Topic awaiting preservation: @kimson, bringing that debate to the public?

Or, better yet, having a public version vs a private version of the debate? One that involves many people and theyre own private experiences
without unveiling our "little secret"?

The benefits? Aside the different points of view, it's easier than the random msn sessions I can afford, and quite frankly, while constructive criticism is welcome, I have a point, a solid one,
and want to defend it.

But it could get messy and drift...
So it's all up to you.

AND, I have nothing to hide (but I enjoy our little secret, it's fun).

not so much a secret anymore

So give your version, please, I'd be glad to hear it.

all I know is what you wrote above, which looks like an attempt to bring something private into the public, possibly against the will of the other party? your original post is more suitable to an email message if that's the case.

Well, the problem is, it's an extremely interesting topic to me. I am not doing anything against her will, we've been talking a lot lately,
and we had a polite and honest argument about something that... is controversial, and fascinating.

(at least I do think so).

Plus the msn issue is real, I feel "accused" and would love to be able to react rapidly and share.. things that hard to understand and extremely hard to accept to many.

(Edited by _Mauro on 12-21-2005 22:43)

Ah, and for several reasons, I don't think the original post was suitable for email: the topic is obviously related to feelings, emotions,
and the inertia of privey email makes it lose a lot. It "works" as a real live debate in essence.

Finally, she still is free to say stop: nothing has really been unveiled so far.

And she also is free to kick my rear if she feels I've done something stupid here, we're used to kicking each other's rear at times.
But I strongly think she'll understand, and understand that no harm has been made so far.
Plus the topic IS fascinating.

Your fascination with the anal dwelling penquin and how it gets out each year to go skiing... MUST STOP! How it gets back in.. is much more fascinating.

Mauro, I suggest you either put up a real topic - something a debate can be held, without implying any one who you might have already talked about the topic you wish to discuss, or you drop it.

Playing guessing games ala 'what could this be about' is not fun for most people around.

so long,

->Tyberius Prime

I am afraid they are right, this is certainly not the approach to take if you want a public debate. I am open to discuss the topic openly obviously, and have nothing to hide either, but have the feeling I am being involved in a "secret conspiracy" against my will.
I am not sure I enjoy that "little secret" anymore, this is not the kind of attitude I have anymore, if I ever have (you would probably be surprised how straightforward I am now: I open my gob) and to be honest, if you want a real debate, you will have to explain what happened between this point and this point ; so that they can understand why I reacted the way I did last evening. If this is what you want to talk about

In brief, I am not getting the hump because of the nature of this debate, but because of the way you bring it on: it is not fair to me, I do not act like this; besides, this little game does not seem interesting for anybody, and being implicitly involved in this very game feels really uncomfortable to me.

But hey, what's your name again? Mauro "Provocation" C. ?

I leave it all to you now,

cheers :-)

(Edited by kimson on 12-22-2005 11:01)

quote:

---

Playing guessing games ala 'what could this be about' is not fun for most people around.

---

It's sad, sad, and sad, because from my point of view, it really makes sense to "take the temperature" before
dropping a bomb about how the human psyche works, and how emotions work.

You want a real topic? Well, this could have been called "dynamics of attraction and success", and could
have brought light into many many hard to explain things, situations, reactions, etc.

Could have brought this, and practicle solutions to enhance one's self confidence and overcome one's inner fears.

Another reason it had not to involve only kimson: many people could benefit of this truth. But they have to want it to be ready to accept it.

So no, I don't think they are right darling kimson, the little riddle above and the hostile reaction, borderlining insults as usual from TP, demonstrates, again, that they lack the curiosity, or open-mindedness, to try and understand, and that's what makes this discussion pointless, not the fact that it started.

Besides, kimson, I am deeply disappointed at your reactions regarding this whole issue, but this can be pursued, or not, via email, I have nothing to learn on the topic, I wanted to give. Wether you qualify or not to receive is really up to you.

quote:

---

(you would probably be surprised how straightforward I am now: I open my gob)

---

Straightforward as in hiding your real identity for months? No, I am afraid you'll have a hard time at trying to surprise me in a positive way.

