Topic awaiting preservation: Govenment debate question (Page 1 of 1)

In our recent government debate we were arguing whether torture should or should not be used against "alleged terrorists" like it is at Guantanamo Bay and Abu Graib (sp?). In it, the question came up, why did the terrorists of 9/11 attack the US? Not "Why didn't we stop it," but "What was their motivation?" Our government teacher thinks that question might lead to some answers on how to solve the terrorist attackes or at least slow them down. Any thoughts?

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

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James02 said:

Abu Graib (sp?)

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James02 said:

In it, the question came up, why did the terrorists of 9/11 attack the US? Not "Why didn't we stop it," but "What was their motivation?" Our government teacher thinks that question might lead to some answers on how to solve the terrorist attackes or at least slow them down. Any thoughts?

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Why? Because the US has a long history of doing some pretty crappy & stupid things. Yes, if we stopped now it might solve the primary problem of terrorism in the US, but not anytime soon (maybe after a few decades).

(Edited by reisio on 11-17-2005 04:09)

Why did it happen?

To answer that, one has to take a look at the world closely and examine history.

Much of what is now going on in the world is the "fallout" from the Cold War. The Cold War was a very dirty, no-holds-barred series of checks and conflicts between the Western World and the Soviet Block Countries and their allies. Since both were morethan ready to reduce one another to atomic ashes, and both were more than aware of this, the conflicts and checks were waged through "covert" actions, 3rd world countries, and through 3rd, 4th, and 5th parties, to dis-associate the actual connections to the source - the west and the East.

A cat and mouse game, that the West eventually won. And now we are dealing with the mess that was caused and left-over from all that. In essence, we created Bin Laden. We supported him and trained him and the Mujhadeen in Afghanistan during the Soviet occupation. Our ties with the Soudi Pinces because of the Oil there certainly didn't help matters (because we support the Saudi Princes).

Much of the conflict and territorial disputes in the Middle East are also to be laid at the feet of the West. It all depends on how far back one wishes to go, but avoiding the religious conflict for the moment, one can go back to British Rule in the region, and how the British "carved up" the area into different "lands". Most of these lands did not have anything whatsoever to do with traditional boundries, or with the different populations and cultrues there at that time. That of course led to conflict, and remains a source of one to this day.

The conflict between Israel and Palastine, for example. I'm not about to go into the specific details here (one could write a book on it - and has been, many times), suffice it to say, that irregardless of which side one takes, there are consequences thereof. Historically, the US has staunchly supported Israel, irregardless (at least officially and on the surface). That has won the US enemies in the region.

So, why did Al Qaida and Bin Laden attack the soil of the US? To demonstrate that they could, that we, the most powerful land in the world was vulnerable (and therefore anyone was), and to catapult their organization from small time into the Big Leagues of international Politics and Terrorism. That is political clout, and "real" power.

Now, I'm not all that sure that Bin Laden is very aware of history. Because history shows that attacking America on its own soil is a very bad idea. All that have tried it before have been soundly defeated. I have no doubt that should we turn our full attention BACK to where it should be (Al Qaida and Bin Laden), that we would have caught him by now and have had Al Qaida totally dismantled. I guess we will have to wait until Mr. Bush is out of office, to persue the goal again of tracking Bin Laden down and finishing off his organization.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

So are you saying that the deaths of soldiers from these "wars" against terrorist groups is indirectly our fault? That because of our involvement of feeding these organizations in the past, we have made them powerful enough to contend with us? But if we did give Osama and Al Qaida all their power, why then did they decide to expend it on us? As you pointed out, you would think that if Osama had any historical (and even logical) sense, he wouldn't attack the US. Why did he to show his might? Why America? Is it just a case of the dog bitting the hand of the one who feeds it, or is there something else there?

"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD

Cause and effect, surely, although we did not "force" anyone to attack us.

That needs to be made distinctly clear.

Because of our involvement, training, support and instigation. Then, after the threat was over (The Soviets left Afghanistan, remember?), we dropped Bin Laden and his organization, and the Mujhadeen like hot potatoes. It really reminds me of events that led up to the Vietnam War. The US has a really bad track record in such, and it seems that we still haven't learned our lesson, even though we continually get taught better to our sorrow.

Namely, it is arrogance and carelessness. The "tools" served their purpose, and we no longer need them. So throw them away, and on to other things.

Well, thinking "tools" don't tend to forget, and don't particularly enjoy such treatment.

But back to Bin Laden. What does he want? Well, one has to examine both his message, and his actions to determine that. And even then, only Bin Laden himself really knows. Is he truly a religious fanatic? Or is he more interested in something else? What could have possibly motivated him to attack us like that, especailly on our own soil? And what did he hope to gain by that?

Quite frankly, I have to say that up to this point, his plan has worked very, very well. He is still alive, still recruiting, Al Qaida is getting stronger (not weaker), Iraq has proved to be a new breeding and recruiting ground, things in Afghanistan are looking better for him, Al Qaida and the Taliban as they were two years ago, and it is spreading out globally. The amount of power (I mean real power, not illusionary) that Bin Laden and Al Qaida gained through their actions is huge. I don't think it is possible for most of us to truly understand the length and breadth of the support that they now have among many Muslem countries and among those in the 3rd world.

I am personally shocked and appalled at the lack of tenacity and pursuit that Mr. Bush and the American People have shown here. Somehow, Mr. Bush managed to use the energy and diverted it into Iraq (which is now such a morass and failure, that it is pathetic). As Iraq has taken on more and more of a "front seat" in American politics (and Afghanistan and Bin Laden and Al Qaida more and more a backseat), I can only shake my head in disbelief.

I am also shocked and dismayed that Great Britain and Spain have not diverted all their energies into tracking down Bin Laden and Al Qaida after the attacks on their soil. It is not like they have anything else more pressing to do at the moment.

Be that all as it may, I still believe that the heart of America is still beating, and that after we throw Mr. Bush and the rest of the right-winged cronies and Neo-cons out on their asses in the next elections, that things will then look much better. It is my great hope that then things will start getting concentrated on, that need to be concentrated on and Bin Laden and Al Qaida will finally be brought to justice and put to an end.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Reread 1984.

They lied about WMD, they lied about Iraq, why doesn't anyone think they lied about Bin Laden?

With an attack of that magnitude there must have been a plan about the victory at the end. Where was all the dancing and singing? Who was drinking champaign? I see a lot of military stakeholders being really happy with the current situation, especially following an economy in rapid decline.

Dan @ Code Town