Ok, this probably is déjà-vu around here, but wtf? Psychic teleportation? New Quantum spaces.
This is amazing, but it kind of... ties plenty of things together.
I am referring here to "the cat is alive and dead at the same time".
Basically, the USAF have called for 7.5Million dollars to investigate psychic teleportation further.
And, somehow, to me, the fact they value psy powers makes sense.
Do I need more black pills? Is there a doctor around?
Hmm, looks interesting.
Let's say teleportation turns out to be possible in the Star Trek way. (Which, unfortunately, isn't discussed in the report.)
The Star Trek way: a person is disintegrated by a "beam" and stored in an electronic buffer and then later reassembled by another beam either on a different location or on the same spot, depending on the success of the transfer.
This raises a few questions...
Could people be "stored" in electronic buffers, and thus "skip" through time?
Everything stored electronically can be replicated (lol Star Trek reference...). That would mean I could create thousands of me in a matter of minutes simply by not flushing the buffer...
If I can create thousands of me, which one of them would be the "real" me?
If I would meet one of my clones, I'd know he'd not be "me" since I'm standing here, feeling exactly the same as I did before the beaming... I'd know I'm the real me since nothing says I'm not and everything says I am. The weird thing is, that also applies to him...
What's even weirder is, the same thing would apply if there were no clones and only one me. How do I know I'm the same person with the same soul (in lack of a better word) as before the beaming? Especially when knowing that there could have been 999 other me, all identical in body and mind.
TwoD, actually, one of their most "feasible" proposals sounds like the p-teleportation,
the one made by psychics.
And it strongly suggests extensions to the current quantum physics theory.
Lil' reminder or introduction to some quantum theories:
an element, any element, potentially holds different states simultaneously
and it is only upon measurement that the most probable state will be ..measured.
That's advanced physics, not Star Trek.
Basically, quantum physics and computing assess that (to strip an example down to it's core principles) when a cat is locked inside a box,
it is 50% dead, 50% alive, until measurement occurs. Eg. until someone takes a sneak peak
inside the box and finds the cat to be 100% alive or dead.
Quantum physics was introduced to explain things that classic physics could not, and it models reality from a point of view where
not only each thing depends on the existence of it's opposite (to be or not to be? 1 or 0?...), but exists ALONG it's opposite state, in different probabilities (qubits, 1 and 0 at the same time).
Psychics being able to teleport stuff in experimental conditions, under constraints, sounds like
some unmeasured physical notion allowing one to totally alter the set of probabilities behind a given measure.
Actually WS, check page 55: it is a report of psy-teleportation that works! And it's not about a light beam in quantum teleportation.
The light beam teleportation, aslo depicted in the above report, sounds ridiculous compared to living and electronic objects
disappearing from some place to reappear somewhere.... in controlled, experimental conditions!!
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 03-22-2006 22:25
Well...I don't know if it works, _Mauro. I see no Video, nor do I see any other scientists being allowed to attempt to reproduce the findings. There are references to video and other evidence, but nowhere in that document did I see any links to them.
That is not evidence.
It would be very interesting if true, however.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
The only thing is that, if I am not mistaken, this is a real usaf article, and it was on several very well known news channels..
Don't know if "USA today" is a reliable news channel, but lookie, and tell me: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-05-teleportation_x.htm
The only thing is that, if I am not mistaken, this is a real usaf article, and it was on several very well known news channels..Don't know if "USA today" is a reliable news channel, but lookie, and tell me: http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2004-11-05-teleportation_x.htm
Yes, but that says nothing as to the credibility of the report itself. The report is apparently being criticized by many physcists as nonsense. I beleive WS's point is that the content of the report, and not the news of the reports existence, is what is suspect.
After reading several pages about this, all I see are completely unvalidated claims that psychic teleportation is possible.
~yawn~
Write a report when there is something to report aside from the fact that you want millions of tax dollars to play with...
Interesting to see that the Air Force is studying such things, but the fact that it being studied doesn't mean that anything has been accomplished.
But... (I can't help playing the devil's advocate on this one)
The laser beam thing (a radio signal encoded in a laser which was teleported) was based on quantum entanglement.