Back to your regularly scheduled "Bush vs the world" or "Is there a dog" topics.



Oh, and, what does provocation have to do with expressing my opinion? Use that "gob" wisely, will ya?

(Edited by _Mauro on 12-22-2005 12:42)

Alright, here is my attempt to cool things down, because I think it is worth it.

Mauro, a few months ago, some coincidence got us to talk to each other again. This happened after over two years separation, one year of which I must admit I suffered like hell trying to recompose myself for two reason:

a) I had lost first love
b) I was hurt, very deeply hurt

I got on with my life though obviously, like one would expect anybody else to do. And here you come into my life again, thankfully for me to discover that you have been a long way, and sorted out many, many things with yourself and your life. I find a friend in someone I thought I had lost and feel much better for this, as I had never completely got over this relationship. We get to talk about things and others, funny or serious, and I do enjoy it. You are and will always be someone very clever and supportive, open minded, funny and pro-active.

Now for the first time since we split up, we do not agree on something at all this week, which is not an issue to me whatsoever, but you seem to explain my reaction this morning with my different point of view... I mentioned the fact that I wanted to discuss the matter further, and in an adult way... only to find out this morning that you had brought the subject up on the Asylum; not that it really matters to me, but here is the situation, and tell me if I am wrong:


- We talk about the way you manage your relationships nowadays (in such a different way than you used to do). I am a bit surprised about your changing your mind about some relationship-related matters, but accept your point of view "a priori" and ask for further explanation; nothing is supposed to go wrong, as we have been going through a lot of talking recently and feel that I can finally express my feelings and opinion with you.

- At this point I have to leave work (and MSN), so we agree on talking about this later on.

- I come on the Asylum today to find out that you are opening the discussion about it (which is fine by me), but feel a bit betrayed by the fact that:

a) you open a thread in a way that is implying my consent although I never gave it
b) you put me in a situation which gives me very little margin to express myself about the real topic and in which I will almost inevitably have to expose some facts about me which I would have felt much more comfortable discussing with you only.
c) Besides, you put me in your shadow, but surely you'll understand why I don't want to say too much about this.

- You give everybody absolutely no chance to understand what you're on about and feel that they are morons not to give you a chance to express yourself. This is where you are out of reality: people are enough open-minded here to welcome any topic, you just need to introduce it! It absolutely pointless to "take the temperature" when there is.. nothing to take the temperature of!
You wanted to give us a warning about the fact that you wanted to open a debate that we discussed privately beforehand, that's fine, but provide us with the meet to chew in then!


Now I think you've been doing really well and am truly proud of what you've achieved recently (you care or not, that's up to you), knowing about things or people who could have (and probably have) been messing up with your life. You decided to protect yourself, that is just right. I say well done to this, and I am sure some people could benefit of some of your findings on this, even myself, so go for it.


Expose your point of you and open the debate.

[edit]

There are a few things I forgot to mention:

quote:

---

_Mauro said:

Straightforward as in hiding your real identity for months?

---

To answer this, as far as I was concerned, before talking to you again, you were the man who had manipulated me for over two years, using phrases like "I am very disappointed with you" or " I thought you were more intelligent than this", or "you are being very small minded and striking low"... Rings any bell? Hence the "like in the old times" I miserably got out an hour ago on MSN; which was not very fine, I agree, but I felt that old feeling again... I defend myself too.

quote:

---

No, I am afraid you'll have a hard time at trying to surprise me in a positive way.

---

Thank you very much for this one. I am not being bitter but trying to be constructive. Take it or leave it. You know what I am worth and I know what you are worth. I opened myself to you again in spite of everything, I can hardly do more than that.

[/edit]

(Edited by kimson on 12-22-2005 14:12)

i'm with Ini on this one, my mother always used to say

quote:

---

If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all

---

If peeps don't really want to have this topic then they don't need to read it or comment in it, and I am so very tired of 'Is there a Bush' and 'Dog Vs ID' that continue to propgate this board.

