Topic awaiting preservation: Jesus Requires Genesis (Page 3 of 4)

WebShaman--First, I really want to apologize for my little outburst there. Message board conversations really frustrate me

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Read what I post, not what you think I post.

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I would suggest examining how you choose to communicate a bit closer. I am not the only one pointing such out to you.

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I could make the same suggestion to you. That comment you made about "how does it feel to be in the same family..." was not only read that way by ME....as DL was so kind to point out. IF you REALLY meant it in the way you posted after.....to know what I thought of extremists (which Jade and Gideon are NOT what I consider extremists...they are just misinformed) then that is what you should have asked to begin with. Their names should not have even been brought up. And as good as you are about pointing out the minute details of what one says, and speaking in "absolutes" as you say, you should know to be careful about how you word things.

I am not even going to go further into the whole "pointing out flawed reasoning" thing.....it's pointless. You and I obviously have differing opinions on this. To me, someone with "flawed reasoning" is someone who is either mentally hanicapped, or mentally and/or socially unstable and/or ill. Or maybe a juvenile in certain instances, simply because they have not matured in their mental capabilities.

My reasoning is not flawed. My reasoning just brings me to different opinions and conclusions of certain matters than you. So you call my reasoning flawed. I am also not "misinformed", because I go to great pains to make sure I am not about most things I care about. I will make sure I get a very rounded view of a subject before I make any signigicant conclusions.

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I can't recall calling you narrow-minded.

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No, but I felt that it was greatly implied. After considering ALL the things I have posted, to even use the word narrow minded to describe even ONE sentance of mine, which is a sentence that I did not even write myself--but was the CONCLUSION you drew from what I said--gives a very unrealistic view of me.

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For example, I could really care less if Jade is a Catholic. She can believe whatever she wants. But when that belief starts affecting others (All Homosexuals are suffereing from "unpure" spirts, etc) that is where I draw the line.

Where do you draw the line?

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"Statements" do not hurt anyone. Using the example of Jade and her issues with homosexuality, if anyone should be offended, it is me. I don't know about anyone else here, but I openly stated my sexual orientation, and even though I am married to a man, and faithful in my marriage, I am STILL and always will be, a bi sexual. I tried to show her my veiwpoint, obviously she did not get it. So I am ignoring any statements she makes concerning sexuality from that point on. It only affects me if I let it. Now if she were to say something to ME PERSONALLY about my orientation, then I'd have to say something. But I would try not to do so in anger, or stoop down to her level of beratement and judgement. I couldn't absolutely promise it wouldn't go there though.

This is just how I personally deal with this kind of thing. <shrug>


*****
In the web that is my own, I begin again...

(Edited by Belladonna on 08-18-2005 14:26)

Yo yo Belladona, check this out! Hot ehh?

I

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really do wonder how those like Bugs, Master Suho, Fig, and Bd feel about such.

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Without involving them to post.. I am just about positive, Bugs, Fig, Suho feel the same way about homosexuality as I do. If so, then label them extremist too. Ask them to come on board a give an honest opionion of how they feel. I dare them to come on. If they don't its because maybe the feel they might be labled as extremist too?
Its really silly considering who is doing the name calling in regard to extremist. It all boils down to fear. Fear that some persons are going to ram down Christianity in peoples throats. Or the whole world is going Christian. And maybe it is.


And for the record, extremist is not what I am. This may be percieved by all you who speak for a liberal agenda to call all Catholics, Protestants who think the act of homosexuality is sinful. Then Christ was an extremist.


Homosexuality is harmful to the soul. If your are homosexual but do not act in regard to homosexual tendencies it is not sinful. If this affects you personally I am sorry. But this is how the majority of people in the world feel too. So label them all extremist as well. To sanction this lifestyle as legitimate in the eyes of God one would have to be in the state of Christian confusion.

And Bel, calm down. These guys live for getting a rise out of you. They have been doing it from day one. They are just posting opinions. And so are you for that matter.

If I come across radical its only because I speak for my faith and I am not afriad to tell anyone else I come across if they ask me how I feel.

Some Christian confused who have not yet acquired wisdom in the spiritual laws of God may think homosexuality is natural, but its a lie.

You cannot agree with some of Christianity. You cannot be a cafeteria Christian by picking and choosing what you want to believe. Either you are one or not. Christianity is about TOTAL submission.

So how do you propose we eradicate homosexuality Jade?

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

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But this is how the majority of people in the world feel too.

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Ahhh....so you now speak for the world? Good to know...

