Topic awaiting preservation: The insidious perfidy of the church (Page 3 of 5)

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Ruski said:

So you put the knife in the middle of the room, where your three year old is. Tell him not to touch the knife and lock all the doors. Surely someone without absolutely knowledge what the fuck is going on is really making much of a chose. He will touch the knife out of curiosity anyways and fuck up.

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I have just quoted the beginning of Genesis according to Ruski. That's pretty good actually. Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of understanding what God had explained to them and there was no ambiguity. They trusted and believed God when he said that the day they ate the fruit they would die. The fact that they had a perfect relationship with God and trusted His word as truth is not something to ridicule, but rather to long for.

According to our theology, God told them the truth. It was the serpent who lied. They chose to believe the serpent and the result of that action was precisely what God had explained to them in the first place. This is the loss of that perfect and innocent relationship with the Creator. This explains that sin (deciding to do it our way) separates us from God and ends up in our own destruction. We were not designed to exist estranged from the Great Maker.

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The reason story doesn?t make sense, is that God punished humanity for their curiosity. In fact God does want humans to be robots, he wants them to obey everything he tells them to do.

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The curse is simply the natural result of their own decision to do it their way. If we do it God's way then we don't end up hurting ourselves and others, by design. But now as a result of this "original" sin the entire world in which we live is tainted and fallen.

The story makes perfect sense, Ruski. It explains why all the bad things that we deal with happen. It sets the ground work for the entire theology of the bible and God's never ending quest to reconcile Himself to his beloved creation. I think what you really mean is that you don't accept and/or appreciate this premise.

Choosing to trust the Creator of heaven and earth over lies is hardly the act of a robot. When one follows God's path, things work the way they were designed to. What you're describing is like throwing out an instruction booklet and building a complex machine your way. It's bound to be done incorrectly. It's a rebellious attitude toward God.

I think this rebellious attitude is due to us not liking anyone telling us what to do. I am definitely included in that. I hate it when others try to tell me what to do and I resist it all the time. This is part of that fallen nature I describe where we have a knee jerk reaction against following God's advice because we think we know better. Well, that was my point about human history being such good evidence that our way basically sucks.

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The western Christian theology is by far the poorest and most pessimistic idea out there. It simply views that everyone is pretty much fucked.

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This is where I think you've overlooked an extremely important aspect of Xianity. The pessimistic view is the one you and others here believe where we just exist and then we die. I understand that some here don't find that depressing at all but I most certainly do. What Xianity teaches is that we do indeed die as explained in Genesis, but that now death has been defeated. Through Christ's sacrifice on the cross we can all come back into a relationship with the Creator and not die in our sins. I cannot fathom how anyone can call that pessimistic. It is the best possible news in all the world.

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Bugimus said:

I cannot understand how anyone could possibly put their faith in Man given our history.

Then Ruski said:

Bugimus, thats by far most naive answear I have heard...again. It's not just "our" history it's how nature functions, the life cycle, the food chain, the extinction, death and birth.
The most we can do is learn how to live with it, rather than dream of how we will be in Disney Land when we die.

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You affirm the Genesis lesson when you describe our world ending in our deaths. Our theology explains why it is so. Perhaps the Disneyland representing the redemption offered by God is just a pipe dream. But the theology that you scoff at as pessimistic is the only theology that offers hope and forgiveness and a way to transcend the pitiful existence for which you recommend I settle.

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WebShaman said:

There is no universal right or wrong - that's a perspective thing. Or are you referring to Man's own laws, and what a society considers is right and wrong? In that case, humans tend to be selfish, when they think they can get away with it. When was the last time you drove over the speed limit?

We are incapable of "rising" above our sinful nature? That is total nonsense. What sinful nature? Nature itself could give a damn about human behavior - in that sense, there is no "sin" involved in our behavior. As for "rising" above our nature...I'm not really sure what you are referring to here. We are what we are. Why would we want to pretend that we are something other than what we are?

Maybe you could expand on this point?

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I will... I ran out of time for now.

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Thus endeth the lesson...one hopes.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Bugs.

God knows all, sees all, and is everywhere, everywhen, at once. Correct?

Then God already knows the outcome of everything!

So, he knew that by putting the apple in the garden of Eden that Adam and Eve would eat it. He knew in advance.

God is the guilty party, as well. Yes, Adam and Eve succumned to the Snake, and ate the apple. That also made them guilty. But God was guilty as well.

In fact, God is guilty everytime something negative happens (because he knows that it is going to happen, and could prevent it).

Guilty.

