Topic awaiting preservation: Genesis Explained/Debated (Page 2 of 5)

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Unfortunately the overall murderous intentions of the people in Rome far out reached those of the western culture today. Abortions were wide spread, people could be murdered for speaking up at the wrong time, or violating certain laws. Capitol punishment was particularly gruesome.

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Are you saying that you don't believe that this same stuff doesn't go on today--or especially in America? But it IS going on here. Has been from day 1 just about. We tried our damndest to wipe out the American Indians, and we whooped and hollered at public hangings. We enslaved a whole race of people based on the color of their skin and faught a war that was partially about wheather that practice was right or wrong. And now here we are, having a war that is said to be for freedom, when we are just shoving our type of government onto another country. And oh yeah, being lied to about the reason for that war to boot. America is no less a bully than any other nation, and Americans are no less cruel than people of other nations at any point in time. And we've done it all in 200 years.

No, we do not give capital punishment lawfully to people for saying the wrong thing, or thinking the wrong way anymore. And the key word is lawfully. Although we did. A man could be killed in the old west for stealing a horse. And a duel to the death was acceptable for any reason the persons agreeing to said duel wanted. A black person could be hanged by a lynch mob just for the color of his skin. And this was all happening way after the Constitution was written. Now you go into an inner city. Doesn't matter if it white, black, mexican, latino, or asian. And you see if people arent killing each other over the theft of a vehicle, the color of their skin, and you see if a lot of this is not ignored by law enforcement. It is. You check and see if the wealthy don't buy their way out of crimes even in the court.

No, we have never in America been any different from the Ancient Romans who went to see Gladiators get killed for sport. We are a new country. And we hide behind the facade of peace and freedom and say we are civilized. And sometimes, we even try really really hard to play that part for others to see and can even sometimes believe it is the truth. We are not really digressing, our facade is just crumbling down and the pretense is slowly being stripped away law by law and right by right.

Now, while I don't believe that people are anymore evil today than they were from the beginning, I do believe there is a growing number of evil (for lack of a better word) people. I guess you could say a shift in the balance? From spirtiual to non spiritual. From respectful to disrespectful. From care to neglect. From the good of the whole to the good of the one. However you choose to look at it. And I do believe that when the balance has shifted too much, the earth will cleanse itself. Weather you call that cleansing an act of nature, an act of man, or an act of God will all depend on your beliefs. But it will happen eventually. And those who survive will start over greatly humbled and renewed in spirit and a sense of "right" not to make the same mistakes. Idealism goes over big after a huge shake-up. Unfortunately, people's seperate ideas of idealism get in the way once the population takes off.

I didn't intend to give you my philosophy in a generic nutshell, but it just kind of flowed in that direction so there it is. The basic jist of it anyway.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

Trouble reading DL?

I suggested they start their own Forum of Foolishness. There are others here who post much more rationally on the same subject (if rationality and religion belong in the same sentence at all). These latter are often worth reading. These two give some credence to the Tower of Bab(b)el myth.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

But you knew who this thread was aimed at. You knew who would be here. You can see form the opening post what the topic is, and how it is oriented.

There's no reason to trouble yourself (and others) the way you do in the post I repsonded to.

Just leave it alone.

~shrug~

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Trouble reading DL?

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Not in the slightest. I see, and saw, exactly what you wrote...

Well DL, my opinion is as valid as anyone's here, more so than some, as good as others and possibly somewhat less meaningful than others.

Nevertheless, as do you, I shall express it.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Sure.

But then, there is a difference between merely expressing your opnion and going out of your way to be an ass.

FWIW.

Oh, it is not out of my way at all. Besides it is also a matter of perception. No?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Jade, thank you for sharing your beliefs about the Creation story. It is refreshing to hear another view point about it. It forces my nogin to start thinking about different angles I have not looked at yet.

I don't really know how loosely you interpret the Creation, but if God had created everything and then let it evolve, then give man the breath of life, there are a few problems that I see with it.
1.) When did this breath of life enter into the human history? If He did give it to use, could He have given the same kind of spirit to other species? Can He do it now? If He only gave the breath to some, then they sinned, then is it possible that there are people who did not descend from Adam, and thus have not had original sin? Thus meaning that they do not need the salvation of JC?
2.) When God looked back on Creation and said it was "good," what about death? In a literal translation of the Creation story, death doesn't factor into the equation until after man sins. If it is a figurative story, then could God view death as "good?" If so could their be a death after Jesus comes back?
3.) If Creation is a story or a metaphor, what keeps Revelation from being a story or metaphor?

Those are just a few questions that come to mind if Creation is taken figuratively. I don't excpet you to answer them, because that could take way too long , but I would like you to just ponder those for a moment. If the literallity of the Creation story is questioned, then that opens the door for other literal aspects of the Bible to be questioned...

Bell, I don't think that the US is quite yet to the wide spread rampant perversion experienced in the Roman Empire, yet. I believe that one baby aborted is horrifying. But I have to say that Romans knew how to commit evil. Read some Roman history, Paul Maier is a good start, and then tell me that America is worse. America is terrible now, but she can still go a lot further. As soon as President Bush starts a mass orgie/rape cruise like Nero did, then I will concede, but even look at other countries. We are still better than some, but I will say that if America lasts much longer, then she has a definite potential of becoming as bad as communist Russia/China, or even the Roman Empire.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

Gideon--Yeah, I guess we really aren't as rampant as the Romans were. I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are just as capable of becoming that rampant and are on the way to becoming that rampant. The "facade" that I spoke of is all that has kept us from becoming that rampant, and that the "facade" is now slowly coming down.

And this is where people who are not religious are free to tune out--or not. You don't have to believe in God to see the patterns of history.