That is why I am urging Mauro to share his topic with us, so we can get on with the discussion, as I know for a fact it may well be very interesting.

Come on, don't snub us now!

Ah.. here is my lovely and brilliant kimson again. I'll be back at you shortly, am still at work for the moment.

dude, you're the most manipulative person I know

~sigh, by saying this, JKMabry, not only do you deprive kimson, who knows me very well, of the right of accepting this debate or not and DEFENDING herself or not,
but you totally kill the whole point before it is even exposed, AND you do deprive me of the right to express myself.

You're lacking respect to her AND me, and spoiling the discussion at the moment it was about to start making sense.
Did you read her call for protection against me? Or did you read her call for the follow-up?

Please, if you have only negativity to add, stay away and watch.
Or if you have what it takes to turn your agressivity into something meaningful and useful, do it now.

---

Darling, I've got what I could read of your message before stumbling into the idiocy above. I hope and think you'll understand what follows:
- I owe you an apology, but betrayal wasn't what I meant. See how JK reacts? My point is about real social dynamics and all the other things I mentionned above,
it's not localised to our relationship, it touches a variety of other topics ranging from extremely advanced psychology to real world applications of what I found out.
It goes far beyond the boundaries of "how and why I handle my girls".

- See how the guy above reacts PRIOR to understanding, or even trying to hear? I needed someone with your bright mind AND who happens to be a woman,
AND happens to know me deeply to even try and make this goldmine of info public.

But due to reactions like this, it will have to go private again.
See, real social dynamics are a pain in the arse to explain because they touch extremely sensitive topics: they touch and cover inner beliefs, self confidence,
attraction, attraction in ALL domains, not only love or affairs, but work, sales, communication in general. They are the hardest thing to believe in,
and yet one of the most advanced set of concepts I have ever had in my hands.

It would have allowed me to answer all of your recent questions, including the ones about yourself and your current love,
AND have other people benefit of it.

You know how deeply honest I am, and I have always been that to you, during the years we spent together in real world.

He doesn't, he assumes I am a manipulative cunt prior to reading what I have to say.

---

This battle for sharing information is lost already.

(Edited by _Mauro on 12-22-2005 19:48)

Anyone else get the feeling they've walked in on a Lifetime Original halfway through?

quote:

---

Blaise said:

If peeps don't really want to have this topic ...

---

I don't believe any of us have actually been told what the topic is yet. So far, all I've heard is "I know something you don't know!"

Thanks Wes, I'll try again.

Actually, sales persons and other people know this well, and I am not an expert myself, I am just discovering it works.
Some call it "real social dynamics", and there are sites about this.
"Real social dynamics" would be the appropriate title to this thread.

It mainly focuses on the differences between "inconscious desires" and what happens on a more conscious level.

But let's relate it to your (and my) own experience(s), and real world stuff.

- Have you ever loved the qualities of a person, and failed to be attracted to that person?
- Have you ever lived the opposite, eg. being disgusted at the defects of a person, and yet feeling a deep attraction?
- Have you "felt" attracted to a person by the way he/she moved, looked at you?
- Have you ever wondered, at work, why that particular ass had his salaray raised?

Etc.

All the situations where logics would say "yes", but it keeps being a "no-no".
What I have figured out and tested is how attraction works.

Again, I am not an expert, but I've sorted out a great deal of what makes it work, and applied it to my own life.
This is NOT about manipulation, and that's where I have to defend myself against both kimmy and JK:
this is NOT about "playing tricks to get what you want", this is about solving your inner game in a way that will have you BE someone who gets what he wants.

This is not about lying, or lacking honesty to anyone.
Do you perceive hostility in kimson's talk? Do you perceive a weak, and easy to manipulate person?

Anyway, the concepts that MAKE attraction work are extremely difficult to accept, so I have to progress step by step.

