Topic awaiting preservation: Who is the God of the bible? (Page 1 of 1)

I have been so busy I have not been around for a while, but I have been thinking about this lately and wanted your thoughts...

Is it possible the God of the bible is not the true God? Perhaps he is a fake, phony, want-to be God.

What kind of God would try and confuse the language of the humans for fear of them becoming God's themselves?
What kind of God would require the Jews to smear blood above their door so he knew they were not Egyptians? (Wouldn't an all-power God already know this)
What kind of God would be jealous of people worshiping other Gods and ban them from this practice? (Would not an all-powerful God also be part of everything, and thus a part of that so called icon.

quote:

---

The Dark Side of God - If you will not listen to me? then I will bring upon you sudden terror, wasting diseases and fever that will destroy your sight? I will punish you for your sins seven times over? I will send wild animals against you, destroy you cattle. If in spite of this you still do not listen to me ? You will eat the flesh of your sons and daughters? I will abhor you? I will turn your cities into ruins. - Leviticus, chap 26:14-31

---

Anyway, it just seems to me that perhaps the God of the bible is a fraud, and the onmi-potent, all-present, super-real-God just sort of sits back and watches, or does not even exist. Power and energy, our souls, this all exists. The ability to use our brains to heal, this has been documented and is real. The energy that flows through us, around us. Through the trees, plants, animals, and rocks. This is real. But God....well, who knows. I have a feeling though, that the God of the bible is a phony, and when I really think about, it makes me very sad. For if it is true, the deception he/she/it/whatever has played on the human race has been detrimental.

----| Asylum Quotes

(Edited by Gilbert Nolander on 05-14-2005 00:45)

Hooboy.

*waits for Gid and Jade to show up*

This might be interesting...

*gets out popcorn*

For the record, this view of god was present among many of the early christian groups.

Many viewed that the god of the old testament was inferior and fraudulent, and beleived that Jesus came to show people the real true god (most did not beleive that jesus and god were the same being).

Christianity was a huge turning point in they method of worship. Prior to this all religions while pious to one got in particular accepted without question that there were more than one god.

It is also of note that many of these early religions imployed heavy use of tricks in order to win the affections of their followers, allong with their wallets. If you do research on this topic you will find many devices used for such purpsose.

Things like counterweighted doors on sand based timers that cause the doors to open at a certain time.
Devices that move or make noises when a coin is place onto or into it.
Levers that when pulled release a gas that cause flames to errupt.

The populus of that time had no comprehention of science, or that there might be logical explainations for such devices. They believed it to be the work of the gods, and they paid a tribute to the gods temple to save themselves from their gods wrath.

Further, the types of gods that existed were very integral to the location of the tribes that worshiped the gods. If the tribe lived in an area that was racked by floods (tigres euphaties delta area) they would worship gods whose powers were destruction. Where as if they lived in a fruitful area, like Egypt by the Nile they might worship kinder happier gods. They types of gods that people would worship where very dependant upon the bounties or lack there of in their areas.

The God of the Jews was not very different. He was a terrible god who visitted many hardships on his people, reflective of the hardships that the Jews had to endure. But with the jews the laws of their god had a whole lot to do with survival in these turbulent time of war, and the nomadic nature of the Jews. Once they had settled the nature of their god changed, you have the emergence of the new testimate god.

There is a whole lot that goes, and can be traced into the creation of a god. It is not something that can be simply described. I have give a little more insight but there is much much more that you can learn about.

Dan @ Code Town

quote:

---

Prior to this all religions while pious to one got in particular accepted without question that there were more than one god.

---

No, this is simply not true - the concept of one god got introduced by the Egyptians for a short time. It is suspected that Moses may have been taught this by one of the surviving priests of the one deity concept OR he was actually one himself - as I said, it did not last all that long, and the new system of belief got replaced by the old one.

A very interesting bit of history.

On El --> http://www.biblicalheritage.org/God/el-def.htm

On Yahweh --> http://www.biblicalheritage.org/God/el-goi.htm

This kind of stuff is what makes me want to convert into Buddhism.

(Edited by Yannah on 05-16-2005 03:57)

Holy Cow!

