Yes!!!!
Great news.
Read another article where in the state of Mass they are going to try to reverse the courts ruling and let the people vote on deciding the issue on same sex marriages.
From: somewhere in the great indoors Insane since: Sep 2002
posted 07-07-2006 18:38
jade:
What do you have against other people having happy/secure lives? How does their choice of who to love and build a life with effect you, and why should you (or any of us) have a say in the choices they make about their personal lives?
If you and the others like you, who are so dead set against homosexuals having the same rights as the rest of us get your way, what will society have gained, other than a large group of people who are not given the same respect and legal rights as everyone else?
Important note: this vote was not a decision against gay marriage. The decision simply stated that a banning of gay marriage did not contradict the state's constitution.
quote:
...and that it was up to the State Legislature, not the courts, to decide whether it should be changed.
01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans. "
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 07-08-2006 05:38
Me thinks you're nothing but a muckraker Mr. DL-44.
___________________________________________________________________________
You'll never have to think outside the box if you don't get in the damn box in the first place.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 07-08-2006 17:28
Since my guild just went through the whole "gays shouldn't get married" debate on our boards, I figured I'd repost my most appropriate response on that thread here, since it does apply as well. The first paragraph is in response to someone saying that gays were trying to be covert in getting the marriage agenda passed:
quote:Actually, they aren't being covert about it at all. They want a legal union to be available to them. The "traditional" term used is marriage, whether or not you associate any religious connotations to it. A civil union presided upon by a justice of the courts is still called a marriage. No church or religious doctrine is involved.
Gays what the right to a civil union, that legal piece of paper that traditionally signifies what is called marriage. Everyone who has gotten legally married is required to have one of those little pieces of paper in order to be recognized as legally married by the state. Whether or not you have that paper signed in the presence of a clerk of the courts, a pastor or a priest, it is still required that you have that document in order that the marriage be legal. Hence, the state is in the business of legislating marriage at some level. That takes it out of the hands of religion and puts it into the hands of the courts.
Marriage is the commonly used word to describe this occurance. It has been disassociated from religious connotations for quite some time now, since this state of being can be achieved without the participation of any church. Now, if the courts stopped issuing or requiring marriage certificates and allowing only religious institutions to determine if someone was married or not, then there would be a hodge-podge of rules and people might end up being considered as married in one denomination, while another doesn't accept the marriage as legal until it is performed in their faith. As it is now, the baseline of acceptance is by the states, the religious institutions have the right to accept or not accept any marriage as valid, but they don't control the benefits derived from the state of being married, the states do.
That little piece of paper - the marriage certificate - is what gives your significant other the legal ability to many things, including inherit, have power of attorney, make medical decisions and be at your bedside, etc. without having to have special provisions laid out otherwise.
Marriage is the union of two people that love each other. It shouldn't matter what gender they are. In fact, with the examples of straight marriage out there, I'm surprised anyone wants to get married in the first place. Gays aren't "ruining" marriage. Heterosexuals are doing a fine job of that all on their own.
Another thought that came to me as I was rereading this - Gays aren't beating down the doors to get married in churches afaik. They simply want legal unions (as I already mentioned, what is traditionally called marriage whether is it performed before a judge or a religious official) to be available to them as it is to everyone else.
Jade, ask youself a question and answer honestly. WWJD? Perhaps you think he would use the corrupt judicial and legaslative systems to force others to behave as he wills, but then that would negate the concept of free-will, wouldn't it?
You have to let people make their own decisions and lead their own lives, for better or worse, regardles of your emotional knee-jerk responses and the war-crys of self-proclaimed church leaders. To ask the government to act on your behalf to force others to comply with your beliefs is to me about as anti-Chrisitian, as you can get. The message and philosophy of Christ was about love, not hate and force. This ignorance has been the cause, or at least the excuse, for most of the conflicts throughout human history.
That aside, as you know I used to be against gay marriage for the same reason, because it did not jive with my faith and what I was raised to believe, then I came to understand something called "freedom," how fragile it is, and how to actually work it must be all inclusive. Live and let live.
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 07-08-2006 20:13
Jade, WS is probabaly right. Same Sex marriage is most likely going to succeed in America. The only thing is that it hasn't yet. The government of America is supposed to be by the people of America, and since most people in America don't want same sex marriages yet, then there aren't going to be any laws passed. I hope that will continue to be the case, but because of television propaganda, those kinds of things are going to start happening. We need to face the fact that our society is going down the crapper. Science may be having break throughs, but when divorce is 50% or so, and we have teen suicide, teen sex, drugs and alcohol rampant, the only thing we can do is try to stop it. Sure we need to pray, but we also have to take an active role as Christians to try and help each other. The only problem is finding a way to go to others with counseling instead of waiting for them to come to us. How is that accomplished without offending someone or stripping them of their rights? I think this whole country is a tangled mess of politics.