Oh, kim, there is a difference between repeating these words to you on a regular basis and have them actually mean something:

I said it this time because that was how you made me feel when striking low, I said it because I hold you in high regard.
But I'd like this part of the debate to happen outside of the forum: you had your share of "guilt" in our breakup, I admitted mine when stepping back to you,
and stated I wanted respect between us. I don't expect you to understand your share of guilt or admit it, that's not my point AT ALL.

The great gap there is between how I reacted then and how I react now is that, back then, I kept things inside until they burst out of frustration, and in the form of a storm.
I am now adressing issues like this as they come, in order for it to NEVER REMAIN UNTOLD AND A SECRET PAIN.

So basically, you and I know how much consideration we have for each other, but your qualities will never be a reason for me to accept a lack of respect.
And the other way round: I am glad we could "kick each other's rear" today, specifically beacuse I don't want it to grow in a habit, I like you, period. Arguments happen,
and I want to sort them out when they come to you and me as soon as possible.

Back to our debate for today:

Real-social dynamics.

quote:

---

_Mauro said:

ot only do you deprive kimson, who knows me very well, of the right of accepting this debate or not and DEFENDING herself or not,
but you totally kill the whole point before it is even exposed, AND you do deprive me of the right to express myself.

---

Don't really give a rat's ass about the rest of this, but I feel the need to point out that nobody has deprived anyone of anything (except, perhaps, you depriving kimson of the right to keep this private [whether or not her wish was to keep it private aside]).

JK expressed himself.

How does him expressing himself deprive you of right of expressing yourself That's a very egocentric and incorrect way of looking at it.

FWIW.

DL, step back, re-read: I never wanted it to go that far, I wanted to adress the "you are a nasty bastard playing girls around"
accusation, NOT to unveil kim and I had been together, that was her choice, and a possible way for this thread to drift.
As I do not want to let it drift further, let's try to give it a direction, I'll adress your comment about JK either in a later post
or another thread, I WANT TO STOP THE PARALLEL ARGUMENTS NOW, I'll ignore them altogether and will keep them for later.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having many relationships at once is not about "protecting myself" and "running away" from something.
It's actually about the opposite, the total opposite.

It's about getting means to obtain what I want.
WITHOUT hurting or abusing other people.

Tell me, kim, do you like a man who is all over you, giving you gifts all the time, paying you compliments for no reason?
Do you prefer someone who is a challenge and surprises you? Who dares to say and do what others don't? Someone who is hard to get?

I was an insecure ASS trying to control you for the terror of having you hurt me.
Which eventually caused my fears to become true.

I am not that person anymore.

I am not lying to any of these three girls, at any point, nor giving up my life to stick to theirs.
I am NOT doing everything they want.
I am NOT abusing them or overcomitting.

To their inner instinct, and here we have a practicle example of real social dynamics, I am IN CHARGE. Of myself. Don't need ANYONE.
Therefore, dominating.
And therefore, ATTRACTIVE. I could be a 50cms tall chump, and with this mindset, I would still please them.

And while they know I frequent other girls, I cannot emphasize enough on the word PLEASING them: they like the fact I am attractive to others as well.
I do PLEASE these persons because I make them feel attraction.

They don't want something that "suffices", they want they thrill this kind of attitude gives them.
It's their choice, does not differ much of yours somehow..

But this whole stuff is not done on purpose: it's just that nowadays, wether I am right or wrong, I am myself, confident with myself, with perseverance (stuborn actually).
AND as I did with you, I am true to my commitment: I never cheated on you for instance, because that was my original commitment.

Anyway..

-------------------------------

To me, this was about faking a personality, vs having it today.
And that's where it relates to your recent questions.

Because for me it impacts a whole lot of relationships, is turning things upside down at work, and in all kinds of negociations.

AND it boils down to being vs faking, being "regardless of what other people think or say", "without willingly hurting anyone". These are the rules of thumb.
When I get "feely feely" to ANY of these girls, they get colder. They deeply don't want a feel/feely tender "girl"friend.

AND there are practicle and simple methods to achieve this.
What you want to do once you've established a steady inner game is ALL up to you.