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Christianity is about TOTAL submission.

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Ok. But to who, or to what?

To God? To Jesus? To Benedict? To one set of writings about god and jesus, or to another set of writings about god and jesus?

To what, in your opinion, is what god wants of you? Or to what, in some leader's opinion is of what god wants of you?

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These guys live for getting a rise out of you. They have been doing it from day one.

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You obviously have an extremely warped perception, dear.

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Belladonna said:To me it's just,......................

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WOW! For one who thinks little of their knowledge, your long rant showcases the opposite!

Thanks for the knowledge BD! Even if you think you DON'T have a clue.

No that's a post!

Hey, WS, thanks for calling me a child. You really put things in perspective for me. I have much more to learn from the stand point I am in now, but my beliefs are what they are now. I would really like it if you could respect me for who I am, and learn to acknowledge my point of view. Thank you.

DL, the references to the trinity I am refering to are the Father (aka. Sovereign LORD) in the vast majority of the OT, the Holy Spirit as refered to from David, and the mysterious appearance of one "dressed in Linen" who put a mark on the heads of those to be saved. That mark was in the form of a cross. Circumstancial, yes, but not to be dismissed either.

Bell, I think what you were trying to say about us in the family of Christ is that we are family members, yes, but like most families no one sees exactly eye to eye. No one. So I count Bell and Jade and Ram and Suho and anyone else on here I forgot (sorry) as a brother or sister and I would gladly help them in any way I can.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

WS, is the question how I feel about homosexuality or about being lumped in with "extremists"? I'm happy to answer either.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Fig, if you so wish, please post to both - how you really view Homosexuality (remember, Jade challenged you to post that - not me) - I'm more interested to know how you feel about people like Jade and Gid who profuse to be "true" believers, and everyone else who believes differently then they are not "true" believers.

Such as this

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If I come across radical its only because I speak for my faith and I am not afriad to tell anyone else I come across if they ask me how I feel.

Some Christian confused who have not yet acquired wisdom in the spiritual laws of God may think homosexuality is natural, but its a lie.

You cannot agree with some of Christianity. You cannot be a cafeteria Christian by picking and choosing what you want to believe. Either you are one or not. Christianity is about TOTAL submission.

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Since Bugs rarely posts here anymore, only you and Master Suho are representing the "thinking" xians - Bd as well.

Bd, I'm going to refrain from responding to your post, because I feel my responses tend to confuse you and I see no real constructive means in that.

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Hey, WS, thanks for calling me a child.

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You are most welcome, Troll.

Total submission?

Reminds me of the old one about what to give a masochist for xmas....a sadist.

I suppose these poor wights also take brambles and flail themselves at Easter in a pathetic attept to prove their piety.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Quite a wide open question WS but I'll see what I can do.

As far as homosexuality I've got a variety of thoughts and no definitive conclusion. I do believe, as per the bible, that homosexuality is wrong, but I also believe that it's a sin much like others. We all have a bent towards something, whether it be lust, lying, stealing, drinking...there's always something that tempts you or that you're weak to. If you give in to that bent you become an adulterer, a liar, a thief, an alcoholic, or in this case a homosexual. I can't say for sure that homosexuality is genetic or not as there seem to often be similar environmental circumstances surrounding individuals who participate in that lifestyle.

I do strongly agree with one aspect of what jade said, that being xian is an all or nothing proposition, you either believe the bible is truth or you don't. Sin, biblically speaking, becomes sin when you know you're doing something wrong, and those that would position themselves as xian yet live an openly homosexual lifestyle are in my opinion completely ignoring sections of scripture and participating in something they know is against God's will (whether they've justified it to themselves or not). Does this mean they're not xian? absolutely not, but they are caught up in a sin that they're denying.

I wouldn't consider Gid or jade extremist, I might not agree with all that they believe but I think their hearts are in the right place. To be honest I don't like being lumped in with much of any group labeling themselves xian these days, I am active in a church and in several ministries but I feel that the western church as a whole really misses the mark. I've been doing some reading lately that you, WS, or DL might find interesting, its a xian book written from a very outside-the-church-box perspective.

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Sometimes I think it is easier for you and me to believe Jesus is God now that He is in heaven than it might have been back when He was walking around on earth. If you would have seen Jesus do miracles, and if you were one of those who were healed by Him or if you were one of the disciples, then it would have been easier, but for most people, especially the Jews, Jesus would have been a stumbling block.