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
quote:
If gays are being married it cheapens the whole concept of marriage! Marriage is about the sacred union between a man who works 60 hours a week in the mines and his battered, submissive wife who makes him sandwiches and babies
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 07-10-2006 03:24
Perhaps, but remember that this government is an embodiment of its people, or at least is supposed to be. The government isn't there to be an advocate for the minorities, but there to allow equality.
Besides, looking at the other side of the glass...how do I say this?
If gay couples tell the government what to do, how are they any differen't from the "religious right"? The government is supposed to be for the will of the people, right? But if the will of the people is that marriage is to be defined one way, why should the government be forced to ratify something against its will?
I'm not saying homosexuals shouldn't get married, but I find it hypocritical to me that they want to force their opinion and will on others.
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
From: Rochester, New York, USA Insane since: May 2000
posted 07-10-2006 04:50
What they are trying to force is equal rights. They are trying to force the government that same thing that others are able to enjoy.
You could use your same arguement for other equal rights issues such as slavery, segragation or women's sufferage. In these cases women and blacks were telling the government what to do.
This government is not designed to do what the majority want to have done. That is why this country was not developed as a pure democracy. It was developed as a democratic republic to protect the rights of the few from the will of the many.
With this issue you will have problems saying there is a consensu as the most recent GALLUP poll I have seen shows that 47% of americans are opposed to a ban on gay marrige, 50% approve the ban of gay marriage, and 3% don't have an opinion. 50% can hardly be defined as the will of the people.
I'm not saying homosexuals shouldn't get married, but I find it hypocritical to me that they want to force their opinion and will on others.
Ok, explain this to me Gideon:
In what way does the marriage of two men, or of two women, force their opinion on YOU?
THEY are the ones who will get married. Nobody will be forcing you to have any particular opinion of it, and it will in no way affect your life. Nobody will force you to marry another man.
So please explain to me exactly where the hyopcrisy is when gays fight for the right to marry each other? Explain to me the corrolation between fighting for your personal rights, and fighting to limit someone else's personal rights.
quote: WarMage said:
This government is not designed to do what the majority want to have done. That is why this country was not developed as a pure democracy. It was developed as a democratic republic to protect the rights of the few from the will of the many.
Precisely. (of course, it was also designed that way to protect the aristocratic rulers who formed it, and their wealth,...but that's a different topic altogether )
quote: WarMage said:
50% can hardly be defined as the will of the people.
However, it is more than enough to elect a president...but that is also a different topic altogether
Now, stepping back, I highly suggest that anyone opposed to gay marriage read the list I quoted above. Beneath the sarcasm are some very legitimate points that need to be understood and addressed by anyone who wants to argue for the banning of gay marriage.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 07-10-2006 06:16
quote: DL-44 said:
However, it is more than enough to elect a president...but that is also a different topic altogether
Heh, I was going to come say something about this.
If the government is run by the will of the people, Gideon, then explain how the candidate that won the popular vote (aka - he got the most votes cast by the people of the country) lost to the other candidate? The electoral college deciding who to elect, despite the will of their constituancies - now that's a crime.
Politics, at any level above your local small town/village/city, is rife with corruption. It's all about the deals you make and and with whom you make them, not about what is the best action to take. That's why there is so much pork in the budget. *feh*
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 07-11-2006 07:21
I haven't blown a fuse. I'm just thinking. If that looks like a blown fuse then I have more problems than I thought I did.
Anyway, DL, I never said that it forces their will on me. And it doesn't directly. It does force their will on the government. You can fight for the right to have your own opinion, but when you start forcing others to accept your opinion...how are you different from those you fight?
Fighting for equality is a just cause. And I think that if someone wants to marry someone else, they should have the ability to do so, it is not up to me or anyone else to dictate someone else's life.
But that same idea goes both ways. Something my Pastor was talking about last Sunday was standing up for what you believe in. And I agree that if you don't take a stand on some issues, then you will start falling for anything. If America doesn't define what it thinks is moral or immoral, then do we have a backbone at all? It is up to the people to decide. Even if we are a representative democracy, it is still the will of the people that decide what happens. If you get enough to agree with you then I have no objections, because that is now the morality of America. But we as a people shouldn't allow something to happen inside our borders that is against our moral code.
quote: DL-44 said:
Explain to me the corrolation between fighting for your personal rights, and
fighting to limit someone else's personal rights.
