Topic awaiting preservation: Is abhortion wrong(morally) or not? When used for 'unwanted pregnancy' predicaments. (Page 4 of 5)

Conveniently superficial or or just plain ignorant. My mistake.

Your arrogance is unfathomable, Etheist. And you seem to have trouble differenciating between individual people and large collectives or society as a whole.

Anyway, we each owe a death and it will most certainly show who was right, no? About God, I mean. Though, if you are right, nobody will exist to give a damn.

Let's prosecute our unborn for crimes they might never commit, find them guilty (by/of inconvenience) and sentence them to death, right?

Quite a point of view, White Hawk, I must say. All democratic and fair like. And experimenting ob human embryos is not THE ONLY WAY TO CURE CANCER.

Because of people like you and Etheist there will, some day, be organ factories that breed human lifestock (clones) for spare parts. You know, things that can't be grown individually or need the oversight of a functioning brain to develop properly. Things like hearts, lungs, etc. It is one thing to grow a bloody year to paste on the back of a mouse and quite another to grow these...

(Edited by sonyafterdark on 06-08-2005 10:15)

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Conveniently superficial or or just plain ignorant. My mistake.

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I accept your apology and applaud your self analysis.

No, you will not know when you die, nor will I for there is no knowing oblivion.

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Let's prosecute our unborn for crimes they might never commit, find them guilty (by/of inconvenience) and sentence them to death, right?

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Boy, what typical contentious clap-trap. But have it your way, be you superficial or just plain ignorant. I vote for the latter my-self.

I sincerely hope you are right in that we will soon have organ banks growing needed replacements.

It will slow or end the current heinous practice of harvesting same from living donors, be they willing or not, popular in some of the more populous and less caring parts of this earth.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Seems, WS, we ain't getting answers to that question. Yours is, of course, correct.

Another case of the individual's choice.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

(Edited by Diogenes on 06-09-2005 19:32)

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Quite a point of view, White Hawk, I must say. All democratic and fair like. And experimenting ob human embryos is not THE ONLY WAY TO CURE CANCER.

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Eh?!? *looks back over his previous posts*
I think you should try reading t-h-e w-o-r-d-s I write, rather than the ones you obviously see. As for curing cancer, I think, currently, that there IS NO WAY TO CURE CANCER yet, so that was a pointless statement.

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Because of people like you and Etheist there will, some day, be organ factories that breed human lifestock (clones) for spare parts. You know, things that can't be grown individually or need the oversight of a functioning brain to develop properly. Things like hearts, lungs, etc. It is one thing to grow a bloody year to paste on the back of a mouse and quite another to grow these...

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Exciting times!

I was deliberately taking a back seat for the last week or so - but I've realised that without considerable and significant input, my previous arguments and statements are simply being twisted out of any resemblance to my meaning.

I'll be back...

Unfortunately and very sadly, the smellfungi and mumpisimi of the religious world are far more dedicated to not seeing their cherished myths defenestrated than they are to seeing peoples lives saved or extended by medical advances.

One thinks immediately of organ's being able to be grown and of course stem cells, which hold such promise for people paralyzed due to nerve damage.

The latter being a more immediate possibility than the formers of course.

Fundamenatlist zealotism is a very sorry aspect of human existance.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Rats with broken spines have regained use of legs after stem cell implants. Something like 90% use of limbs or something.

Almost a decade ago, a scientist managed to grow tadpoles without heads.

As far as I know, frozen cell, embryonic or otherwise, are not viable. That is, too much damage to be alive again. Once cells are frozen, they are dead due to ice crystals. They get freezer burn or whatever you want to call it.

Sony:

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Let's prosecute our unborn for crimes they might never commit, find them guilty (by/of inconvenience) and sentence them to death, right?

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Sony, I don't know if you are Christian or not. If you are, I find it odd that you would say something like that considering Original Sin and other similiar things in the Holy Bible. The whole idea of 'the sins of the father being visited apon the child' is rather odd in general. But I don't know if you are Christian or not.

I think that was actually his answer to a question I posed earlier; taking into consideration the dichotomy of 'pro-life' supporters taking life in protest (terrorism) - by bombing abortion clinics and generally (often violently) persecuting women and doctors, and women, and young women, and pregnant women, and doctors... and did I metion violence against women?