What I want to do is select a worthy girl. Only a few girls have their stuff together, and I want to get to seduce and know a whole bunch.
For the sake of comparison, and adaptation.

(Edited by _Mauro on 12-22-2005 21:01)

DL, my view is that by saying this, JK doesn't take in account my point of view, doesn't listen to my version, and already takes a stance,
regardless of wether kimson exagerated things "a little" or not. That's depriving me.

She is able to "defend" herself, AND has done it, and would I be her, I wouldn't feel comfortable with someone trying to speak for me.
That's where I see the "depriving her".

For the rest, the private details didn't need to be exposed from the start, only the "what you do recently and how it makes me feel" side of it,
so as I said, let's stop the drifting.



(Edited by _Mauro on 12-22-2005 21:09)

quote:

---

_Mauro said:

DL, my view is that by saying this, JK doesn't take in account my point of view, doesn't listen to my version, and already takes a stance,regardless of wether kimson exagerated things "a little" or not.

---

Which is all completely irrelevant. He did not deprive anyone of the right to express themselves. He merely expressed himself. Whether he "sees your side" or any other such ego driven notion, has no bearing on what you said back to him, or about him.

You also make a huge leap from what he said, to what you took it as. That's on you...not on Jason.

As I said - I really couldn't care less about you and kimson, or who did or said what nonsense and so on.

But it's not a good sign when a person starts talking about their rights being infringed upon simply because someone posted an opinion...

^It's important to digest that.

FWIW

No, it's import to digest this:

There is a huge bias in such an early reaction from JK, methinks.
Plus a drift from my original intention, as unclear as it was.

Starting from that, and touching what I still think is a sensitive and tough thing to explain, there is a huge impact on what I can say afterwards.
Which is not desired for the consistence of a "tedious" thread.

Nor constructive at all.
----------------------------------

quote:

---

As I said - I really couldn't care less about you and kimson, or who did or said what nonsense and so on.

---

Me neither, I wholeheartedly agree.
----------------------------------
Another one where I slightly disagree, and see things from the other side of a thin line:

quote:

---

But it's not a good sign when a person starts talking about their rights being infringed upon simply because someone posted an opinion...

---

It's not an opinion as in "I appreciate this website", it's a directly targetted criticism which, by preceding any chance for me to "react" and assert my views,
is also a prejudice. In essence, such a prejudice doesn't belong in a phylo debate as I wanted this thread to grow into.

See the thin line?



(Edited by _Mauro on 12-22-2005 23:39)

This said, fuck it, I am tired of this thread, it sucks altogether, maybe badly started, but what I have got a grasp of recently is enjoyable,
and quite amazing when applied and related to psychology/sociology notions.
It is indeed so true it causes odd stuff to happen...
Stalkers, amazing encounters, users/customers who get touchy and emotional with you, your career taking off, all that k mentionned
about my recent successes turns around a bunch of simple notions, which boil down to trusting oneself and fixing one's inner fears.

It therefore revolves around the fact of being able to perceive one's own fears and eradicating them.
One hell of a skill.

Screw this altogether, really. Kim, if you want to talk, you know where to find me. If nobody gives a damn including you who feel uncomfortable for my first post, why should I?
Basically, you've turned a "too loosely open attempt at a debate" into the display of sour and strong feelings for or against me, where all I wanted was to discuss
the dynamics of human mind.

Ok, fine. I am off. nightnight.

quote:

---

_Mauro said:
There is a huge bias in such an early reaction from JK, methinks.

---

Which is, once again, totally irrelevant.
And you are still reading a great deal into the meaning you think is behind and beyond what he actually said.

~shrug~

I can't believe people get this involved in the doings of others.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

This is one odd thread.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 12-23-2005 07:32)

I don't like being called manpulative out of the semi-blue: firstly, it's not who I am.
Secondly, this whole thing didn't need to take that route: again, it has taken that route not only because of a bad start,
but namely, because of some people's prejudices and eagerness to STOOP IT... and because of kimson's obvious resentment
caused by.. wtf? If I am such a supportive friend and person NOW, why do you strongly emphasize on the negative side of PAST events?