Okay, how about legal drinking age? Do adults the age of 21 have more of a right to drink alcohol than those of age 20? I don't think so, but the American government does. That is the morality of the people at work. Although the same sex marriage issue is more important and gray than drinking age, I think the same rules apply.
[side note1] I do think that it is pretty crummy that the President who had the least support of the people was elected. But I think that the two leading candidates were both awful. One was selfish and the other stupid. That is all I will say on that subject though, I would like to not distract from the main subject.[/side note1]
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 07-11-2006 08:15
quote:Okay, how about legal drinking age? Do adults the age of 21 have more of a right to drink alcohol than those of age 20? I don't think so, but the American government does. That is the morality of the people at work. Although the same sex marriage issue is more important and gray than drinking age, I think the same rules apply.
Errr...that is not limiting someone's personal rights. Because they are allowed to drink alcohol, they just have to reach the age of 21.
Same goes for the legal age of getting married.
What we are talking about here is having personal rights at all. Hetrosexuals can get married under the law.
Homosexuals for the most part cannot (it is currently a contested matter).
quote:But that same idea goes both ways. Something my Pastor was talking about last Sunday was standing up for what you believe in. And I agree that if you don't take a stand on some issues, then you will start falling for anything. If America doesn't define what it thinks is moral or immoral, then do we have a backbone at all? It is up to the people to decide. Even if we are a representative democracy, it is still the will of the people that decide what happens. If you get enough to agree with you then I have no objections, because that is now the morality of America. But we as a people shouldn't allow something to happen inside our borders that is against our moral code.
Right, the slaughter of Native Americans and grabbing their land for your use is perfectly ok. Hell, just add in some genocide while you are at it. Sounds fun to me!
Oh, and while you are at it, keep African Americans in slavery, too. And women don't need to be able to vote (and neither do African Americans and almost extinct Native Americans).
I'm sure we can add some more to that list.
Gid, do you actually think before posting?
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Gideon: Oh, then it must be a misundertanding of the verb 'to think' on my side as there is 2 verbs for that in French, one means to think about something in a hectic random way without a single ounce of logic, the other implies rationnality and sound reasoning. I always assume the later. Too bad.
Anyway, while you are at preventing gays and lesbian to marry, you and the fellowship of the morale could as well lobby to prevent them from voting, having a job for which heterosexuals applied, to be in the vincinity of children, ... they could be gathered in some sort of reserves, those that are in the wild could wear distinctive garb to make sure the good morale people don't mix with them. Hell, that would remind the good old time.
Sorry....I truly forgot how far out of your way you go to try to bend logic to work for you gideon. I haven't the strength for one of those conversations again...
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 07-12-2006 21:08
Okay, sure. Let's get those concentration camps back up and running. Then I can put everyone who is different from me in there and shoot them. That is what I do, because that is the kind of person I am. I just hate anyone who is different from me. I want to kill them all and make the whole world just for boring old me.
I love it when people say that I hate homosexuals or Native Americans (which I am one) or the French. It just makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. I don't hate anyone.
Besides, I think that Homosexuals should have the right to marry. I think that if they want to do it they should be able to.
My argument was that there are Americans that still don't want that to be a law yet. If that is true, then some homosexuals may be forcing their ideas on others by trying to force America as a whole to recognize their unions. I know that I would recognize a union between two homosexuals, but I don't think my dad would. And America isn't a land but a people, and what the people recognize should be what the government recognizes.
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
My argument was that there are Americans that still don't want that to be a law yet.
And if you look hard enough, you will be able to find americans who will oppose every single law in existence. Does this mean all laws should be repealed, because there are americans who do not want them to be laws? Clearly not.
A simple moment's thought will show you how flawed your argument is.
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 07-19-2006 01:50
I guess my question to you then is: is America a land with rules decided by majority or minority? I thought it was majority, since it is a democratic republic. I could be wrong though.
A second question is how small do you go to protect a minority's rights? How big does the group have to be, how much support must they get to have their way in the courts? Can my pig-loving uncle marry a pig if he is the only one who thinks it is okay? Can a 50 year old man marry a 14 year old girl if they both consent, but none else do? Who is right? Who decides what right is?