Why should anyone beg forgiveness from a being that is also guilty?

Now, if we take God out of the picture for a moment - then it is clearly Man's (and Man's alone) fault for what he does.

I say we chuck God out of the Garden of Eden, tranple on the Snake until it is dead, and enjoy our Garden ourselves.

Dio, my comments were specifically directed at Ruski and WS since they asked me direct questions that I hadn't gotten to yet. You're just going to have to suffer through more open dialogue... deal with it!!!

WS, God is guilty of creating us. He is not guilty of the choices we make. That is what I tried to explain earlier with this:

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There can be no such thing as Free Will if God "forced" us to be good little
robots. In order for us to truly be "good" the world has to be set up to allow
us to be "bad" along with all its consequences.

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In the quotes from my last post you asked "what is sinful nature?". But you actually alluded to it when you acknowledged that "humans tend to be selfish". The point is that our most basic tendencies do *not* work toward any greater good other than our own. Transcending that "natural" tendency is what I'm talking about.

Whether one believes in God or not does not prevent one from doing good. But just doing good is only a portion of the whole. Of course, it pleases me to see people regardless of belief doing good things, but at the same time it is tragic to be cut off from the source of all goodness.

In the terms of the NT, the default condition of human is to act according to the "natural" order which is based in sinful (harmful to you, others, and/or God) actions. What a reconciliation with God's Spirit does is to transform the "natural" tendencies into "heavenly" ones. This results in good deeds and loving behavior which pleases God and the individual. This is what it means to be "blessed" by God; it's the joy that comes from that union of mind, purpose and action.

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Of course God shares the guilty in the negative choices that we make! According to Xian belief, God creates each and every one of us - and he also knows exactly how we will turn out ahead of time and is therefore aware of what choices we will make. Thus, the guilt is shared.

This is also why God is guilty of sending every soul to hell. He could just decide not to let those souls who are damned come into being.

Bugs, you don't seem to be grasping this.

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But you actually alluded to it when you acknowledged that "humans tend to be selfish". The point is that our most basic tendencies do *not* work toward any greater good other than our own. Transcending that "natural" tendency is what I'm talking about.

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I in no way, shape, or form allude to "sinful nature" when I acknowldege that humans tend to be selfish. Sinful requires a being to judge the behavior (like your god). Being selfish does not.

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The point is that our most basic tendencies do *not* work toward any greater good other than our own.

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Errr....and? We eat, live, and reproduce. And we have an urge to explore the unknown. What "greater good" are you talking about?

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According to Xian belief, God creates each and every one of us - and he also knows exactly how we will turn out ahead of time and is therefore aware of what choices we will make.

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That's not the way it was taught to me in Sunday School. We make our own choices.

But if god is omniscient, that by definition must include knowing what choices we will make.

The reconciliation in logic I hear most often is that we *do* make our own choices. God knows what we will choose, but it is still our choice.

Bugs, I'd be very interested in knowing what you think about the various "sinful" behaviors that have been shown to be caused by irregularities in the brain. God made that brain....which causes a person to behave "sinfully". How is the person guilty for this? Why is god not guilty for this?

Yes, you make your own choices, sure. I never suggested the opposite.

But God is all knowing, and Omniscent. Therefore, He knows what you are going to choose, and how things will end with you, before your creation. Since He knows this, why make you, and sentence you to hell (for example), if He already knows you are going to be going to hell through the choices that you make? Better not to create you in the first place.

By creating you, He is guilty, because He already knows what choices you will make that will lead to you going to hell (for example) before your creation.

The same is true with Adam and Eve, with Sin, with Satan, etc. God knew before hand, how all that was going to turn out - so He is guilty because He went ahead and did it anyway.

This was the first "Sin" - God committed it.

This "revelation", if you will, was but one of the many reasons I turned from the xian belief. It makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.

No, I was taught that He puts us here and then it is up to us to make our own choices. He doesn't know what we are going to do, or what is going to happen to us, any more than we do. That is the reason He puts us here, to see what we will do and then choose the best of us to eventually join Him in Heaven to spend the rest of eternity praising Him.

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The same is true with Adam and Eve, with Sin, with Satan, etc. God knew before hand, how all that was going to turn out - so He is guilty because He went ahead and did it anyway.

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Same here, the way I was taught, God did not know that Adam and Eve were going to do what they did. And he was very disapointed about it which is why he banished them from the garden.

This just shows that there are different ways that Christianity is taught.

But I don't think there's a christian out there who would, if asked the question, answer that god is *not* all-knowing.

