguing and self-righteousness, and I thought I was doing God's work. Well, so did the crusaders (sorry, just got back from seeing Kingdom of Heaven). God's work is love.

I also did not say that to love someone meant to accept his or her beliefs. I'm not sure where you got that idea.

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3.) Yes. I agree with all, but if you see a brother walking out onto a busy highway, do you just let him "do his thing?" That commandment is about nit-picky things like eating habits, and minor doctrine. But, occult and Satanism are not really minor doctrinal differences, or an eating habit.

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"Nit-picky things like eating habits"? Honestly, I am surprised to hear someone as well-versed in the Scriptures as yourself say something like that. You know how big of a deal eating habits were in Biblical times. You also know that the problem the new believers had with eating meat offered to idols was that, to them, it was the same as partaking in the occult. Before these new believers joined the church, they also ate the meat offered to the idols, but this was as part of their worship of these idols. To the older believers it was nothing, since they saw the idols as nothing more than wooden and stone images, but the new believers didn't see it the same way.

The "busy highway" metaphor is one that is used a lot in churches, but I have a few problems with it. Firstly, it is not up to you to decide what is right or wrong for your brother, it is up to him to decide. Secondly, even if what he is doing is obviously wrong to you, what makes you think that anything you say or do to him will change his mind? You may talk to him about it, certainly, but unless he shows a desire to change, you will most likely be talking to him in vain. So what should you do? Pray for him. Pray that the Holy Spirit moves him to repentance, because as Christians we believe that only the Holy Spirit can change a man's heart, and even then only when that heart is open. We cannot take the work of the Holy Spirit upon ourselves.

Perhaps we disagree on minor points. That's fine. But I trust that the foundation of our faith is the same, and so I trust that you will decide what is right for you in your love for God, and I will decide what is right for me in my love for God.

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

I wish you would post more often, Suho.

While we share no such foundation of faith, I admire both your outlook and your ability to express it.
As I've said to Bugs fairly often in the past - remove god from your words and we're on the same page

^ Amen!!

Nice post, Master Suho!

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So, Jade, if you were faced with a suicidal maniac, you would base your actions on what God has said. Correct?

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Well.... it depends on the circumstance. If it was someone I knew then I would say or act differently as opposed to some stranger I came across. I don't have the credentials to do some psychology on them to talk them out of it. I would try to reason them to calm down and give them some TLC. Though I have had exposure to persons who had suicidial tendencies, they were not able to carry it out. Or the time in which they felt worthless and depressed passed. I always encourage prayer to most my friends anyway. If the person needs medication to help his depression, then its just a matter of getting them the right medical help.

This might be a pointless question, but perhaps you'll pardon my ignorance: how does one know what God commands? Surely (as in the Catholic Church) the commandments of your average organised faith are simply the expressions of mortal men; the middle-men of your religion imparting to you what they think God wishes of you?

In this respect, and as these Godly demands have evolved so radically since first being bloodily debated by mere mortals, a true believer surely defines their level of faith by how they have satisfied somewhat changeable religious requirements, as set down by that religion's mortal go-betweens? Even the foundations of a faith's teachings are no more than historical documents, written and repeatedly re-interpreted by mortals.

As the more obviously brutal or impractical elements of most faiths have become comparitively subdued over time, the commands to slay non-believers, stone bastard-mothers to death, or deny the meat of a cloven animal have been conveniently forgotten - but do you suppose for a moment that some of these earlier believers might have looked at even the most devout of modern "lovers of Christ" as timid and half-hearted followers? Untrue to their faith?

Always having had the choice, I chose to hold myself accountable for the way in which I lead my life. I shan't indulge in self-flagellation to atone for playing a morally repulsive character in a game, but neither shall I accept the role as a model for my real life. I'm not sure that I'd ever want to be part of an organised belief system that blurred my distinction between the two.

In that respect, I'd probably give up religion before fantasy violence.

