Topic awaiting preservation: The insidious perfidy of the church (Page 2 of 5)

<still small voice>
Boo!
</still small voice>

joking aside, i have a sense (spiritually speaking, if you will) that all these religious threads are being woven into something more. i keep getting glimpses here and there of the truth of the matter.

the Holy Spirit was poured out upon ALL flesh. it is up to each one to recognize it and take hold of it. of course it is a scarey thing.

The Holy spirit? Single malt I presume?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

WS, just seems like an overwhelmingly negative tone recently. i personally have never been involved with a denomination or group that's been involved with anything related to pedophilia and would never be, yet i'm by association group in with a group 'tolerating' this. it just seems there's a very broad brush that's liberally applied.


On the other topic, i can see your point but dont think it necessarily affects this particular instance. actually the guy is hilarious, very open about pagan influences on chrsitianity, very much not the typical church type. as such i think he'd have some interesting insights, esp given his background.

chris


KAIROSinteractive | tangent oriented

Fig; don't take too much upon yourself now...what is under attack, in-so-far as pedophilia is concerned, is primarily the church organization...which-ever church.

Clearly, the overwhelming evidence is the CEO's and their underlings, have conspired for centuries to cover-up this hideous offense.

They have as much as possible hidden it from their flocks, denied it to their flocks or brow-beaten their flocks into silence.

Unless you were one of thse who knew and kept quiet, you need not feel guilty.

Of course, I realize a large part of being a xian is guilt, but one does not HAVE to subscribe to guilt for which one is not responsible.

This includes the alleged 'original sin'.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Yerah, I was never really able to get my mind around the concept of Original Sin, nor why Mankind should be afflicted with such.

It is one of the silliest concepts in the xian religion, IMHO.

"You are afflicted with Sin! You need to be saved!"

Errrr...we got afflicted with Sin by God, and now we need to be saved from his affliction, through him

That's like going back to the Doctor that infected you with a debilitating sickness, to be treated.

Always remember WS, only the religious are sinners.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Yerah, I was never really able to get my mind around the concept of Original Sin, nor why Mankind should be afflicted with such.

It is one of the silliest concepts in the xian religion, IMHO.

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Is this because you never understood the concept of the story of Genesis?
For us believers its a timeless story. It was not necessarily written about one man and one woman. The writers are trying to give you a message about us today. There could of possibly have been no man such as Adam or Eve. Read Genesis creation story of Adam and Eve and substitute the word "mankind" for them and you will get a different view. In the view most un-educated bible readers have, its like saying, today I am going to willfully commit adultery and you are guilty too by association because your human. This doesn't make any sense. A paradise, a tree of wisdom, an apple, a snake??? The writers wrote the story in a way to convey to uneducated followers or would be followers to give them a better understanding of the will of God. However, the story of Genesis written, is still inspiring because it relates to God, so it is of God. If you pull yourself out of time, to where there is no time, Adam and Eve are you and me today, mankind. And the message is the same. To give all glory to the creator, delight in your creative self and be thankful by giving back to God. The paradise is the beauty of the soul as it becomes one with God in total commitment, The tree of wisdom is God. The apple taken from the tree of wisdom is the temptation of trying to be like God in choosing for yourself what is good and what is bad only for you and the snake is the from of which the temptation comes. It could of came via thru a bird or a frog. But the snake is what the writer choose. Maybe he didn't like snakes. Who knows. But that is not important. What is important is the message the story is trying to convey. Its all about "PRIDE" We pride ourselves in knowing what's best of us, because we do not believe in a God. We are prideful. So what's the difference from you and Adam lets say? Or me and Eve? We are both exposed to the same temptation or temptations they were exposed to according to the story. We give into weakness like they did. We go away from God, but some of us want to come back because we are sorry and want to make it right right again, whaterever the case maybe and we are given hope. So whats wrong with this?

I see the original sin as a death to the soul. We must give ourselves and our children the opportunity to be given grace. Are we born with grace? No, but we are freely given it by the waters of baptism. Baptism sanctifies us by washing away this death to the soul. We then let God take it from there because God is now making itself available to us living in us as we are a temple of his Holy Spirit. But God also gives us free will to love his ways or our ways freely of our choosing. God doesn't want us to be forced or believe because our parents made us. God wants us to look for God independly of our own. And this is where the tree of wisdom, apple, snake, fall from grace lesson is remembered.