Warmage, according to your theory that a nation's god or gods became kinder with prosperity, wouldn't the NT god have arrived during the golden age of Israel under David and Solomon? David was the second king, and one that everyone loved, and Solomon was the king of a rich empire. He had enough money in his treasury to build the first Temple of God, and he had enough to build the massive king's quarters too.

Another thing is that Jews as a whole may have thought that God was mean, and wrathful, etc. but many of the leaders and prophets did not. King David for example. He never ceased saying how God protected him and loved him, even in the midst of turmoil.

My point is, are you sure that formula applies to all religions and all people?

GL, I have been hearing a lot about this whole evil God bizz. Sounds like a bunch of hogwash to me, but I will look into it.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

I will leave that up to you to actually do some research on. Might be some good practice for you.

Also, I did not say anything about prosperity. I said location. And if by sure you mean know for 100% that this is in fact the case for everything. Of course not, asking for those kinds of probabilities are just silly. For the most part however in the vast majority you will find this. Again do some research. I am tired of feeding you information, just to have you snap at it without so much as actually reading what I have written.

Dan @ Code Town

^Hehe...I'm bordering on saying "I told you so..."

(Edited by WebShaman on 05-17-2005 23:23)

The God of the Bible? Well Gilbert, there is a problem with the wording of your post....

The problem is this....You asked a question. Then, you said that the God of the Bible must be a fraud.

What conclusion have I come to? The conclusion is this....That you don't really want your question answered because you have already stated that the God of the Bible is a fake and therefore, because you have already stated this, any answers that will be given you, may be "utter nonsense" in your opinion because you have already made up your mind that the God of the Bible doesn't exist--and no matter who tells you otherwise, you will still hold to your own opinion.

So...really, it would be a waste of time to answer your question....

However....Who IS the God of the Bible? He is all the things you said he was not. (Now, you have given me no proof that shows that God is not all these things. So therefore, I can discount your assumption that God is a fraud. )

"Is it possible the God of the bible is not the true God? Perhaps he is a fake, phony, want-to be God."

(Nope. All creation knows that there is a God and that He does exist. The people, 'a part of His creation', CHOOSE to not believe that God exists.)

"What kind of God would try and confuse the language of the humans for fear of them becoming God's themselves?"

(Earlier in the Bible, God had commanded those "humans" to spread out and not stay in one place. "Replenish the EARTH and subdue it." That doesn't sound like, "Stay in one place and multiply." So, since these people disobeyed God's law to them, He had to punish them for disobeying Him.)

"What kind of God would require the Jews to smear blood above their door so he knew they were not Egyptians? (Wouldn't an all-power God already know this)?"

(I can't give you that answer.)

"What kind of God would be jealous of people worshiping other Gods and ban them from this practice? (Would not an all-powerful God also be part of everything, and thus a part of that so called icon.)"

(Where do idols come from? Where do images and icons come from? Are they not made with man's hands? If so, why WOULD God "be a part of that so called icon"? If God is to be One Supreme Being, then He must be Lord OVER everything. He must be greater than all the gods and icons ever created. If you want an in-depth answer, go to http://www.bruderhof.com/articles/DyvaVileenam.htm starting at the 4th and ending at the sixth paragraph.)

--JFB

No, there is no problem with the wording of his post.

He did not answer his own question.

He did not conclude anything.

He said: "it just seems to me that perhaps..."

That is not a conclusion, that is an open invitation to throw out ideas and have a disucssion (funny thing to do on a discussion board, I know..)

quote:

---

because you have already made up your mind that the God of the Bible doesn't exist

---

Again - no, he said no such thing.
Try *reading* the posts you respond to - it helps quite a bit.

quote:

---

Nope. All creation knows that there is a God and that He does exist. The people, 'a part of His creation', CHOOSE to not believe that God exists.

---

Ah, that clears it all up. Thanks
There are actually great numbers of people who have no knowledge of your 'god'. It may shock you to realize that not all of the world was sprung from christain europe. There are many cultures with no concept whatsoever of the judeao-christian god. There are plenty of people who, even though they are familiar with the concept have never had any religious belief, simply because they weren't raised with people shoving it down their throats all the time.