^ You should hang out here a bit more. =)

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This might be a pointless question, but perhaps you'll pardon my ignorance: how does one know what God commands? Surely (as in the Catholic Church) the commandments of your average organised faith are simply the expressions of mortal men; the middle-men of your religion imparting to you what they think God wishes of you?

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WH. I will put it into this perspective as best I can. Thur the power of the holy spirit of Jesus Christ, I am lead to follow a religious faith, which I believe in wholehearlty. Though the faith was handed down to me from many generations, during my growing up years I practiced because that was what Caths did. I observed all holy days and teachings of the church. Into adulthood and after I married I grew lets say lukewarm, but still attented Mass because that was disipline. I began to persue interest that took much time and raising three children along with being a wife I did not dedicate much time in searching for why I believe the way I did. I started to study my faith because I was getting all these questions and I couldn't answer them as well as I should of . So I thought what kind of Cath am I? Because its one thing to be born into a religion and another when you have to come to the realization that you have to uderstand the whys of why you are Cath? This is when I began my spiritual jornney into the truth of my faith and thus began to grow and feel a deep intense love for it. I began to read church early hisory, its fathers, its tradtions, its saints. I began to feel a deep passion for reading about it. I began to grow in wisdom. I realized God calls you in small steps in revelation and not all at once. Because it too much to bear at once. The love of my faith became so important to be in its history and beauty. It it then when I understood the relationship in which God desires complete union thur his son. And how so good I felt. Thur the centuries though there was reforms and changes, the important teachings from Christ have never changed. Though mortal men are safegarged to hand down the faith thur the centuries, its continuity to remain true to the gospel never waivers. It was not about how many people the church persecuted centuries ago or what horrible scandals it went thur, it was about me and the Lord my God. ITs about love. The institution of the faith is still a beacon for millions of followers, because they see past the human failing of men. We, as believers always continue to seek truth, because the truth doesn't lie.

My good friend is dying of Cancer and has about 2 weeks. I see how she is at peace with dying because she believes truth has revealed itself to her. She is radiant, loving and not angry or scared to die. She is in extreme pain, but she continues to offers thanks and give praise to the Lord or God. I believe this courage comes from Christ. I hope I have the courage to die like this.

(Edited by jade on 05-15-2005 16:40)

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Though the faith was handed down to me from many generations, during my growing up years I practiced because that was what Caths did. I observed all holy days and teachings of the church.

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Or, in other words, programmed.

Thanks Jade, that makes things so much clearer.

Well... actually not, but at least you've given me an insight into the relationship between self-definition in the context of a religious follower/fanatic, and the determination of that religion's edicts.

I am now an enlightened being. The fact that I have always sought truth means that I should believe in God, and therefore lead my life according to some religious leader's ideals of his/her faith.

I'm so glad you converted me from a non-religious, righteous, moral, and truth-seeking person, into a religious, righteous, moral, and truth-seeking person. :P

I was not, in fact, questioning the strength of your faith, but rather wondering if the quality of one's faith can be defined outside of the constraints of the religion as defined by its leaders, or if each faithful follower of a religion sees themselves as truly righteous only when following what they see as the absolute word of God as related to them by a wholly human and mortal (and therefore fallible and changeable) council.

The answer you have given me is that faith comes first, then the definition of that faith (therefore providing the possibility that fanatics will always require some leader or other to tell them when it is okay to sneeze)... or was it that the faith is defined, but the comitment to it is a matter of personal determination... or was it that "I am adamantly religious, and therefore your question will go unanswered as I tell you all about it"?

I'm just confused now...

[edit] And I'm sorry to hear about your friend, but are you suggesting that only the truly religious are able to die well? I do not fear death, and I hope that I can go with a little grace in spite of pain or suffering - but I truly believe that each of us has a strength to overcome adversity (even in the face of imminent death) with-or-without 'true faith' or 'the love of Christ'. [/edit]

(Edited by White Hawk on 05-15-2005 21:52)

I've seen those who "believed" go yammering and crying to their deaths, and I have seen those who worshipped Satan go calmly.

*shrugs*

I don't see that that has anything at all to do with belief, nor do I see that it has anything to do with the topic.