I was thinking that they could rid themselves of these evil, awful, godless heathens (who don't deserve to live) by aborting them in the first place. If it were actually possible to know before the fact that a cluster of cells might develop into a being that aborts clusters of cells that might grow to become people who don't abort clusters of cells that might grow to become people... (deep breath) ...then perhaps they could simply abort that cluster of cells, so saving a hell of a lot of clusters of cells that deserve to live... or something.

But I digress. The point is that SAD was responding with (I think) sarcasm - while also completely misreading my meaning (which was none-too-clear, TBH) and throwing in something against something else that I have no recollection of expressing, but which does bring to the table a whole new area of debate - which nonetheless has little to do with (though possibly tenuously related) the subject of the thread.

So, stem cells.....

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think that was actually his answer to a question I posed earlier; taking into consideration the dichotomy of 'pro-life' supporters taking life in protest (terrorism) - by bombing abortion clinics and generally (often violently) persecuting women and doctors, and women, and young women, and pregnant women, and doctors... and did I metion violence against women

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I think that when you really think about this, its the person in the womb who cannot defend itself, speak or cry out to stop its persecution. At least the mothers, doctors, etc have a chance to run and hide. Where can the infant go? Its trapped in the mother's womb.

A plea from the unborn:

I have been condemned to death because there is a law tht helps my parents. On the basis of that law my parents and their doctors believe they are allowed to kill me. They wash their hands in innocence as if they could wash off guilt with water and disregard a divine law. They sentence me to physical death. My only guilt is that I am unwanted, as if I chose to force myself on my parents. The truth is that they are the ones who gave me life. The do not want to take on my burden on themselves. I am much weaker than my parents. I can't even stand up yet. I cannot defend myself either. Hitting me isn't enough. They have to destroy me. Only then can they be satisfied. I'd rather be hit, or beaten than destroyed. But only when they have totally destroyed me are they satisfied. I have no mother who cries over me or protects me. Can a mother forget her child? Such a thing would go against human feeling. In reality, I am destroyed, but can I be forgotten? I still am blind and cannot see yet in my mother's womb. I cannot gaze upon my mother with my eyes to give her a pleading look so that she can help me. There are so many good selfless women who want children and can take care of me if mine doesn't want me. No tears will be shed for me. To be sure, when my mother first knew of me, she cried out of rage, because she didn't want me. My death will cause her no pain at all. They will give her an anesthetic so she doesn't feel pain when I will be put to death. But I will feel great physical pain and hurt. They don't have to hit me with clubs. They will consider me as worthless. Their only concern is to get me out of the way, because otherwise I could give my parents concern and worry. Shame played no role when I began to exist. But now that I want to be born, they are ashamed of me. For my death they need no cross or no nails. A conscienceless person will be my executioner. I will be cut into little pieces and their only concern is that I cause my mother an infection. I want a chance to make something of my life. Please let me live. I promise not to ask much. I will be a good child. Praying is the only action I can perform, so therefore I do it not stop. I ask the Lord God to forgive my mother and father and the doctor who want my death. I ask to forgive them, for they know not what they do. My only regret is that I will never experience a mother's love. After my death, I will not be buried with dignity because my final resting place will be a trash can. Will I be forgotten forever? No. After judgement day, my soul will live on and on and will be united with my body for all eternity. I and the many millions of innocent unborn children of God who had to undergo a terrible death on earth love our mother and father. Even though they didn't want to love us. I pray for them and that God shows them mercy for destroying me.

The unborn, being such, can make no pleas. This is simply a desperate attempt by the narrow-minded to justify their ignorance.


White Hawk: Huh? You write speeches for Dumbya?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

The religion seem to like jumping to use fiction to defend their view points. They started by using the fiction of their holy book, and now they are creating their own fiction to defend their positions.

Fiction has no place in real world debates.

Dan @ Code Town

(Edited by WarMage on 06-12-2005 16:45)

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A plea from the unborn:

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And that's the kind of horseshit that gets you nowhere Jade. I'm sure it is nice to imagine that you can speak for a fetus in such a way. Unfortunately reality gets in the way...

