Topic awaiting preservation: Scary web site! (Page 3 of 5)

Jade: it is very important that you understand one thing though.

*You* equate "god" with good, and "satan" with evil.

These are the conventions of your religious view.

But the president is not saying "i'm doing what is good".

He is saying that there is an entity, called by the name "God", who wants him to do these things, and he knows that this is what "God" wants..

The difference is very vast. I don't expect that you will grasp this, in all honesty. But to those of us who do not beleive in your diety, it's an extremely important distinction.

And of course, everything that I have just typed is all completely seperate from the acts of the man involved. Whether the things this man has done are good or evil is a topic too large for this thread, but suffice to say that I would call it, on a whole, the latter.

Truest thing you ever wrote jade

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Though many leaders of countries do evil acts and initiate evil practices in their countries it may have nothing to do with religion. Its about power. Bad power

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But you have to know it applise in the US as well.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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DL-44 said:

*You* equate "god" with good, and "satan" with evil.

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I think because the vast majority of the public also sees it this way is the reason I would not be ok with the president stating that in a press conference, DL. *If* I knew that his particular religion equated Satan's will with "goodness" then I would be ok with it because I would understand the context. So if you had used the name Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu, etc. instead of Satan I would have not had to qualify the answer. Jade took care of that for me.

I should point out that I'm quite positive I'm in the minority on this. I think most Xians in the country would be up in arms if any of the hypothetical cases were to be realized.

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Diogenes said:

Whether it is astrology, any of the pantheon of gods, rolling the bones or casting chicken entrails, it is all frightening because it is nothing more than a form of slight-of-hand in which the person doing the praying, casting etc, uses to justify their doing exactly what they want.

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Now the first part of that, Dio, is an extremely bigotted statement, and the second part cannot be proven.


On this looking to God thing with American presidents, this has been hardly uncommon over our history. Do you fear this more now than before? If so, what's changed? Many of our past presidents appealed to God on many occasions both personally and publicly.

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Bugimus said:

Now the first part of that, Dio, is an extremely bigotted statement,

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How???


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Still reflecting on your other commetns Bugs, will get back to them.

Because he assumes religion is trash and his world view is not. That is as bigotted as my view that there is only one God. My views are bigotted, and that is why I don't worry about that being pointed out, but I get tired of areligious folks assuming their views are superior. I just wanted to see how Dio would react I know it is impossible to offend him so there's nothing for me to lose, LOL!

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(Edited by Bugimus on 09-14-2005 00:08)

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"I know it is impossible to offend him so there's nothing for me to lose, LOL!"

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Sure ya can... . just call him a xian! =)

Ha! Cool!

Dio is a xian, Dio is a xian, neener neener neener

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Cute.

You are reading things into things again Bug.

I never suggested aetheism is better than xianity, just completely realistic, whereas xianity and all other forms of faith, are totally unrealistic.


As for bigoted...well the Bush family has the corner on that particular market.

Nor does my statement meet the definition http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/b/b0242400.html
Although I am sure you may find a dict. with a def. which suits you better.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Hold on a sec there, you don't actually know Xianity is totally unrealistic. That's a judgement call on your part. I have come to a different conclusion based on the same historical data we both have access to. It claims to be based on a historical event that very well could be valid.

I'm curious, would you consider me a bigot by the definition you cite?

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I know xianity is totally bogus because there is not one shred of proof, of hard evidence to sustain it.

It is a faith, you believe because you want to and everything follows from that.

Once one wishes to believe in something one will make all manner of allowances and ignore fact and evidence which is contrary to that will to believe.

No, I don't think you are a bigot. Being a xian does not make one a bigot, it also does not prevent one from being one.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

If Xianity was just a faith, then it would lose a tremendous amount of credibility for me.

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(Edited by Bugimus on 09-14-2005 07:08)

It is merely a faith.

There is no credibility.

There is more hard evidence to support the existance of King Arthur, whom we know to be fictitious, than there is to support the myth of either a god or a xist.

gods evolved when ancient people sought explanations for thunder, lightening, earthquakes, floods, famine etc and other ancient people learned that through manipulation of these beliefs they could also manipulate people and acquire power.