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
quote:...Can my pig-loving uncle marry a pig if he is the only one who thinks it is okay? Can a 50 year old man marry a 14 year old girl if they both consent, but none else do? Who is right? Who decides what right is?...
Is it really that hopeless? Are people really that damned?
I propose - let us stop with this thread, or we will march into another huge nascar ellipse, again... just ask yourself how much can you keep turning left? And I don't think anyone should waste another breath that has been repeated trillion of times in explanation of why two humans getting married is in no way comparable with bestiality.
ohh fuck...i guess people have tendencies to mistake themselves for machines, thus resulting in loss of their logistic...
I guess my question to you then is: is America a land with rules decided by majority or minority? I thought it was majority, since it is a democratic republic. I could be wrong though.
yeah. try reading what has already been posted on the matter. If that doesn't answer your question, research the terms that have been presented.
quote: Gideon said:
... is America a land with rules decided by majority or minority? I thought it was majority, since it is a democratic republic. ...
I was under the impression it is neither.
Don't we have both a House of Representatives and a Senate in Congress so that the ideas of both large and small groups can be heard? It seems to me that the whole idea behind democracy as created in the U.S. was to deminish (if not eliminate) any one group, no matter how large or small, from telling everyone else how they should live.
From: 100101010011 <-- right about here Insane since: Mar 2000
posted 07-19-2006 19:02
Historically this nation has always been able to put aside the majority opinion when civil rights are on the line. Women's sufferage, racial equity were both minority opinions at the outset. And while the "majority" of the nation is against gay marraige the majority also don't really care. I can't find the numbers right now but last I saw only about 25% of americans consider the issue "Very Important" the rest have an opinion but don't really care. Note the lack of success in pushing a consitiutional ammendment.
Heck do a poll asking Americans whether health insurance should be free and I bet you'll get around 80% saying that free health insurance would be great but I don't see you arguing that we should all have universal health care.
quote:
My argument was that there are Americans that still don't want that to be a law yet. If that is true, then some homosexuals may be forcing their ideas on others by trying to force America as a whole to recognize their unions.
The gay couples I know (and I live in San Francisco, I know quite a few) couldn't give two shits whether your dad "recognizes" their marraige. They simply want the same legal rights and benefits that your dad recieved when he married his soulmate.
Also what pisses me off about this debate is that the major opposition to it seems to come from religious organizations who somehow feel their institution of marraige is somehow being diluted. If you don't what your religious commitment diluted you never should have seen it codified in law in a country that has a very clear distiction between the seperation of church and state.
Also what pisses me off about this debate is that the major opposition to it seems to come from religious organizations who somehow feel their institution of marraige is somehow being diluted. If you don't what your religious commitment diluted you never should have seen it codified in law in a country that has a very clear distiction between the seperation of church and state.
A sem-important note on that issue: Marriage in the american colonies was for several decades a purely civic issue, preformed by an appointee of the courts. The church did not get involved until significantly further down the road.
In addition, Marriage has existed in society in one for or another since before the judeo-christian god was written about, and has existed with and without religion in all human societies.
The religous aspect should have nothing whatsoever to do with it.
I'm surprised that Jade hasn't replied. I almost feel like this topic isn't complete without one of jade's trademark mass-produced conservative rebuttals that feel like they came out of a white house press release.
From: rooted on planet Mars, *I mean Earth* Insane since: May 2004
posted 07-20-2006 06:02
quote: hyperbole said:
Don't we have both a House of Representatives and a Senate in Congress so that
the ideas of both large and small groups can be heard? It seems to me that the
whole idea behind democracy as created in the U.S. was to deminish (if not
eliminate) any one group, no matter how large or small, from telling everyone
else how they should live
Thank you. That actually helps alot. And no put downs, thanks.
quote: bitdamaged said:
The gay couples I know (and I live in San Francisco, I know quite a few)
couldn't give two shits whether your dad "recognizes" their marraige. They
simply want the same legal rights and benefits that your dad recieved when he
married his soulmate.
If that is true then do they have to ruffle everyone's feathers by calling it marriage? Do you think they would be satisfied with a civil union that way they could get government benefits? Or does the term "marriage" mean so much that it has to be fought over by different groups of people?
(and btw, there is no such thing as separation of Church and State, only recognitions and abolishions apply)
And WS, I have the RIGHT to cast one of my eyes wherever I desire. So if I have a thing for pigs then leave me alone...