Jade, no loving God would do such a thing.

Would you do such to your children? Curse them for all eternity, just because they wish to go their own way?

Original Sin makes no sense, whatsoever. It never did, and it still doesn't.

Unless your God is not a loving being, that is. Then it makes perfect sense.

The Jews have no problem with this, because they view God as a Zornful god.

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Read Genesis creation story of Adam and Eve and substitute the word "mankind" for them and you will get a different view.

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So *you* are now interpreting the *word* of god or, is that how someone interpreted it for you? Either way, someone is messing with the original text. How does that work? I thought the word of god is the word of god period.

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God doesn't want us to be forced or believe because our parents made us.

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If that indeed were the case why send your kids to sunday school? That's *force* whether you like it or not.

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Jade, no loving God would do such a thing.

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Your still not getting it. God cannot curse. God doesn't have anything to do with you being cursed, dammed, etc..
You do it to yourself. There is no ounce of bad, evil, ugly, mean-spirited wrath of God. God is pure love. Evil cannot contaminate him. God only knows goodness, mercy and love of which God is in infinitely.

Its a reap what you sow ideology and the results of where you end you created for yourself. Not God. God doesn't send anyone into darkness. They send themselves. Its a judgment set in motion by divine righteousness. And if it is "so be it, where you end" God can intervene by his divine mercy.

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So *you* are now interpreting the *word* of god or, is that how someone interpreted it for you? Either way, someone is messing with the original text. How does that work? I thought the word of god is the word of god period.

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This theology of Genesis has been thought of by the early church fathers almost 2 thousands years ago. Nobody is messing with scripture. If the original intent was to tell a lesson of faith where is the damage done? Besides, scripture is a tool of faith. Its not all of the faith for me.

(Edited by jade on 09-30-2005 21:48)

No Jade, YOU are not "getting it" - who made everything according to your belief? Who decided in your belief that there would only be a Heaven and a Hell? Damned if you don't.

Don't you give me that "the individual decides" crap. The system is set up, so that one doesn't have a real choice.

You are so blind. Two choices? Him or an eternity of suffering?

Your "God" has set the system up (in your belief) that if you don't exactly follow His rules, you are screwed. Hell, his chosen People are still screwed, according to your beliefs.

I say we go a third way - and throw God and his two choices out the window, and go Man's way.

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-30-2005 21:37)

Web.

Yes you do have a many choices and if you don't believe in my Christian God, what does it matter to you?

Christianity should not effect you as a person.

I believe what I believe because that is where I am guided to believe. This belief is not foreced on you. I am not forcing it on you. You have free will to think and believe what guides you in your life. We all have choices, be it in the spiritual or secular world and all those choices affect us in their outcomes here and wherever you land living and in the afterlife.


I never said the " Jews were screwed". That is your mentallty. They are still our brothers and sisters in faith of our history, though they don't believe in our savior.

You are no different from Jew who doesn't believe in the 1st coming of Christ.

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You are no different from Jew who doesn't believe in the 1st coming of Christ.

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Errr...no.

I don't believe in the xian God, Jade. I also don't believe in the Jewish God (which are supposed to be one and the same).

And no, xianity doesn't affect me as a person, not anymore - at least, the belief system doesn't, personally. But the religious organizations are about as pushy as it gets - and yes, they do tend to affect my life, still (and not in a positive manner).

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Yes you do have a many choices

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This has made me curious. What other choices are you speaking about, besides Heaven and Hell?

(Edited by WebShaman on 09-30-2005 22:11)

Cold beer in hollywood on a hot day. Pretty much heaven and hell for me.

It really is that black and white according to Xian theology. You are either in or out... it's digital.

WS, I think when jade says you are no different from a Jew of the 1st century, she means that unbelievers are unbelievers, there is no distinction. From her point of view, and mine, that is the case. There is only one way to salvation and that is through Jesus Christ, period.

What exactly is "un-loving" about Heaven and Hell? Parents allow their children to grow up and make their own decision quite often being disappointed and hurt by them. There can be no such thing as Free Will if God "forced" us to be good little robots. In order for us to truly be "good" the world has to be set up to allow us to be "bad" along with all its consequences.

