Topic awaiting preservation: Is abhortion wrong(morally) or not? When used for 'unwanted pregnancy' predicaments. (Page 5 of 5)

You can't know. You were carried to term.

The thread was and is about 'unwanted pregnancy' scenarios.

Cases when there is no medical reason why the pregnancy should not proceed. Cases when abortion is brought about solely by the will of the mother who has the legal right to do so.

MY QUESTION, basically, was whether or not she also has a moral right to do so. Whether or not it is morally right. I am by no means endorsing acts of 'terrorism' against clinics and staff as Etheist and others like to claim. I, personally, do not approve these. I think I've said this before, but no matter.

Nor am I a Bible thumping religious freak, altough I do believe in God, as Etheist likes to label me so that he can more readily and easily dismiss my sound views as mere 'religious clap-trap'. You are an atheist, fine. Does this mean that you have no morals, compassion, no mercy at all?

By declaring that, in your opinion, there is no God are you escused from any and all decency merely because it's what 'Xians' endorse?

Are mercy and compassion obsolete or retrograde? The primitve attributes of 'religious freaks'? Whatever subject is at hand you Etheist always revert to your narrow, stubborn outlook on life.

Everything, to you, somehow means and proves the inexistance of God and the stupidity of 'Xians'. To you everything narrows down to that.

If you were asked what is the ratio between the circumference of a circle and its diameter you would probably answer '2*pi*Radius_there_is_no_God_and_I_am_gay,_not_that_there_is_anything_wrong_with_that'.

Yes, there are(were) many stupid and 'evil' people that call(ed) themselves Christians but it is hardly the same thing.

You believe with your heart, not your brain. You brain may do as it pleases.

It really seems like killing a human being is no more important than having a manicure done...

(Edited by sonyafterdark on 06-17-2005 11:25)

You seem to have a large misconception of Ehtheist.

Let me help you out. He has stated repeatedly that he does not have anything against those who believe in god. What he does have is a bias against those who would push thier beliefs and force their ways on others by claiming moral superiority which is suported by their god. Islamic extremists give islam a bad name, just as Christian extremists give christianity a bad name. That is just the way the cookie crumbles. It is your christian family, if you want your faith to be looked on in a good light stop the problems in your own back yard, and stop excusing them with the excues "but it is not all of us." It just makes you look like weak crybabies. The better response is we have some pretty sick and twisted people in our organization, but we are working on fixing that (and actually work on fixing it).

I believe you also missed the thread where us Atheists spent a lot of time explaining how our moral compasses worked, and it ended with, "The same way your does." Ehtheist took part in this discussion, if you go there you can read about it there. He might not have the same sence of morals and decencies as you do, just as your wife,husband,sister,brother,mother,father has a different sence of morals and decencies. What he is excused from is basing his morals and decencies on something else, he gets to be more honest about where his morals come from.

Ehthiest does show a propensity to talk down upon your choices, rather vociferously, which, given my upbringing and beliefs I would not do. But it is not wrong, it is merely the oposite of what I and I believe others with my views have had to go threw. Those with religion often talk down on those who do not as being wrong. They like to equate us with Satan, they like to call us evil, and they like to tell us our ownly way to be saved is threw their views on god and religion. I think that doing that to someone is pretty fucked up. That is why I wouldn't do what Ehthiest is doing, but I don't think fighting fire with fire, or in his words, being a bigger pisser, is wrong. I have to admit a certain joy in reading his combative words, but still something I would not personally do.

For those topics you seem to be a bit off. You ask most of this in the form of a question but it still seems like a flame born of frustration, no need to be completely frustrated with an individual here, when you look at the internet it is not really people that are floating in cyber space, it is ideas, get angry at ideas.

Away form Ehthiest we now go.

A human being has vast importance. The people I know, and who are in my world view are the most important things that could exist. They are what all of my actions positive and negitive are based on.

Humans as a group carry little import. There are probably 6 billion people in this world that I will never come into contact with, and will never play any direct part of my life. They are not really important. And you can see this view every single day. A person decides to steal form someones else, 28,000 jobs are cut at a company. Genocide is committed. We go to war with another country. We allow people to stave to death, or to helplessly die of aids.

We really do not care about people as a whole. We might care about family and friends, and the world as lip service, but ultimately we say, fuck them, and do our own selfish things, and try to affect as must as we can in our little spheres.

When I say it is someone elses choice to make. I say this because I really don't care about those people, and in that I don't know enough about them to make any kind of decision for them. It is everyones job to make their own decisions, we don't need anyone outside our spheres making them for us.

When we stop causing and letting millions and billions of people die, and everyone who is here now is happy and the world is just, then maybe we can/should look at abortion. But there are too many other moral issues which we gloss over to make this anything worth getting upset over.