This brings me to Revelations. Take a good long hard look at our Government. And the way our government started out, and how it is changing. And WHY it is changing. And how--and I thank Ramasax for this bit of my thinking, because I did not realize that democracy and republic weren't the same until he pointed it out--our forefathers were idealistic and did not want to repeat the mistakes of the past--but yet here we are 200 years later well on our way to acting just like those ancient empires. We have spread out as far as we can on our own turf, now we are forcing our "democracy" on other parts of the world, no different from what Communists tried to do to a point, even worse I think than the communists did. And we are saying that we are advocating freedom and peace--and therefore have a better chance of other people wanting a democracy, where a lot of nations resisted communism. Also, there is the factor that most other nations are "simulating" the west. They envy our culture and "freedom" and look at us in awe or in hate. Some countries follow our lead by their own choice, some like Iraq don't. We speak like a lamb and act like the dragon. We spew "peace and freedom" out of our mouths while we basically rape other countries that don't believe like we do. I don't think it will end with Iraq.

So open your eyes Gideon, your last paragragh IS getting started.

I am not going to start saying that Bush is the Antichrist, or "Repent for the end in at hand"--because I don't really have any idea that that is what is going on. But I would be lying if I said that I didn't feel deep down in my heart and bones that everything is coming to some kind of head. There is no more room in the world for us to spread out in anymore. Government has been established on every inhabitable piece of land in the world--America being the last great government that has sprung up. True, we stole the land from the Indians, but they did not have an established Governmental institute. The only choice now is for Governments to try and overtake other Governments. And America seems to be leading that race. I don't know. I'm not trying to be a "doomsayer" at all. It may take a long long time still for things to get to that point, but I am saying that history repeats itself, and we've gotten to a point where the whole world is getting out of balance, not just one area of the world.

So, take what you will from all that. But it sounds a lot like what is written in Revelations to me. The book could just as well be called "Revolutions", because it reads just like a revolution, only on a global scale rather than a national scale. It's scary, I try not to dwell on it too much.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

(Edited by Belladonna on 07-16-2005 03:24)

[side note: a little pet peeve of mine - it is "The Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ" it is not plural. Just a pet peeve.]

Yeah, I have been sensing something like that too. Like all around me things are starting to crumble. Our "great country" is bullying other countries. America is starting to get more and more away from God, and towards secularism. The occult is also rearing its ugly head more and more. Nations are grumbling with each other, suicide bombers are striking everywhere (and now Britan has had a few big hits). I truly think that something big is going to happen. Is it Jesus coming back? It really looks like the end times He described.

Although, this could just be a little tremor. I personally think that human kind can do a good job of wiping ourselves out. That may be what I am feeling.

But whatever it is, it is coming, closer and closer...

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

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I personally think that human kind can do a good job of wiping ourselves out

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That's the truth. Men have been wiping men out since the beginning of humans, there's no reason to think that's going to stop any time soon.

And on a side note, I didn't mean to come across that I hate my country, in case I sounded that way. I don't. I just am not very pleased with the way we've been acting as a country.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

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It really looks like the end times He described.

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Oh come on man...

life has *always* resembled the 'end times'.

In fact, according to Jesus and all the early christians, *that* was in fact the 'end times'. It was preached unilaterally that men must prepare *now* because the end is coming *now*. Not metaphorically, as in one must always be ready.

The whole reason the 'end times' bullshit has managed to stay relevent to people is because every time period feels like it.

Man has been wiping man out since the beginning, with or without your savior.
And of course, don't forget that the 'occult' predates your religion...

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And on a side note, I didn't mean to come across that I hate my country, in case I sounded that way.

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It would only come across that way to someone who confuses country with government. Many fail to make that distinction in todays charged climate. You can be the most anti-state person in the world and still sincerely love your nation.

Thomas Paine, I think, could have been some other dead guy, once wrote, "Love you country, fear your government," and that is some advice we should all take to the bank.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

The religious mad have been carrying the "The End Is Near signs since time immemorial.

The most recent example of this mindless stupidity came at new years 2000.

The "New Millenium" was to be the end prophsised by the bible and Nostradamus...who was clearly a chalatan.

Of course, anyone who can count to ten would have known 2000 was the end of the last decade/century and 2001, the start of the new century...BTW in case it escaped the notice of any...2001 was not the end either.

More obvious to all but the religious, the year is more like something, something billion...the dating from the alleged birth of some mythological messiah is just another fallacy imposed on the world by religion.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Diogenes, I agree with you that "religious nuts" have always been claiming the "end of the world". And I sincerely hope that you don't think I was doing that. The "end of the world" is not going to happen til the sun blinks out, and you're right, the sun probably isn't even half dead yet. That is not a guarantee of anything though. Mother Nature can be a moody bitch when she wants to be. But, according to the earth's layers, there have already been two mass exticntions on the earth already since it's birth. And if you want to think that the earth is not going to go through another one-- and/or that humans won't be included in it-- until the sun blinks out, then you go right ahead and think that. But the odds are that humankind "as we know it" will be long gone before the earth itself is.

People tend to think that when prophecy says the "heavens and the earth" that it literally means the earth is going to explode...and one day it will--far far far far in the future when the sun goes supernova. And when they read that the sun will go dark, that it means some supernatural event. And it very well could mean that. It could aslo be that the atmosphere is so mucked up that you just can't see the sun and the earth gets very little light. At any rate, I read "heavens and earth" as "atmosphere and life". Mass extinction. A renewal. It could happen tomorrow, or it could happen 2000 years or 10,000 years from now, but it will happen. At this point, I'm afraid we are in more danger of a possible nuclear war breaking out. But I'd say it would not happen in my lifetime-- if that ever happens at all. I'm not planning on building any fallout shelters in my basement or stocking up on canned foods, put it that way.

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In fact, according to Jesus and all the early christians, *that* was in fact the 'end times'.

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Sorry DL, I have to disagree with you on that one. The things I have read made it sound like the followers of Jesus thought that the end times were at hand, but that Jesus himself really said different if you listened closely to what he was saying. Anyway, it can be argued that the actual words of Christ that are written in red in the bible were written way after his death, and are probably changed. But, I choose to believe the actual teachings of Jesus himself are written correctly. The things that are written (in red) that he was supposed to have said were far too wise, and far too cryptic, to have been purposely changed to read that way. He could speak volumes with just a few short sentences. Volumes that had a stark and plain truth about them without bias or judgement. The parts that seem tampered with and re-interpreted, to me, are very plainly biased and judgmental with obvious motivational reasons behind them. That's just the way I see it though.