At the same time, however, we are at a disadvantage because the Jesus that exists in our minds is hardly the real Jesus. The Jesus on CNN, the Jesus in our books and in our movies, the Jesus that is a collection of evangelical personalities, is often a Jesus of the suburbs, a Jesus who wants you to be a better yuppie, a Jesus who is extremely political and supports a specific party, a Jesus who has declared a kind of culture war in the name of our children, a Jesus who worked through the founding fathers to begin America, a Jesus who dressed very well, speaks perfect English, has three points that fulfill any number of promises and wants you and me to be, above all, comfortable. Is this the real Jesus?

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The book is called Searching For God Knows What by Donald Miller and is a quick and rather insightful read, into human nature if not xianity. He has another book called Blue Like Jazz which is subtitled "non-religious thoughts on Christian spirituality" that's also a great read. Both these appealed to me because they get away from political agendas and focus on the idea that xianity as a whole is relational, not something built on formulas. The church has become a negative icon for so many, something they've been hurt by or just don't want to associate with. As individuals xians can affect an immense number of people that will never step inside church walls, they simply have to live out their faith and let their lives affect others. One other quote from Blue Like Jazz nailed this for me:

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In a recent radio interview I was sternly asked by the host, who did not consider himself a Christian, to defend Christianity. I told him that I couldn't do it, and moreover, that I didn't want to defend the term. He asked me if I was a Christian, and I told him yes. "Then why don't you want to defend Christianity?" he asked, confused. I told him I no longer knew what the term meant. Of the hundreds of thousands of people listening to his show that day, some of them had terrible experiences with Christianity; they may have been yelled at by a teacher in a Christian school, abused by a minister, or browbeaten by a Christian parent. To them, the term Christianity meant something that no Christian I know would defend. By fortifying the term, I am only making them more and more angry. I won't do it. Stop ten people on the street and ask them what they think of when they hear the word Christianity, and they will give you ten different answers. How can I defend a term that means ten different things to ten different people? I told the radio show host that I would rather talk about Jesus and how I came to believe that Jesus exists and that he likes me. The host looked back at me with tears in his eyes. When we were done, he asked me if we could go get lunch together. He told me how much he didn't like Christianity but how he had always wanted to believe Jesus was the Son of God.

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I don't know if that answers any of your questions or simply creates more...but i think it's a fairly accurate depiction of how i feel about a lot of things at the moment.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

(Edited by Fig on 08-19-2005 23:24)

Fig, kindly elucidate the following;

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I can't say for sure that homosexuality is genetic or not as there seem to often be similar environmental circumstances surrounding inidividuals who participate in that lifestyle.

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I am particularly interested in the part where you allege there are similiar 'environmental' circumstances.

BTW, your sentence there is incomplete as well, you failed to finish the thought. As well, current scientific research does show genetic commonalities in those who are acknowledged homosexuals.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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you either believe the bible is truth or you don't.

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This particular part I have a serious problem with.

You yourself have posted here on *many* occasions about how there are some parts of the bible that are literal, there are some parts that are metaphorical, and there are some parts which simply don't apply, as they were only meant in a certain context, etc.

How can the bible either be truth or not, when it is all open to how you want to perceive it?

Are we going to go on a gnostic trip here, and say that you must posess the 'secret knwoledge' from the savior to be able to properly interpret it?

If it so black and white that it must either be all true or none...then we have no choice but to all take every word completely literally.

If you argue that is not the case, then we must also eliminate the idea of beleiving that the bible is 'either truth or not'.

Once we open it up to individual perception, the black and white is completely removed.

You can even say that the view you are presenting is an 'all or nothing' situation.
If you must beleive that the bible is truth, and accept it completely, then you must also be willing to forgo your interpretation, and take it literally cover to cover.

I know you are not willing to do that....

I think this is a very significant problem, and am curious how you respond to it.

(to clarify - I *know* that it is your view that you *don't* have to take the bible literally cover to cover. my argument is, if you make the acceptance of bible as truth a black and white issue, then that *must* carry through to the meaning of the bible as well, or the argument is lost.)

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WebShaman said:

people like Jade and Gid who profuse to be "true" believers, and everyone else
who believes differently then they are not "true" believers.

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And when did I ever say that WS? I believe that anyone who follows Christ in their heart is a true believer, whether Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, or any other. How do I or anyone else know the workings of a man's (or woman's) heart?

Thanks for that book referal Fig, I think I will pick that up. That is something I have been thinking about, but have not formulated yet. Maybe that book can help.