I would much rather you put your efforts of protests towards more important endevors like a person on every street corner so that we can make sure that our children can walk to and from school without fearing, kidnap, rape, theft or murder. I see that as the big crime. You spend so much time worrying about those who are not here, that you forget about protecting those who are.

Dan @ Code Town

I see you ignored my question in favour of another rant Jade.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

SAD: You get this part right...

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Cases when abortion is brought about solely by the will of the mother who has the legal right to do so.

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But you fall off the rails on this part.

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MY QUESTION, basically, was whether or not she also has a moral right to do so.

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Whose morals are we talking about here??

I am not at all certain that people who would ban abortion via overturning row v.wade...understand they are talking about 'legislated morals.'

Just say 'legislated morals' 6 or 7 times. Now remove 'abortion' from the debate and think about other areas where we might be able to or have, in the past, tried to 'legislate morals' of others on 'others.'
Women not so very long ago were 'chatal.'

Judging from her posts, Jade may very well be one of the women who both are and consider themselves chattels.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

I tend to rant passionately. I am not sorry though. Mr. Diogenes. But forgive me if I resort to name calling. I regret that. What was the question?

I just feel so passionate about human life issues. I feel we are focusing so over zealously on individual rights issues, that we do greater harm to the future of the unique individual humans rights in our society. The right to live, prosper in life and multiply. The future of the inhabitants of this great blessed planet earth lies in compassion, in treating the human species as sacred unique individual entities who's energies will radiate this earth in their own special way. I have a special care and great interest in wanting to protect and prolong our humankind even in the making. For me, because, herein lies the essence of what we are & why we are here. To care for each other. Man is a social creation. He is what he is in how he relates to other humans. And how he relates to where he comes from. If he is to destroy other creative humans in their most defenseless position, what can be said of humanity as a whole. That it destroys its own. How sad that man disregards or regrets where he is made. Does the human womb have any dignity? Wasn't it created for creation? The womb deserves our TLC because that is the gateway & passage chosen to bring human life into existence. How very special womanhood is. When we see those cars with the sign, "Baby on board" don't we try to take caution to take care to watch out for that vehicle. Pregnant women look so radiant and are so very special. Who doesn't come across a woman who is to give birth and not have a certain warm feeling. Here at work when we have pregnant women, we are so excited, its like we are pregnant too. We relate because we have been there done that and felt what they feel. I, for the most part always spark up a conversation near a pregnant woman. When in the grocery store waiting in line I ask with "when are you due" and converse on and on.
Are at least some of you in agreement that those who believe in abortion have given into the system. Greed, financial gain and worth over human life. We as a society already determined who should live or die because of money. In the end its all about money, which has become a necessary evil to many in this century.

I was reading some science article on how the human heart is more of a complicated structure as comparable to the human brain. And how the heart is primary in its regulating and controlling of the human brain to operate complicated sensory energies to get the physical body to start and sustain itself. So the physical body is dependent on the heart, not the brain. We all know this. But science has not fully discovered the full capabilities in how the human heart controls the mechanics of the human brain in all its chemistry. It still is a growing science. We know it can only be fully studied in its tangibles and intangibles. Because we do know how emotions effect the human heart and trigger all kinds of brain mechanisms in regard to word, action and overall health. In my belief, the heart in its infancy is like a closed tomb or coffin. And only thru its growing experiencing relationship with other human hearts will it understand and start to open. The greater the compassion for other human hearts, the more the tomb will become fully open till the heart finally is no longer a tomb but alive in its fullness. Herein the brain will understand the fullness in which it was meant. to operate. As a human compassionate and loving, which completes him as a person he was designed to come into. And this can only be achieved by the cooperation of other individual human hearts co-existing relating to it. To me this determines the whole essence of a human person. You hear all the time your emotions cloud you brain and you will not make good judgments. Calm down. Think rationally. Where does the rationale come from. Yes. It it comes from the brain, but where was the brain told to think with the rational. Its from the heart who told it to do so. So what I am trying to say and not saying it very well, is always think with the heart first, then the brain and you will make the right decision.

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always think with the heart first, then the brain and you will make the right decision.

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We'd still be sailing around on a flat earth with that thinking.

OK. NoJive how has the important discovery of the earth being round as opposed to being flat made a difference in your life as of today? Has it determined your personallity? How has that knowledge affected you as a person?

