Topic awaiting preservation: New Nomination to US Supreme Court (Page 3 of 5)

Full blown denial jade.

Sexual abuse by clergy has been going on since day one and not just in the catholic church.

Aside from that, DL said it all.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Could our complex body from digestion to reproduction be the product of accidents ? How about lizards that can turn colors to blend perfectly in with their surroundings? Is this an accident? And the humps on camels? How about the elaborate spigots in the neck of a giraffe (that keep it from choking)? Is it a mere coincidence that some creatures at the bottom of the ocean have lamps on their heads to see (or bioluminescence to attract catch to their tongues)? To not realized the conclusion of a force far more above a greater than the theory of Darwinism is not sensible.

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I won't comment on the other...not sure what to call it that you posted. I reckon DL called it correctly.

*shrug*

To the part that I quoted.

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Could our complex body from digestion to reproduction be the product of accidents ?

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Yes - I wouldn't say "accidents" - I would say evolution Jade. We see the evidence all around us. Open your eyes and see it. It is easy.

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How about lizards that can turn colors to blend perfectly in with their surroundings?

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A perfect example of evolution and adaption, that perfectly depicts the pressures of an environment on a species.

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Is this an accident?

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Nope, it is evolution.

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And the humps on camels?

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What about them - evolution. Also a perfect example of environmental pressures on a species.

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How about the elaborate spigots in the neck of a giraffe (that keep it from choking)?

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And what about them? Again, a form of evlolution. I see no evidence whatsoever of something else.

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Is it a mere coincidence that some creatures at the bottom of the ocean have lamps on their heads to see (or bioluminescence to attract catch to their tongues)?

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Coincidence? No, again evolution. A small advantage, that lead to a better production rate, that eventually became mainstream. A great example of evolution and eviromental pressures on species.

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To not realized the conclusion of a force far more above a greater than the theory of Darwinism is not sensible.

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Really? So, direct evidence ofevolution vs fable and disinformation is not sensible for you?

You live in a strange world, where the imaginative is real to you, and reality and fact fiction. Well, that is your choice and you are welcome to it, as long as you keep it to yourself. I pity your children, however. I hope at least one of them has the strength to resist you and your beliefs.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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You live in a strange world, where the imaginative is real to you, and reality and fact fiction. Well, that is your choice and you are welcome to it, as long as you keep it to yourself. I pity your children, however. I hope at least one of them has the strength to resist you and your beliefs.

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My worlds is not so strange. As you believe I live in the not so real world I may take that as a compliment as I am living to prepare myself for my next world.
I cannot keep it to myself. It is contrary to my beliefs to contain it and not share. Why do you think I am on this forum? I am compelled. I am willed. What I post comes from the one who sends me. The power to relate is a strong power that cannot and will not be silenced. Why do you think the world is full of people like me. Our hearts are open to welcome love. Love rejects no one.... where the heart is willing and able, the love of Christ can only grow, and grow and grow. My children are still growing in faith and wisdom. I gave them a strong foundation. They stand on some issues of the church and maybe wobble on some, but they are searching on their own to understand. They attend church regularly of their own free will as they have a frienship with Christ. Maybe its not as mature a friendship as they are young, but with prayer I hope they come to know the fullness of truth. They will marry and move on and take what I gave them to others. I hope.

I believe there are specialists who will be happy to help you with that compulsion jade.

No one here wishes you to alter your viewpoint, but if you persist in posting nonsense, you will have to put up with more realistic folks challenging your pretensions.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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I cannot keep it to myself. It is contrary to my beliefs to contain it and not share. Why do you think I am on this forum? I am compelled. I am willed. What I post comes from the one who sends me. The power to relate is a strong power that cannot and will not be silenced. Why do you think the world is full of people like me. Our hearts are open to welcome love. Love rejects no one.... where the heart is willing and able, the love of Christ can only grow, and grow and grow.