Personally, my experiences tell me it doesn't matter what you believe, every person reacts differently when faced with their own personal death.

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DL-44 said:

I wish you would post more often, Suho.

While we share no such foundation of faith, I admire both your outlook and your ability to express it.

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Thank you, DL (and WS). You can probably imagine why I don't post more often in these types of threads--it's very easy for me to slip back into my legalist, argumentative self, and that's something I'd like to avoid. Debate and argument can be good, sharpening the intellect and strengthening faith, but (as you know) a lot of these threads devolve very quickly into mindless yammering. I only posted here because Gideon was seeking guidance, so I figured I'd offer my thoughts. I'm glad others have appreciated them as well.

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

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You can probably imagine why I don't post more often in these types of threads--it's very easy for me to slip back into my legalist, argumentative self, and that's something I'd like to avoid. Debate and argument can be good, sharpening the intellect and strengthening faith, but (as you know) a lot of these threads devolve very quickly into mindless yammering.

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Maybe if you posted more often, Master Suho, it would tend NOT to devolve. Just a thought.

Bugs doesn't tend to post much anymore - and a more "enlightened" side of Belief is always welcome (at least, it is imho).

A reasoned, well-written response I believe is always well received, even if it is not entirely agreed with.

Be that as it may - your post was well written, and well received!

Bugs who?

Gideon, I think you would do well to read and then re-read Master Suho's advice he's offered you. Don't worry about responding to them as much as taking it in and doing your best to understand what was said.

I think there is a definite parallel to the "meat sacrificed to idols" issue with regards to D&D and other media that you originally asked about. For some there is absolutely no problem with playing these games or watching certain movies. That is simply a fact as I know from my own life as well as others. Still there are those who will be adversely affected by such activities and they should abstain. If I could add just one more point from Paul it would be:

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So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God? even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. --1 Corinthians 10: 31-33

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The point is to never lose sight of our mission and purpose on this earth which is firmly rooted in love, of God and of our fellow humans.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

Are you back for good, Bugs?

Say it's true!

Sorry for the brief departure from the thread...

Hehe.

WS, I've *always* been here

But seriously, I will be coming and going for periods at a time. Due to new responsibilities and varying schedules in my life these days, it just seems the way of things for a while.

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

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WebShaman said:

Maybe if you posted more often, Master Suho, it would tend NOT to devolve. Just a thought.

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You know, I had a feeling you were going to say that. I can't really say that I have a good answer to that, except to say that is easier to avoid some threads entirely than it is to resist the temptation to verbally pound people into the ground. I am a bit weak in that regard. What can I say?

Bugs: Good addition. That is definitely the heart of the matter. I'm also glad to see you around again, too.

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Bugimus said:

WS, I've *always* been here

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"And Bugs said, Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the thread."

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

Gggg....Webshaman, you forgot to mention Bible Adventures....

Hee hee! I played that "wonderful" game some time ago--and wasn't really impressed with it (and I'm a Christian)! It's good for kids....

But...What I think is funny, is the fact that most people, in reference to Christian computer game making, bring up Bible Adventures and others--especially, when Wisdom Tree quite obviously made it for kids!

Why don't you focus on the demonic thrillers entitled Catechumen and Ominous Horizons??? They were a smashing success--although I don't recommend even a Christian playing them. Now, Saints of Virtue or Captain Bible are another story....

In closing, if I found a Christian playing the computer game "Grand Theft Auto", I would have a LONG talk with that boy!

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White Hawk said:

Not being religious, I pardon my addiction to video-game violence with the excuse that it keeps me from actually killing some mouthy little scumbag on my journey to/from work. Unleashing a little bloodlust on some unsuspecting pixels is certainly more wholesome than becoming a full-on psychotic vigilante.==I don't believe it! Somebody stole my sig!!==

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Sir, you are influenced by what you do the most--ask the Indian Sadhus, Yogis, and the Yoga experts.....

Here is a quote to ponder on....What I practice in a fictitious world, I soon practice in the real world.