Eg. the ability of particles to casually "leap through" other particles.
In other words, if you threw a rubber ball many*many*many*billion times at a wall, at some point, it would just "pass through" without affecting the wall.
This is one of the fundamentals of quantum physics, aka current physics.
Another one is that "nothing can be measured with a perfect accuracy". It can be demonstrated quite easilly.
...
So psychics using "unknown forces", when budgetted by the USAF and posted on a respectable scientifics association's website, sounds like
he didn't smoke crack prior to seeing it happen.
Of course, the need to justify such budgets is obvious, but p-teleportation, in his report, sounds the most convincing option, while he could have claimed
for a budget for researches on the laser beam thing.
quote:TwoD, actually, one of their most "feasible" proposals sounds like the p-teleportation,
the one made by psychics.
...
That's advanced physics, not Star Trek.
I was talking about sf-teleportation, which is quite different from p teleportation.
Mmmm, quantum entanglement... Half Life anyone? Btw, what did happen to that cat in the lab?
Oh , speaking about cats... I've heard the cat-in-box story before and I find it odd to think about it like that...
We know it's either dead or alive, but only one of them is true since it's only possible for it to be one of them, even if we know it or not. No matter how much we want it to be, there's never a potential that it will be both dead and alive at the same time, since that would contradict itself. Unless it's an undead cat...
Anyway, I think that example simplifies the problem a bit too much...
I don't think so: conceptually AND physically, the cat exists with both probabilities at any given time,
but one of the probabilities will become true only when it is measured.
I know it's odd, but some demonstrations based on photons have proved that a given photon can take loads of
trajectories simultaneously, and only reach one target when the measure occurs.
As if reality was deeply... "dreamish" and unstable, and that's what quantum physics are about.
More on this sometime soon.
Actually, for TwoD, quantum computing is about this: instead of bits which represent "1/0", true or false logics,
you get qubits, which represent "true, false, and both at the same time" (and quantum gates instead of logic gates). With a probability for each state.
The actual value is delivered when measuring.
I don't understand it all, just that it deeply relies on the fact everything holds it's contrary as a latent possibility, at any given time.
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 03-29-2006 17:37
The object is in both states. When a measurement is taken the quantum state collapses to one of the possible outcomes. These are the same theories that are used in quantum cryptography (current being used) and quantum computing (still being worked on, last I heard we were up to 7-qbits, but we need about 100 for anything useful). In the example of the ball going through the wall, you are talking about probabilities that are so remote that they are hardly worth discussing.
As for the artical discusses a whole lot of fringe ideas, and makes use of a lot of ideas and theories and technologies that do not even exist and might not ever exist. This artical reads like an attempt to make material ideas that are not even solid theoretically. Other than the idea on quantum entanglement based teleportation there is so much science lacking tha further research on these topics is foolish.
There is far too much basic science that still needs to be researched before we even begin to look at attempting to make a product (teleportation) out of them.
p-Teleportation is a topic in and of itself. It did not appear to have any theoretical backing to it and is largely based on a good deal of observed phenomina. This is great if you are planning on performing party tricks (such as was discussed in the artical) but far less useful when you are attempting to perform scientific research.
In my estimation this artical is purely science fiction. It has as much science as any of the SF novels on might read would have. It mentions just enough to caputure your imagination, but nothing even close to enough to create a useful device.
"Quantum Physics", or "Quantum Mechanics", both of which I know nothing about, seems to be quite a useful tool in today's age of "ALL things possible."
Think about it,..............................The idea's of yesteryears early scientists, took a theory and after much experimentation, created a factually proven technology.
So was "Quantum Physics", or "Quantum Mechanics", used during that time? And if not, what if they were! Would ALL scientific theories, THEN, be proven, before they were proven?
What I'm getting at is that, in today's "age of reason", is "Quantum Physics", or "Quantum Mechanics", THEE tool for determining "ALL things possible?"
The point of the ball through the ball is that reality is not what it looks like. At all. It is not a finite building of bricks we
can observe: such bricks exist, but theyre positions/states are unpredictable when you get to observing very very small phenomenons.