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So, God knows everything, and He made us, and He knows all of the choices that we will make and which of us will go to Heaven and which of us will spend eternity in Hell. So what is the point of you trying to tell people to believe in God? He knows that some of us will believe in Him and some of us will reject him and some people will be somewhere in between. You cannot change that no matter how much you preach at us. If I am going to eventually change my mind, it won't be because of anything that you tell me, it will be because God pre-ordained that I would do that.




(Edited by briggl on 11-12-2005 00:40)

If there was a god ans she wanted us to believe in her, we would, we'd have no choice.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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I cannot keep it to myself. It is contrary to my beliefs to contain it and not share.

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And this is where we draw the line, Jade. Your beliefs are yours, they are personal, and as long as you keep them to yourself, and don't attempt to force them on others, it is fine.

But you say that you are compelled to force your beliefs on others, furthermore, you feel you are justified to do so.

That puts us at war, for I will fight such with every fibre of my being.

You need to grasp that that type of behavior, mentality and belief is abhorent and anti-social. That the greatest crimes in humanity were based on exactly such mentality and belief.

You are the problem, Jade. The sickness, the cancer.

As much as I like these things I tend not to read through all of the posts so forgive me if I'm repeating something already here.


I ask you jade one question. Why must a person feel the need to dictate the desires of another. If i want to snort coke of a hookers ass while clubbing a baby seal I will go about my business, the one thing I would hope for is that I burn in Hell for it while you sit comfortably in Heaven, that is to say if there is really a heaven or hell.

My business is my thing and your disapproval is another, albeit that with this sort of attitude I could be mistaken for agreeing to murder, and honestly I do feel some people should be murder, like Carrottop, but that is neither here nor there.

I hope this made sense. Its nearly 5am here and im sleep depraved.

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By reading this you have just spent a second of your time

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But you say that you are compelled to force your beliefs on others, furthermore, you feel you are justified to do so.

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I ask you jade one question. Why must a person feel the need to dictate the desires of another.

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Because the Bible tells her so. It's part of the religion to "spread the good news".

Jade,

The personal problems you experience with the others on this board are YOUR OWN FAULT. It is an OUTRAGE that you think you can reduce it to being persecuted for being Catholic. It has nothing to do with your personal views and everything to do with your methods of interaction with others. How can you expect others to respect you when you refuse to respect them???

It seems to me you are far too interested in how YOU are perceived and far less interested in how our God is perceived. You need to wake up and start listening to the Spirit you say you represent and realize your personal status means nothing because His means everything. Respect for your faith may never come from the worldly, but you may very well garner personal respect from our friends here if you TAKE THE TIME TO EARN IT!

I have sat out of so many of these flare ups in the past but your last couple of posts have sent me over the edge.

I wish only to help you see the problem. If you take my words as just another attack, then what further can I say?



briggl,

I reject Predestination and firmly believe we are free to choose our own beliefs. From what I've heard from your posts, I have a feeling you're familiar with the passages in the bible that state salvation is open to *anyone* who wants it.

Also, there is *no* biblical justification whatsoever for *forcing* belief in God onto anyone. In fact, Xians are commanded that if one town rejects the message, we are to simply move on to those who are open to it. Yes, we are compelled to "share the good news" but never to force it down anyone's throat.

When it comes to living in a pluralistic society like ours where the people decide the laws. It is perfectly appropriate to fight for laws that one agrees with even if it restricts others. We have laws against murder, drug abuse, slander, etc. because without them we would have anarchy. Both the religious and areligious are welcome, and indeed obligated, to actively participate in our government of self-rule.

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Seems to me there is something ironic in one religious fanatic lecturing another and quoting the bible to make the point.

Bug, it matters not a whit what you accept or reject in-so-far as religion is concerned, as it is all in your head in any event and philosophy aside, enjoys no residence in Casa Reality.

It is never appropriate to fight for "laws" which would force opinions based on myths upon those who do not subscribe to those myths.