And I'd like to know what chance you think it is that a doctor at a clinic has to run and hide from a sniper or a bomber?

The issue of abortion aside, the fact that you find a way to justify such behavior is appalling.

You are a hypocrite of the highest order jade. You constantly feign to hold the high moral ground, and yet constantly excuse immoral behavior.

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At least the mothers, doctors, etc have a chance to run and hide.

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...and by saying exactly that, you have proved the point I was making. I'm glad that making pregnant women and medical staff run and hide is considered a laudable goal in pursuit of your agenda. Really, I am.

I stopped paying attention to Jade ages ago with a post about full-term baby corpses. I'd urge you, Jade, if you ever see this for real, to go to the authorities. In my country the limit is 24 weeks (a majority are performed within 20) and regardless of arguments about how appropriate this limit, it cannot possibly be argued that this period be called 'full-term'.

Everything you've posted so far, Jade, has been emotionally-motivated nonsense with no real foundation in rationality or fact. It makes no substantial contribution to the argument and serves simply to annoy me.

I still hold that where there is nothing more than a rudimentary brain stem, there is no 'life' to spare. I say, therefore, that the whole debate hinges on determination of the point at which sentience begins, and of self-perpetuating life.

If you don't draw that line, you might as well be calling male masturbation murder for all the potential lives lost, or women murderesses for the lives monthly unfertilised.

I don't feel obligated by emotionally blackmailing theoretical fiction/fantasy like that - it looks like you should have used the phrase 'fluffy-wuffy' somewhere in the story.

I don't think I will bother going on. You win. Whatever you want. I'm going to go find a debate on hyperspace physics. At least with that, you expect fictional references.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz....

Whoa, where ya been? Masturbation is also against the religious rules...for both genders.

Remember...bad eyesight and hair on the palms?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

*Shaves palms, puts on glasses*

What?!

hehe

Pass the Nair and hand me my white cane.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

ROFL

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-13-2005 14:54)

I think callouses are a real issue - there should be a wanker's hand cream or something. :P

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

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Everything you've posted so far, Jade, has been emotionally-motivated nonsense with no real foundation in rationality or fact. It makes no substantial contribution to the argument and serves simply to annoy me.

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At least I get some kind of emotion out of you. Yes. Abortion stirs up my emotions. How can it not. Its a reality and not fiction that babies are murdered in the womb in the thousands yearly and put in trash cans. Its easier for most to turn the other way and not look at whats true. Lifeless babies in trash cans is a reality. Is it too much for you to bear to look at? I wonder why. I am surprised you think that my view has no foundation. Look again.

http://www.abortedfet.us/cards/cards/fetus5.jpg

(Edited by jade on 06-13-2005 15:04)

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Its a reality and not fiction that babies are murdered in the womb in the thousands yearly...

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As I have stated, I don't consider a cluster of cells life - or I'd be sparing my dandruff from genocide by avoiding medicated shampoo. Therefore, it isn't a fact unless you've decided where that line (you rremember the one I mentioned earlier) is.

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...and put in trash cans.

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Yeah, I'm sure they just dump the remains in the nearest bin in order to stimulate your righteous horror.

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Its easier for most to turn the other way and not look at whats true.

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...by, perhaps, ignoring any arguments previously posted and perpetuating a fictional view of the reality of this debate, you mean?

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Lifeless babies in trash cans is a reality.

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Not in my country it isn't.

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Is it too much for you to bear to look at? I wonder why. I am surprised you think that my view has no foundation. Look again.

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What an intriguing picture! Circa 1960-70s US propoganda shot, I'd be willing to bet?

I don't know why I should pay attention to your arguments now, when you've completely missed everything that has been said on both sides of this debate...

Amazing picture. One could hardly believe they had the ability to manipulate images so well way back then.

That is so patently contrived.

Give up WH, there is no arguing with a zealot and and a fundamentalist zealot is even less open to reality.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Propaganda? Well, next time your near or around an abortion clinic, ask to see were they put the babies remains or just ask. Maybe you will believe them. And if you do see for your own eyes, I hope it can spur or spark some kind of sympathy for the unborn babies.