It remains so today. Religion is big business and tax free to boot. As well, as a religious leader you get away with all manner of crimes.

You may take all the above as a matter of fact...not faith.

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Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by faith, then you are conceding that it can?t be taken on its own merits.
Dan Barker, "Losing Faith in Faith", 1992

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Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Bugimus:

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If Xianity was just a faith, then it would lose a tremendous amount of credibility for me.

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What is it if it's not a faith

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If Xianity was just a faith, then it would lose a tremendous amount of credibility for me.

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Christianity REQUIRES faith. The only way you can believe in God and in the reserection of Jesus is through faith. There is no evidence for the existence of either. Every time anyone asks a religious leader questions about the existence of God, the answer is that you have to rely on faith to believe. If Christianity is not a faith, then what is it that you believe in - what do you have besides faith that makes you believe in God?

Evidence.

I would have thought this was understood after all the discussions here over the years. I think what you mean to say is that there is no conclusive proof of God or the resurrection. To say there is no evidence makes no sense at all.

Why do we accept the theory of evolution? It's based on the evidence we have to work with. We don't have conclusive proof of it as we all know when more data rolls in we may have to refine our understanding of the physical universe.

It is a very similar thing with Xianity. We have evidence that points to its validity and that leads a great many people to then take the step of faith. The evidence consists of historical accounts of people and events ~2000 years ago. There is also the rest of the bible that deals with people and events going back to at least 1200 BCE.

I acknowledge that all of this evidence leads people to different conclusions but it is evidence all the same. That was my point. If I had emphasized the word "just", it might have been clearer; "If Xianity were just a faith..."

Other religions are not based in historical events and neither do they claim to be. Those religions are intended to be based solely in faith. Xianity is different in that respect. For instance, if the authorities of the day could have produced Christ's body after his death on the cross, there would have been no Xianity as we know it.

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That?s ridiculous, it's like saying that I have evidence that gods of Olympus exist because people worshiped them for ohh so long and we have evidence of mount Olympus, all the art works etc. and the rest... you gotta depend on faith.

The only difference is that Xians made god out of man as opposed to natural force.

Bugimus, you know there is a constant mention and agreement between biblical scholars that a man Jesus never claimed to be god and worship of him as a deity developed centuries after his death.
(source: History of God, Karen Armstrong)

Beside all those things Webshaman mentioned on Jewish explanation that Jesus did not fit messianic prescriptions...ehh

Not that you going to care...whatever.

Bugimus: Sorry, but after all the discussions here over the years I thought it was clear to every body ( well, except the absolute bigots/creationist here ) that Evolution IS a fact. And as Ruski said, the historical ground of the Bible is highly questionned.

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For instance, if the authorities of the day could have produced Christ's body after his death on the cross, there would have been no Xianity as we know it.

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And if the authorities had even the slightest reason to do so within the timeframe that it would have been plausible to do so, then perhaps that could be seen as some sort of legitimate argument...

The fact that we only the gospels, written several decades later, to tell us of this miraculous resurection seems to be a prety clear message that nobody outside the christian community knew or cared much about the supposed event.

As for evolution - as has been noted in the many conversations, we *do* know that evolution is fact. Do we know all the details? No. Does knowing that evolution happens dictate the evolutionary path any particular species has taken? No. But we observe it in nature, in laboratory settings, etc.

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Ruski said:

...you gotta depend on faith.

Bugimus, you know there is a constant mention and agreement between biblical scholars that a man Jesus never claimed to be god and worship of him as a deity developed centuries after his death. (source: History of God, Karen Armstrong)

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Faith is required, yes. But there is a huge difference between believing in Xianity based on historical evidence and believing in the purple penguin that dictates the weather here on earth with zero evidence.

Ruski, the only way you can say no one worshipped Christ as deity is if you disprove the passages in the bible that clearly say he was. I think those passages are sound. Just as in the political community, you will find liberal as well as conservative biblical scholars. You will not find agreement from *all* biblical scholars on that topic. You find yourself agreeing with the liberal scholars as I do with the conservatives.


poi, I can accept it as fact only in the sense that all scientific theories are such until a better explanation avails itself. There are far too many problems with the current theory for me, personally, to casually call evolution "fact". I do NOT have a better explanation for you and no one else does either. You know me well enough to know that I do not accept Creationism as such. My personal view is certainly that God created the universe and that science is the best tool for understanding the details of how that played out. I believe it is unlikely any of us will be alive when a huge jump in understanding occurs about the origins of life on this planet.