More than differences in how it is taught, is seems to me a simple fundamental flaw in the christian view of "God".

Now wait a minute - surely you are not suggesting that the xian God is not all-knowing and not all-powerful?

Are you seriously suggesting that the xian God has limits? That is a very interesting and fascinating belief.

What xain faith/denomination taught you this? Because the xian faith/denomination that I followed, certainly didn't teach that God had limits.

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I was taught that He puts us here and then it is up to us to make our own choices. He doesn't know what we are going to do, or what is going to happen to us, any more than we do.

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And if this is true, then it is certainly within the realm of possibility, that we could dispose of such a being (being that it is not all-knowing, and therefore not all-powerful) - we could learn to surpass such a being, and just...dispose of it.

Dispose of the myth...the sooner the better.

It is clear none of god-callers here can even agree amongst themselves about which, they claim a mutual belief.

Everytime they are challenged on something there is a 'reason" (excuse), or we (unbelievers) "...just don't understand", or some other weaseling out from under the contradiction or fact.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

He can be all knowing about everything that is going on, and everything that everyone does, but still not know the future.

WS, you are basing your ideas about Christianity on what you were taught by one denomination. As with everything else, there are many different views on the subject. I was raised Protestant, specifically Congregational. There are so many different denominations of Protestants that I don't know all of them, and they all have differences. This doesn't even take into account the Catholics, who also have many denominations.

There is not just one Christian view of God.

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WS, you are basing your ideas about Christianity on what you were taught by one denomination.

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Errr...actually, all the different denominations that I have come into contact with have supported the position that I used to believe in. I wasn't even aware that there were denominations that were supporting the idea that God had limits.

Interesting.

Any other limits, besides not knowing the future?

It seems to me if there were a god...his believers would all know it the same way.

The fact that no two faiths can agree on the same basic mythology suggests to me there really isn't anything upon which to agree.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Briggl - I think what is more at issue, which I alluded to in my earlier post, is not necessarily the different views of god between sects, but rather different answers to a problem depending on the question.

I have found so many inherent contradictions in my conversations with christians (regardless of sect) that it makes me dizzy.

If you ask "is god omniscient" you will invariably (from my experience) receive a resounding "Yes!"

However, if you bring the specific example that you are talking about, the answer will certainly vary, as will the arguments backing them up.

DL - I agree completely.

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This doesn't even take into account the Catholics, who also have many denominations.

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This is not true. Though there are many in the Church who want their own agenda mandated like government policy, the RC is unwaivering in many doctrines. They may split, but are not recgonized as being Catholic. Once they spinter off in their own organized sect, they are in protest, so they are considered Protestants. There is only one catholic church family.


Remember you can't please everybody all of the time. Some will have periods of shaken faith and go on a journey to find what they lack.

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the RC is unwaivering in many doctrines.

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That pretty well sums it up all right.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/loc/loc19.html

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Diogenes


For the record, not all laws and precepts of the church are regarded as doctrine. So this issue of the priesthood regarding the scandal is regarded as personal sin. Not a sin of the whole family of the church. Those involved are accountable to God. Not to you. So don't throw stones.


Its not suprising that the only RC issue you can come up repeatedly is the scandal in this century regarding the Catholics. There are 2000 years worth of historical issues and this is the only thought you gravitate towards. No doubt, it makes one validate the preception one has about religious persons. Much can be learned from this issue being brought to light. As with any dark period in ones life, one can learn from mistakes as a period of cleansing. And so does the body of the church

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jade said:

There are 2000 years worth of historical issues and this is the only thought you gravitate towards.

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Funny. Whenever anyone brings up all the other problems in the church throughout its history, you say the same thing.

What a wonderfully selective memory you have.

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Whenever anyone brings up all the other problems in the church throughout its history, you say the same thing.

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DL

In most of post history regarding the RC faith, you always bring us the same issue as well and you say the same thing over and over and over.

I focus on persons doing evil acts in the church & you focus on the whole of RC since its corrupt beginnings to today. Its as if your accuisng me of doing the evil act as well. According to your way of thinking its a wonder, the church still stands today stronger than ever.

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you focus on the whole of RC since its corrupt beginnings to today.

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Well this is what 'some' of us have been saying all along and I must say it is gratifying you agree.

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Though there are many in the Church who want their own agenda mandated like government policy, the RC is unwaivering in many doctrines. They may split, but are not recgonized as being Catholic.