Religion is a learned behavior.

quote:

---

Where do idols come from? Where do images and icons come from? Are they not made with man's hands? If so, why WOULD God "be a part of that so called icon"?

---

Quite. God is an entirely human concept, created in every facet by humanity.

=)

quote:

---

"What kind of God would require the Jews to smear blood above their door so he knew they were not Egyptians? (Wouldn't an all-power God already know this)?"

(I can't give you that answer.)

---

Hmmm... maybe this is a place where you should start thinking about the whole business then. These are supposed to be His chosed people, and He can't recognize them unless they smear blood above their doors?? Doesn't sound so all-powerful to me.

God was not made with human hands....and that is the point. The Bible states that all creation demonstrates God's power. Not only that, all creation knows there is a God (One Supreme Being) and that He does exist.

quote:

---

"Where do idols come from? Where do images and icons come from? Are they not made with man's hands? If so, why WOULD God 'be a part of that so called icon'?"

---

God is not made with human hands nor is the imagination of mere man. If you would've read that link I posted, your question concerning this matter would have been answered. But, you CHOSE to not read it.

Finally, ponder on this:

[quote]"If God is to be One Supreme Being, then He must be Lord OVER everything. He must be greater than all the gods and icons ever created."/quote] This would include that fact that no graven images were EVER made of the True God because graven images are the result of man's imagination.

--JFB

quote:

---

The Bible states that all creation demonstrates God's power.

---

Hehe...so what?

A lot of books say alot of things.

Or are you one of those that takes the bible literally?

You have not offered one shred of evidence to support your position.

[quote]

quote:

---

"If God is to be One Supreme Being, then He must be Lord OVER everything. He must be greater than all the gods and icons ever created."/quote] This would include that fact that no graven images were EVER made of the True God because graven images are the result of man's imagination.

---

And god is also the result of man's imagination. Plain and simple.

And yes, I CHOSE not to bother following your link. I am not interested in the theoretical reasons that god 'must' be over everything.

I also don't care what the bible says about god's power. The bible is a story book. It has all sorts of interesting stories. I have a copy that I peruse from time to time. I keep right next to my books on greek mythology, ancient sumerian texts, and the like.

All of those books have fantastic stories of powerful gods too.

You're right WM, I just absent-mindedly excluded the location part and stuck with the prosperity. Because you said that the location holding prosperity produced one kind of God, and the location of desolation and nomadicy produced another, am I correct in this? If so, wouldn't the Jewish God have changed after the Jews changed locations? They went from the land of Israel, to Egytp, to the desert, back to Israel. After they settled in a different land, wouldn't their God have changed then? Why did it wait a few thousand years to come up with a "different God" as you think Jesus is?

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

You are correct in part.

I did say that the creation of the gods was heavily influenced by the prosperity of the land in which a group was settled.

As for the nomadic statement. I can not make any claims about that, I am sure there are studies of that, but I have not read them.

Also, I did not say anything about what would happen to traditions when a culture is transplanted. This is very linked to the nomadic issue, and like I said, I have not studied this. If you are interested in it, I am sure with a trip to your local library, or some heavy googling you could come up with some research on this.

I might have some theories, but they are not backed up by data. Think on the following.

If I take a bucket of water from an ocean, and then transplant it inland does it instantaneously evaporate leaving only salt?

Dan @ Code Town

Good point. But does that puddle of water stay as a puddle for thousands of years, then instananeously evaporate?

I am vaguely interested in the study of world religions, but I think I have my plate full researching the history of my own beliefs right now. Maybe when I have that history straightened out, then I will be able to move on to others.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

quote:

---

If I take a bucket of water from an ocean, and then transplant it inland does it instantaneously evaporate leaving only salt? - WarMage

---

quote:

---

But does that puddle of water stay as a puddle for thousands of years, then instananeously evaporate? - Gideon

---

Gid, now take the conclusion further, and complete the thought - and I think you will begin to realize what WM meant.

What conclusion? I thought it was a question.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

I am not here to think for you. At some point you have to get into the drivers seat and just go with it.