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DL-44 said:

Are we going to go on a gnostic trip here, and say that you must posess the
'secret knwoledge' from the savior to be able to properly
interpret it?

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I'm not going to say it because you will not like it.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

Diogenes, I read some excerpts out of a book (and the author and name escapes me) that discussed a number of common characteristics that often turn up in the background of those living a homosexual lifestyle. If i remember correctly they were dicsussing factors like an absent or abusive father, past sexual or physical abuse, and a controlling/domineering mother. How much validity there is to this I don't know, but I have found similar family situations in the lives of a number of gay people that i've known. I'm not familiar with research that shows definite genetic similarities but I'd be interested to see anything you have supporting that.

DL, I follow what you're saying but i dont entirely agree. Maybe 'truth' isn't quite the correct phrase, but i do think that the bible (despite past political and social pressures and modifications) is divinely inspired and God's letter to us. As such, and as you know of me, I think that there's room for interpretation in a lot of the books. Theological research (as opposed to secret gnostic-esque knowledge) gives us a clear picture of the different books intentions, whether they be poetic (song of solomon), instructions for certain groups in a certain time (leviticus), songs written to God (psalms), or more historical. I don't claim any sort of special interpretation, I've just done my homework unlike most xians who tend to take the bible at its simplest face value.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

(Edited by Fig on 08-20-2005 23:24)

WS, you will have to excuse my poor memory, but why is it that you label me a "troll?" I will accept names if they describe me, but I dislike being called things out of malice or spite.

Jade, do you think that a homosexual who becomes a Christian and desires to do God's Will, yet continues in homosexual activity is less of a Christian than those who do not?

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

Here is a start Fig; http://members.aol.com/gaygene/

There is a definitive and operative word in your third sentence you must pay more attention to "Often".

The family difficulties you refer too are also often quoted in the cases of mass murderers and other criminals.

They are not definitive by any stretch of the nose.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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I don't claim any sort of special interpretation, I've just done my homework unlike most xians who tend to take the bible at its simplest face value.

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I can accept that.

But it seems that no amount of research will ever close the great gaps in the varied interpretations of biblical passages. Obviously a big part of the problem is that many people simply want to make the bible mean what they want. But I beleive that looking at it as divinely inspired is the biggest stumbling block.

Designating something as an absolute, but then leaving it open to such varied interpretation just doesn't work for me.

It also seems, as has been discussed plenty of times in the past, that if there were a god who had such important things to say to his people, he'd leave it perfectly crystal clear.
Of course, I'm sure several people will immediately respond "but it *is* crystal clear!" which is fine and dandy, except that even among the christians here in this forum, the view changed drastically on almost every area.

But that's another tangent for another time

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Gideon said:

I'm not going to say it because you will not like it.

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ok

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WebShaman said:

people like Jade and Gid who profuse to be "true" believers, and everyone else
who believes differently then they are not "true" believers.


And when did I ever say that WS? I believe that anyone who follows Christ in their heart is a true believer, whether Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, or any other. How do I or anyone else know the workings of a man's (or woman's) heart?

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I think that fits what I said nicely. You have your description of what a true believer is (and everything else is not a true believer, by default), and Jade has hers.

So the Jews, who do not follow Christ, are not true believers, according to your definition, right?

As for why I call you a Troll?

Because anyone, who has been "reminded" of past mistakes ad infinitum, but continues to make the same ones again and again, can only either be

a) Stupid, moronic, etc,

or aware of that and that makes them a

b) Troll

Would you prefer that I stop labeling you as Troll?

If you are not aware of what a Troll is, I suggest you look it up.

(Edited by WebShaman on 08-21-2005 00:52)

Diogenes, my use of 'often' may be inaccurate, it's been a while since I reviewed the text in question. While those instance may not be definitive, a lot of what i refer to in this situation is knowledge garnered from firsthand observation; those experiences tend to carry quite a bit more weight than random numbers published in a piece of research somewhere. And I'm curious, are you arguing that environment has no bearing on shaping an individual?

DL, I will totally agree that on a wide variety of theological issues there are a wide variety of interpretations. The thing is, a lot of those (most actually) are fairly inconsequential to my daily faith. Loving my next door neighbor or treating the cashier at the gas station with respect aren't affected too much by how exactly creation played itself out as per the account in Genesis. Christ came to create a new covenant, separate from old Law, and by being "religious" and getting hung up on minor theogical issues the various splintered factions of the western church (and many individual xians) are simply keeping themselves from being effective.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

So, just to nitpick a litt e further (though for the record, I do - in general - understand and appreciate your view) -

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and by being "religious" and getting hung up on minor theogical issues

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Minor to you, essential to others.
And that is part of the problem.