DL, I've got to come back to your point as I'm pressed for time at the moment.

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The fact that we only the gospels, written several decades later, to tell us of this miraculous resurection seems to be a prety clear message that nobody outside the christian community knew or cared much about the supposed event.

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The conversion of thousands of civilizations should be considered miraculous. Considering the conversion is due to the the ressurection of one man in the history of 2000 years and up to this point no other human person can or will ever be regarded as the the son of the living God. A perpetuated bogas story would last as long as the ministry of Christ has.

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As for evolution - as has been noted in the many conversations, we *do* know that evolution is fact. Do we know all the details? No. Does knowing that evolution happens dictate the evolutionary path any particular species has taken? No. But we observe it in nature, in laboratory settings, etc.

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So if the theory of evolution proves to be factual one day, what does it mean to Christianity? If you are judging by the literal meaning of Genesis, your guilty of still being stuck in the literal 7 day creation mentallity like some of my Protestant brothers. Remember the writers use 7 all thoughout scripture to represent fullness. That is the point the Genesis writers are trying to convey. That creation was made to its perfection before the fall of man. So if I am understanding your view correctly your argument against the creative process of God as opposed to the evolution theory doesn't hold any kind of water. A billions light years traveled could be only a day trip to an intelligent designer or an instant who very much operates ouside the realms of time.



The gosples written are not the only recorded writings regarding Christ. Its just some of them chosen as inspiried writings used as a tool of faith. There are many older writings that did not make it into scripture, which still exist and corroborate the ministry of Christ. Before there was scripure the faith was very much alive for 300 years by oral evangelization of its believers spread thoughout the known world. Because you can't prove the humanity/divinity of Christ doesn't make it false. Simply because Christ is not here on earth right now for you to run test on as far a his miracles or works. . When he returns maybe some will have the opportuinity to follow him to understand. Or not. But we as Christians know when you see us you are suppose to see him in the metaphysical by His spiritual works that we should emulate. Becasue that is the sole purpose on why he came and is a God/Man. Because you do not accept this way of belief, or do not understand the central heartfelt message you will continue to thow out conjectures of your own.
Who are the famed scientist who have proclamimed or do proclaim now that there is no God? And if he did or does, he is very foolish because he cannot prove it.

(Edited by jade on 09-14-2005 21:34)

Round and round it goes. As noted earlier, if one of faith allows the tiniest bit of fact to enter, that one will begin to doubt.

Begin to doubt and you no longer have faith.

No longer having faith though can open the mind to reality.

You are a sharp cookie Bug, but your mind is eternally closed on this issue, making excuses and concocting rational to support the insupportable.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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The conversion of thousands of civilizations should be considered miraculous. Considering the conversion is due to the the ressurection of one man in the history of 2000 years and up to this point no other human person can or will ever be regarded as the the son of the living God. A perpetuated bogas story would last as long as the ministry of Christ has.

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Well, let me see...if we are basing things according to this - what about Hindus, Budhists, Shinto, etc?

Sometimes Jade, I wish you would post something that makes a little more sense. It is really becoming tiresome

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Ruski, the only way you can say no one worshipped Christ as deity is if you disprove the passages in the bible that clearly say he was.

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Well, Bugs, everything I have been posting about the Jews, the rules for a Messiah, and Jesus points directly in this direction, doesn't it? If the Bible is the truth, then Jesus is not the Messiah, obviously. If Jesus is the Messiah, then the Bible is not truth. That then makes everything in it suspect.

I suspect this is one of the major reasons why Jews do not embrace the New Testament, and therefore are not subject to this Quandry like Xians are. The Jews are confident that God does not lie to them, and the Old Testament is their proof of this. Therefore, for the Jews, Jesus cannot be the Messiah, because he did not meet the requirements laid down by God himself, through the Prophets (also decided through rules laid down by God to the Jews). If these rules come into question, then what a Prophet is comes into question, the word of God comes into question, and so does all that that has been left out of the Bible because it was not written by a Prophet (as decided by the rules laid down by God). That in turn puts the Old Testament into question, which of course totally shoots down the New Testament.