Also, on a side note. When I speak of balance, and a global unbalance, as far as government and a so called "way of life" goes...I really believe that the native americans were one of the last great nations--if not THE last-- that came as close to perfect balance that you could get. I am one quarter cherokee, and have studied their (and other native american) culture deeply and intensely for a few years now, and it really took me by surprise. Yet "white man" called them savages. They acted more Christian in their hearts than the Christians who shoved them aside, and they didn't even have the same kind of religion or ever heard of Jesus. It's really funny in a sad sad way.
*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

(Edited by Belladonna on 07-17-2005 10:34)

(Edited by Belladonna on 07-17-2005 11:42)

Bell - for exaple:

(speaking in regard to the 'end times' and all that will happen, form Matthew 24):

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"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

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mark 1:15

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15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

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mark 9:1

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"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

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There are several places where jesus states that the end will come within the lifetime of those present. These are a couple of examples.

DL

How I read it....

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"Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place."

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We are still even today under the generation of the Patriarch Jesus Christ. We will be until he comes again--and even then, still so. The bible makes clear it's use of the word "generation" and patriarchal society. Read the very first verse of Matthew. The "generation" of David ended with the start of the "generation" of Jesus, which continues. This first verse of Matthew is the last place in the bible that you see the words "These are the generation of.....(so and so)"

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15"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!"

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The same verse in my bible reads--"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

It IS at hand. "The time is fulfilled" not becasue He was here on earth right then in 33 AD or what ever year it was, but becasue He is getting ready to ascend to His throne in Heaven as King of the Earth by His death. Jesus's death was His blood covenant to His bride (believers--his church) His ascention was the beginning of the Kingdom of heaven as true prince of the earth, his later descention will be the end of His rule of the heavenly kingdom and beginning of his rule of the new earthly kingdom.

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"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

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And He spoke true. Some standing there with him that day DID see His kingdom come with power--by witnessing His ascention to the Throne of God. This is when Jesus's kingdom came to power....in HEAVEN, Later, that power will be brought to earth.

Now:

Matthew 24:14--"And the gosple of the Kingdom shall be preached in ALL the world for a witness unto ALL nations: and THEN shall the end come."

24:19--"and woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in THOSE days" (not THESE days There are many of these verses in this speach of the end times where He says "those days")

24:29-30--"Immediately after the tribulation of THOSE days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and THEN shall ALL the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

24:6--"And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for ALL these things (which his is about to name in the next verses) must come to pass, but (still even after then) the end is not yet"

And there are many more places where Jesus says the end will come like a theif in the night, comparing it to the days of Noah--where people made merriment right up until the floods actually stole upon them unawares. So to be prepared, because "no man knoweth save the Father in heaven" And this could possibly include that Jesus himself does not know the actual day that God the Father will say "enough is enough, wipe them out now Son."

Well, one could still say that I interpreted the verses that you quoted MY way....but I think that OTHER verses show that Jesus is clearly pointing to a future date.....So it does not make sense that He would contradict himself in the very same "speach" to his disciples in several different places. So I have to stand by the way I'm reading it to mean. <shrug>

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

(Edited by Belladonna on 07-18-2005 02:57)

(Edited by Belladonna on 07-18-2005 03:35)

Regardless of anything else - jesus was asked directly when the end would come, and he told them that it would happen in *their* lifetimes. Seems pretty clear cut to me. Not in his lifetime, which can then be turned metaphorical.

And the early christians took that to heart...

As for the 'those days' that can quite easily refer to any point after the current time - a month down the road, a few years down the road, etc.

Yeah, "those days" could mean anytime.......the idea I get is that it will happen when it is LEAST expected. And it is obviously still "expected" even today by the largest majority of the earth.

I don't know, to me when he told his disciples that the gosple had to be preached to the entire world and all nations before the end would come....well, it would take longer than even the disciples great grandchildren to even preach it to the "then known" world. Now, if you are inclined to believe that Jesus is God's son, then you believe that HE knew how big the world was. But his disciples, they were just men. So they had no idea. And what good would it do for Jesus to try and tell them? Don't some people even now still think the earth is flat? You can show them a globe, take them on a trip in an airplane around the earth, and they still won't buy it. And still there are people in remote places of the world that still today have not heard the gosple. So, I guess it's just a matter of your perception.

Anyway....just to let you know....my mind is very logically oriented, and my mind has a very very hard time grasping the reality of Jesus coming back to life and taking off into the clouds to wait and come back in a "blaze of glory surrounded by angels" My mind screams to me that this part of it all is impossible, that ALL the supernatural things in the bible are impossible. while my mind has no problem grasping the logic of some things in the bible, such as the morality parts, the nature of man, the patterns in history, so on and so forth. But....when I listen to my heart, it says that I may not understand it, and it may make no sense, and it may seem impossible, but somehow or another, it IS all true. And I've never been a person who could dismiss what my heart says no matter how much my mind screams at me. So, that's where I am right now with my belief in God.

The warlike God of Abraham and Moses? Logic tells me that a lot of that was really the warlike mind of man, writing down words to control the masses, and to justify their invasion of a territory--not unlike Bush telling the people of today that we are doing the right thing for peace and freedom to invade Iraq. Which, of course, is part of the same land Abraham and Moses fought over. Did God really promise them that particular piece of land? Maybe. I don't know. Maybe Abraham just saw it, and wanted it, and then said God promised it. I wasn't there. Maybe God promised it, for a future generation, and then (just like the disciple under Jesus--who thought he meant NOW) couldn't wait and used God's name for war to take the land. People have been justifying their reasons to do evil things by using God's name forever. So. I don't see that Abraham's generation should be any different from what happened during the crusades, or what is happening today. The arena and context has just changed from religious to political. (But THAT's not entirely true when you consider that religion WAS politics back then. Religion has had it's own slow evolution into politics as we know it today over time. From mostly religion with political reasons underneath, to equal religious and political motivations, and today it is political with religious reasons underneath)

But considering that people have been fighting over that particular piece of land, the fertile creasent, since the dawn of mankind, tells me that there MUST be something to it that we just can't see or figure out. It's a DESERT for God's sake. Why fight over it when there are much better and prettier and more fertile pieces of land? Oil? That's a good reason to say why we want it so bad TODAY, but what about then, when people didn't use that kind of oil so much? And what about other fuel sources? We can get to the moon and to Mars, but can't come up with a feasable alternate energy source? Come on, we know that's a lie that's fueled partly by money, even though I would think that ANY alternate energy source could make just as many people rich as oil has. So, frankly, I'm baffled by it. What is it REALLY about the mesopotamia and Isreal that certain people and nations have always been so obsessed about?