Also, the concept of Original Sin makes plenty of sense when you realize that every single human being that gets to a point of knowing between right and wrong will choose wrong from time to time. We as human beings are simply incapable of rising above our sinful nature. That is one of the fundamental lessons that we can take from the Genesis story. I cannot understand how anyone could possibly put their faith in Man given our history.

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So you put the knife in the middle of the room, where your three year old is. Tell him not to touch the knife and lock all the doors. Surely someone without absolutely knowledge what the fuck is going on is really making much of a chose. He will touch the knife out of curiosity anyways and fuck up.

The reason story doesn?t make sense, is that God punished humanity for their curiosity. In fact God does want humans to be robots, he wants them to obey everything he tells them to do. There is no room for second opinion or second thought or "what if I did this". It's either my way or hell.

The western Christian theology is by far the poorest and most pessimistic idea out there. It simply views that everyone is pretty much fucked. Augustus said it himself, majority are doomed . It looks at life with disgust and tries to conceals behind as, faith in "another" or "better" life.

And I am not talking about people here, but the theology. So stop bitching about how not all chrsitians are like that.

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I cannot understand how anyone could possibly put their faith in Man given our history.

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Bugimus, thats by far most naive answear I have heard...again. It's not just "our" history it's how nature functions, the life cycle, the food chain, the extinction, death and birth.
The most we can do is learn how to live with it, rather than dream of how we will be in Disney Land when we die.




(Edited by Ruski on 10-01-2005 04:53)

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Bugimus said:

I cannot understand how anyone could possibly put their faith in Man given our history.

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I agree with that. But that statement also sums up my view of "God"
(especially since "god" is nothing more than the cop-out of man...)

(Edited by DL-44 on 10-01-2005 05:04)

Jade said:

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Christianity should not effect you as a person.

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/

Then what, pray tell, are you?

Because xianity sure as hell has affected you.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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I cannot understand how anyone could possibly put their faith in Man given our history.

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Seeing as we are one of the most successfuly animals on the planet, why shouldn't we put faith in ourselves?!

You need to back up, and see the big picture.

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Also, the concept of Original Sin makes plenty of sense when you realize that every single human being that gets to a point of knowing between right and wrong will choose wrong from time to time. We as human beings are simply incapable of rising above our sinful nature.

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There is no universal right or wrong - that's a perspective thing. Or are you referring to Man's own laws, and what a society considers is right and wrong? In that case, humans tend to be selfish, when they think they can get away with it. When was the last time you drove over the speed limit?

We are incapable of "rising" above our sinful nature? That is total nonsense. What sinful nature? Nature itself could give a damn about human behavior - in that sense, there is no "sin" involved in our behavior. As for "rising" above our nature...I'm not really sure what you are referring to here. We are what we are. Why would we want to pretend that we are something other than what we are?

Maybe you could expand on this point?

We are the animal Homo Sapiens. We come from a long line of Evolutionary winners. I see no reason not to have faith in us.

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DL-44 said:

To say that these 4 writings can be held to be of a comparable integrity with other historical documents is worse than unobjective.

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I mean that the integrity of the 4 gospels themselves is very strong. I am not saying that everything contained within them should be taken as historical fact but that their contents appear to be well supported in its transmission. The closest work of antiquity in the number of copies for instance would be Homer's Iliad. We have 650 or so Greek copies and fragments and the gap between these copies and its probable date of origin 800 BCE is about a 1000 years. There are about 5,000 Greek copies for the NT and the gap between them and the date of origin is significantly smaller.

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DL-44 said:

The small handful of references that are commonly touted by christians as extra-biblical sources of information about Jesus are nothing more then mentions of the movement, which mention the name Jesus, since that is the name associated with the movement. Nowhere is there an account of the actions, life, or death of Jesus other than the gospels.

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That is correct. Virtually everything we know about the details of Jesus' life are covered in the gospels. The other NT books deal with the theological aspects of his ministry. It's important to note that these other books demonstrate a knowledge of some of the gospel information since they were not all written at the same time by the same authors.