Mage, my point never was he is -oh so right- : but the USAF ordered that report, which gives him a bit of credibility,
and he sounds like someone who has witnessed those "party tricks".
Classic physics, for Zynx, were just a way to model and understand reality, but that model was not coherent
to explain some particular reactions/events.
Quantum physics is a "better model", and a huge slap in the face of physicists who thought everything could be quantified, measured,
weighed... Nowadays, cats can be alive and dead at the same time and balls can cross walls.
....
Basically, it's impossible to elaborate on the paper above and develop something from it, granted, but I consider the following points possible:
- that guy really has seen what he reports
- there could be unknown forces and physical laws, to enhance the current quantum theory and explain such phenomenons
Here is one scientifical fact for us geeks: in essence, we are only able to perceive what our eyes, ears, and mind captures.
Which is a biased, subjective perception of some elements of reality.
And doesn't allow to understand... anything: all our knowledge is a drop in the ocean.
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 03-31-2006 16:02
Mauro, all very true. I have to agree that money going towards this kind of research does make me happy. I would be even happier if I saw money going toward more basic research. When you spend money on discovering a product you will have trickle down into new knowledge of basic scientific principals. However when you study basic scientific principals you have the potensial of openning doors into products that people might have not thought possible before.
I am still not one hundred percent sold on some of the basic premises of quantum physics, and I do not believe that all of those who study it (and are infinately more versed in it, and and far more intelligent than I could even hope to be) are completely sold on it.
The basic premis of the duality of the quantum state is still debated. There are those that believe that the quantum is in a dual state until observed and then there is another (much smaller) camp that believes in a multi dimension universe theory (all states exist in different universes and we get one option when we measure something).
I believe that we are currently in a period of discovery with quantum physics much like the period of discovery of the properties of the atom. What was started was an interesting theory about particals floating in a goo, and what emerged was the concept of vacuum and electrons orbitting protons and neutrons.
I think there will be a great discovery about these largely unknown properties that will make people say "Oh, that makes a bit more sence" (it might be "Oh you crazy grad student get back to work tuning the laser" you never know).
My overall take is that science is constantly evolving and changing. You can not know with certanty what will happen in the next 10 or 20 years and it is very exciting. I believe we are lucky to be alive in a time of such great posibilities.
I don't think so: conceptually AND physically, the cat exists with both
probabilities at any given time,but one of the probabilities will become
true only when it is measured.I know it's odd, but some demonstrations
based on photons have proved that a given photon can take loads
oftrajectories simultaneously, and only reach one target when the measure
occurs.
Conceptually yes, physically no. The cat would know if it's dead or not :P
Seriously, yes it's a probability that the cat is dead/alive or a qubit is true/false, but it's not a physical possibility, if you see what I mean...
That's what I was trying to point out...
Hmm, can't find the right English words for it, not sure I can in Swedish either :lol:
From: Den Haag: The Royal Residence Insane since: Jul 2000
posted 04-02-2006 04:03
Yawn...
so let's go back to the old ways of wasting money:
-Create an "Philosophers stone" which can turn any material into gold.
-Create an vehicle which could drill through the earth from europe to australia
-Terraform mars and create a second earth.
.....
-Maybe we should resurrect the extinct unicorns through using modern gentechnology.
-Or let us finaly build that perpetuum mobile device which uses Perpetual Motion
All of these are nothing but scientists dreams, from different times bringing us different revolutions and resolutions but non of them are of any use.
.........................................................................
:: Develop yourself, develop your life, develop the world ::
.........................................................................
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 04-04-2006 17:02
For the cat example it should be noted that when you put the cat in the box you are also putting some poison in there (might help the analogy a bit).
There is often the question asked "If a tree falls in the woods and noone is around, does it make a sound?" The real question would be "If noone is around can a tree fall?" If noone is around this hypothetical tree is in a superposition of states. It is both standing and fallen. When someone observes this tree the super position collapses and it is either fallen or standing.
There is a good deal of wiggle room with complex examples such as a cat and a tree, but when you take it down to the partical level things become much easier to work with it is far easier to create a theory about the individual unit as opposed to working on a collection of units.