Does that sound logical to you? Or does it just sound stupid and superstitious and like I'm reading too much into it? I'm not being flip...I'd really like to know some opinions here. Doesn't mean you'll change my mind, but I'd like to hear other opinions anyway to chew on.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

(Edited by Belladonna on 07-18-2005 16:25)

Well, if you take into account that Jesus never fullfilled the requirements for a Messiah, according to the rules laid out by God to the Jewish people...

How exactly do you deal with THAT conundrum?

It is the main reason, why the Jews do not believe that Jesus is the Messiah.

But....

when asked directly, when it would happen - Jesus told them that it would happen before they died. It would happen in their generation.

How do you explain that?

We can't move on to other interpretations of other passages until this issue is dealt with...

Well, WS. To tell the truth, prophecies in ANY culture confuse me. Particularly biblical prophecy. Some seem clear, some seem that they can mean two or three different things, some sound like they couldn't possibly mean anything except nonsense. Some of them I wouldn't even realize are supposed to BE a phophecy unless somebody pointed it out to me. And, I try to keep in mind that, even if some started out true bona-fide God-given prophecy, people have a tendency to turn them into what they WANT them to be and mean.

As far as the Jews, from the best I can tell (and you may know more about this than I and can point to other requirements that weren't met) they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah mainly because he didn't destoy Satan and deliver them RIGHT THEN in a war that brought back the peace and serenity of Eden. The prophecy didn't say that the Messiah would come first, and then a second time. That he would do it RIGHT THEN when he showed up here. They had built up the notion that he was going to be born, and that he was going to take over the world as some great king like Alexander the Great and crush the enemy in one fell swoop. Not some lowly carpenter who wore rags and ate by charity alone and ended up nailed to a tree. The Messiah a hippy? No way, not possible in thier mind.

But me, well, I attribute the Jews reasonings to the impatience and war-loving nature of man. A person can take the death and resurection of Christ and say it was a story that was made up just to make it look like the prophecy was fulfilled in an "out of the box" manner. And believe me, my mind tells me this is perfectly logical--my heart definately says otherwise. Or a person can look at the nature of man and how he has always wanted immediate gratification and justification and believe that Jesus really DID fulfill the prophecy in the last possible way expected. As a second chance to realize our war-like, judgemental, spoiled-brat behavior (that the Old Testament had grown into, a history that reflected the war-loving nature of man that only HID behind God) is only leading us further from the truth. And a tangible blood covenant that justification is coming--just be patient a little longer. The world at that time was not even half taken over by governmental society, and alot of the world was still in (what I call) a sense of balance back then. It was "not ripe for the harvest" yet. Only half grown. Maybe not even half.

So, that's how I look at it.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

DL--I have already explained to you why I don't think Jesus was saying it would happen at that exact time, and why his followers took it "the wrong way". People always hear what the WANT to hear and not listen to what other people are really saying. Is that not so? The disciples were ALWAYS questioning Jesus for a more clearer meaning of the things he said--where if they LISTENED the first time, they could really get it without having to ask for another explaination.

You can say that I am only hearing what I WANT to hear....and that's fine for you to say and think. But it's only the things that "I" hear that matter to "me".

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

***I'm putting this in another post because I don't know if you have read my other post***

In other words WebShaman--Men using only the old testament as their source of who God was (which is, in my OPINION a completely WRONG testamony, written by men who used the name of God for war) built up an image of what the Messiah should be like based on thier history of a war-like God, which was only a REFLECTION of war-like men.

The nature of man is NOT peace and love. The nature of man is war and selfishness. And until the New Testament, the nature of God was taught to be the same as ours--war-like and vengeful. The nature of God is Peace and Love. Therefore, any God who came down in HIS true nature, would naturally be disregarded as an imposter.

Man fell away from the nature of God in the beginning. Death--just a separation from God, not a physical death. Physical death always happened, that is the nature of EARTH--was our punishment.

Anyway, that's the only explanation my brain can come up with to try and grasp the craziness of it all and believe the same way my heart believes. But my mind still doesn't like it completely....

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

So....are you saying that what is written in that passage is simply not accurate?

One passage about when the end will come is not accurate, but a different passage in regard to the same subject, by the same author, is right on the money?

I certainly would call that kind of interpretation "hearing what you want to hear" from the bible.

If that's not what you meant, then you will *definately* need to clarify, without so much conjectural tangent....

No DL. You are still not hearing what I am saying.

And I honestly don't know how better to explain what I am saying over these forums. If I sat down with you face to face, with the verses on hand, maybe I could at least make you understand what I am trying to say. You may still not believe it, but at least you would see where I was coming from.

But let my try one more time anyway, because I really hate to be misunderstood.

In my view of what Jesus is saying, When asked by the disciples when the end was going to come, Jesus said, My Kingdom will come to power in your (specific) lifetime. But the end times--the time of renewal for the earth, not the "end of the world", will come later in the future.

This is how I read Matthew chapter 24. Not just how I "interpret" it. To me, it is very plain and up-front that this is what he was saying. And it is also plain to me that it is easily misunderstood unless you actually study the bible yourself to first, realize that a "generation" is under the patriarchal system, second, realize that Christ spoke cryptically so that his words would not get changed, therefore you have to pay close attention to what he is saying, and three--pay very close attention to the tense of pronouns in context to what he is saying.