I acknowledge the extra-biblical sources are few, but they are not insignificant particularly when dealing with the question of Jesus' existence. We can summarize the source list with Graeco-Roman sources, Jewish sources, extra-biblical Christian traditions, and as mentioned the other books of the NT. DL-44, I've listed these in more detail here before so I'm not going to list them here right now.

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DL-44 said:
I am willing to accept that Jesus did exist. I have no reason to suppose he did
not. The circumstantial evidence for him is enough for me to give the benefit of
the doubt - but that's far different from being able to say with confidence that
this particular Jesus did exist.

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When I talk about denying that Jesus Christ existed as a man, I am not referring to every single event listed in the gospels but rather that he lived, taught and began what we now call Xianity. The arguments about the accuracy of the details will go on forever, but I'm trying to put to rest this notion that he was a complete fabrication.

Dio, as DL-44 pointed out earlier, we have to be open to the idea that the existence of a great many figures of history can be doubted based on the kinds of information we have to go on. My point is that if we treat the information objectively, it is more than reasonable to assume that Jesus Christ was an actual person.

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briggl said:
Historians who lived when Nero did wrote about Nero. We have no such writings about Jesus from historians who lived when Jesus lived.

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But we do have this one, briggl. I would like to list this source written by the Roman historian Tacitus in 115 CE to provide a very clear extra-biblical account of the existence of Jesus:

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Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed.

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(Edited by Bugimus on 10-02-2005 16:47)

(Edited by Bugimus on 10-02-2005 16:53)

Such may be acceptable to people who want to believe Bug, but for those less susceptible to mythology;

http://home1.gte.net/deleyd/religion/appendixd3.html

The Following and excerpt from: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/gordon_stein/jesus.shtml

"The next major ancient historian who supposedly mentions Jesus, and thus provides us with evidence that he was an historical character is Tacitus. Cornelius Tacitus wrote his Annals after 117 A.D. Their exact date of composition is not know, but we do know that it was at least 70 years after Jesus' supposed crucifixion. Jesus is not mentioned by name anywhere in the extant works of Tacitus. There is one mention of "Christus" in Book XV, Chapter 44, as follows:

"Nero looked around for a scapegoat, and inflicted the most fiendish tortures on a group of persons already hated by the people for their crimes. This was the sect known as Christians. Their founder, one Christus, had been put to death by the procurator Pontius Pilate in the reign of Tiberius. This checked the abominable superstition for a while, but it broke out again and spread, not merely through Judea, where it originated, but even to Rome itself, the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth. Those who confessed to being Christians were at once arrested, but on their testimony a great crowd of people were convicted, not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race." (D.R. Dudley's translation)
While we know from the way in which the above is written that Tacitus did not claim to have firsthand knowledge of the origins of Christianity, we can see that he is repeating a story which was then commonly believed, namely that the founder of Christianity, one Christus, had been put to death under Tiberius. There are a number of serious difficulties which must be answered before this passage can be accepted as genuine. There is no other historical proof that Nero persecuted the Christians at all. There certainly were not multitudes of Christians in Rome at that date (circa 60 A.D.). In fact, the term "Christian" was not in common use in the first century. We know Nero was indifferent to various religions in his city, and, since he almost definitely did not start the fire in Rome, he did not need any group to be his scapegoat. Tacitus does not use the name Jesus, and writes as if the reader would know the name Pontius Pilate, two things which show that Tacitus was not working from official records or writing for non-Christian audiences, both of which we would expect him to have done if the passage were genuine.

Perhaps most damning to the authenticity of this passage is the fact that it is present almost word-for-word in the Chronicle of Sulpicius Severus (died in 403 A.D.), where it is mixed in with obviously false tales. At the same time, it is highly unlikely that Sulpicius could have copied this passage from Tacitus, as none of his contemporaries mention the passage. This means that it was probably not in the Tacitus manuscripts at that date. It is much more likely, then, that copyists working in the Dark Ages from the only existing manuscript of the Chronicle, simply copied the passage from Sulpicius into the manuscript of Tacitus which they were reproducing".

Tacitus reference has, I believe, been totally discredited by all serious scholars who are not trying to find proof of a historical xist.

I have much less difficulty understanding him as another myth like Camelot, than I could ever conceive of believing he, in fact, existed.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Bugimus said:

I mean that the integrity of the 4 gospels themselves is very strong.