"For reason is a property of God's...moreover, there is nothing He does not wish to be investigated and understood by reason." ~Tertullian de paenitentia Carthaginian Historian 2nd century AD
From: 100101010011 <-- right about here Insane since: Mar 2000
posted 07-20-2006 07:55
quote:
If that is true then do they have to ruffle everyone's feathers by calling it marriage? Do you think they would be satisfied with a civil union that way they could get government benefits?
I'm not sure they'd really care. I think it's your side of the argument that does. If you were to give them the same rights given to straight couples and call it "abaczabazoo" they'd be fine with that, of course in private they would call it marriage and eventually reclaim the word and in which case this argument is just semantics and moot.
If you're really just arguing over the word then I'll bow out gracefully but I don't think that's the case.
What do you have against other people having happy/secure lives? How does their choice of who to love and build a life with effect you, and why should you (or any of us) have a say in the choices they make about their personal lives?
A life of a homosexual is not so and secure or very gay. Look around you.... they are on the defense 24/7. They are a mostly depressed and unhappy persons. They suffer from depressions, alcoholism and mental disorders more because they see themselves as repressed in comparison to the rest of us normal persons in the human race. They are bitter, angry because the world is not gay oriented like them. If it were up to them everyone would be created gay...TO BE HOMOSEXUAL IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR BECAUSE SINCE I LAST LOOKED THEIR PRIVATES WERE THE SAME..!!! I don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out. But must of you have jumped on the gay friendly...leave them alone ..let them have what they want... bandwagon. The sheer mockery of a union be it civil or religious or sacramental is a farcey joke....silly..silly. I wish I could give them pacifiers to calm them down... Most of the civilized world do not want to allow gay unions last I read. Most of you are in the small minority... Though you want to strive more a more secularized world...it aint going to happen. If so there will be a moral civil war...The Christian groups are strong.. They will never let it happen. Power comes with strength in consolidated numbers, and the Christian faiths world over will do whatever it takes to just keep us from destroying ourselves.
If you and the others like you, who are so dead set against homosexuals having the same rights as the rest of us get your way, what will society have gained, other than a large group of people who are not given the same respect and legal rights as everyone else?Rights?? You call two men (one with makeup) putting down roots with a nice little house, picket fence and two adopted girl and boy toddlers a nice happy normal couple to have a right to practice a loving union. Please I want to stop hearing regurgitating nonsense over and over. Lets stop the insanity. What is the world coming to?
I see you try to use the name of Christ when it suits to get a point across. Jump on the Christianity bandwagon and say Christ was loving...He would want them to love..love.. love. He preached it. So let them love contrary to the law of God. Its something that you only use his name to justify your view of contridiciton.
Look at our Christian theological view of Genesis so you can understand where Christians are coming from in regard to the view of human sexuality.
In the story of Genesis we have a beautiful Paradise in which God creates a part of who he is in Adam, human man, a beautiful anatomy which imitates what is an extension of what God is..Adam was the reflection of God, but Adam could not see it...He could not share the love of God... Sure there were animals, but they were not like him. Though he had dominion and the freedom of wills over the earth and its inhabitants, he could not see the love of God reflected back to him in the eyes of animals. God saw how alone Adam was and created another essence of which was to be a part of Adam's manhood. When Adam wakes up from a deep sleep, who does he find, a created being like him but different. Finally, Adam sees the beauty of God reflected back to him in a spiritual union.. He sees love in Eve. In the entire friendship with God, they need no one. The love of God sustains them. Male and Female. Here sexual union is not necessary.. Only the spiritual beatific union. In the fall of Creation, Man sees himself as becoming a God, a pride of how great and superior he has become apart from God...so now the sin of pride will bring his ruin... After the fall he no longer looks at Eve with love, but with lust. Eve covers herself in shame not because she feels shame of her own self, but she sees how Adam is now looking at her differently, only with sexual desire not of God. ( You know how when men look and women in girly magazines) This is when animal instinctual desire without the love of God comes. Now man wants to satisfy himself with lustful desires and many other desires contrary to the love of God. Here enters many counterfeit forms of love that are a replacement for what the real love God feels like. Man doesn't know of any other form of love then sexual love. To them sex is love. But they are deceived and they deceive themselves...and its a cycle of ongoing relationships that are not fulfilled or fulfilling ...like homosexual encounters as misguided love. Sure they think its love but its a delusion of what real love is suppose to be like in its commitments. So man continues his search for a satisfying love which apart from God he can never attain.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 07-25-2006 22:07
You and your kind have always lost, Jade.
Examine your history.
Blacks secured their rights, so did my people, so did women, and so too will homosexuals.
A moral civil war...please, don't make me laugh.