I have a great respect for science, because I personally feel science is God and scientist help religion. There are many scientist who are religious christians. Its a shame that there are some who believe since they have tapped into understanding the sciences feel they have tapped into the unknown in their process of experimentation and discoveries and believe they attribute it to themselves only. In their study they are immersed in the creation of God's work but don't see God in it at all. I feel they are studying God. So its good. In their scientific achievements they feel elated and they should. All scientific breakthroughs that are good for humanity are good things because the creator is good.

(Edited by jade on 06-17-2005 19:59)

Jade, I agree with your sentiments in the first paragraph for the most part and understand what you are saying.

The whole part about the heart though. I just don't buy it. The heart is nothing more than a big complex muscle, a pump. The brain is responsible for all thought and feeling and has scientifically been shown to produce different protiens for different types of emotions. These protiens then flow through our bodies and connect with receptors in all our individual cells, hence the feeling of sadness, remorse, happiness, etc. The power of thought is indeed very strong in that with our thoughts alone we can effect our entire body chemistry. The heart is responsible for pumping these specific chemistries throughout our bodies, but it all emanates from the brain.

There is a third element which you left out and I believe to be very important. It crosses over into the realm of the metaphysical and I am sure many in this crowd consider it hogwash, but is known as the spirit or soul and I believe this is where our most vital ingredient comes from, consciousness.

If you think with the metaphorical heart it will oftentimes lead you into trouble. Use your brain first.


Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 06-17-2005 20:27)

Thank you. Ramasax. Your correct. I was thinking in the spiritual regarding the heart. I feel the heart organ in its spiritual capabilites unifies us to realize the greater physical capabilities our bodies were meant for. We may never understand fully the human heart in its sciences. To me to want to understand this science is doing the creators work. Its religious. Its finding God. So in essence, some scientist may not realized to look and find solutions and cures, is looking at the Creator too.

Ram, perhaps you can lend Poor Jade some of your titanium?

Jade, read the prior posts and you shall find the question.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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OK. NoJive how has the important discovery of the earth being round as opposed to being flat made a difference in your life as of today? Has it determined your personallity? How has that knowledge affected you as a person?

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I was going to start with... 'Well where would you like me to start.' but then I realized you were joking...you know, pulling my leg and all that... having me on.

You were joking right?

I think what jade means is that wisdom is more than intelligence in that as an intelligent man(or woman) is one that, through the way genes/nature/God equiped him(or her), is capable of reaching many goals, even difficult or seemingly impossible ones to achieve. A wise man(or woman), however, is, in addition to intelligent, capable of choosing the right goals and the right means to achieve these and knows when to quit or admit fault.

I am not entirely sure of my wisdom...

However, the heart is just a heart. Indispensible as it is to life it has nothing to do with reasoning.

In response to Njive's opinion that we should worry about other things first...

If we want to make the world a better we've got to start somewhere, haven't we?
And abortion is among mankinmd's more heinous atrocities.
Through the defenceless nature of the victims it's perpetrated upon as well as the means.
Not least considering how easy it is to prevent an unwanted pregnancy instead of slaughtering a human being in the making and the fact that in many a women's life it is not singular event. If there is no compassion or pitty for many of the unborn children of mankind, what hope is there at all?

Then again it is so easy to rant, rave and argue about all these problems with society but as long as nobody takes and significant constructive actions it really doesn't matter what anyones says or thinks.

Isn't it "immoral" and "selfish" to force a woman to have an unwanted child, which she is not capable/doesn't want to taking care of?

More emotional claptrap.

Rationalize for me how getting rid of a few hundred cells which are in no way cognizant of existance than stone, is a heinous crime.

Heinous crimes include; the practice of many religious cults which indulge in and condone the trading and treating of young girls as property and marryng them as yong as 10 to men as old as 60 or more who already have several child brides and that is just in North America http://www.polygamyinfo.com/world_news.htm; heinous is churches which hide and protect pedophile clergy; heinous is religious cults which sacrifice or murder children because they are convinced they are possessed (happened in Texas recently)-another xian cult BTW. Heinous includes ritual mutilation of female genitalia in order to make certain they do not enjoy sexual congress-supposed to keep them faithful and yes, it take place in North America.

All of these victims are cognizant of existance and the pain people like you and Jade appear willing to see inflicted upon them .

You don't know heinous from heimlich.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

An interesting article in the June 17 edition of the Vancouver Sun, page 3. This article is about a girl who's life has been saved by stem cell injections.

Now let me see, is there a contradiction here?

The right-wing xian ignorami hold life precious and dear, why one shouldn't even have spontaneous nocturnal emissions becase it is wasting opportunities for life. Women should be ashamed they have a period because another egg is wasted.

But they would have cheerfully denied this child her life because their closed minds cannot see the benefits of such research.

Might just as well have shot her like they do the Doctors who provide choices for women who don't feel the same as the poor benighted xians.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)