Many of the religions I mention are directly related to the history of your religion. The Jews did not evolve in a bubble. They constantly were in contact with other cultures that had a wide array of beliefs. If you limit yourself to only the doctrine of your religion you are missing the bigger picture. The role your religion played on the world, and the role the world played on your religion. This is the entire argument that you might keep seeing about historical context. It is a very important issue.

Dan @ Code Town

Ahh.....context. *there* ya go.

Recite that word to yourself throughout the day, Gideon.

perhaps it will sink in eventually...

In reply to my posting the following..."What kind of God would try and confuse the language of the humans for fear of them becoming God's themselves?"

quote:

---

JFritzyB - (Earlier in the Bible, God had commanded those "humans" to spread out and not stay in one place. "Replenish the EARTH and subdue it." That doesn't sound like, "Stay in one place and multiply." So, since these people disobeyed God's law to them, He had to punish them for disobeying Him.)

---

This is not what it says. That is your and perhaps other Christians interpretation, or rather explanation of God's behavior, perhaps so it can be easier for you to accept him as a just ruler. But in reality, based on the bible, it says the following...

quote:

---

Genesis 11:5 thru 11.7 -- 5 But the LORD came down to see the city and the tower that the men were building. 6 The LORD said, "If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other."

---

It seems from this, if you read what it actually says and not put some strange theoretical ("God is Great") spin on it, that God is fearful that the humans will achieve great things and he/she/it will not be able to control them.

----| Asylum Quotes

Perhaps, or that they will be resiliant as a whole toward the salvation that God had in store for us, but I see your point. Coming across a race that nothing is impossible for them, is scary, but to the God of the Impossible who has power unfathomable, and might for the most impossible of impossibilities? I doubt it.

This is personally what I think when I read that verse. Take from it what you will. I think that this story is greatly intertwined with the fall of Satan. Satan was cast down for trying to be God and take over His throne. Satan was trying to become the God of the Impossible. That is the reason for his ultimate destruction. I don't mean to sound like I know what God is thinking, but perhaps the reason He confounded our languages is so that we would not have to share the same fate as Satan?

Cool bouncy ball BTW...

Context...context...context...context...context...
Context...context...context...context...context...
Context...context...context...context...context...


I understand what you are saying WM, but I really want to start with the most important person in my faith, Jesus. After that, then we'll see.

WS, I am not making conclusions, but making an argument with a question. I thought that you, with your experience and knowledge, would be able to pick up on that easily.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

quote:

---

WS, I am not making conclusions, but making an argument with a question. I thought that you, with your experience and knowledge, would be able to pick up on that easily.

---

Child, I know that you were making an argument with a question. That is a pretty "lame" tactic - take a major point from someone and turn it around into a question, to avoid following the point and where it leads (It is lame, because it is often used to make one look more "knowledgable" without actually being so).

That is why I posted what I posted - WM was making a good point. I was wondering if you were going to follow it, or not. Or even capable of doing so.

*Shrugs*

I've already given up on you...apparently, WM still hasn't. Not yet, anyway...

quote:

---

Gideon - the God of the Impossible.

---

I like that. And also the idea of God trying to prevent humans from becoming like Satan. Interesting idea.

Old man, I was answering an argument made with a question with an argument made with a question...
BTW, I know what WM meant, thus my question for him. If he wants me to look like a fool and explain everything then fine, but I was hoping that he could understand what I meant, and ponder it for a moment...
Apperently I overestimated his knowledge of religious history...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

Or... you overestimate your own, even though you claim to not have studied this at all.

You question

quote:

---

But does that puddle of water stay as a puddle for thousands of years, then instananeously evaporate?

---

And the answer is pretty clear. You don't even have to do much thinking here. No, it does not stay as a puddle for thousdands of years and then just instantaneously evaporate.

A puddle if it stays in the same place for a thousands of years would need some catalyst to make it change. You have your Jesus, who clearly for all of the historical importance that is current placed on him could easily have been this catalyst. I personally believe the the Jewish religious leaders, the Pharisees, put the pot on the stove, I do believe Jesus did light the fire.