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the theory of evolution

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- Evolution is a fact - the process is (as are most things in Science) constantly being refined and better explored. Take Newtonian Physics, for example. A nice model, and it works. Then came Einstein, and expanded on it. Then came full quantum physics, which added even more. Does Quantum Physics make Newton Physics false? No - otherwise, all of a sudden, rockets being sent into space wouldn't be getting there, calculations would be off, etc.

Comparing Evolution (Science) to a religious belief is like comparing apples and oranges. They are just not the same thing, and cannot be measured or compared accordingly. One is based on a series of applied processes, and reproducable results that are reliably testable. The other is based on...belief.

And one belief is just as valid as the next. We know this to be true. Muslems, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintos, Xians, etc all have members that are totally convinced that their beliefs are true.

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If I had emphasized the word "just", it might have been clearer; "If Xianity were just a faith..."

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There was no need to emphasize the word just. I picked up on that, and my response is still the same.

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To say there is no evidence makes no sense at all.

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It makes all the sense in the world because there is no evidence. All there is is some writings from people who want us to believe based on faith.

Jade, I hope you also understand that there would not be all this faith if you Catholics hadn't killed/tortured everyone who didn't agree with your faith for the past thousand years.

Dan @ Code Town

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The conversion of thousands of civilizations should be considered miraculous.

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Hardly.
Depending on what point in history we wish to go back to, there are a variety of basic reasons for conversions:

1) in the earliest times, it was justice. *finally* here's someone offering reward for our miserable existence.

2) for very long periods of time, in many different places, it was the sword: convert or die. Yeah...real miraculous there

3) for a great deal of other times and places, it was a matter of politics and economics. the church was the original 'big business' in medeival europe.

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Considering the conversion is due to the the ressurection of one man in the history of 2000 years

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The conversion of so many people has nothing to do with the 'ressurection of one man' it has to do with the dogma and doctirne of the very large organization of the catholic church, and with all of the things mentioned above.

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and up to this point no other human person can or will ever be regarded as the the son of the living God.

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At the time of Jesus it was very common for emperors and kings to be called the son of god. In fact, it is a very common thread throughout many times and places.

The significance that is attached to that phrase today simply wasn't there at the time...

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A perpetuated bogas story would last as long as the ministry of Christ has.

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Human history and psychology is all about perpetuated bogus stories

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So if the theory of evolution proves to be factual one day,

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Um, as noted above, it *has* been proven factual.

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what does it mean to Christianity?

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I really couldn't care less what it means to christianity. That's up to you to decide for yourself.

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The gosples written are not the only recorded writings regarding Christ. Its just some of them chosen as inspiried writings used as a tool of faith. There are many older writings that did not make it into scripture, which still exist and corroborate the ministry of Christ.

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I am very well aware of the extrabiblical gospels. I have often told you about them, if you recall. Most of those not in the bible do not have any reference whatsoever to the resurrection.

So if very few of the christian writings, and not a single non-christian writing has any reference at all to such a thing happening, what does this tell us?

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Before there was scripure the faith was very much alive for 300 years by oral evangelization of its believers spread thoughout the known world.

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Well, the scritpure that came to be the new testament was all written within the first two centuries....so I'm not sure how there could have been faith for 300 years prior to that....?

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Who are the famed scientist who have proclamimed or do proclaim now that there is no God? And if he did or does, he is very foolish because he cannot prove it.

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And as has been said so many times it's ridiculous - something that cannot be disproven cannot be proven.
The burden lies on the person who would show that something *does* exist when there is a complete lack of evidence for it.

Using your logic, I will now proclaim that Bugimus' anal-dwelling weather penguin not only exists, but is the one true penguin. I have witnessed it, and now it is written.

There is now almost as much evidence for the anal-dwelling-weather-penguin as there is for the resurection of Jesus.

If you would say it is not true - you are very foolish, for you cannot prove it.