Despite myself, I'm really starting to like you, Jade. I'm starting to worry about upsetting you.

Doesn't mean that I can agree with you.

Once again - in my country, legally performed abortions do not produce anything quite so substantial (though the 24-week period is debated constantly). You might be likely to see the first vestiges of limbs, spine, organs (just like when you crack an egg to find it has begun to develop). Revolting perhaps, but still a hell of a long way from what you are suggesting.

I don't know what the laws are like in your country, but if what you have suggested (and posted a picture of) happens somewhere near you, then even a pro-choicer would share your disgust.

Perhaps you would be better served to campaign about the existing time constraints in legal abortion. It might seem a compromise, but at least you might be happier to see nothing more than a penny-sized lump being aborted?

Perhaps you might suggest an alternative to abortion - like preventative measures - but as pointed out previously, as well as masturbation, contraception is frowned upon by, for instance, the Catholic faith. Could well be part of the reason why some deeply impoverished countries are so badly overpopulated.

What do you suggest?

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-13-2005 21:59)

white hawk, yes, i am a female. The only true thought i have on this subject is that the chances you have of finding one of the truly wise, one with answers, are as slim as each line of your hair, or is it your head? =)

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babies are murdered in the womb in the thousands yearly

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Millions not thousands.

While the picture you posted may be real, it is not the norm and fairly old. Advocates here claim that most abortions are performed before 20 weeks. That would be majority first and second trimaster. Not that I think these are any better, but are a more accurate depiction of the majority of slaughter. These are not fake.

1st trimester photos
22 weeks

Ramasax

Upset? Why?

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I don't know what the laws are like in your country, but if what you have suggested (and posted a picture of) happens somewhere near you, then even a pro-choicer would share your disgust.

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These are true pictures and doctors still perform abortions today with the human babies looking just like these on the picture. If you believe that they don't kill beyond the required semester, then you are living in darkness. Just click on any websites regarding abortion pictures and you will see they indeed have eyes, ears, 10 fingers and toes, lips and most of all formed hearts. They are already sucking their thumbs. Abortion does stop a beating heart. The aborted fetuses on pictures are not doctored be gruesome. They are gruesome acts perfomed on innocent helpless victims.

So, you ask, whats the alternative? Well even if there was no alternative, it would not justify killing a human person in the womb in the most violent way to satisfy.. This society we live in is kinder to cats and dogs and their welfare than it is to a tiny human in the making.

So campaign for a change in the time limit.

What about spontaneous abortions? Did your god judge this mass of multiplying cells to be unworthy and thus end it's quest for life?

Or, perhaps the mother blasphemed and po'd your god so he decided to punish her by killing her unborn and denying her the joys of motherhood?

If this latter could be counted upon, third world women would be wise to take up cussing as a form of contraception.

The lovely pictures may be of human foetuses and may not be as many mamallian young look similiar in the early stages. In any event, so what? They were not yet viable.

As for the 22 week old, what is not revealed is the purpose of it being out of the womb. Was the foetus in difficulty and they tried an early c-section? Was it needed to save the mother's life? Were there other valid reasons for removing it?

Did the procedure take place in North America?

The picture tell us nothing and offers no support for the religious side.

I have a feeling though, they get a kick out of posting such things.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

The foetus of a kangaroo is born at only two weeks after conception, and yet makes a several inch crawl into the mother's pouch where it continues to live and grow for the next two years. That small foetus is not viable, but is born nevertheless. So, at what point would you say that kangaroo foetus is alive? And if that is true of an animal, could it also be true of a human? Could it be that we actually owe something to a creature that we have given life to, viable or not? At what point should that human foetus be the concern of us all??

Certainly foetuses are capable of physical sensation, such as pain. Any woman who was ever pregnant knows how readily it moves when in discomfort, especially if you do something such as tap that little foot that is jabbing you in the ribs. So . . . how can abortion possibly be humane, especially when considering such things as d & cs, or partial-birth abortions? Not only are these inhumane, they are barbaric. If you did these to an animal, you'd be arrested.

I am a bleeding-heart liberal, and not a Christian. But violence seems to me to be inexcusable against any form of life, unless a person is in immediate danger of being seriously injured or killed. And, I must admit, if a person is stupid enough to put him or herself in immediate danger of such by actively initiating the confrontation, I guess I'd probably root for the creature.