Now, I am going to repeat this until you religious folk get the message it is none of your damn business what a woman does with her body.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

That last post was hardly for your benefit, Dio. I was quite aware how much pleasure it was going to provide you, but some things just need saying.

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Diogenes said:

It is never appropriate to fight for "laws" which would force opinions based on
myths upon those who do not subscribe to those myths.

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That is simply not the case. Unless you actually believe in having second class citizens that is. It matters not one whit whether a voter is Catholic or atheist when it comes to enjoying full rights in our society. You scare the sh*t out of me sometimes, Dio, because in so many respects you're thinking is just like a religious fanatic's the only difference being you substitute your own opinions for those based on some religious text.

Now please explain to me where in the US Constitution, or the Canadian equivalent, you find that phrase you so often cite? Patrick said it above, the Constitution speaks to government and not what a woman does with her body. *That* issue should be left up to the legislature and the court should remain silent on the issue just as the Constitution does.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're just unwilling to live according to the way our governments have been set up. When you find your opinions in the minority, I think you would favor having the judges overrule the people's will. I find that to be an abuse of the system.

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I took no pleasure in your lecture at all, rather, I found it sad but indicative of what has been expressed so often here before.

Which point being, even the adherants to the folly of xianity can't agree among themselves about what it is or is supposed to be,

I do find it mildy humourous that you are worried because I have an opion considerably different than the mainstream.

That you havefailed to undestand where I am in that opionion does not surprise me, nor do I care.

As for the abortion issue. you steadfastly refuse to accept the basic fact that what a woman does with her body is not the concern of courts, government and most especially, the religious.

It is not 'the will of tjhe people' which is involved, it is the wil of the individual.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Diogenes said:

That you havefailed to undestand where I am in that opionion does not surprise
me, nor do I care.

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Actually, if I've misunderstood your position I *do* care. What have I misunderstood?

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Diogenes said:

It is not 'the will of tjhe people' which is involved, it is the wil of the individual.

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Well, that isn't always the case now is it? I pointed out examples where society does intervene in the activities of the individual. If we were all an island unto ourselves we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we live in a collective society and we all need each other to make it work.

I don't understand why you can't agree that Killing a late term fetus is not simply "her body". Scientifically speaking, it involves two individual humans capable of living independently. Now where is your willingness to deal with reality? Of course, you have to know this to be fact, so how do you square this with your conscience?

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Dan said:

After it has developed into a living human, then it should be protected, no earlier.

Lets take it a step further. Should I feel guilty when a girl I am with uses a morning after pill? Should she? Maybe I?m one of those ?extremists? but I take this very lightly. Not only have I not raised objection, I didn?t even think about it afterwards.

Edit: I should make more clear, I don't support late term abortions for any reason. Once a baby is... a baby, it has the same ownership of its body that we all have, and has the same right to life.

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Dan, I almost overlooked your points there. The hard part of your first sentence I quoted is determining when the state considers the fetus a living human. The US Supreme Court attempted to make that determination by setting up the trimester guidelines.

The main reason I would not call you one of those "extremists" is because you don't support abortion on demand up to the moment of birth. That is the position of Planned Parenthood and the leadership of the Democrat party here in the states, and yes, I consider them both very extremist on this issue.

You bring up not feeling guilty at all aborting in the early stages of development. I can understand the position and I think it is probably the majority position of the populace, but I personally cannot agree it is moral. I would not favor legislation to ban first trimester abortions. As you may know I stopped eating animals as a result of my personal beliefs that we should protect and support life. So you can just imagine how much more I would oppose killing the most helpless and innocent of humna life.

I'm encouraged to see several posters here opposed to late term abortions.

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Bugs, I understand your postion well, and I partially share it - but you have failed (and continue to, sadly) to offer a valid and realistic alternative to abortion!