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That is what I assumed you meant, and I disagree very strongly.

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Bugimus said:

The arguments about the accuracy of the details will go on forever, but I'm trying to put to rest this notion that he was a complete fabrication.

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While I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt in regard to his existence as a person, that's still what it is: the benefit of the doubt. Until something more substantial is put forward, you will not be able to put that notion to rest.

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Bugimus said:

But we do have this one, briggl. I would like to list this source written by the Roman historian Tacitus in 115 CE to provide a very clear extra-biblical account of the existence of Jesus:

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The key word in Briggl's statement is contemporary. I don't consider 85 years (at least) later to be contemporary, and it is also very obvious that the information being presented by Tacitus here is from a christian source, not official Roman records.
Of course, again we have the issue of the title of "the Christ" as opposed to an actual name...
I don't know enough about the issues raised by Dio's post, but even if we assume that this passage was written by Tacitus, it is apparent that it is a passing along of second hand information.

I will maintain that I do not seriously doubt the existence of the man, or at least some man, who played some part of the role ascribed to Jesus in the gospels.
But I would by no means say that he can be proven to have existed, and it is quite possible that the views and actions of several people were rolled into one for this set of stories. Much like with the Arthurian legends, and the Homeric epics, and countless other stories.

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Then what, pray tell, are you?

Because xianity sure as hell has affected you.

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This is because I have accepted Jesus as God, Man, Redemptor, & Savior of my life. For myself, I am trying to do his will. Of my own free will choose to start working on my eternity on earth towards my foreverness with him.

I meant for an un-believer it shouldn't affect their daily living if they make no attachment to Christ. They should be un-effected by Christians trying to do the will of God since they don't believe in him.

I know Christianity penetrates all forms of goverment here in the USA, but you must remember, if a free society votes in the majority to keep Christians values as a rule that govern our democrary, we either go along with it or not. If it goes contrary to my belief, I would try to work to abolish it.
You have the same opportunity. For example, in the last election, one of the reasons J. Kerry was defeated was because of his stand on abortion. And his wishy washey faith ideals. Most Americas do not favor abortion. To me this played a key role in his defeat. Most Americans are religious by nature. A non-Christian or un-religious is a small minority. You have to think about who is really in charge for us. If most US social laws are in line with Christian values, who do you think Christians believe is really in charge. Its Christ. Not Geroge W. Bush. For us, its his values, he does the will of Christ. Look who is being sworn in as a new US Supreme Court Justice. A Christian. A practicing Catholic.

(Edited by jade on 10-03-2005 17:57)

Bush does the will of Christ.

I do believe I can spork my eyes out now. Won't them anymore because now I've read everything.

I am impressed by your ability to know what "most" amercans do or do not want.

I suggest to you if "most" americans didn't want abortions to be fairly available, they wouldn't be.

This would seem to contradict your contention.

Your new supreme court justice is a toady to Dumbya amd even you may live to regret his appointment.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Your new supreme court justice is a toady to Dumbya amd even you may live to regret his appointment.

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This is a matter of your opinion and I believe President Bush and the new justice are no dumbyas. I am sure at this point in time you could not fill either of their shoes. They are both extremely intelligent humans.
Thank God.

(Edited by jade on 10-03-2005 20:00)

The judge may be intelligent.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Believe me, Jade, it may seem like the hand is tipping in one direction, but a short examination of American history will reveal, that such has happened before. As usual, the balance swings both ways.

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For us, its his values, he does the will of Christ.

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Mr. Bush's days are limited.

So are the days for the Religious Right.

Then more rational heads will prevail.

To that, I say thank mankind.

And knowing that the secular left feels that way, I'm breathing a sigh of relief on these two judicial appointments. I'm just not too sure about Roberts though as he sounds a bit too moderate for my taste.

[edit]
Actually, I am quite surprised by the most recent appointment. Once some of you get the details on it, you're going to have a field day. For some of you, you may want to be sitting down first.
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(Edited by Bugimus on 10-03-2005 23:23)

We are very much aware, Bugs.

However, let us first wait and see which way they really vote - I seem to recall such before, with some previous picks.

What if they don't decide to overturn Abortion?