It is much easier to believe than to give up on your way to immortality. Disbelief is not for those who are weak of heart and mind. Religion gives a sense of protection to those who seek shelter and brings riches and power to those who understand it. Who would turn down an offer of eternal protection and immortality? An offer that also provides simple answers to all the questions in the universe. Only those who are strong enough to accept the reality.

When you die you just DIE. Poof! Game over! The machine broke.

People tend to subconsciously think that they are in the center of the universe and everything spins around them. That's exactly where all the ideas of souls, reincarnation, life after death (the foundation for most religions) etc come from. That's because it is impossible for any of us to imagine the sensation of dying and that life goes on without us. Just as it is impossible to imagine infinite universe. We don't want to accept that our part in this world is miniscule at best.

Actually I'm guessing that dying is something like falling asleep ... except for the pain in some cases. One moment you are there, the other you are dead.

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Before there was scripure the faith was very much alive for 300 years by oral evangelization of its believers spread thoughout the known world.

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Even if most of this were true, it was not spread "throughout the known world". It was known in a small portion of the world. It didn't get spread throughout the known world until it was embraced by the Romans and became the official religion of the Holy Roman Empire.

DL-44:

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Using your logic, I will now proclaim that Bugimus' anal-dwelling weather penguin not only exists, but is the one true penguin. I have witnessed it, and now it is written.

There is now almost as much evidence for the anal-dwelling-weather-penguin as there is for the resurection of Jesus.

If you would say it is not true - you are very foolish, for you cannot prove it.

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You really want to make her go nut

It way well do that, but that paragraph is meant to make a very valid and serious point, despite the inherent sarcasm.

Here is another scary site...well, at least a scary article;

http://www.smirkingchimp.com/article.php?sid=15261

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Good bit Dio.

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Bush brings together the holiness zeal of Christian evangelicalism with patriotic fundamentalism.

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About as succinct and accurate as it can get.

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Ruski, the only way you can say no one worshipped Christ as deity is if you disprove the passages in the bible that clearly say he was. I think those passages are sound. Just as in the political community, you will find liberal as well as conservative biblical scholars. You will not find agreement from *all* biblical scholars on that topic. You find yourself agreeing with the liberal scholars as I do with the conservatives.

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Yes "the scripture" says it, but there are others that DO NOT, and they are one of the early Christian writings with completely different ideas and concepts on Jesus and god.

Plus, the library of new testament as we know it, has long been modified and collected specifically to fit a certain agenda, the concept of trinity is an example, it did not come to be until about 4th century...and the main theology of Christianity as we know today, was dictated by a man (Saul/Paul) who hasn?t even met Jesus himself...

Hell the four main gospels that tell a story of Jesus' life contradict each other, some mention events that did not even occur in other. For example Luke was Greek, there for we have a concept of virgin birth present since Greek mythologies were full of virgin births of various heroes, while other authors absolutly dont mention anything about virgin birth.

If you look at something Like gospel of Thomas...now that?s completely different theology and highly contradictive to western Christianity, even New testamnet itself...

Truly disturbing. These people have authority??

Abandon hope...

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Well, the scritpure that came to be the new testament was all written within the first two centuries....so I'm not sure how there could have been faith for 300 years prior to that....?

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Your saying you were unsure if there was Christian faith before the written sriptures were made known to the known world???? Are you not reading your history books???? Up to the point where the Cath church complied the scripture you must be saying they made up the NT. The faith was very much alive and was spread all over continents by the apostles and their followers before anything was complied regarding faith. If you knew the history of the scriptures you would know that there were not many NT texts circulated because they were hand written by monks for hundreds of years even after the canon of scripture was proclamimed. It took a year to produce one bible and all writers had to be very careful in translation and hold true to the meaning of scriptures. This seems an impossible task, but they did. Usually only the religious kept the scriptures, then the elite before they were made more available to the lay person and followers. In acient times many could not afford them and of if they were ordered it would take years to get one. Most followers had to know the faith by pictures, wall & stone paintings, church windows, etc. (Thats were we get 1st story, 2nd, 3rd story, 4th story bldgs from. Because in the acient times the pictures told a religious history).