Until that happens, we need to concern ourselves with the reality of the situation.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

I see Bug, you have shifted the argument from abortions in general to late-term abortions.

I would like to see some figures on the number of such abortions done on an annual basis in North America.

As mentioned earlier, I seriously doubt there are many on a per-capita basis and those are almost certainly done only in cases where the lives of one or both are threatened.

In my case, were I father to a child and in the 9th month was told the mother will die if the child comes to term (for whatever reason) I would reluctantly opt to save the mother. Very likely she could concieve again.

I believe your focus on late-term to be a red herring. I seriously doubt it is much of an issue, but does give the anti-abortion crowd an emotional hook. It also suggests to me they are losing the argument.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Bugs, Are you blind? Every chance Dio/DL get , they goad, berate, persecute me for the scandal. The only thing I can come up with is you feel the same way they do, you just don't post it. I am dissappointed in you. I must say I look at you differently. But I know that makes no difference to you.
What flare ups? Where in the world are you coming from in your regard to insults and respect. Do you think they really care what I post? No harm is being done. I mean no harm to anyone. I don't take them serious. Do I need to put a SMILEY FACE. So sorry. Here, I have been called here recently "full of Shit" by an athiest. Yet, I don't hear any kind of remark about it from you. I am surprised by your post. I never use foul language and consider anyone below me. Yet I am the one who is insulting and inconsiderate. I wonder what you are really trying to make me understand. I am supposed to be your sister in Christ. But, I seem to be your foe as well. Though you are articualte and knowlegable in some areas of Christianity, you never make a real stand for fear of being considered unlikeable.


But I want to ask you something, putting all divisions of Chrisitanity aside, what do you really believe? The love of Christ dictates, we stand firm and not wobble. There is no gray area regarding Chrisitanity. You are either a Christian or not. We, as successors to all Christians who were martyred for the faith and those who came before us to hold fast to the teachings of our faith are to spread the good news in the face of adveristy like Christ did. Though he was hated by many because of the way he stood for his father, which was very loyal, he never gave in. We are told to hang on and some of us by a slim thread, because there is hope even with the many evils of atheism in this world. And it will only get worst. Are we to say, do your own thing, believe as you do, as long as you hurt no one you will be ok? Or, are we to say, stop thinking as Satan would have you think. Repent...stop living a sinful life so you may have life eternal.


Those of us Chrisitans who have children are oligated to teach them the ways of the Lord for a solid foundation so as to avoid the many trappings evil will send. We are accountable to God. We will be asked to account for our lives and the lives of our children. " God will ask, did you teach your children to love me, did you let them know of my boundless mercy?

I came across a family member at a reunion, whos children are nomands, living with one person, then another without making any commitments. When they get tired of their friend or it just doesn't work out they move to another and another with no lasting relationship. They don't attend church, they are good people,but they lack the personal relationship which dictates discipline, love and commitment. Is it their fault? No. Its their parents. They never showed them the love of Christ by faith, love and understanding thru any religion. The married one, just had an affair. Her husband found out and its very sad. They have two small children. She feels she is justififed because she married early and didn't know what was out there. What kind of married promise commitement did she vow to uphold? This is the breakdown of a family. The beakdown Satan relishes in. Though it may not be so popular to be Christians, it certainly is where the God who rules the earth wants us to be.

Jade:

I've never encountered a 'catholic' so full of conviction as you. I dare say that when it comes to catholicism as practiced in North American you clearly are in the minority.

If memory serves, a recent survey of those who consider themselves catholic were quite at odds with the vaticans unrelenting position on birth control. Hold back, if you can the ...'well they're not catholic...then...' ...argument because as far as they're concerned they are, but.. they 'believe' the no birth control bit is something more than a bit antiquated...as they do about the other ritual of moving pedofile priests from parish to parish.

When I hear you and I do hear you Jade... I always hear you Jade... but when I hear you talk about satan this and satan that.... you really do sound as if you'd be a much more comfortable following falwell. Seems to me you're both similarly filled with the same amount of 'conviction' which is about four quarts too much.