So .. . at what point do we begin to insist that people begin taking responsibility for their actions, instead of just making it go away, with all the respect that we'd give a couple of pounds of rotted hamburger?

Dragonlady

Good point DL...if our females were kangaroo.

There are any number of plants which also react quickly and sometimes violently, if tapped. Do they feel pain or is it just a nerveless reaction? I don't recall reading anything on the nervous system of plants.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/may2000/958574920.Ev.r.html

Live your life as you will DL, just don't believe you have the right to impose your views on those who differ.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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So campaign for a change in the time limit.

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I think that would do about as much good as protesting abortion. No, the change would need to be a cultural change, a society in which people would have less reason to abort. A large portion of abortions are done for financial and/or career purposes, at least in the western world, in which case means you start the fight higher up at the level in which these financial reasons ultimately stem.

For instance, I am inclined to believe that here in the states the creation of a central bank with the FRA of 1913 was a pivotal point in US history that has led to nearly ten decades of constant inflation and ever-increasing debt due to fractional reserve banking system they employ and has influenced everything that has come since, in both foreign and domestic policy. How would it be different if we had kept the a standard, I really can't say, we may not have encountered such explosive growth, but we would be a lot more comfortable down here in the world of middle to lower class citizens because our money would be backed by actual wealth and would not lose value every time we spent it.

This would not cause an entire eradication of what I would call needless abortions, because we all know it will happen regardless, but you know, fry the big fish.

The 'need' to abort is created higher up in the geopolitical food chain and that should be the target.


Ramasax

Perhaps, sometimes I can see humans as being little more than cats and dogs with pretentions to something more holy; prizing their sentience so proudly while driven and swayed by their basic mammalian tendancies.

They really do revel in how special they are, and value their own worth over anything else in all existence. They reward themselves for every little deed, yet live not one moment as fiercely and as meaningfully as even the lowest form of life.

As amazing as humans are, and as incredible their achievements might be, for smart animals they're more destructive and chaotic than a series of random globally-cataclysmic events.

While their populations spurt and explode and they stumble through their insignificant little lives, they're heading inevitably to a dead-end; no food, no resources, no thing but their smoggy, grey, artificial wastelands.

They seem completely aware of this, and yet they plow on regardless. Somehow, they even see fit to fight for the societies that hasten this end - and all the while count hope and mutual compassion as their redemption.

In a certain light, the human race is a parasite of planetary proportions.

...and yet I cannot condemn them. I care more for their lives than I do any creature, despite their flaws and improprieties. I very much doubt that anybody believes this now, but it's true.

Really.

Talk about twisting words...

I meant embryo research is not the only way to find a cure for cancer!!!

How very interesting that a species that developed and practices agriculture and breeds other species for food can be called a 'parasite of planetary proportions'.

Etheist, you protest your cause louder than some women... It really seems like it's your cause to guarantee the freedom of choice.

Do you carry or own a gun? I just want to know whether I've misjudged you or not, even partially.

How convenient to call the entire race parasytic. To be fair, perhaps you'd better think of the IMF as such. Or the United States or the EU, etc. Certainly not all the citizens of the EU or USA, etc. Cartainly not the entire race. Certainly not every individual in part.

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Maybe you will believe them. And if you do see for your own eyes, I hope it can spur or spark some kind of sympathy for the unborn babies.

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I already mentioned this, Jade. Contraception as well. Talk about people not reading (like Etheist, WH) posts. Mine, for example. There is just no reasoning with some people:

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What about spontaneous abortions? Did your god judge this mass of multiplying cells to be unworthy and thus end it's quest for life?

Or, perhaps the mother blasphemed and po'd your god so he decided to punish her by killing her unborn and denying her the joys of motherhood?

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Totally uncalled for. Your reasoning is infantile, I might say. Though I suspect I, myself, am much younger than you.

You have such a deep hatred. For whom and what? For Christians, Christianity, pro-lifers, anyone arguing the sanctity of life, some minister you have unpleasant memories about and associate with God or your bible thumping father and mother?

I think you are seriously disturbed. You certainly merit to be in a real asylum.