It went from potentially interesting to nowhere.

Thankyous to the people involved in driving it that way.

I had said from the start it was difficult to explain, if I had given you "stuff to chew"at first, it would have sounded twice more like
a "look at me" thread.
I had said a while ago I didn't expect positive surprises from kim past a point... this was merely an opinion as well, and in fact,
I haven't been "disappointed". From being accused of playing girls, to trying to bring up this topic without relating it specifically to girls and me,
but to human beings and attraction, I now am not only a pompous fuck to the eyes of those who hated me already,
but also "manipulative".

Hell I don't give a fuck about their opinions, am I perfect, no? But it's also easy and low from you, kim, to play the "miserably wounded girl"
as if all I had done to you was trying to hurt you.

If I have to refer to those past events, you never declined a gift from me,
did not decline my proposals to get together, did not decline some pricey ring.
But when you accepted that particular thing, you had been considering leaving for a while, therefore lacking in honesty, therefore helping
the communication to go berzerk. Over several months.

The person who is hurt right now, and betrayed as well is me: you did exactly what you blamed me for earlier, eg. talking about the "wrong" private topic
on provocative purpose, and without my consense. I thought what we were trying to adress on MSN was me and my love life,
not kimson and _Mauro.

I'll label this whole stuff a misunderstanding for now as far as you are concerned, giving you the benefit of doubt.
But mentionning the fact you lacked a great deal of respect to me on this one.

So you do care? I do think so. Probably too much to get a detached enough point of view to understand me.
See? Not qualyfying to understand doesn't have anything to do with "being a moron", it relates to your predispositions to understand despite your internal biases.
There are a couple of things I haven't understood over the course of this UFT (unidentified flying thread), but it just sucks so much at this point.

I had been amazed at how deeply connected we still were, and at the fact we were able to discuss "everything" without problems.
Until you went on the warpath, and crossed the line of provocation you do like to cross as well.

----------------------------------------------------------

DL, since you do want to argue, and I have no problem with it: what JK said wasn't really constructive, at least you seem to be having a hard time
at spoiling that point. It wasn't bringing ANYTHING to a thread already "in danger".



(Edited by _Mauro on 12-23-2005 08:31)

The question is, why does it have to be aired here and what purpose could it possibly serve outside of the private realm?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

The relationship with her: in NOTHING, for NO REASON. Ask HER why she went on that way, not me.
The relationship with the others: NOTHING. Ask HER why she suggested it and blamed me for it in the first place.
The way to handle and perceive these many relationships, and what's going on in those ladies minds could HIGHLY help a lot of people
sort out their own relationship dynamics, and understand a bunch of handy concepts that apply to any negociation.

No, I have no interest in arguing whatsoever. I also have no interest in whether JK's post was "constructive" or not, or any of the other nonsense you keep posting about whether or not you're the 'bad guy' or whatever...

My singular wish is to address the point I raised:

quote:

---

by saying this, JKMabry, not only do you deprive kimson, who knows me very well, of the right of accepting this debate or not and DEFENDING herself or not,
but you totally kill the whole point before it is even exposed, AND you do deprive me of the right to express myself.

---

This is a terribly inaccurate and, frankly, a silly claim, and none of the things you have posted in reply change that fact.

Yadda-yadda-yadda. Merry Christmas, chill, and have a drink or ten.

I know I will! *hic*

I was thinking of having my testicles laminated but on my way to kinko's I ran into a little Jackass penguin who was trying to surf the rain overflow in the gutter. He was having a hard time because of the sheer volume of grass that was involved. Once we got past that however it became clear that we couldn't see through the street to the pipe that ran under the causeway so we got in the car and drove back to grandma's house.



.:[ Never resist a perfect moment ]:.

And when we got to grandma's house boy were we ever surprised. She'd cooked up her famous 'grass-stuffed jackass penquin.' But dessert this year wasn't up to what we've come to expect. The crust was almost like it had been laminated and what the filling was is still a mystery.

sheer volume of grass that was involved. <--