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I came across a family member at a reunion, whos children are nomands, living with one person, then another without making any commitments. When they get tired of their friend or it just doesn't work out they move to another and another with no lasting relationship. They don't attend church, they are good people,but they lack the personal relationship which dictates discipline, love and commitment. Is it their fault? No. Its their parents. They never showed them the love of Christ by faith, love and understanding thru any religion. The married one, just had an affair. Her husband found out and its very sad. They have two small children. She feels she is justififed because she married early and didn't know what was out there. What kind of married promise commitement did she vow to uphold? This is the breakdown of a family. The beakdown Satan relishes in. Though it may not be so popular to be Christians, it certainly is where the God who rules the earth wants us to be.

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I want to make something perfectly clear here - I am married and I have a daughter. I am fully devoted to my family. I find the quoted above to be full of ignorance, arrogance, and condecension. One doesn't need to be a xian to have a strong sense of family (as the entire history of the human race has shown).

I truly feel sorry for you, Jade. You have my sympathy.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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jade said:

Bugs, Are you blind? Every chance Dio/DL get , they goad, berate, persecute me
for the scandal. The only thing I can come up with is you feel the same way they
do, you just don't post it. I am dissappointed in you. I must say I look at you
differently. But I know that makes no difference to you.

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Have you ever considered therapy, Jade?
I mean that very seriously, and not mlicaiously. You have some *very* serious issues going on in that head of yours, and it may be time to find someone who can help you with them...

Agreed and without malice.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

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Bugs, I understand your postion well, and I partially share it - but you have failed (and continue to, sadly) to offer a valid and realistic alternative to abortion!

Until that happens, we need to concern ourselves with the reality of the situation.

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Bugs, I am still waiting for a reply from you on this point.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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I'm encouraged to see several posters here opposed to late term abortions.

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I think most people advocating abortion would agree on this. Except maybe in cases like Dio suggests and similar situations:

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In my case, were I father to a child and in the 9th month was told the mother will die if the child comes to term (for whatever reason) I would reluctantly opt to save the mother. Very likely she could concieve again.

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Another point. Aside from the rabid folks Bug likes to quote, I believe few people advocate abortions. I believe, they as I, merely fight for the right for the woman to make and have the choice.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

I agree with Diegenes last statement. I don't think you will find people who are pro-abortion (although anti-abortionists claim this). You find people pro-choice. They want to give people the right to choose for themselves.

Bugs also mentioned some areas that there are laws that affect the individuals right to choose. I think drug laws is the one that stands out here. I also believe that drugs should be legal. It is another pro-choice issue. People have the right to choose what they wish to do with their own bodies, their own property, etc,.

While we have laws that limit peoples personal freedoms, this does not make these laws proper or correct.

Some of the other areas that you touch on are not person choice issues, but issues that have ramification on others. If you steal from someone you directly affect someone else.

I believe that personal choice is always good, and the good laws are the ones that allow people to continue to make their own decisions that can affect them both in positive and negitive ways.

Dan @ Code Town

Good sum up WM.

Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
Isaac Asimov
US science fiction novelist & scholar (1920 - 1992)

Right on WM. Choice is important. Unfortunately, there is no choice for the unborn child as to whether it lives or not. I know that sometimes children are unwanted. Historically those children were either aborted or left for wild animals to eat or some other cruel form of destroying a life. In an ideal world unwanted children would be matched with persons or places in need of children. That would eliminate the need and guilt of abortion if the child could have a home where he or she would be cared for. I think that if those who are pro-life want to attack this abortion issue, they should attack the cause, not the symptoms. They should try and create a good enough program that would eliminate the need for abortion. However, if there is a need for abortion, there will always be abortion. It has been going on for at least the past 2000 years, and will continue for the next 2000 if something is not done to stop it.