If your education (lack of it) renders you unable to see the difference between ovules, sperm and a fertilized egg than, really, your opinion (which is founded in ignorance) is tantamount to nothing.

(Edited by sonyafterdark on 06-16-2005 09:21)

OFF TOPIC:

I still hold that the human race is parasitic, and it shows no sign of evolving into something more harmonious with the planet it resides on. I don't distinguish between nations or races to make that determination - every single human being on this planet exerts their own force. We don't fit this planet, and are anathema to its systems and balances.

You have noted agriculture as an argument against this? I find this laughable. If a tape worm was able to farm growths in your gut, would it no longer be considered a parasite? Agriculture alone is responsible for massive damage to the ecology and environment of this little rock!

I don't see anything convenient in the assumption that this destructive and disharmonious breed is a parasite upon this planet. I was simply suggesting that though I see little reason to regard human life (as a whole) over animal life, I still do - and it actually has little to do with my stance on the morality of abortion at all.

If human life is so sacred and you think that something should be done to protect the innocent, then why not devote more of that angry energy to defending those that are alive and growing in the world? How about the hundreds (thousands?) of children that die every year through neglect, abuse, and poverty? How about the countless children in care or foster homes?

Or does life not have value once it is begun in the outside world?

As for breeding other animals - those that are only sustained by farming would have been more than capable of breeding on their own without the advent of agriculture, and most are hybridised shadows of the original beasts that existed. Selective- and cross-breeding have produced such aberrations of nature that if they had been developed by faster genetic manipulation methods, millions would be protesting in horror!

As for my alleged failure to read your posts or 'see reason', I believe that I have had quite enough - having taken into account the more reasonable fragments of your posts and discarded the gratuitous or insulting content, I am left with little to argue against. I can't possibly answer a question that makes no sense.

As for Embryonic Research, what has that got to do with this debate at all? I don't recall bringing the subject up, nor citing this as an argument for the morality of abortion. I have twisted no words, and I stand by my assertion that the statement was pointless, especially as you have ignored the fact (again) that there is no cure for cancer! The treatments that exist are mostly surgical (even if this involves destuction radiation or chemicals).

In fact, I thought the major advances promised by stem-cell research (presumably extracted from aborted embryos, drawing a tenuous connection to your reference) were in the field of replacement organs and tissues that won't require a lifetime of medication to avoid rejection, or in the regeneration of nervous and neural tissues?

Regardless of the topic of this debate, I would suggest that you avoid throwing petty insults about another's intellect or powers of reason without first thinking through your retort.

I can thank Arthemis for making me realise that I should be spending my time doing something more productive than bandying words here, but I just couldn't let that agricultural reference lie. What do you think was around before we raized it all to the ground for farmland?

Anyway, I have realised that I am not quite so polarised in my view as I previously claimed - but the debate has reached a point where I can't see my contributions doing anything more than muddying the issue further, especially as you have once again abandoned your arguments in favour of insulting those who do not share your view.

I wish you all the best, and do hope that one unshared view will not necessarily discount the possibility of more productive discussions in the future. I also offer my sincere apologies - not for my opinion, but for any percieved impropriety or thoughtlessness on my part.


I'm out of here. *tips fedora*


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

(Edited by White Hawk on 06-16-2005 13:38)

No apologies needed WH, if there was any impropriety or thoughtlessness it was percieved by others not delivered by yourself.

Jade, you are a deluded fool and that is the kindest assessment I can provide of you.

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It really seems like it's your cause to guarantee the freedom of choice.

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This is the only thing you have got right and I can think of no finer goal.

No, don't carry a gun. I live in Canada and so I don't need to.

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Totally uncalled for. Your reasoning is infantile, I might say. Though I suspect I, myself, am much younger than you.

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There is not doubt you are younger and the reasoning is exactly the same sort of approach the mis-named "Pro-lifer's" use in their arguments. IE: posting doctored photo's of alleged aborted foeti. I didn't think you would like having it thrown in your face and I was right.

Though, I am not suprised you failed to recognize the technique.