Even if the Christian faith was embraced by the Roman empire many years later as you think, it could still be part of the fulfillment of holy spirits desire to spread its message. No doubt that is one of the reasons for the continued growth. Even when the faith was underground it was growing by leaps and bounds.


I really think you are not understanding the magnitude of the growth of Christian faith in the first two hundred years. ( Remember Rome's persecutions of Christians in the thousands in many arenas for entertainment)

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quote:When you die you just DIE. Poof! Game over! The machine broke.

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(If you know this, where is your proof of this since no one person that has ever died proved this to you?

(Edited by jade on 09-15-2005 16:17)

Man, you probably subscribe to that last site I posted.

I see you also have doubts about the faith you support so strongly;

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If you know this, where is your proof of this since no one person that has ever died proved this to you

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Isn't the mythological return from death of a man the whole basis for your religion?

It has always been my contention that those who make the biggest fuss about their religion are those with the least faith in it.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Keeping up with the theme; http://www.4religious-right.info/introduction2.htm

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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The conversion of so many people has nothing to do with the 'ressurection of one man' it has to do with the dogma and doctirne of the very large organization of the catholic church, and with all of the things mentioned above.

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Sorry, but it does. Just ask them. Many are being coverted today and they are not Catholics, they are Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Jahovah Witnesses, etc. So whats your answer to this? They have no catholic in them.

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Using your logic, I will now proclaim that Bugimus' anal-dwelling weather penguin not only exists, but is the one true penguin. I have witnessed it, and now it is written.There is now almost as much evidence for the anal-dwelling-weather-penguin as there is for the resurection of Jesus.

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Well , for the simple fact that there are no Penguinites followers today. And there are not Pengunite churches. Really DL you logic seems foolish.
I know you would rather be a Pengunite than a Christian, Right? That would be more logical for you to believe.

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Plus, the library of new testament as we know it, has long been modified and collected specifically to fit a certain agenda, the concept of trinity is an example, it did not come to be until about 4th century...and the main theology of Christianity as we know today, was dictated by a man (Saul/Paul) who hasn?t even met Jesus himself...

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In the end it really doesn't matter how you were able to understand, dissect, make fun of or prove scripture is false, because that is not where the heart of Christianity lies.
Its the heart of the human person in its quest know God. So if the cannon of scripture was never introduced and there were never ever any bibles handed out, would we still have a Christian faith? Yes, we would because the first 300 plus years proves it. So, all the did Paul say this right or wrong or did Peter really go there are there and if there was never ever anything written down regarding the resurrection of Jesus Christ would Christianity still be alive today? I say yes because we still have the Church or churches who would spread the message of Jesus Christ who died so that we could live forever beyond time. And that is all we need to know. The Church will always be the pillar and foundation of truth who will guide all Christians in the millenniums to come. It would be a very silly and foolish thing for us to say that all other sect who do not follow Jesus are not saved. Since his ressurection there are civilizations who were never taught the ways of the Lord. Where did they go? to Hell. I think not. We who know and still deny by our actions will be in danger of loosing their souls.

(Edited by jade on 09-15-2005 17:03)

(Edited by jade on 09-15-2005 17:10)

Jade you are missing something very important...the heart of christianity has always lied in the concept of "convert or die." (exculding few good men) and those websites are an example of what can happen again.

Europeans literary rape all the continets and force fed their bullshit ideologies worldwide, not to mention America, Asia, Africa.

Message of peace my ass, CAtholic Church didnt do shit about slavery, burning innocent victims alive, or tortuing anyone who wasnt xian.

Like someone has mentioned, christianity was born and died on the cross and will never ever be there again.

I see she ignored my point about her gaff.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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DL-44 wrote:

Well, the scritpure that came to be the new testament was all written within the first two centuries....so I'm not sure how there could have been faith for 300 years prior to that....?

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Jade wrote:

Your saying you were unsure if there was Christian faith before the written sriptures were made known to the known world????

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It is not a matter of whether there was faith before the scriptures were written, but rather a matter of math. The scriptures were written within 200 years of the "resurrection", therefore the faith could not have existed for 300 years before they were written.




(Edited by briggl on 09-15-2005 17:52)