And of course, there are issues that are far more directly to christianity, not just things like creation. As we've discussed many times, most of the real differences faded out in the about the 4th century, leaving a fairly singular course of development in the big picture, but if you look at any of these discussions here, some of the basic precepts are still not agreed upon by the relatively small number of christians who post in these topics.

Sure, jesus is the savior, jesus is god, etc. But beyond that, interpretation gets awfully varied...

{{edit -

oh, and this part:

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re simply keeping themselves from being effective.

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From being effective christians, yes.
Unfortunately a lrge number of them have been all to effective at spreading ignorance and fear (as can be witnessed by this 'id in our science class' nonsense that is all too likely to really end up happening, based purely on ignorance).

(Edited by DL-44 on 08-21-2005 15:35)

Fig, where you theory fails and points out your bias against gays is; there are a lot of people who grow up in the conditions you describe, relatively few of them become either criminals or gay.

If your theory had even the vaguest chance of holding water the incidence of either or both would be much higher.

In any event, a person's sexual inclinations are their business and nobody elses.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

As to how to read the Bible, christians could take a cue from the Lord.
Jesus told stories to illustrate a point, and this is infact the "litterary style" of God, because that's who Jesus is - The Big Guy Himself.
Infact, none of his stories where meant to be percieved as "true" in the sense that they actually happened at one point or another, but rather as "true" in the sense that they had an important point to make.
- The modern approach, infact, and one often used today.
Since the Lord/Jesus used to relate stories this way, why should I expect the Bible to be an exception, meant to be read as absolute truth?
If anyone of you of faith could explain this, it would be very interesting.
- Especially since the Bible, read as absolute truth, makes no friggin' sense whatsoever, but read as a discussion about morals, it greatly impacts the development of western culture.
Why do christians always diminish the Bible - trying their damnest to make it appear as some deranged nutcase dreamt it up?
That may be the case, but I dont get why this is such an important task for christians anyway.
What actual support is there that the Bible is supposed to be read that way, except that a bunch of old senile geezers said so, probably after one of their many frequent heartattacks?

(^-^)b

Gid, definitely check both of them out, great reads. I don't quite agree with everything he says but he definitely gets you thinking about whether the things we prioritize are really so important.

DL, I agree for the most part, and I think that what you said really illustrates the problem with western xianity in general. If you look at Christ's life in the bible he did one thing: he loved people. He wasn't concerned with people going to someone else's church, what denomination they were, if they thought drinking or dancing was ok, etc. And Paul later reiterates those things, many of his letters to the churches in Rome, Corinth, eand other, deal with their petty squabbles on theological issues while ignoring or even condoning immoral behavior.

Xianity as a whole is immensely ineffective, and as a friend of mine (who's a pastor) once told me, "Preachers aren't going to change the world." If individual xians quit worrying about what those around them were doing and simply got into their lives, loved them, and let their own lives be examples of how they were different and how God has changed them...well, they could change the world.

Diogenes, I'm hardly biased against gays and have no problem with letting anyone live the lifestyle they want to. Simply disagreeing with someone's lifestyle doesn't make me biased against them.

As far as environmental circumstances, I realize that many people grow up in less than ideal family situations and end up just fine. However, if you read what I wrote earlier I mentioned that we all have a "bent" towards something, whether that's genetic, spiritual, etc., i don't know. We may or may not choose to give in to that desire, and the right (or wrong) influences around us can certainly contribute to those choices.

I do believe people's sexual orientation is their own decision and something I'm not that concerned about, hence my lack of posts on the subject.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

I rather have a suspicion many of the 'stories' attributed to the the very likely mythological xist, predate his alleged existance by several thousands of years.

Fig, trying to attribute life-style and upbringing as a 'cause' of gayiety is one of the typical ploys used by the anti-gay religious crowd along with the insisyance it is a 'Choice", so perhaps you will forgive me for concluding you share thos sympathies?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

I'll take clarification for a thousand alex
Xian
Xianity

In my line of work, these chinese words displayed phonetically;
SHY-IN
SHY-AN-A-TEE

WTF?