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OK, we have Benedictines, Jesuits, Salesians, Dominicans, Augustinians, Carmelites, Franciscans and many more. These are all Catholic Orders with some differences in what they believe about being Catholic. (Otherwise there would be no reason for having different orders.)

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According to your way of thinking its a wonder, the church still stands today stronger than ever.

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I would question whether it is actually "stronger than ever".

I wouldn't say stronger. They are not even allow to torture people without drawing some guff. I think they have ceded a boatloads of its strength.

Not to mention that if current trends continue Islam will overtake Catholic faith in numbers in less than 15 years.

Dan @ Code Town

OK

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, we have Benedictines, Jesuits, Salesians, Dominicans, Augustinians, Carmelites, Franciscans and many more. These are all Catholic Orders with some differences in what they believe about being Catholic. (Otherwise there would be no reason for having different orders.)

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These organizations or sects within the church and many more embace the magisterium of the Church. The pope's rule. There is no separation. We also have the basianians, sisters of Charity (mother theresa's order) knights of Columbus, legion of mary, the sacred heart society, Catholic Daughtes of American, Guadalupanias, Carmelite Nuns, Sisters of Divine Providence, Incarnate Word Nuns, Oblate Priest, and many many hundreds of more sects within the church who swear faithful allegiance to Rome. Check out Catholic Priest, monks, etc. sites. There is also Benedictine Nuns. In my church we use to have Franciscan priest. Now we have oblates. No differences. They all believe the same they just focus on an area or issue of the church they ender and pledge to it.

Whatever you want to use to explain it, it still comes down to multiple sects.

One more peice of reality for you to choose not to accept

On the structure Jade is correct.

The sects are much like divisions in a corporation. In a corporation you will have your accountants, and you human resource department, and your trainers. Althought they might do different jobs, they are still working for the same organization and share the same prime goals, but they have different jobs to do, to make sure the overall goals are met.

Not to say any of the other points mentioned by DL or Briggl are mute. They are cogent and on the money. But arguing a division in the RC over the different sects is just silly. (I am not actually sure this is the point, but I see this conversation heading in that direction and that is a bit silly)

Dan @ Code Town

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Not to mention that if current trends continue Islam will overtake Catholic faith in numbers in less than 15 years

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This is not true, escpecially in the US. And its unlikely given the state of Islamic climates today in many parts of the world. Look at Afganistan and Iraq just for starters. . Free democracy elections, giving women more rights, ( we are actually seeing more Islamic women without headscarfs and some legs. The new democracy will enable more commerce/trade/imports with other countries. This will open up new ideals for growing Islamic children in the years to come. So I don't agree. I believe in the years to come the far eastern and far western cultures will become more Westernized and open to Christianity.

And you base this on.......pure conjecture and wishful thinking?

Or.....do you ahve some actual information in regard to the growth rates of various religions that would shed some insight on this?

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WarMage said:

But arguing a division in the RC over the different sects is just silly.

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But nobody is arguing a 'division' based on the sects - simply that there *are* different sects, which Jade at first denied.

There was never a of denial. Just a confusion on your part DL. In regard to sects as opposing each other in the body of organizations within the church, there isn't any. Sects would not apply as Warmarge posted in his view, he is very correct. All the organizations within the church help build it up for a common goal. The Roman Catholic goal.

For instance, the body of believers who belong to the faith of Mel Gibson, is in a schism. They don't believe in the Vatican II change of the 1960s. They want to old traditional church rites to come back, so they believe all the Popes that came after Vatican II, are imposters....not the real thing. So they are in protest. What are they now? Dissident. Separated like our Protestant brothers and sisters. Though they pray the rosary, believe in the virgin mary honor, go to communion, believe in the real presence in the bread and wine. Go to Mass every day of the week. Their only problem is Vatican II change which they resist.

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Just a confusion on your part DL.

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When it comes to this subject this may well be your most erroneous statement to date.

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briggl said:
This doesn't even take into account the Catholics, who also have many denominations.

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jade said:
This is not true.

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jade said:
There was never a of denial. Just a confusion on your part DL.

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Oh.......right.
Explain how your denial of briggl's point is my confusion?

For the record:
http://www.answers.com/denomination&r=67
http://www.answers.com/sect

(Edited by DL-44 on 10-26-2005 00:16)

Well jade, unlike you I live in the modern era and the hideous abuse by church clergy is happening now...as you read this some priest or priests is/are diddling a little boy or girl.

The problem is the church's in it's hypocritical entirety.

The late and unlamented Pope, did everything he could to cover up, lie, transfer and protect pedophile priests around the world.