It is also plain to me that man is very impatient, and don't listen, and want what they want right when they want it. And they EXPECTED and WANTED Jesus to "deliver" them right then, in their lifetime. So that is all they HEARD. Well, he DID deliver them. Just not the way they wanted, and DEFINATELY not in the way they had always expected.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

quote:

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As far as the Jews, from the best I can tell (and you may know more about this than I and can point to other requirements that weren't met) they didn't accept Jesus as the Messiah mainly because he didn't destoy Satan and deliver them RIGHT THEN in a war that brought back the peace and serenity of Eden. The prophecy didn't say that the Messiah would come first, and then a second time. That he would do it RIGHT THEN when he showed up here. They had built up the notion that he was going to be born, and that he was going to take over the world as some great king like Alexander the Great and crush the enemy in one fell swoop. Not some lowly carpenter who wore rags and ate by charity alone and ended up nailed to a tree. The Messiah a hippy? No way, not possible in thier mind.

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Uhhh...what are you talking about?

Haven't you researched this?!

Goodness...this is really most telling.

The Jews had a number of potiential Messiahs, from varying walks of life. Quite frankly, it didn't matter much from what walk of life one came, as long as the Prophecies were fulfilled!

I'm frankly quite shocked at your lack of knowledge in this very crucial area, Bd.

This area is the most crucial, because it establishes whether or not Jesus was a Messiah according to the laws laid down by God himself, according to his chosen people!

And according to the laws handed down by God to his chosen people, Jesus could not have been a Messiah because he did not meet the requirements.

So, the question becomes one of who has the authority to decide if Jesus was a Messiah or not?

That which was written after Jesus' demise, or that which was written before!

The Jews choose what was written before. Most xians choose after.

But the problem with choosing after, is that everything else in the Old Testament then becomes questionable.

I have extensively researched this area (and some of my findings and results are posted on this Board). If you so wish, I can even point you in the right direction - just start looking for sources like the Talmud, and what defines a Messiah according to the Jews.

Well, WebShaman, I stated my confusion with the prophets, and research that I have done really hasn't pointed me to any other "requirements" that were questioned as much as the deliverence itself. This shouldn't be too surpriseing, since I really didn't know much about God until my early adulthood to begin with other than childrens stories....My earliest interests were science, then more occultic things dealing with magic and so forth. So my Christian beliefs have been last....and there were MANY other things about it I had to reconcile myself with before I could even accept as much of it as I have. Starting with believing ANYTHING of the bible, and how it could possible have more of the truth in it than I thought, and if so, then why it contradicted itself so much, especially in the sense that the Old Testament spoke of a vengeful and killer God, and the New Testament was just the exact opposite. A loving and sacrificing God.

Therefore, my study of the prophets is fairly new in my "conversion". And most of the sources that I have seen and heard of so far are christian in nature anyway. So they talk a lot about the ones that match up. Or seemingly match up, if you'd rather put it that way.

So instead of patronizing me....just give me a list of the unfulfilled requirements that you are talking about. Don't point me to webpages, or tell me certain things to research. I am very capable of doing an unbiased research on my own if I know what I'm looking for to begin with. You have obviously researched the Messiah aspect far longer than I, so just tell me exactly which requirements that YOU yourself are in agreement that WEREN'T fulfilled, and then I'll look into them gladly.

You seem to be a very intelligent person, who researches anything you are interested in thouroughly and, most importantly, without bias, so I feel like that any prophecies that you can see that weren't fulfilled are definately worth looking into.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

Please excuse the long post.

Bd, all this material was posted here, before. I'm putting a lot together, for you, because you don't seem to be inclined to find it yourself.

Okay...here is what Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein has to say about it.

quote:

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Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein, founder and president of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, said that the theology of Evangelical Christians has an ?exclusivist? nature to it ? believing in the ?centrality of Jesus? in order to obtain salvation ? which runs counter to many other religions, and even other denominations of Christianity. For example, Eckstein notes that in Judaism, one can be considered a good person without being Jewish by observing the Noahide laws outlined in Genesis.

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from here Bush clarifies his
stand on Jews, heaven

Then we have this

quote:

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A Rabbi?s perspective
http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/jewishsociety/Why_Jews_Dont_Believe_In_Jesus.asp
by Rabbi Shraga Simmons

In the wake of Mel Gibson's phenomenally successful film and the production company's ambitious plans to market the film worldwide to "the faithless," taking advantage of what is perhaps "the best Christian outreach opportunity in 2,000 years," it is important for Jews to understand why we don't believe in Jesus.

The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.

4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

But first, some background: What exactly is the Messiah?

The word "Messiah" is an English rendering of the Hebrew word "Mashiach", which means "Anointed." It usually refers to a person initiated into God's service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3)

Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as "an anointed one" (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: "God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord's Messiah [Saul]..." (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6)

Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34)

Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5)

Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

________________________
2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)

Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300 BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.

Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David. (2)

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)

Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14 records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"

Scriptures from teh Qur'an 4:163-165
163 Lo! We inspire thee (Muhammad) as We inspired Noah and the prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as we imparted unto David the Psalms;

164 And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses;

165 Messengers of good cheer and off warning, in order that mankind might have no argument against Allah after the messengers. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.

Robage

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From Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

But there is something else to consider - and that is what the Jews are saying.

Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies that were given to the Jews from God himself through prophets (according to the Jews).

quote:

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1. JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

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Blocks are mine. The Jews have other books, manuscripts, and teachings that are far older than the NT, btw. Apparently early Xians didn't include them into the Bible and the NT (I wonder why? Because they show that Jesus could not be The Messiah?).

I find this more than telling, especially when one combines it with the information that DL has posted. Just "conviently" leave out those manuscripts that show that Jesus cannot be The Messiah. Interesting.

Why would God lie to his Chosen people, and exclude them from Heaven? Is any Xian seriously suggesting that Adam, Eve, Abel, Noah, Moses, David, Joshua, etc did not go to heaven?

And it would seem that the Mormons and JW are accepting the view of the Jews to a point (concerning the human properties of Jesus), moreso than the Evangelist Xians.

And who are Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi? I need to do some research on these two. It would seem that the Jews have more information on the actual events of that time, than what is revealed in the NT.

Pretty interesting stuff!

Bar Cochba - Under the leadership of Bar Cochba, or Barcochebas, the Jews revolted in Palestine during Hadrian´s reign (A.D. 117-138). They persecuted the native Christians for refusing to join the insurrection.