X = the cross, christ

so xian = christian, just as xmas = christmas

quote]Jade, do you think that a homosexual who becomes a Christian and desires to do God's Will, yet continues in homosexual activity is less of a Christian than those who do not?[/quote]


Gideon, I don't believe one can judge in who is more of a christian than another. Only Christ can. I cannot presume to be judge and jury on the soul. Christ knows the heart of the soul and only he can determine the way of the heart. Sin comes in all forms. The sin of acts of adultery and homosexuality are sins. They are both against God's will. We judge the act of sins, not the sinner. We ourselves are no angels and sinners ourselves, so for us to point the finger on one who sins is wrong. For those who have not accepted Christ in their lives, it confusining of them in how they see a Christianity view of the homosexual lifestyle. Where we see compassion, prayer and love for all regardless of lifestyle, they percieve it as hatred, bigtory and no compassion. Because that is what they choose to believe out of anger. We all as a Christian family, want to remain a family. When we see one acting contrary to the will of Christ, it sadens us, because it sadens Christ who gave his mortal life willingly for us. . Therefore we counsel and pray for the one who is confused or just willfully sinning regardless of the consequences. I have homosexual friends, a transvestite in particular was a family friend growing up. He knows how we feel and that he needs prayers, but so do I, so he prays for me. God will hear him too regarless of how he is living. What is the difference between an adulterer and a homosexual who tries to do the will the God but continures to sin because they are weak. We, too try and keep sinning.

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Since the Lord/Jesus used to relate stories this way, why should I expect the Bible to be an exception, meant to be read as absolute truth?
If anyone of you of faith could explain this, it would be very interesting.
- Especially since the Bible, read as absolute truth, makes no friggin' sense whatsoever, but read as a discussion about morals, it greatly impacts the development of western culture.
Why do christians always diminish the Bible - trying their damnest to make it appear as some deranged nutcase dreamt it up?
That may be the case, but I dont get why this is such an important task for christians anyway.

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This view is not the view that my faith has. Though the bible is a recorded history and teachings of the faith, we believe the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth because Christ holy spirit is living and breathing the active church.. The holy scriptures are a tool to use in helping us, but must be interpreted in the right way to achieve the truth that one seeks. An example of this is how there are 1000 views for the story of Genises who some take literally. Misuse of literalizations are used in every context of the holy scriptures. Thats why I don't believe the intention of the bible as being the sole source of Christianity was ever considered by the early apostles and great prophets. Its is our view that there is more to Chrisitanity than the holy scriptures. The truth is Jesus the man/god and what he spoke and stood for.

You are a very confused person. here is a little something which will doubtless only add to that confusion; http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc1.htm

Note the differences in translating certain Greek words and the preference for the conservatives to choose the most negative interpretation in order to support their biases.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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X = the cross, christ so xian = christian, just as xmas = christmas

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Danka DL.

[quote]You are a very confused person. here is a little something which will doubtless only add to that confusion;


In my view the same could be said about you. The view you posted again seeks one persons own opinion which has no basis.

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They view it as valid today as it was in the first century CE. Verse 6:11 states clearly that once gays and lesbians become saved, then they will no longer wish to engage in homosexual activities. They will presumably become heterosexuals From a forum on homosexuality and the Bible in the Philadelphia Inquri

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Everyone is issued the invitation, but doesn't mean we can all accept the invitation. No one person knows what Christ will decide on each soul's destiny. If a sinful person gives total submission to Christ than I can see them leaving their practicing gay lifestyle. Its a very hard path to follow but with much discpline, faith and endurance one can achieve this.


Homosexuality in the Bible:


Why did God destroy Sodom? There seems to be a number of different opinions in our changing world, so perhaps it's best (as of course it always is) to let The Word of God in The Holy Bible account speak for itself. The entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah is found in Genesis chapters 18 and 19, along with numerous other references throughout the Bible. Here are a few excerpts -


"The two angels arrived in Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city." (Genesis 19:1)

"He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - young and old - surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:3-5)

"The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here - sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to The Lord against its people is so great that He has sent us to destroy it." (Genesis 19:12-13)

"By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then The Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from The Lord out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in those cities - and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt." (Genesis 19:23-26)

"The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves." (Isaiah 3:9)

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7)
Fact Finder: Did the apostle Peter say that what happened to Sodom is an example of what is going to happen to the wicked and ungodly?
2 Peter 2:6-8


Regardless if you feel that this city was not destoryed because of rampant homosexualiaty, it was destroyed because of sexual pervsions.

Jude 7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Biblical scholars debate the proper English interpretation of this passage. Some scholars feel that the "strange flesh" is a reference to homosexuality, while other scholars feel that the "strange flesh" involved refers to the citizens of Sodom seeking to engage in sexual relations or the rape of non-mortals.