--JFB

Gggg....Webshaman, you forgot to mention Bible Adventures....

Hee hee! I played that "wonderful" game some time ago--and wasn't really impressed with it (and I'm a Christian)! It's good for kids....

But...What I think is funny, is the fact that most people, in reference to Christian computer game making, bring up Bible Adventures and others--especially, when Wisdom Tree quite obviously made it for kids!

Why don't you focus on the demonic thrillers entitled Catechumen and Ominous Horizons??? They were a smashing success--although I don't recommend even a Christian playing them. Now, Saints of Virtue or Captain Bible are another story....

In closing, if I found a Christian playing the computer game "Grand Theft Auto", I would have a LONG talk with that boy!

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I was not, in fact, questioning the strength of your faith, but rather wondering if the quality of one's faith can be defined outside of the constraints of the religion as defined by its leaders, or if each faithful follower of a religion sees themselves as truly righteous only when following what they see as the absolute word of God as related to them by a wholly human and mortal (and therefore fallible and changeable) council.

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Ok. Sorry.

Quality of faith? Well, ... maybe sincerity or the truth of ones aspirations in faith.

For Christians its very clear thur sacred scriptures that when even the most sincerist believers are left to themselves without a guiding authority, they will wander off into error. This makes sense in any organization. Right?. Look at the thousands of Christians sects out there today each claiming authority. Yes, you can love Christ apart from a organized faith following, but the fullnesst of truth in what scripture reveals is that Christ's Church has the authoritiy to keep the flock together as one. How can the sheep be tended & kept together without a shepherd? This is only the visible part of the doctrine of faith. What about the invisible church in its divine communal rituals. The faithful need each one other to be communal in their offerings. For me, I cannot follow my own path., I follow the path Christ shows me along with many others thur the power holy spirit given to us at Pentecost. Together we are building Christ church up in the physical as well as the spiritual. We cannot do this alone.
Per Scripture:

For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. (2 Tim 4:3-4)

Who are the teachers referred to here?

I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel--not that there is a different gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:6-8)
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.'' (2 Thessalonians 2:15)
St. Paul writes to a junior bishop in commissioning his apostles:
Christ himself established the apostles with the authority to teach in his name until his coming again at the end of time. He promised them the holy spirit to keep them free from all error.

How does a human institution keep the church free from error?

"He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Luke 10:16)
and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:29-30)



Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. (John 15:20)
and you [Apostles] also are witnesses, because you have been with me from the beginning. (John 15:27)

When the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. (John 16:13)



Matthew 28 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

Here, authority has been been given and delegated to men before the church was incepted.

So the church in its fullness, is not only made of wood or stone. It has flesh and bone. Its also people, who without them the chruch could not stand alone. So the church needs people as much as the people need a chruch to guide them into the ages to come.

Actually, to tell you the truth this is the first I have heard of Jack Chick. If what Jade says is true that he writes stuff against Catholics, then He really doesn't know what Christ's love is about.

I apologize for the whole scare, but this article was not written by Chick. It was instead posted on his site with permission from the author, William Schnoebelen.

He was the ex-Wiccan High Priest I was talking about. Just to clarify more, he wrote that essay explicitly for Christians. It is not really meant to persuade those who are not trying to follow Christ's Way. If you do take it from the world's point of view it, as many other Christian works, looks like hogwash. Taken from a Christian perspective, though, it is an essay that presents some good ideas about playing fantasy games.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

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Taken from a Christian perspective, though, it is an essay that presents some good ideas about playing fantasy games.

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No.

It isn't.

Regardless of religious perspective.

Jade - if you were to follow the sacred scriptures to the letter, you might be a bi-polar schizoid psychotic who preached forgiveness and love while wreaking the wrath of God upon the unworthy; your brutal moral and humanitarian values would be completely out-of-odds with the supposedly enlightened modern world, and you'd probably be in prison right now, having attempted a defence of "...but they deserved to burn - they were copulating while unmarried, worshipping false idols [celebrities?]..." or something along those lines...