But you must also realize that even these changes took a whole lot of time. We are not talking thousands of years, but we are talking hundreds. Jesus did have his supporters from day one, but it was not until around 400 A.D. that is really started taking off. This is after Constantine smushed all of these christian-like beliefs together. And mostt of what you see now can be attributed to the influence the Catholic Church has had over the centuries.

Dan @ Code Town

^What a waste of time...

He is obviously not interested, WM...

quote:

---

Apperently I overestimated his knowledge of religious history...

---

Hehe...

Now I see what the whole deal is about arguments with Gideon. lol

Otherwise - interesting debate (from a non-deist's perspective) and informative.

==Why is it when we talk to God, it's called praying
- but when God talks to us, it's called paranoid schizophrenia?!==

Ah, if I may...from my view there is neither argument, conversation nor discourse with our poor gid. (hmm, in british slang they might say 'git').

From my point of view, he has one foot...toe very intermittently touching reality. The other is waving in a parrallel universe even he is unaware of.

"All religions are equally sublime to the ignorant, useful to the politician, and ridiculous to the philosopher." -- Lucretius, Roman Poet (94 - 55 BCE)

Thanks guys.
Actually E-man, I have both feet planted firmly on the ground, but my hands are raised very much toward Heaven.
BTW, have you researched Lucretius, or did you just like his quote?

Well, WM, I will admit that I have not studied other religions very much, except Roman and Greek mythology, but I have done much reading on Jewish history. I am no expert, but if there is any religion that I have the most knowledge in, it would have to be Jewish & Christianity.

My point was that the same religion stayed, nearly unchanged, with the Jews since the time of Moses. (Granted they worshiped gods like Baal from time to time, but whenever they turned back to God, it was the same God and religion). You must know that that religion drastically changed with the coming of Christ. It was not a gradual one before, because they were still practicing the same things when Jesus came. He even confused those who knew He was coming, He was so different.

The Jewish religion was the puddle that stayed the same (although not entirely faithful) for thousands of years. Then, suddenly Jesus came and it changed drastically. It was no longer about the blood of animals, but that of Jesus. It was no longer condemnation, but salvation. It was no longer hoping and praying for the chance that the Holy Spirit would stay on you for a few moments, but that He stays with you forever. The puddle evaporated in a few years.

All but one of the disciples died a martyer's death. The church grew exponentially after the day of Pentecost. Then men were drastically changed, and they now could do miraculous wonders. Christians were persecuted wherever they went, but instead of being stamped out, they flourished. One of the greek philosophers of the day defended Paul saying, "If the religion dies, then it is no different than the other posers that came before. But, if it goes on, then it is truly of God." (paraphrased). It truly was of God.

Those things and more make me believe that the truly amazing growth of the Church was during the times of persecution especially during the first few hundred years.

One thing about Constantine, I will have to disagree that that is when Christianity started booming. I believe that is when Christianity started to commit adultry with the state. My personal belief is that Religion and state should be seperate, because Constantine and many others, added things to Christianity that were pagan, to make compromises. Those should not have happened.

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

^Total bullshit.

You need to study your Jewish history better, or you need to learn to communicate better when you post.

Jewish Religion didn't get changed by the coming of Jesus, you twit! The Jews still believe what they have believed since the Days of Moses, and still follow the Talmud. They don't consider Jesus the Savior, or even a Messiah. And they are right, according to the information that they have from their God.

Jesus never fulfilled the Prophecies.

Not that you will understand this.

by the end of the first century, the bulk of christians were not of jewish origin, but pagan.

it started as yet another jewish sect (yes, there were many jewish sects), and immediately did two things -

1) splintered into many of its own sects

2) the bulk of the sects spurned the bulk of jewish tradition

Small groups embraced very strongly the old jewish traditions, but most held on to only some baisc concepts which they felt free to alter in light of their new liberal views.

The puddle most certainly did not dry up, and I am sure that the billions of jews that have lived since the time of christ would take exception to your characterization. What did happen around the time of christ is that the various forms of Judaism were paired down to one - rabbinacal judaism is what we know today as judaism, but was itself only one group of many before the 1st century.

And I may be wrong, but I believe the Talmud was actually being compiled around that time as well.

Main point being that Judaism was not a single constant all through history, and Judaism did not turn into christianity.