If you had, in fact read anything I have posted, instead of reacting to the first thing you come across which challenges your reality, you would have seen me post many times that I have no dislike of xianity, merely the fundamentalist zealots like yourself who feel they have the right to impose their ignorant and unimformed views upon others.

My parents I am happy to report were happy, open-minded people so very unlike yourself.

I was not raised to find people of different colour to be inferior or objectionable. I was not raised to find women inherantly inferior as many xian (and other) cults would have us believe.

There is not doubt abject ignorance is displayed on these pages Poor Jade...but not by me.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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There is not doubt abject ignorance is displayed on these pages Poor Jade...but not by me

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I never mean to imply anyone person who post is ignorant. I only view on this thread in regard to abortions as some not being aware of all the facts. The clinics, in general are concealing and not giving full disclosure on the whole process in regard to information, procedures and care. We must face that each person wanting an abortion is a dollar figure. Its like Clinics are trying to sell a service, sort of like a pedicure. As I have posted before, the abortion industry is a money making industry. In the millions. Did you know the hospitals, HMOS sell discarded placentas for research? Now, the aborted remains will be used for research as well, which is very profitable for the abortion clinics. We, the mothers never get asked to donate our placentas and make no profit from the sell, but the hospital does. Indeed the pro-abortion lobbyist make sure to have a strong voice and do having willing ears since it gets help from the insurance industry which wields as much power as the oil industry does here in the US of A. So who is really in charge. For sure, don't think its in the interest of "for the people, by the people" mentality. In the past year though the pro-life voice is getting stronger and now more laws are being implemented for protection of the unborn. I feel I am starting to see pro-life progress. And I can only hope our society will become more kinder to other mankind in the womb as well. The courts ruled 32 years ago that a person is human only when it can breathe on its own outside the womb, at birth. But this ruling has never set well with many in our society, even non-religious. We are living in a time of human genocide comparable to the jewish genocide of long ago.

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We are living in a time of human genocide comparable to the jewish genocide of long ago.

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Preposterous. No, I'll go further - absurd.

That comparison is so off-base, it is no laughing matter.

It is one thing to express opinion. It is quite another, to make wild comparisons that are totally outside the bounds of logic and reason.

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Its like Clinics are trying to sell a service,

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Yes, it is. It's exactly like that.

Becauae that's what they are there for!

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Did you know the hospitals, HMOS sell discarded placentas for research?

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And how is that in any way a problem?

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So who is really in charge. For sure, don't think its in the interest of "for the people, by the people" mentality.

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That I'll agree with. But it applies across the board, and has very little actual bearing on the issue at hand.

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We are living in a time of human genocide comparable to the jewish genocide of long ago.

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It is appalling to make such a comparison.

You need to get a grasp on this fact: ABORTION IS NOTHING NEW.

It has existed for as long as civilization itself.

As has been said several times now, the overall view of abortion in modern america (by all sides) is far more ethical and moral than it has been throughout the history of the world.

Regardless how cavalier you might think so many of these abortions are, there is nowhere that I know where there is not a negative stigma attached to abortion.

I've never known anyone whoe *wanted* to have an abortion, or who did so without deep and serious thought, or who did not spend a great deal of time dealing with the decision.

Bottom line is, the choice must be there.

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I've never known anyone whoe *wanted* to have an abortion, or who did so without deep and serious thought, or who did not spend a great deal of time dealing with the decision

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Oh.... then you are little handicapped in this area as far as first hand knowledge. I know of persons who have aborted and would do it again and again. Then there those who have had one and regretted it. So I know first hand the trauma of abortions. I know of some who have left their faith, because they feel that God would not accept what they did, so they no longer have a relationship with the God they percieved was. They now have developed an new ideology about God. A God who would accept be loving and compassionate of the abortion they chose to have. Deep serious thought?? About who? Themselves or their baby. I can assure you its always about them. THis "I couldn't care for it or we can't afford it" is escapism. Lets see it for what it really is. We live in a very selfish, " I want, & me" attitude today.
For sure, lets not push our ideolgoies & rights on others. Lets start with the unborn. They have rights too.

(Edited by jade on 06-16-2005 18:44)

Is this an admission:

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So I know first hand the trauma of abortions.

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?

The only way one could know 'first-hand' is to have undergone the experience.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)