The current pope, like all those before him, is and will continue the practice...very likely both of them.

Like you though, I am deeply concerned about the Islamic practices which leave

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Islamic women without headscarfs and some legs

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It is a barbaric practice and one can only hope they have ready access to shapely prosthetics.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Jade,

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This is not true, escpecially in the US. And its unlikely given the state of Islamic climates today in many parts of the world. Look at Afganistan and Iraq just for starters. . Free democracy elections, giving women more rights, ( we are actually seeing more Islamic women without headscarfs and some legs. The new democracy will enable more commerce/trade/imports with other countries. This will open up new ideals for growing Islamic children in the years to come. So I don't agree. I believe in the years to come the far eastern and far western cultures will become more Westernized and open to Christianity.

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You are off your rocker, little girl. Take a look at Turkey. It is evolving into a Democratic entity. No increase in xianity there. The cold, hard fact of the matter is, that the Moslems are out-breeding you xians. If one goes by actual practicing Moslems vs. Catholics, there are more practicing Moslems than Catholics, by a long shot. Most of those counted as xians in Europe are just that in name - because of social pressures to be baptised and communion, etc. 99 percent of those that I know, for example, here in Northern Germany have been babptised/communion, but don't go to church, and could care less about God, etc.

Talk about reality denial...wow.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Think maybe she is funnin' us?

http://www.jade.co.uk/

hey, there is a handbook too: http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/Agents/Jade/JadePrimer.html

Seems accurate; http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~vaucher/Agents/Jade/JadePrimer.html

Has her own website too: http://www.msjade.com/

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

I'm sorry for not getting back in here sooner...

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DL-44 said:

But if god is omniscient, that by definition must include knowing what choices
we will make.

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I have to agree with that, to a degree I'll explain in the next bit.

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The reconciliation in logic I hear most often is that we *do* make our
own choices. God knows what we will choose, but it is still our choice.

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For many, this is accepted as a paradox. I pretty much fall into that camp.

There are places in the bible that refer to predestination and there are other places that refer to free will. I find it impossible to reconcile both of them with my understanding. But I believe there are certain aspects of reality that we has humans are incapable of understanding and so I say they are both true. The doctrine of the Trinity is another one where I draw a similar conclusion.

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Bugs, I'd be very interested in knowing what you think about the various "sinful" behaviors that have been shown to be caused by irregularities in the brain. God made that brain....which causes a person to behave "sinfully". How is the person guilty for this? Why is god not guilty for this?

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That's an excellent question. The broad answer in my view is that the entire physical universe as we know it is in a fallen state as a result of sin. The Garden of Eden represents a world free from the terrible things we've all come to accept such as birth defects, disease, natural disaster, etc.

I do not believe anyone is guilty of any specific action if in fact the action is completely out of their control. A severely mentally handicapped person who harmed someone , I do not see the guilt in a case like that. But this would not be the case where someone chose to get drunk and then killed people in a car accident.

You may recall that I do not think we are born guilty of sin. So infants that die are innocent in my understanding. Once an individual comes to an age where they clearly know they have done wrong, that is when the sin counts against them.


Now I need to catch up on this last direction this thread has taken

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WebShaman said:

You are off your rocker, little girl.

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Am I the only one that thinks a retraction is in order here? I think this kind of condescension crosses the line.

As far as the relative numbers of Muslims and Xians in the world. I think it is correct to say that IF current trends continue Muslims will outnumber Xians in a few years. Of course, it is always possible those trends will change in the future but it seems unlikely to shift sooner than we see Muslims having the most followers.

WS, I agree with your take on Europe's "xians". As far as I've heard, Europe can be safely called a "post-Xian" society. Where you will find the greatest increases in Xianity is in South America but particularly in Africa. In fact, you now see African missionaries going to Europe! I find that very ironic.

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WS, I agree with your take on Europe's "xians". As far as I've heard, Europe can be safely called a "post-Xian" society. Where you will find the greatest increases in Xianity is in South America but particularly in Africa. In fact, you now see African missionaries going to Europe! I find that very ironic.

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I agree with this also, and now in many Catholic parishes we have priest from Africa and many Vietnamese priest presiding at parishes. I was reading an article about China, where the government is softening its presecution of Christians faiths which had to practice underground. There I read Christianity is growing. Catholic masses were allowed to continued in parts of China. This is because of good missonary work.
Praise God.


I did not expect or will not get an apology from Web. Though he knows I am no little girl, his aim is to portray a bigger man who knows more, so the little girl remark works for him. Anyway thanks for the defense.