In context, I queried the validity a religious follower attributes to the contemporary teachings and attitudes of their denomination's ministers. It seems that their inspiration is almost worshipped as an abstract; an ideal that the chosen celebrants are charged with encouraging the masses to adhere to. I am now more curious than ever about the evolving interpretation of a faith's scriptures, the reconciliation of a religion's founding principles with its contemporary understanding, and the relationship faith has with personal belief; esp. the cyclical nature of faith and belief. Which begets which?

...and why is a question of the devout answered with a rant? A tirade of quotes, always selectively extracted or manipulated into a personal expression? Why is it not possible to determine what drives the person behind the worshipper?

I suspect it is a way of avoiding facing the real issues. A kind of fantasy.


JFritzyB - you astound me with your ability take a potentially profound concept and reduce it to cheap flippancy...

Perhaps you would like to note my later post:

quote:

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Always having had the choice, I chose to hold myself accountable for the way in which I lead my life.

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If I become a psychotic killer, then it might just be possible that this latent propensity for violent homicide was the reason for my love of (violent) computer games in the first place.
True - indulging in the fantasy might plausibly have hastened my ultimate descent into inhumanity, but without the desire to indulge in the first place, I might never have partaken of either- fantasy or reality.

Now, joking aside, I am simply not a violent person - no more than I've ever had to be. I am often criticised for being a little too submissive.

Anyway, computer games allow me to do more than reap carnage upon hapless sprites - they allow me to escape into a fantastic world of heavenly beauty or insidious mystery; to trade with bizarre aliens, or to save an entire civilisation from their demise at the hands of a brutal aggressor; to soar across galaxies in pursuit of unimaginable treasures, or take command of a naval fleet against a well-equipped foe; to free furry cutesy thingies from cruel imprisonment...

...or, once in a while, play the bad guy for a little gratuitous stress-relief. -->

As most other forms of stress relief are either frowned-upon by most religions, or possible causes of repetitive stress injury, then these little flights of fancy are sometimes the best (though most certainly not the only) relief from feelings of frustration or anger that are physically manifest.

Most of all though, games (inc. computer games) are just simple stimulation any time you fancy doing something that challenges your reflexes, co-ordination, strength, stamina, problem-solving abilities, team-playing spirit, or even (shock horror) for a little competitive fun!

Now, kids have played Cowboys and Indians (for instance) for generations, and yet it was there forefathers - possibly more devoutly God-fearing people - who virtually eradicated an entire race for their land (in a manner that was seen at the time as, if not acceptable, then at least unworthy of significant protest), or slaughtered eachother over their beliefs, or burned women out of superstition, etc, etc. These children don't necessarily grow up to become killers just because they put down their sucker-bows and cap-guns for a console controller.

In fact, it is arguably those whose parents failed to provide a balance of discipline and love, and encourage personal moral values, and perhaps who had no creative or fantasy outlet for their frustrations, who turned to drugs (which is not an entirely popular gaming theme), violence (not the 'saving mankind from alien invaders' variety), and murder.

It strikes me that one of the most prevalent asserions common to pathological killers and gangsta' gunmen, is that they have no way to escape it, no choice in doing it, and that they're the product of circumstance. They seem to think the world owes them something

Strangely enough, though I still have yet to see a mad gunman slaughter half a city with a plasma rifle, I often hear/read that the latest celebrity serial-/mass-/psycho-killer blamed his/her actions on the command of God, or on their belief that they were punishing the infidels, or simply because they saw themselves as doing God's work.

Ultimately, if you are unhinged enough to commit such an atrocious act as pre-meditated murder, then the playing of violent games would either not interest you that much during the inevitable degradation of your principles (who wants to play games when you've a gruesome murder to plan?) or would be no more than a temporary outlet until a suitable opportunity to enact the reality came along.

In conclusion, to answer Gideon's initial question, I really don't think that the devoutly religious should be given access to potentially inflamatory or violent media or games - they're just not well-balanced enough! It is obviously harder for the average God-fearing (fear of God = love of God?) neurotic (as opposed to your average plain or vanilla varieties) to differentiate between reality and fantasy; even to the point of questioning their ability to participate, uninfluenced, in a little role-playing!