Shortly after the destruction of the Second Temple, the Jewish warrior Bar Cochba led a short-lived rebellion against the Roman occupation of the Land of Israel (80-83 CE). Maimonides describes Bar Cochba as "a great king whom all of Israel, including the great sages, were convinced was the messiah" (Hilchot Ta'aniot Ch. 5, Hilchot Melachim Ch. 11). In fact, one of the reasons that the solemn fast of Tisha B'Av (the ninth of Av) was instituted - in addition to the destruction of the Holy Temple - was to commemorate Bar Cochba's downfall.

This is crucial to a proper understanding of the role of the messiah. From Maimonides' words, we understand that Bar Cochba's attempt to restore the kingdom to Israel and return the nation to its land is clearly defined by Jewish law as a messianic manifestation. Thus a fast was decreed for all generations to mourn the failure of this process. In other words, the attempts of Bar Cochba had messianic potential.

Bar Cochba was the Jewish leader of the disastrous rebellion against Roman occupation in 132 A.D. Bar Cochba believed he was a messiah and descendent of King David. The rebellion was put down savagely, and Bar Cochba was killed in battle

This makes for fascinating reading - Mashiach: The Messiah especiallythis part

quote:

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What About Jesus?

Jews know that Jesus could not possibly have been the mashiach. Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both of which are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the mashiach as Jews have always understood it. Jesus neither did any of the things described above, nor did he bring about the anticipated messianic age.

On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kochba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, and harsh military figure. Among others, Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kochba was the mashiach. Bar Kochba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a mashiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold, of course. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kochba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the mashiach (as Jesus' followers should have done with their pretender to be mashiach).

Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the mashiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the mashiach: Shimeon Bar Kochba, Shabbtai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the mashiach; therefore, none of them was the mashiach. Thus, the mashiach and the messianic age lie in our age or in a future age, not in the past.

In our generation, thousands of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's followers claim that their brilliant Rebbe was the mashiach. But his more sensible students have now, after his death, expressed disappointment that it turned out that the Rebbe just did not fulfill the expectations described above in his lifetime, and admit that we are still waiting for the real mashiach to come.

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And what about Shabbtai Tzvi?

quote:

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The Doenmeh roots go back to the immense messianic crisis of the 1660s. Across the Jewish world, Shabbtai Tzvi, an Izmir-born kabbalist, was accepted as the promised redeemer of Israel. It was a turbulent time for Europe's Jews, who were looking for deliverance in the wake of the devastating massacres in Ukraine and elsewhere. Tzvi declared himself the messiah in 1665, and prepared to lead the Jewish people to the Holy Land. He also told his followers that the Ottoman sultan would become his slave.

In response, the Ottomans arrested Tzvi and gave him the choice of conversion or death. The messiah chose apostasy, and converted to Islam the next year. While the great majority of Jews subsequently renounced him, some - the ma'aminim, or "believers" - secretly kept their faith in him. About 200 families of believers - the original Doenmeh - followed Tzvi into Islam. In secret, they practiced their own form of Judaism, based on the "18 precepts" supposedly left by Tzvi - essentially the Ten Commandments (with a very ambiguous replacement for No. 7), along with a ban on intermarriage with true Muslims.

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from Jewish Whistleblower

Interesting.

I find it particularly interesting, that followers of other "past" Messiahs continued to believe in them afterwards. Sects, if you will.

But the mainstream Jewish faith is still waiting for The Messiah to come.

I'll leave this brief, as there's no need to dwell on the point -

quote:

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No DL. You are still not hearing what I am saying.

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I'm hearing it....I just disagree completely.

quote:

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A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

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All those requirments have not been met as yet because they have not happened yet.

There were plenty of messianic prophecies which have been fulfilled by Him, and as for the rest, humanity sorely lacks patience. http://thechapel.org/html/point-by-point_fulfillment.html

Aww hell, what am I doing. I'm not getting sucked into this.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Like I posted here Ram -

quote:

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If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah."

Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

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I am aware of what the xians say - but what they say, is based on what was written after, not before. And just like the xians like to do, they "fit" the pieces according to what they believe, and not vice versa.

quote:

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All those requirments have not been met as yet because they have not happened ye

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Uhhhhh.....yeah, that's kind what is meant by "haven't been met".


Obviously your intent is to emphasize the 'yet' part in relation to Jesus' return. Ok. Sure. When it happens, drop a line - we'll discuss my erroneous judgement then

quote:

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Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.

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Missed that line. Sorry.

From my knowledge, that is the only counter I can offer as well, and to me personally it makes sense. Just because the term "second coming" was invented post OT, does not in any way mean it is not prophesized, albeit not given such a precise name. There are verses in the OT indicating that the Messiah would be crucified, resurrected, betrayed for 30 pieces of silver, despised, ect ect. (page with lots of cross-referenced prophecies) and the time frame between those events and the fulfillment of remaining prophecy is not indicated. We are talking God here, and I don't think 2,000+ years is of much consequence.

Surely for the "good news" could not be spread throughout the world overnight while accounting for the free-will that God bestowed upon man, it would take many many years, in fact millenia for something like that to happen, and I still think there are tribe in places that have not been introduced. It would have been nice for it to happen in a more peaceful way, but that is neither here nor there. (Just finished reading Zinn's the "People's History of the US", and there was some rather disturbing stuff in there)

Now granted, I'll admit the possibility that the NT could have been been crafted and or manipulated in such a way that it appears to fulfill the prophecies and bring into the picture a second coming for those that were not, but that is where I take my leap of faith, and arguing faith is futile. Probably why I try to stay out of these threads...

quote:

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Obviously your intent is to emphasize the 'yet' part in relation to Jesus' return. Ok. Sure. When it happens, drop a line - we'll discuss my erroneous judgement then

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ROFL, yep, I'll make a note.

As an aside, I really wasn't calling anyone's judgement erroneous. If I came off like that it was unintended. I never profess to be right in my beliefs with regard to religion, as that is what they are, beliefs. Some go for it, some don't. If I am wrong, I'll rot six feet under and that will be that, I'll never know it, but at least I had a good philosophy to try and live my life by and something that made me feel good inside.

(BTW: I took up the recommendation on Imperfect God. About halfway through and thus far it has been very enjoyable. Thanks.)