Now, the above is all a scientific theory. There is a lot of math and science behind it. But I still feel that there is something missing that will make all of this jell. At this point we still are having trouble measuring small objects, when you take a measurement you affect the object. The advances of quantum entanglement make this possible, but there is still work that needs to be done.
quote:
The cat is alive and dead at the same time, and no, that's not impossible, that's how it is.
Show me a cat that is both dead and alive at the same time and I'll believe you
Note that your quote says "to us", which basically mean it could be anyhting else, it's just the way it looks to us...
In my opinion, it's impossible for us to know if the cat is dead or not, because we'd need to measure it by opening the box. As long as the box stays closed, we can not say if it's dead or not, for we have no data to build our assumptions on. Yes, there is always the probability that the cat is both dead and alive, but to actually confirm it would be impossible, because our "measuring equipment" will only tell us if it is either dead or alive at that given moment. And to us it wouldn't really matter what state the cat is in when we don't observ it, since it's only during observation we would find a useful answer.
Meh, got myself confused again.
Anyway, discussions like this are fun, since none of us can really prove it's either this or that way. Or both at the same time for that matter...
Hey 2d, the discussion is fun, but my point has been proven already, not by me: quantum physics is based on experiences that work,
otherwise it would just be theory, like Mage pointed out. But it is not, and Mage is wrong on that.
It is not anymore, it has been acknowledged and accepted as "scientific fact", unlike p teleportation.
And this has been done something like.. 10 to 20 years ago!
Basically, wether there is poison or not in the box is pointless, and the fact an object always exists in all it's potential states
has been proven using photons.
Photons have been proven to travel two or more paths at the same time, and this condition
has impacted measures in experimental conditions: photons have therefore been "tested" as things that can exist
in several states, and travel several paths at the very same moment.
It doesn't even make sense to ask questions like "which state is the cat in when we don't observe it": it's a classic physics stance,
and you're trying to analyse something that is not classic physics.
In our quantum based universe, when nobody observes it, the cat is in both states (it really is) with a higher probability for one state
IF it comes to be measured.
And the cat is not "aware" of itself, so we can assume it's not able to measure it's own life quanta, making it a real "living-dead thing"
when it's inside the box, wether there is poison or not at all.
Some scientists explain this with a "multiverse" model: each time reality can fork, it does fork, but two parallel universes cannot interact with each other, and one option is more probable, until it gets measured, becomes fact and history.
----------------
Again, unlike p-teleport, quantum physics is NOT theory, it is FACT and has been for several years now.
To prove me wrong, you'd have to take apart the conclusions of several quantum experiments, maybe
get yourself a cyclotron, and show me another explanation to quantum entanglement, because wether you like it or not..
wether your mind is flexible enough to deal with it or not..
the cat is dead AND alive when it's inside the box.
The one thing I never understood about star trek teleportation is how they reserct the person on the other end. I have to think that disintigrating someone into the composite atoms would in effect, Kill them, wheter you intend to re-assemble them or not. Is my soul in limbo in the mean time? Could I travel forward through time just by inserting a delay before someone reassembles me? If I die and then am reassembled, will that still be me or a new me with all my old memories? More of a copy than a clone.
P-teleport sounds sooo totally more feasable though totally. =)
And what if a fly was to enter the teleportation beam as you're being disintegrated?
Oddly, my first internet nickname ever was brundle21 (aka brundlefly, aka Doc Brundle, aka "the Fly").
And one more coincidence... this thread is a spin-off of John Titor's ramblings, since the usaf paper
was linked to from the Titor vault.
quote:WarMage said: I believe we are lucky to be alive in a time of such great posibilities.
I agree! Yet who said that? I swear that's something I have heard before.
quote:Rinswind 2th said: All of these are nothing but scientists dreams, from different times
bringing us different revolutions and resolutions but non of them are of any use.
I disagree.
At one time there was this scientist who postulated the "idea/dream" that there were these very very small things that cause people to get sick. And even of a few of them can cause people to die. Yet they can not be seen by the naked eye. A.k.a. Germs.
posted 03-21-2006 23:21