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

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Unfortunately, there is no choice for the unborn child as to whether it lives or not.

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Of course there is. The Mother makes that choice, and bears the consequences thereof.

Or are you suggesting that the unborn have a voice and can make it known?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

WS is correct, but James also makes a very good point.

Were more effort put to alleviate the root cause you would not have this issue. However it is much easier to stand outside of a planned parent hood calling the people walking into it sinners and murderers, and to yell and screem at those entering.

What can be done.

1. Understand that people are going to have sex, and they will do it unwed, try to make sure it is not unprepared
2. Offer education toward making sure all sex is safe, and provide condoms to everyone, everywhere free of charge
3. Change the ideal that being unwed and pregnant is evil
4. Offer no-hassel alternatives for those who will carry to term and then give the baby up for adoption

If you change from harassing people to helping them you will find much better gains in your "battle"

Dan @ Code Town

^ A-men!

As I pointed out before, should the Pro-Lifers offer a solid, realistic alternative, I'm sure that the majority of Abortions would become a thing of the past.

But they cannot.

So, in essence, they make the situation worse, not better.

I was always taught that if you are going to bitch and complain about something, you damn well better have a better (and workable, realistic) way of doing whatever it is you are bitching and complaining about. Otherwise, you should hold your peace.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Not that I believe in the neccessity, or legality, or morality, of this, but:

What about the rights of a father? Is the embryo/fetus not half his, although it resides in the mother? Or is this a slippery-slope argument akin to "What's wrong with white pride?"

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cfb said:

What about the rights of a father? Is the embryo/fetus not half his, although it resides in the mother? Or is this a slippery-slope argument akin to "What's wrong with white pride?"

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I wouldn't say that it is akin to that issue, but....it is a bit of a 'slippery slope'.

In a 'normal' healthy relationship, you should be able to expect that the father's rights and the father's feelings and involvment should be considered.

The problem with making that a legal issue is that there are so many circumstances that are not in any way normal or healthy, and forcing a woman to abide by the decision of a man who has abused her (or who for any number of other reasons has no right to have much say, if any) is fairly close to the height of inhumane.

Bottom line really *is* that it is insider her, and not inside him...

cfb

It still gets back to whose body is it.

I'm from the camp that believes the day men can get pregnant abortion won't even be up for discussion except in defense department spending estimates.

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I'm from the camp that believes the day men can get pregnant abortion won't even be up for discussion except in defense department spending estimates.

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I can agree with that!

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

The father has no rights.

A man who does not wish a woman to have an abortion should have made sure that the woman would not decide to have an abortion before the man chose to have sex with the woman.


If the woman decides to have an abortion it is her body and her choice.

The father should not be having sex with a woman whom he does not have intimate knowledge of her decisions relating to the action, and if he does not have this information he is definately not the person that should be exerting any kind of control over the woman's choices.

Dan @ Code Town

Generally, I agree that abortion should be legal, at any stage before birth, I do have a few questions, which WM, seems to have helped me ouot;

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WarMage said:The father has no rights.

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Agreed. Only AFTER the child is born, does the "FATHER" have rights. Right after he PAYS of course.

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WarMage said:If the woman decides to have an abortion it is her body and her choice.

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Here's the crux for me. The woman can decide to allow the birth of the child, knowing full well that the FATHER will have to monetarily support the child! If the decision for a completed birth is the decision, then add us FATHERS into that original decision.

Or support the child your dam self!

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

It is not about the child, Zynx. It is about a woman's right to choose.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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WebShaman said:It is not about the child, Zynx. It is about a woman's right to choose.

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WS I agree that government should not force a woman to do what THEY wish. Now more than every it is the christian strongarm lobby, that is behind the changing of R.V.W. that I oppose.

Yet for the sake of argument,.......................................Who decides for the child?

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" The noblest pleasure is the joy of understanding, and being understood. "

The Mother, since it is her body.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles