so hopefully i might ge some advice here, i'm in the middle of a mess, and excuse the teenage drama, bleh, nobody likes teenage drama.
except i can't figure out what to do.
back story:
girl (A) started dating boy (S) two years ago; after they had been dating a while S starting doing drugs (meth, heroin, coke) and ended up going to rehab. S starts getting emotionally abusive, but makes up for it each time with flowers, dinner, apologies, etcetera. S cheats on A, and blames her. In rehab S blames A for his drinking and drug problem, saying A isn't a very good girlfriend. BUT S and A "love" each other (about as much as teenagers can) and S gets off drugs, replacing then with a strong emotional attachment to A.
Fast-forward a year. I meet A, and S, A, and I all become good friends. A and S start fighting (as in, screaming fighting) but remain together, as she calls it, because she feels comfortable. But she's dissolusioned. S's parent moves to Nevada and calls A's dad to see if S can move in with her (a month ago). But A doesn't want to, and isn't consulted, because she wants to get away from S. He doesn't get this, and casually laughs off serious conversation about it.
Then A and I start seeing each other and fooling around, but decide not to have sex until she can work things over with S. She finally breaks it to him in a way he'll understand (I don't want to be with you anymore, at all, I want to move on) and S is devastated, crying, harrassing her, etcetera. She and I continue to see each other but S starts getting emotionally abusive and finally a bit physically abusive (not hitting her, but forceful). She came over to my house in tears (two nights ago), which is also common when they fight. The problem is, she can't just leave him because now he lives with her and doens't have anywhere else to stay.
the other problem is, S is a really nice guy otherwise, who's obviously been hurt. And I feel terrible about that, but on the other more selfish hand A and I want to develop a closer, more intimate relationaship (i hate the word dating) but can't because of S.
FUCK. Now I'm not sure why I used S and A instead of their names, paranoia I guess. But It's a sticky situation and I don't know how to resolve it. It's very stressful and I feel I can't back out (which I'd hate to do, but might help) because damage has already been done. I don't want to hurt S, and I don't want to hurt myself. I mean, yeah. I had somewhat the same problem as S (drug addiction, but not so severe) so I sympathize, because he obviously replaced that with her. It took me a long time to finally have coping skills or maturity of any kind, but I haven't recieved any good advice (my friends say: forget about him) (her friends don't want to take sides) (his friends call the house to tell her what a horrible person she is). fro the records, I'm 17, she's 16, he's 18.
I asked my Dad about it, but we don't get along and hardly ever talk, and his advice was pretty much crap. My counselor gave me better advice, which is that I should back out, but I don't really see how that's possible.
actually to clarify the reason this means something to me also is because until now I haven't ever been able to develop a meaninful relationship with people, holding them at arms length or using them. So I feel selfish about that.
Hum crazy. It seems that since (S) is 18, there is no reason why he shouldn't be on his own. Why does he have to live with (A)? That seems to be the first step that would have to happen before she can move on with her life. Why doesn't (A) approach her parents and say it isn't working out with (S) living there. Tell them he is causing her emotional problems, i image that would work. I don't really know what else you could do besides calling up Dr. Phil, but just thought I would mention that.
From: North Coast of America Insane since: Dec 2001
posted 03-18-2006 15:48
quote:actually to clarify the reason this means something to me also is because until now I haven't ever been able to develop a meaninful relationship with people, holding them at arms length or using them. So I feel selfish about that.
Seems to me that A has an attraction to guys who are unable to develop meaningful relationships. (Note the similarities between you and S.) Speaking from a history of that attraction myself, it's not a good sign for you, her or any sort of relationship.
Wish her well and move on. (This may take some doing because you seem to have already developed what's called an "enmeshed" relationship. Ask your therapist what that means and why it's not the best.)
Then, develop your relationship skills and find a girl who is attracted to good ones, rather than poor ones.
I don't think I've ever heard better advice, or heard it put better, Bruce.
As much as it might suck at the moment, cfb, I have to agree very strongly with Bruce.
I am a little confused as to the living situation, though, and it seems a conversation with *her* father about the fact that a man is living in his house who is abusing his daughter might be in order
quote: cfb said:
S is a really nice guy otherwise
On a sidenote, anytime you have to add the qualifier "otherwise", you are negating the statement. A "really nice guy" and a guy who is abusive are mutually exclusive things.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 03-19-2006 00:36
First of all, welcome to life.
Second, yup, move on. Why in the world would you want to throw yourself into that mess? From the way you are describing things, cfb, there is a heap of emotional baggage and disfunctional behavior, on both sides of the fence between S and A.
You need to seriously question your motives, IMHO.
This next question may come as a surprise, but just how many normal relationships have you been in, cfb?
I went through about...oh, say over 20 years of totally disfunctional relationships and behavior, before I was finally able to get my head screwed on straight. Lots of misery, pain, and denial on that path. I certainly wouldn't recommend it to anyone.
Find a girl that loves you for who you are, that you can love, that doesn't have a wheelbarrow of emotional baggage and dysfunctional behavior - not one that is coming from such a relationship.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
cfb - ditto to what bruce said. As hard as it is to walk away - it should be done. "A" needs to get away from S as fast a humanly possible, and then stay out of a relationship until she can learn to love herself. The damage that S is causing with his emotional abuse that will be very difficult for her to overcome. You may think you will help by being there for her in a "boyfriend" capacity, but that is the last thing she needs right now is the pressure of trying to live up to another man's expectations. Maybe a few years down the road after she's had a chance to become more emotionally independant and stable you can explore something further with her if the feelings are still there.
S may be a "really nice guy otherwise" but the things you describe him doing to this girl has a tendency to escalate into heavy duty physical abuse. He needs his own therapist to deal with his own insecurities and needs anger management tactics. Everything about this situation screams not cool. My brother was in a similar situation a couple of years ago with a girl and figured out very quickly that this was a situation to be avoided at all costs - especially after his "S" had just gotten out of a 90 day stint in jail for assault.
Just to add my voice to the chorus: get out while you can. You definitely don't want to be in this situation. I know that, from where you are (i.e., right in the middle of the storm), it can be hard to see a way out, but there is. It will just require a lot of self-control and cool-headed reasoning on your part. If you play this one by your emotions, you are going to get burned. It won't be easy, but getting out is what you need to do.
Yeah, I've questioned my motives plenty of times; I know also that one of the reasons I wish it would work is because I'm emotionally insecure and masked it for two years with other addictions. I guess people are addictions too.
I guess if I can give a little segue about myself, because of "my motives:" I wasn't addicted to heavy drugs but after a bad accident I got addicted to painkillers (vicodin, oxycontin, morphine) and started filtering the acetometaphine out of them, mixing them with some alcohol and drinking it like energy drinks to normalize myself. Probably half a bottle of vicodin a day, which was expensive too. But after those stopped working one of my friends told me to try heroin, and I did, OD'ed and got sent to a drug counselor. Funnily enough even though I was doing that, and some other drugs and dirnking, I never lost my GPA or was ever seriously intellectually threatened during debate in class, who knows why. But at least I stopped (got caught, I Guess) before things got worse and I fucked up completely.
But that was to mask the fact that until two yeras ago I was totally emotionally insecure and antisocial. I got "forced" out of it by people and "normalized" but never learned to cope because of some emotional damage. I don't really want sympathy for it, but until my last relatioship I'd never actually experienced "love" beyond having sex. That got ripped apart because I was emotionally distant and she cheated on me, so I left and had to reevaluate my life.
So maybe my motive is that I found someone I like ,and could really learn to love, and she feels the same.
So in that sense it's selfish. I dunno, I don't have "demands" as a "boyfriend" or even as a friend, I'm generally a pretty easy-going person. a "people pleaser" I guess.
He can't actually move out because that would entail dropping out of high school (he's a super-senior) and having to get a GEd, then not going to college (which he will in october). I mean, I feel bad for him.
I can't figure out how to walk out though. Because I see these people every day for two hours in class, and after school (because of scheduling). I'd still be in contact. He can't really "mvoe out," and I couldn't even be a friend to her, or him, and we both need that.
God, I feel immature writing that. I'm not really sure if I'm being naive, but maybe that's due to age. I don't feel I'm naive.
Bruce:
Yeah, I guess it's hard because this is the first "meaningful" relationship I've ever developed. We bot htalk openly and aren't gaurded around each other. I've never actuallyt experienced that before. I don't know how to give it up, because when I think about it I start shaking like I need a cigarette or something. Maybe it's an addiction? but that ties in with the "enmeshed" relationship.
Because I don't want to be fucked up for life. And I don't think people should experience something like this at our age? It just seems ridiculous.
But thank you all for the advice. I will think it over, it seems good and I respect the people here, especially given their age and life experience.
All relationships are selfish. All actions are selfish.
Before anything else, accept that.
The trick (in general) lies in balancing those selfish things in a way that makes you and the other person happy and healthy.
quote: cfb said:
and I couldn't even be a friend to her, or him
There nothing wrong with being able to admit that. The problem comes when you *can't* admit that.
quote: cfb said:
He can't actually move out because...
Anything following that "because" is COMPLETELY irrelevant. If he is living in someone's house, and is abusing a member of the family, nothing else matters. If he can't control himself where he is, *his* problems don't matter right now.
Imagine that this is your daughter. Imagine having a person living in your house that is abusing your daughter...
There is no time to feel bad for him. There is never time to feel bad for someone abusive while the abuse is going on - to even suggest so is frightening, and I hope very earnestly that you look specifically at that aspect of this problem before anything else. She doesn't need someone to talk to after these things happne, she needs them to stop happening.
One more reason to get out of this now is because, indirectly, you are enabling the abusive activity by your involvement here, and by your sympathy for him.
I hope you the best - it's not easy to be where you are.
Pursuing this now can only lead to bad experiences. Walking away now may open it up to a healthy outcome in the future, if it really is meant to be.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 03-19-2006 15:36
quote:There is never time to feel bad for someone abusive while the abuse is going on - to even suggest so is frightening, and I hope very earnestly that you look specifically at that aspect of this problem before anything else.
THAT is the core of the matter. Well said, DL.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods Insane since: Jan 2005
posted 03-20-2006 22:21
quote: cfb said:
so hopefully i might ge some advice here, i'm in the middle
of a mess, and excuse the teenage drama, bleh, nobody likes teenage
drama.
except i can't figure out what to do.
Well Hopefully I can help
quote:back story:
girl (A) started dating boy (S) two years ago; after they had been
dating a while S starting doing drugs (meth, heroin, coke) and ended up
going to rehab. S starts getting emotionally abusive,
Mistake # 1
quote:but makes up for
it each time with flowers, dinner, apologies, etcetera. S cheats on A,
and blames her.
Mistake # 2
quote:In rehab S blames A for his drinking and drug problem,
saying A isn't a very good girlfriend. BUT S and A "love" each other
(about as much as teenagers can)
I call it Chemically Confused Love
quote:and S gets off drugs, replacing then
with a strong emotional attachment to A.
Fast-forward a year. I meet A, and S, A, and I all become good friends.
A and S start fighting (as in, screaming fighting) but remain together,
as she calls it, because she feels comfortable.
Mistake # 3
quote:But she's
dissolusioned. S's parent moves to Nevada and calls A's dad to see if S
can move in with her (a month ago). But A doesn't want to,
But what Happend to the love
quote:and isn't
consulted, because she wants to get away from S.
Her Opinion doesn't matter when a Abusive Boy Friend is asking to live in HER House...Um..Ok
quote:He doesn't get this,
and casually laughs off serious conversation about it.
By My Definition... He Doesn't Love her...He Wants Her
If He loved her... he Would Do What would make her Happy... But that?s just how I view it
quote:Then A and I start seeing each other and fooling around, but decide not
to have sex until she can work things over with S.
O boy...
quote:She finally breaks
it to him in a way he'll understand (I don't want to be with you
anymore, at all, I want to move on)
The Dreaded Script Breakup (Script because its not them saying it [so to speak] Its just what everyone says... I e... It?s not you it?s me and so forth
quote:and S is devastated, crying,
harrassing her, etcetera.
Remember that Abuse... its coming back... Nice Guy...
quote:She and I continue to see each other but S
starts getting emotionally abusive and finally a bit physically abusive
(not hitting her, but forceful).
And She hasn't told here Parents Because???
quote:She came over to my house in tears
(two nights ago), which is also common when they fight. The problem is,
she can't just leave him because now he lives with her and doens't have
anywhere else to stay.
His Problem.. .Not Hers your Yours.... He wouldn?t be acting like that...well Shouldn?t be.. He is Just a Guest after all ( I know I could of worded this better)
quote:the other problem is, S is a really nice guy otherwise
Everyone (mostly) is and can be a Nice guy
quote:, who's obviously
been hurt.
I think they have a Pill for that... or therapy
quote:And I feel terrible about that
WHY?!?!
quote:, but on the other more
selfish hand A and I want to develop a closer, more intimate
relationaship (i hate the word dating) but can't because of S.
Well? There?s always Your House
quote:
FUCK. Now I'm not sure why I used S and A instead of their names,
paranoia I guess. But It's a sticky situation and I don't know how to
resolve it. It's very stressful and I feel I can't back out (which I'd
hate to do, but might help) because damage has already been done. I
don't want to hurt S, and I don't want to hurt myself.
Careful
quote:I mean, yeah. I
had somewhat the same problem as S (drug addiction, but not so severe)
so I sympathize, because he obviously replaced that with her. It took
me a long time to finally have coping skills or maturity of any kind,
but I haven't recieved any good advice (my friends say: forget about
him) (her friends don't want to take sides) (his friends call the house
to tell her what a horrible person she is). fro the records, I'm 17,
she's 16, he's 18.
18...Abusive? He could always Live in Prison (Harsh, But bit more Possible now)
quote:I asked my Dad about it, but we don't get along and hardly ever talk,
and his advice was pretty much crap. My counselor gave me better
advice, which is that I should back out, but I don't really see how
that's possible.
HA!... There?s a "Saying" My Mother tells me... Its ?Pick Your Battles"... You have already started and stair-ed (sp?) into the battle field? but ask your self... Is this really worth it.... Is this really worth the Possible Bad and Good that may come with this?
quote:actually to clarify the reason this means something to me also is
because until now I haven't ever been able to develop a meaninful
relationship with people, holding them at arms length or using them. So
I feel selfish about that.
(Edited by cfb on 03-18-2006 12:05)
(Edited by cfb on 03-18-2006 12:07)
-----------------------------------------------
quote: cfb said:
Web:
Yeah, I've questioned my motives plenty of times; I know also that one
of the reasons I wish it would work is because I'm emotionally insecure
and masked it for two years with other addictions. I guess people are
addictions too.
Masking does nothing... but Hide yourself... what you should do is try and fix
quote:I guess if I can give a little segue about myself, because of "my
motives:" I wasn't addicted to heavy drugs but after a bad accident I
got addicted to painkillers (vicodin, oxycontin, morphine) and started
filtering the acetometaphine out of them, mixing them with some alcohol
and drinking it like energy drinks to normalize myself. Probably half a
bottle of vicodin a day, which was expensive too. But after those
stopped working one of my friends told me to try heroin, and I did,
OD'ed and got sent to a drug counselor. Funnily enough even though I
was doing that, and some other drugs and dirnking, I never lost my GPA
or was ever seriously intellectually threatened during debate in class,
who knows why. But at least I stopped (got caught, I Guess) before
things got worse and I fucked up completely.
...
quote:But that was to mask the fact that until two yeras ago I was totally
emotionally insecure and antisocial. I got "forced" out of it by people
and "normalized" but never learned to cope because of some emotional
damage. I don't really want sympathy for it, but until my last
relatioship I'd never actually experienced "love" beyond having sex.
It wasn't love? it was Lust
quote:That got ripped apart because I was emotionally distant and she cheated
on me, so I left and had to reevaluate my life.
So maybe my motive is that I found someone I like ,and could really learn to love, and she feels the same.
This is possible...But be careful
quote:So in that sense it's selfish. I dunno, I don't have "demands" as a
"boyfriend" or even as a friend, I'm generally a pretty easy-going
person. a "people pleaser" I guess.
He can't actually move out because that would entail dropping out of
high school (he's a super-senior) and having to get a GEd, then not
going to college (which he will in october). I mean, I feel bad for him.
WHY!!... He Made his Choices... If he?s going to live at HER house and not let her LIVE her life... Heh... that?s not love... that?s.. Spite.. that?s....Sad...
[Quote[I can't figure out how to walk out though. Because I see
these people every day for two hours in class, and after school
(because of scheduling). I'd still be in contact.[/quote]
So?
quote:He can't really "mvoe
out," and I couldn't even be a friend to her, or him, and we both need
that.
Why?
quote:God, I feel immature writing that. I'm not really sure if I'm being naive, but maybe that's due to age. I don't feel I'm naive.
Go ahead... say Goo goo... It makes no matter....We..well.. I?m not the Judge.. Just the Observer...
quote:Bruce:
Yeah, I guess it's hard because this is the first "meaningful"
relationship I've ever developed. We bot htalk openly and aren't
gaurded around each other. I've never actuallyt experienced that
before. I don't know how to give it up, because when I think about it I
start shaking like I need a cigarette or something.
They have a Pill for that too.. and Gum.. and a Patch..
quote:Maybe it's an
addiction? but that ties in with the "enmeshed" relationship.
Because I don't want to be fucked up for life. And I don't think people
should experience something like this at our age? It just seems
ridiculous.
But thank you all for the advice. I will think it over, it seems good
and I respect the people here, especially given their age and life
experience.
(Edited by cfb on 03-19-2006 02:23)
...Some of my remarks may seem Harsh...
But they are very true.... and besides...
This (usually) isn't the last girl... there are others... and in time they may appear...
I?m Glad that you found some one... but at what risk...
I shall Be Waiting for your... Reply...
___---___---INSANEdrive---___---___
Note: Please Exsuse My Spamage with the Slimeys... I have a Reason for such (to tell another day)
-----------___________---------__________------
"There is no surer sign of insanity than trying the same thing repeatedly expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein
Thanks DL and Web, umm, I'm not exactly sure of what to make of Insane's comments...perplexing!
Well it's actually working out differently than I expected. We decided to be more friends than anything, and she talked to his counselor about anger issues. He's going through counseling for that now too. But she still doesn't want him living with him. She also laid it down for him: more yelling or physical abuse and he's moving out.
Also I found out one more interesting thing. The reason he isn't moving out. His mom is sending her dad $300 a month in "rent" money. Her dad (who is pretty...non-functional). He wants the money and doesn't want him to move out.
That is the single most f**ked up thing I have ever heard.
C'mon now, I'm sure you've heard far worse. I know I have.
It is, however, quite bad, and explains a great deal about her attraction to disfunctional relationships.
She needs to get out of that situation as soon as she reasonably can, and get away from both the boy and from her father. She needs to be careful that while she is doing this, she is not simply running headlong into yet anotehr disfunctional environment. That is the pattern, and if she doesn't break it now it will only become harder to do so in the future.
Seems what Web has for a signature says it all... We are the victims if we allow ourselves to be.
ITs easy to say she needs to break free but there maybe other issues that have not been brought to light...that make that difficult.. For sure good educated counseling is needed by all parties here.. I am not good at advice so I wish and hope for the best outcome.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 03-23-2006 23:22
As a father with a daughter that I have fought tooth and nail for, suffered for, and would do it again in a heartbeat, I find such behavior so abhorent, that it is difficult for me to formulate it into words.
Subjecting your own daughter to an abuser, for a couple hundred bucks a month.
At a loss for words.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods Insane since: Jan 2005
posted 03-24-2006 03:05
quote: WebShaman said:
As a father with a daughter that I have fought tooth and nail for, suffered for, and would do it again in a heartbeat, I find such behavior so abhorent, that it is difficult for me to formulate it into words.Subjecting your own daughter to an abuser, for a couple hundred bucks a month. At a loss for words.
I think I found them.... they were nasty little devils... so after Feeding them with love... I came up with this...
...Ahem...
Her Father is a Green Eyed Monster
-----------___________---------__________------
"There is no surer sign of insanity than trying the same thing repeatedly expecting different results."
-Albert Einstein
oh, well i guess the situation is resolving itself. but actually the advice really helped because I rather took it and we're on the track to becoming friends again.
we just decided to remain friends, or you know, as much as you can. but yeah, thanks guys. i hope this keeps looking upward.
yeah, her dad is actually worse than i described. last year we (S, A, I and some friends) drove to san francisco to see a concert, and were gone for a week during spring break. She didn't tell him and he wasn't even phased by it. WTF??? that's fucked up.
But anyways, he's getting counseling for his anger problems. Looking up. Yes,
haha, longest post ever. I bet that has to be one of the formal debate topics.
yeah insane, not the last girl. OBviously others and I don't seem to have a problem with that much anymore. Sucks that getting drunk all the time BECOMES your social skill instead of developing them. Ha. And have you ever even used nicotine gum? haha, worst thing in the world. It gives you the runs like nothing else, and hardly even works.
From: Therapy Department 117 :Skining and Mods Insane since: Jan 2005
posted 03-27-2006 20:35
quote: cfb said:
haha, longest post ever. I bet that has to be one of the formal debate topics.
If it isn't I would Like to see the one that is...
Medels are Shiny
quote:
yeah insane, not the last girl. OBviously others and I don't seem to
have a problem with that much anymore. Sucks that getting drunk all the
time BECOMES your social skill instead of developing them. Ha. And have
you ever even used nicotine gum? haha, worst thing in the world. It
gives you the runs like nothing else, and hardly even works.
I?m Clean.... Believe it or not...
Although the Moldy Pills I take seem to have an interfesting...er?Interesting? effect over my jejunum
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
There Is A Fine Line Between Genius and Insanity... I Have Erased this line
Being clean is the greatest feeling in the world. I kind of wonder what seperates teenage experimentation from actualy drug use. I think it's personality or something. After binging on speed and being constantly doped up I have a newfound respect for being clear-headed. Effects some people differently though. My uncle could do coke and drink every other day and be completely fine, and didn't even go through withdrawals when he quit. Then again I have friends who got addicted to "recreational" "oddball" drugs like pcp or dmt or ketamine.
I dunno though. That aside (not that anyone cares) the past one and a half years of my life have been the happiest I've ever experienced. Actuatlly quitting God was the most exciting and relieving experience. Somehow that seemed to be the primary barrier between myself and society. I'm finding myself a few years too late and making all the mistakes a normal highschooler makes a few years too late.
I just need to get that out. It's exhilerating. GAH. It reminds me of Daedelus' quote from Ulysses: "History is the nightmare from which I am trying to awaken." Actually my whole experience has affected me more than I thought. I used to consume history voraciously. I can't anymore. Can. Not. I used to think my college major would be european history/art, but the concept of studying the past is almost sickening to me. For whatever reason. That's obviously not a healthy intellectual paradigm, but I find more use in extroversion, literature, communication, and society now. !!!
posted 03-18-2006 12:02
Well Hopefully I can help
Mistake # 1
By My Definition... He Doesn't Love her...He Wants Her
The Dreaded Script Breakup (Script because its not them saying it [so to speak] Its just what everyone says... I e... It?s not you it?s me and so forth 
His Problem.. .Not Hers your Yours.... He wouldn?t be acting like that...well Shouldn?t be.. He is Just a Guest after all ( I know I could of worded this better)
Well? There?s always Your House 
___---___---INSANEdrive---___---___