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

Great information WebShaman. I must admit, I haven't done much research into the Jewish religion, which now seems stupid on my part NOT to have done, since Christianity grew out of the Jewish faith. Needless to say, I *will* be doing more research on it.

Anyhow, here's my response to your post. And mind you, this is *pre-indepth-researh*, but I can still give you a feasable response at this time to what you have posted:

Bar Cochba--I will have to look more into this later, but just from what is written there in your post confirms my belief that the Jews were, and still are, expecting a messiah who will make war to free them, or to give them their land back and bring all the Jews back home. (I should have said "war with Rome" in my earlier post instead of "war with satan"--haste on my part. sorry) I don't see where this guy filled any of the OTHER requirements, (but I will have to look more into it), but yet they were ready to accept him simply becasue he claimed to be from the line of David, and he was physically trying to free them from Roman rule.

Shabbtai Tzvi--This guy chickened out and denied even his OWN claims, converting to Islam to save his own neck. Why he may still have followers is beyond me. But, this one I'll have to look more into also

Now for the requirements of the Old Testament:

I could say something very sarcastic here, about how I figured you of all people could show me something new, but I'll refrain, since now I can see that I didn't make myself clear about what I had read about already and what I hadn't, and just say, I've read all about these before.


A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).

I know the usual arguments--that Jesus stated he will "tear down and rebuild the temple in three days". But that he meant metaphorically speaking. By his Death and resurrection--hense the three days. So christians say this is a metaphor. And it can be said that He DID do this metaphorically speaking. But let me tell you what *I* think--and you may or may not have heard this view before. Ezekiel is speaking to God, getting a vision from God himself. The whole chapter makes no mention of the messiah, or that the messiah is going to do this. It says HE (God) is going to do it. And I think HE is going to do it at the end times of THIS heaven and earth. Because the temple will not be rebuilt until after the Jews are ALL reunited--that won't happen till the end times. Now one thing I do know, is that the Jews say the messiah is of earthly birth,--that he will be a man no more than you or I are, not devine at all. So, if the Jews believe that the messiah is going to be an ordinary man, then why do they accredit this passage as a prophecy requirement for the messiah, when it clearly says that God himself is going to do this?

B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).

Once again, no mention of a messiah in this passage--it was stated by God to Isaiah that He would bring Isreal back together again. The jews believe that messiah is a man--why would they accredit this as a requirement?

C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)

Once again--stated by the Lord God himself, and it actually says "in the last days". No mention by God that a man from the line of David will do this, but rather HE will do it.

D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

Again, no mention of a messiah, just the Lord God himself will do all these things. Plus, it is a very long stretch for the Jews to say that being King of the world means that universal knowledge of the God of Isreal will take place, and that all humanity will be as one.

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Here in this passage, it is told of a man from the line of Jessie, (so we're talking about a man, the messiah) And that the spirit of the lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of council and might, the spirit of knowledge and fear of the Lord. It does not say that he will be a prophet. It says, well, it says exactly what Jesus was. A very wise and God-fearing man. It says a Branch will grow out of his roots. And you could say that it did--a new religion. It says that he will not judge with his eyes or ears, but with righteousness--and Jesus passed judgement on sins that were pointed out to him by his heart. It was He who kept the fornicating woman from being stoned when the "law" said she should be killed. Although these were not "final" judgement. It says that the Gentiles will seek him. It also says that the wolf will dwell with the lamb and the cow shall eat with the bear so on and so forth. This did not happen when Jesus walked the earth.....but to me speaks that He had supernatural powers, and was not just a mortal man. Just becasue he didn't make it happen THEN, doesn't mean he didn't have the POWER to do so. He sure did do a lot of OTHER things that showed his power.

Do you see where I'm going? The Jews use this passage to say messiah was a man, not divine. But anyone who can make wild animals eat together instead of eating each other--which can be taken "as written" or metaphorically as bringing peace--would HAVE to be of God. No MAN is going to bring peace, men can SAY they are bringing peace, but they say it while they are WARRING for peace. They also use this passage to say He was a prophet--and Jesus wasn't viewed as a prophet by Jews, but I'm sorry but Islam identifies him as a prophet, and he did prophecy of the end times. Yet they claim he wasn't a prophet for reasons that regard Isreal alone.


B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

This is a tough one. I have no qualms that the messiah is of the line of David. But then how is Jesus this if he is born of a virgin and not Joseph himself. Christians point to the curse of the serpent in Eden to say that it will be a virgin birth, because it says "her" seed. And women have no seed. But that interpretation is a huge stretch to me....it is of the same calibur as the Jews saying the messiah is a man, yet point to all these things that the Lord God said HE would do. Bullshit, in other words. And I've already stated in the above paragraph that I think the messiah is of devine nature. So, how could it be, if he was of David's seed? I really couldn't tell you, this is one of those "supernatural" things my mind has a hard time grasping, but since I believe in God, it is not hard to say that God just sort of mingled with Joseph while he and Mary.....made a baby. This is a blasphemous thought in the mind of a WHOLE lot of people, not to mention a thought that is considered pagan--bringing Zeus to mind.

But, still, I DO see this one as a loose thread in my reasoning. I just have to deal with it. I have to keep looking into this one. For the time being, I have to accept that EVERYONE believes that Jesus was from the line of David, even the Jews don't deny that. So why not my "pagan" belief that Jesus had TWO fathers. Also, by all accounts, the geneaologies were destroyed in 70 AD, so any one born now I don't see how it could be proved that he came from the line of David. Unless there is a hidden record somewhere, which could just "pop-up" when the one who the Jews THINK is the messiah shows up. This is an interesting theory of how the great false prophet in Revelation will make his "authentic" claim. Who knows?

Also is that fact that the very chapter that talks about the messiah being a man from the line of david, speaks of his peace bringing powers. So, there IS a passage that says he will be BOTH of man AND of God.

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

I don't see where Jesus denied the Laws of Moses. I see where he CLARIFIED them from where the priests over the centuries, and even Moses himslef according to Jesus, changed.