{{on another note...

This is priceless:

quote:

---

He even confused those who knew He was coming, He was so different.

---

In other words, he wasn't the messiah of Jewish prophecy at all =)

heh...

(Edited by DL-44 on 05-24-2005 01:26)

I was at a Jewish passover feast the other day, and this feast was a very surface re-enactment of what a real orthodox feast would be like. It was very much the blood of beasts, there we no slaughtering of animals, but the symbolism goes far beyond the simple ideal of the body and blood that Christians celebrate. The ritualism is still very strong. It has endured all of this time. It has not drastically changed by any stretch. I believe it is far more the same than anything you will find in the Christian faiths, and the Christians have been around for a far shorter time than the jews.

I have to say that the way these talks are actually getting down the the real history is great. There is a whole lot of history that I am sure we have all gotten different pieces of, I like to see them all coming together. A little extra research here and there and we have cataloged a pretty power piece of history right here.

On to Gideon. I have to say you are getting better slowly. What is beginning to show now is a bit less of the rhetoric and a bit more of you basic beliefs, which is a start. You are still pretty raw, and you are still a babe*1 when it comes to your understanding of all that is going on with your thoughts.

You are obviously happy with your chosen path, which is fine, but we do not need you to re-affirm your faith to us. If you are set with it, be set in stone. You do not need to tell us, what you should be doing now is to work on building up your base with some real facts. All of what you are saying seems to be coming from the same source, and you seem to be ignoring the truths, and replacing them with your manufactured 'facts' which are close replicas of the truths you will find but come shallowly false upon real inspection. I can understand this. I have done this myself. When you are new into a field of study it is often very easy to make and act upon assumptions, but often those assumptions turn out to be incorrect. It takes time to get past this phase.

What I worry about for you is that you are going to latch on to some of these false assumptions because you are having discourses with those who are obviously your ideological rivals. Although this is the case, do not fall into a pattern of defense, be aware that we are all fleshing out different ideas here and if you become stuck in the defensive posture you might not come aware learning new things, but you will come away taking some false assumptions as personal truths.

Just want to say again, your faith is not in peril, and you should not feel that it is, no matter what someone else might say to you. Your basic ideals, and your love of your god are just as valid as anyone else's ideals on that which is beyond our understanding. But that faith can not drive you to ignore real facts of life and living, if you allow that to happen you will just be allowing yourself to be corrupted by those who wish to abuse your gullibility. I do not think you are gullible, but don't prove me wrong.

*1 : don't take 'babe' as an insult I couldn't think up a better descriptive word, I am trying to get at is your freshness/newness with your ideals. (I have to see if I can get the superscript notation added to the UBB codes).

Dan @ Code Town

(Edited by WarMage on 05-24-2005 05:23)

Thanks for that Dan. I see that you are one of the few people here not out to win an argument, but to learn, grow, and help others as well. Thank you.

I am a seeker of Truth. That led me to Jesus. When you find something true, do you want to figure out all the angles of that truth, to make sure it is correct? Absolutely. You don't want to follow something that isn't true. I am trying to approach Jesus from as many different angles and sources as I can to make sure this truth I found is true. I have found a beginning to a vein here in spiritual truths, and the more I follow it, the more I find explained and rationalized.

How much search qualifies as searched? I don't think there really is enough. There is always another corner, always another shoot off the main vein that can be followed. When do you accept what you know as true, and branch off to different shoots of intrest? When is a platform of beliefs formed?

Actually, you have nothing to fear from me falling into the path of "blind-faith." I tried that once and it didn't work out. These discussions have actually led me to question what I believe in, and research many different areas at once. I have done recent research into Darwinism, Catholicism, Dan Brownism, and some others that are outside my current sphere of faith.

I have discovered some startling revelations, but I can't help but realize that these past couple years in my new faith, things fall into place. It could be coincidence, but if it isn't, then I might have found some truth latching onto with my entire life.

BTW, I really don't mind being called a "babe" in that context. Outside of that context, watch yourself...

"You must unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

I am very wary of truth and those who seek it.

When you accept a truth you also except that everything contrary is false. This is something that is very dangerous.

Dan @ Code Town