However, I do worry more that certain games, video and music might be inappropriately marketed to younger age groups.

(Edited by White Hawk on 05-17-2005 22:46)

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I chose to hold myself accountable for the way in which I lead my life.

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Spot on! Nicely said!

THAT is the kernel that drives the realist, IMHO. Accepting responsibility for ones own life, actions and being held accountable for ones actions.

quote:

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quote:Taken from a Christian perspective, though, it is an essay that presents some good ideas about playing fantasy games.



No.

It isn't.

Regardless of religious perspective.

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Amen to that, DL!

Thanks Suho. I thank you for the reprimand. You are right about Christ's love, and how it is first. I must admit that I have problems with the legalistics too much as well. The nit-pickiness I was refering to was "kosher," I think it is called, but I could be wrong. I didn't think about the idol thing, and that makes sense. Thanks for that. About the brother/sister thing, I agree that it is the Holy Spirit's work in the heart, but I believe that if we see a brother or sister going down a dark path, we need to caution them. I'm not talking about yelling and storming around like an angery chicken, but at least tell them that it could pose problems. Just to clear up, it really doesn't matter what I think of the matter, it is what the Word says.

I personally think about such fantasy games that they have the potential to wreck a person's spiritual life. I know some can avoid the temptation, but a lot can see subtle changes. I was convicted a while ago about fantasy games and violent games, but I didn't (and still really haven't) come to a solid conclusion about it yet. I have researched, and looked in God's Word, and prayed, and am pretty sure that I know what is what, but you are right Suho, it is personal. I just posted that essay because it helped bring some info I hadn't thought about before into light, and I was hoping others might like to see it.

Jade-
About the church, I believe that there really is only one Church, the Christian Church that is the body of believers. To me a church is not a building, it is not an organization, and it is certainly not something worried about personal holdings on earth. This belief has come from prayer and reading God's Word. I don't believe that Catholics are evil, I believe the exact contrary and believe that the true believers are going to heaven just as I. But that does not mean I agree with everything in the Catholic Church.

quote:

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Ruski said:

And so is the history of entire early chrsitianity and judaism and hinduism and
every other major belief humans have seperated themselfs among. The
whole faith was born on wars, constantly eliminating competitors and rivals

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Ponder this: Jesus was more interested in dying Himself than killing others...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

Gideon: There was no need for a reprimand, and that's not the way it was intended--it was just some heartfelt advice from one brother to another. Glad I could be of assistance.

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | the Fellowship of Sup

I have a question for you Gideon - do Mormons, according to your belief, go to Heaven? They believe that Christ is the savior.

Do they?

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

Yes.

quote:

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Basic beliefs

You may have questions about what members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe. Some of the basic beliefs of the Church are:

* God is our Heavenly Father. He loves us and wants us to return to Him.
* Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He is our Savior. He redeems us from death by providing the Resurrection. He saves us from sin as we repent.
* Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can return to live with God if we keep His commandments.
* The Holy Ghost helps us to recognize truth.
* The first principles and ordinances of the gospel are faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
* The Church of Jesus Christ has been restored to the earth.
* The priesthood authority of God exists in His Church today, just as it did in the original Church.
* The Bible and the Book of Mormon are the word of God.
* God reveals His will to prophets today, just as He did anciently.
* Our life has a sacred purpose.
* Families can be together forever.
* Through serving others, we can experience joy and draw closer to God.

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http://www.mormon.org

Do they believe that Jesus Christ is their savior? Yes, they do.

Allow me to pose a critical question though. Is the Jesus Christ who Mormons speak of the same Jesus Christ described in the New Testament?

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

They do use the new testament - the bible is as integral a part of their religion as the book of mormon is.

Certainly, from my limited understanding at this point, there are some bizarre differences in the view of world history....

But though they seem to use 'additional' information, they do still also use the bible as a critical source.