There are going to be some royally pissed off Right Wingers.

Does one dare to believe him? Apparently this guy said, during his interview with..who is it? Congress? Said R vs W is law and not only will not be repealed, but that the American people would not stand for it being repealed.

Which should give jade some pause to consider if her crystal ball, providing such marvellous insight into the psyche of the American People, might be due for it's centennial check-up. After all she says the guys a catholic.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Actually, WS, there is a uproar among the right wingers about this latest appointment.

I agree completely that we can only wait to see how they vote. Several of the previous appointments who were thought to be conservative turned out to be liberal. Bush Sr. appointed Justice Souter, as you recall, and that was a disaster for the right. So this just may turn out in your favor after all, we'll just have to see.

Overturn abortion? (capitalized?) That is a topic for another thread, eh? For that matter, so is this bit about the US Supreme Court


Let me offer this concerning the historical Jesus question. According to the Wikipedia "the vast majority of scholars agree that Jesus did exist." They offer this link as support http://www.bede.org.uk/price1.htm. I maintain that the view Jesus was a complete fabrication is out of sync with modern scholarly opinion.

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Bugimus said:

I maintain that the view Jesus was a complete fabrication is out of sync with modern scholarly opinion.

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And I won't disagree with you in that statement. Let's remember though, that many other such figures are still thrown in to the category of "mythology".
I guess what it comes down to, where this differs from the vast array of historical figures that we accept from ancient wirtings, the specificity that people expect to be nailed down, which obviously cannot.

The key point, for me, is as I've stated many times: with these other figures, we accept that

1) they may in fact be complete fabrications
2) they most certainly have been warped and exagerated
3) very often multiple people are rolled into one
4) such things as their actions, their lineage, their stature are almost always exagerated or fabricated

I do accept the historical jesus on these terms, as I do many other figures.

Dio - I would urge you to be more selective in the links you use as evidence on this issue. Several of them have been very shaky in many aspects.



(Edited by DL-44 on 10-04-2005 18:21)

I must say, that was a very good rundown, DL. Well said, and I share that opinion, wholeheartedly.

And don't forget Bugs - I am a Republican, I just belong to the other part of the party, that wants the Party back - it has gone waaaaayyyy too Right!

Good

I am very willing to discuss these issues about Xianity openly. I also desire to be as honest as I can when it comes to my position.

I think we decided either in this thread or another that it would be good to focus on the early history since we all pretty much agree things solidified by the 4th century. As I said then, I'll try to bone up on that aspect of this debate as threads pop up in future.

WS, yes, it is very hard for me to remember that you are a Republican. It's funny in a way. When I was still a Democrat, I remember saying exactly the same thing except substituting the word Right for Left I believe there do still exist conservative Democrats... about 2 I think at the last count

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Shaky? How? By whose standards? By what measure?

Wheter they be penned by loonies or learned, are they not all valid opinions and do we not learn something from each?

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Diogenes said:

Wheter they be penned by loonies or learned, are they not all valid opinions and do we not learn something from each?

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That's an argument the religious would use

What I mean by 'shaky' is that many of the articles you link to in this regard make points that have either been completely refuted by investigation, or are simply conjecture and opinion....the same kind which the people writing them are trying to refute.

As an example, you posted a link up there somewhere which used an image of Bacchus being crucified to show that the crucifixion was a common myth.
The problem: the picture dates from the 2nd century. After christianity. How can this possibly be used as proof of a crucifixion myth predating christianity?

To use conjecture to prove something false obviously does not work. That is what those of us opposing religion have so often stated.

All I am saying is that a little research into the sources you post would be very beneficial. There are a fair amount of wackos trying to disprove christianity using the same means that the hopelessly religious use to promote it.

Care is required...

WHACK! Ouch

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

quote:

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DL-44 said:

That's an argument the religious would use

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Hey! Watch how you're swinging that thing. I think I just caught a piece of it too!

It is excellent advice for everyone as far as I'm concerned. We should all find the best arguments we can find to use here and leave the flaky ones for those other boards

: . . DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . .

quote:

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All I am saying is that a little research into the sources you post would be very beneficial.

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This is good advice.

Although I doubt I could research as "Core-Wreck-Lee", as wanted.

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" The world today is such a wicked thing "