As I always said - the Bible does not explicitly forbid Homosexuality.

I believe that most xians are very, very confused when it comes to this point.

[quote]You are a very confused person. here is a little something which will doubtless only add to that confusion;


In my view the same could be said about you. The view you posted again seeks one persons own opinion which has no basis.

quote:

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They view it as valid today as it was in the first century CE. Verse 6:11 states clearly that once gays and lesbians become saved, then they will no longer wish to engage in homosexual activities. They will presumably become heterosexuals From a forum on homosexuality and the Bible in the Philadelphia Inquri

---

Everyone is issued the invitation, but doesn't mean we can all accept the invitation. No one person knows what Christ will decide on each soul's destiny. If a sinful person gives total submission to Christ than I can see them leaving their practicing gay lifestyle. Its a very hard path to follow but with much discpline, faith and endurance one can achieve this.


Homosexuality in the Bible:


Why did God destroy Sodom? There seems to be a number of different opinions in our changing world, so perhaps it's best (as of course it always is) to let The Word of God in The Holy Bible account speak for itself. The entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah is found in Genesis chapters 18 and 19, along with numerous other references throughout the Bible. Here are a few excerpts -


"The two angels arrived in Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city." (Genesis 19:1)

"He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom - young and old - surrounded the house. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them." (Genesis 19:3-5)

"The two men said to Lot, "Do you have anyone else here - sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to The Lord against its people is so great that He has sent us to destroy it." (Genesis 19:12-13)

"By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then The Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from The Lord out of the heavens. Thus He overthrew those cities and the entire plain, including all those living in those cities - and also the vegetation in the land. But Lot's wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt." (Genesis 19:23-26)

"The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves." (Isaiah 3:9)

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." (Jude 7)
Fact Finder: Did the apostle Peter say that what happened to Sodom is an example of what is going to happen to the wicked and ungodly?
2 Peter 2:6-8


Regardless if you feel that this city was not destoryed because of rampant homosexualiaty, it was destroyed because of sexual pervsions.

Jude 7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Biblical scholars debate the proper English interpretation of this passage. Some scholars feel that the "strange flesh" is a reference to homosexuality, while other scholars feel that the "strange flesh" involved refers to the citizens of Sodom seeking to engage in sexual relations or the rape of non-mortals.

1) where'd you copy that from?

2) where in any of that is there *any* direct reference to homosexuality being bad?

As I stated, there is nothing in the Bible that explicitly forbids Homosexuality.

The story of Sodom and Gomorrah I know. I fail to see any explicit reference in it that strictly forbids Homosexuality, and only Homosexuality.

Found these sources to courter views that homosexuality can be treated to reverse it.

2) SAME-SEX ATTRACTION AS A SYMPTOM


Individuals experience same-sex attractions for different reasons. While there are similarities in the patterns of development, each individual has a unique, personal history. In the histories of persons who experience same-sex attraction, one frequently finds one or more of the following:


Alienation from the father in early childhood, because the father was perceived as hostile or distant, violent or alcoholic, (Apperson 1968 ; Bene 1965 ; Bieber 1962 ; Fisher 1996 ; Pillard 1988 ; Sipova 1983 )
Mother was overprotective (boys), (Bieber, T. 1971 ; Bieber 1962 ; Snortum 1969 )
Mother was needy and demanding (boys), (Fitzgibbons 1999 )
Mother emotionally unavailable (girls), (Bradley 1997 ; Eisenbud 1982 )
Parents failed to encourage same-sex identification, (Zucker 1995 )
Lack of rough and tumble play (boys), (Friedman 1980 ; Hadden 1967a )
Failure to identify with same/sex peers, (Hockenberry 1987 ; Whitman 1977 )
Dislike of team sports (boys), (Thompson 1973 )
Lack of hand/eye coordination and resultant teasing by peers (boys), (Bailey 1993 ; Fitzgibbons 1999 ; Newman 1976 )
Sexual abuse or rape, (Beitchman 1991 ; Bradley 1997 ; Engel 1981 ; Finkelhor 1984; Gundlach 1967 )
Social phobia or extreme shyness, (Golwyn 1993 )
Parental loss through death or divorce, (Zucker 1995)
Separation from parent during critical developmental stages. (Zucker 1995)

In some cases, same-sex attraction or activity occurs in a patient with other psychological diagnosis, such as:


major depression, (Fergusson 1999 )
suicidal ideation, (Herrell 1999),
generalized anxiety disorder,
substance abuse,
conduct disorder in adolescents,
borderline personality disorder, (Parris 1993 ; Zubenko 1987 )
schizophrenia, (Gonsiorek 1982)
pathological narcissism. (Bychowski 1954 ; Kaplan 1967 )

In a few cases, homosexual behavior appears later in life as a response to a trauma such as abortion, (Berger 1994 ; de Beauvoir 1953) or profound loneliness (Fitzgibbons 1999).