I'm going to be straight up honest here, I read the old testament before I read the new testament, or the words of Christ. And I can tell you, from the VERY FIRST TIME that I read of Moses and his laws, I believed that God spoke to him, but I also saw that Moses was a politician and was trying to control a huge mass of people. People who were haveing to travel a long way, over a long time, by foot. I saw that all the long drawn out laws didn't quite match up to "thou shalt not kill" and "thou shalt not commit adultery" and so on and so forth. And I saw Moses as the very first Evangelist the world has seen. Give me your gold and finest cloth, and this and that to build the tabernacle. I saw that the priests set themselves above everybody else.

In my opinion, they took the Universal God of EVERYBODY and made him into what they wanted him with words. Did he speak to them? Yes, I think He did. But does he speak to them anymore? No. And I have reasons for thinking this. They set Isreal above everybody else in the world. And the strictest Jews STILL do this today. Saying the Laws are only for them. Saying that "understanding" will be only for them. But this is what the Jews have learned from thousands of years of learning it. So I don't hold it against them at all.

But I felt from my VERY FIRST TIME OF READING that the "line of priests" used their God Given status to make what they wanted to out of what they were given. It does not take a genius to see that. And Jesus called them out on it to their faces in a very BIG way. So big, they plotted to KILL him. So much for "thou shalt not kill" from the oh-so-law abiding priests.

Well, I could say a whole, whole, lot more on this subject, and exactly why I think it, but it would take a whole book, and my post is way too long as it is. So. That's all I'm going to say. I don't see where the Jews can say for sure where Jesus didn't fulfill the prophecies other than the virgin birth vs. normal birth. And even that is questionable to me.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

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It would have been nice for it to happen in a more peaceful way, but that is neither here nor there.

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Neither here nor there?
I'd say it's a pretty damn important part of it.

The opening chapter od Zinn's history of our nation is a good summation of the type of action that has soured my view of christianity. It demonstrates with absolute clarity that you can spread the word without getting the message.

And - let's assume that this chistian thing is real for a moment - if the goal is to spread the message of Jesus' word and love, and the method we use is the abuse, enslavement, and genocide of those different from us, because we view them as lesser beings, not worthy of the most basic human rights, then I'd say we have spread only one message, and that message has nothing to do with holiness, with good acts, with love, with forgiveness. It has only to do with the absolute extreme of selfish arrogant evil.

Yes, many people in the world have now heard of Jesus.

But we have not spread any 'good news'.

So, if that is one of the criteria....we'll never see the kingdom of god.

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As an aside, I really wasn't calling anyone's judgement erroneous. If I came off like that

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Not at all - my own words, adressed generally to the overall...

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DL: Neither here nor there?
I'd say it's a pretty damn important part of it.

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Well, there is a distinction to be made between the actual teachings and the actions of those who have claimed to be followers. Clearly there have been men of great influence (and small) who have tarnished the teachings of Christ, using Christianity simply as a means to an end, but rather than turn me away from or sour my view of Christianity it turns me away and sours my view of humanity in general.

You can't blame the original teachings of Christ, which are of love and doing no harm (that is what I get from them), for the actions of humans, who are apt to war and violence and selfish motivations. Had they not had Christianity to use, can you say with certainty they would not have found another excuse? I believe they would have, as long as they could quell their conscience with something.

We destroy everything that is good and pure, it is what we do best, and I cannot blame the Bible or Christianity for that, I blame the faults of mankind who are easily tempted by evil.

I think far too often we tend to focus on past atrocities commited en masse in the name of such by those who litter our history books and fail to recognize the good it has made in so many billions of others on an individual, family, and community level.

That's how I see it anyway.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

You misread me.

I don't blame the 'original' teachings for anything.

I blame 'chistianity' for raping those teachings and 'spreading the good news' through attrocious acts of violence and cruelty throughout the centuries.

If christianity weren't there, there would most certainly still be the violence. That is a human condition that will never go away.

What religion does is fortify the transgressor with the thought that his actions are mandated by god, and not only is he entitled to do so, he is required to do so. Obviously this is *not* part of the 'origianl' teachings - but that's my point.

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I blame 'chistianity' for raping those teachings and 'spreading the good news' through attrocious acts of violence and cruelty throughout the centuries.

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Ok. I did misunderstand. We are in total agreement, aside from the belief/non-belief part.

When people refer to 'Christianity' I always consider the term to mean the original teachings and philosophy aspect, not the institutionalized religion aspect that came later, thus my confusion.

To use the term 'Christianity' to refer to Roman Catholisicm (Romanism) or any other institutionalized variation in which words and teachings are twisted for whatever end always seemed a contradiction to me.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

DL--you ARE right of course. There's no doubt about it--but if you choose to let the nature of mankind make you bitter and resentful toward people who claim religion, then I can only feel sad for you. Because not everybody who claims religion acts like the "masses". And I'm sure you probably know some people who claim religion and are good people. It's the masses that you let decide your opinion.

In the mean time, I'm still waiting for a counter to my post. That the "requirement" list the Jews go by is crap because the the Messiah is supposed to be an ordinary man from the line of David, yet they say he is going to do all these things that GOD said he'd do himself, NOT "through" an earthly man from the line of David. It would be one thing to say God was going to do all that "through" someone on earth if ALL the passages said that, and there was no mention of a MAN whatsoever. But it's not like that.

So, I don't know if I haven't got a counter becasue A)nobody read it B)everyone thinks it's ignorant so deem it not worthy of an answer or C) nobody has a counter or D) I'm just too impatient and should give it a little longer.

*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

I haven't let such things make me bitter and resentful. My view of organized religion is formed by many things - first and foremost education. Part of that education is a view of the evil done by organized religion. There are plenty of other parts, which I have expounded on many times around here (check out the FAQ, if you're in the mood for digging through old posts on the subject...).

Obviously there are exceptions to any rule.

But damn...we're talking close to 2000 years of violence, cruelty, oppression, murder, torture, etc etc etc.

That's an awful big legacy for the occasional exception to overcome.

As for the prophecies - I have stayed out of the subject for the most part. It is not an area that I am particularly knowledgable in at this point.
I do know that I often hear (and read) christians expounding how amazing it is that Jesus *did* in fact fulfill all the prophecies, to which I can only respond: oh please.....
But I can't get into more detail at the moment