) AT-RISK, NOT PREDESTINED


While a number of studies have shown that children who have been sexually abused, children exhibiting the symptoms of GID, and boys with chronic juvenile unmasculinity are at risk for same-sex attractions in adolescence and adulthood, it is important to note that a significant percentage of these children do not become homosexually active as adults. (Green 1985 ; Bradley 1998)

For some, negative childhood experiences are overcome by later positive interactions. Some make a conscious decision to turn away from temptation. The presence and the power of God's grace, while not always measurable, cannot be discounted as a factor in helping an at-risk individual turn away from same-sex attraction. The labeling of an adolescent, or worse a child, as unchangeably "homosexual" does the individual a grave disservice. Such adolescents or children can, with appropriate, positive intervention, be given proper guidance to deal with early emotional traumas.

5) THERAPY


Those promoting the idea that sexual orientation is immutable frequently quote from a published discussion between Dr. C.C. Tripp and Dr. Lawrence Hatterer in which Dr. Tripp stated: "... there is not a single recorded instance of a change in homosexual orientation which has been validated by outside judges or testing. Kinsey wasn't able to find one. And neither Dr. Pomeroy nor I have been able to find such a patient. We would be happy to have one from Dr. Hatterer." (Tripp & Hatterer 1971) They fail to reference Dr. Hatterer response:


"I have 'cured' many homosexuals, Dr. Tripp. Dr. Pomeroy or any other researcher may examine my work because it is all documented on 10 years of tape recordings. Many of these 'cured' (I prefer to use the word 'changed') patients have married, had families and live happy lives. It is a destructive myth that 'once a homosexual, always a homosexual." It has made and will make millions more committed homosexuals. What is more, not only have I but many other reputable psychiatrists (Dr. Samuel B. Hadden, Dr. Lionel Ovesey, Dr. Charles Socarides, Dr. Harold Lief, Dr. Irving Bieber, and others) have reported their successful treatments of the treatable homosexual." (Tripp & Hatterer 1971)
A number of therapists have written extensively on the positive results of therapy for same-sex attraction. Tripp chose to ignore the large body of literature on treatment and surveys of therapists. Reviews of treatment for unwanted same-sex attractions shows that it is as successful as treatment for similar psychological problems: about 30% experience a freedom from symptoms and another 30% experience improvement. (Bieber 1962 ; Clippinger 1974 ; Fine 1987 ; Kaye 1967 ; MacIntosh 1994 ; Marmor 1965 ; Nicolosi 2000 ; Rogers 1976 ; Satinover 1996 ; Throckmorton ; West )

Reports from individual therapists have been equally positive. (Barnhouse 1977 ; Bergler 1962 ; Bieber 1979 ; Cappon 1960 ; Caprio 1954 ; Ellis 1956 ; Hadden 1958 ; Hadden 1967b ; Hadfield 1958 ; Hatterer 1970 ; Kronemeyer 1989 , Nicolosi 1991) This is only a representative sampling of the therapists who report successful results in the treating of individuals experiencing same-sex attractions

Man, talk about D-E-N-I-A-L.

*shrugs*

A hopeless case.

Sodom and Gomorrah: Raping strangers is not consensual intercourse. Bad example to copy jade.

Why are you so insistent on condemning one type of perceived sin when it does no harm to anyone but the perceived sinner? There are far worse things to focus your attention on where harm is done to others against their will, truly ethical sins. Mass murder, genocide, and war profiteering. Muggings, beatings, rapes, and robberies. Would you not consider these sins, those perpetrated on people without their consent, far worse than that of homosexuality? Why are you so obsesed with homosexuality? And again, what do you propose we do to stop it?

I mean really, how many threads do we need on this topic? Damn.

Ramasax
www.AmericanSerf.us

I assure you jade, 'tis none but you and your ilk who are seriously confused, confounded and clueless.

The so-called 'bible' has so many interpretations one must assume there is one for every bias, you have found yours.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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DL-44 said:

2) where in any of that is there *any* direct reference to homosexuality being bad?

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