As always, you have totally avoided the issue. Instead, you blather about how homosexuals supposedly live their existances and then somehow wish to impart that because of their identical plumbing, that somehow makes them unnatural.
Just as laughable.
The issue here is Equal Rights.
Stop attempting to confuse the issue.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
From: 100101010011 <-- right about here Insane since: Mar 2000
posted 07-25-2006 22:57
quote:
They suffer from depressions, alcoholism and mental disorders more because they see themselves as repressed in comparison to the rest of us normal persons in the human race.
The sheer hypocrisy of this statement in the context of this thread is mind blowing.
Seriously this may be the most disturbingly ignorant post I've ever seen in the asylum.
You seriously frighten me. I wish I could say I was being facetious with that comment but I'm not. You know why homosexuals are on the defense? Because of people like you.
quote: jade said:
But they are deceived and they deceive themselves...and its a cycle of ongoing
relationships that are not fulfilled or fulfilling ...like homosexual encounters
as misguided love. Sure they think its love but its a delusion of what real love
is suppose to be like in its commitments.
Is the love you feel for your husband purely sexual? I would venture to guess not. Contrary to this misguided belief you cling to, homosexuality is not only about sex. It is not only about lust. You take the sexual component out of the equation and you are left with love. Pure and simple.
Do some homosexuals engage in sex just for the sake of sex? Yes. But so do countless heterosexuals.
I'm not going to ask you to step into anyone's shoes, as you've proven incapable of this exercise in the past. I am not writing this to reach out to you (because honestly, I think you're a lost cause). In a world where human love is so hard to find, why on earth would you want to suppress it where ever it would flourish?
quote:You call two men (one with makeup) putting down roots with a nice little house, picket fence and two adopted girl and boy toddlers a nice happy normal couple to have a right to practice a loving union. Please I want to stop hearing regurgitating nonsense over and over. Lets stop the insanity. What is the world coming to?
Have you ever met a homosexual couple?? This is so stereotyped it is sickening. Sometimes, it's really difficult to remember you're an adult. The sad and scary fact is there are more just like you.
Please note,
This is God, as jade has stated who has "a beautiful anatomy" and is actually made out of bronze. (perhaps holy spirit sometimes fills the void of bronze and makes it throw thunderbolts, as the pose suggests... He also hates homosexuals.
Now here we have an alcoholic:
who certainly seems to be (mostly depressed and unhappy persons. Suffer from depressions, alcoholism and mental disorders more than a "normal" person.) Which leads us to the next point, he must be homosexual. Who else would be so unhappy sitting in the shadow with a bottle of whisky? Certainly not the "normal" person who fornicates a female (if you are male) and vice versa. No, definalty not normal...he is homosexual.
quote:I see you try to use the name of Christ when it suits to get a point across.
When trying to break through to you it is a neccessity.
quote:Jump on the Christianity bandwagon and say Christ was loving...
What bandwagon are you referring to here? Was he not loving? Did he go around forcing his will on others? You know full well he could have but He gave us something called free-will. You may have heard it mentioned before. Now perhaps it is time you think about what that means. Just once, sit down and think, be honest with yourself.
quote:He would want them to love..love.. love. He preached it. So let them love contrary to the law of God.
God did not make you judge and jury of all that is holy. That power is reserved unto Him and Him alone.
quote:Its something that you only use his name to justify your view of contridiciton.
The only contradiction is your claim of being a Christian when all you talk about is how we should control and force others to behave as you deem appropriate. You are not special, you are not the hand of God, so either think of something intelligent to say or don't say anything at all, as you are just making a fool or yourself.
Jade, I believe that what you are truly afraid of is that two people might be happy living completely in opposition to a way of life that you believe is the only way one can achieve happiness. It's why you must cling so tightly to the idea that gays are depressed drunks (half of whom apparently wear makeup).
That's why you're so fanatical about restricting their way of life. It's why you fight so maniacally to prevent them from achieving the completion of the life they want to build. Because if they did -- if gays achieved the freedoms they seek and subsequently showed how happy and complete they can be without your religion -- then you would be proven wrong and your whole belief system would crumble beneath you.
You want to prove that gays will never achieve happiness by gaining what they seek? Then let them have it. If you give them the freedoms they demand and the gay community then explodes into violence and suicide, then and only then will you be proven right.
This thread was annoying the hell out of me and I was going to ignore it for my own good, but I find it is becoming so outrageous that I feel I have to express myself to calm down.
quote: jade said:
Look around you.... they are on the defense 24/7. They are a mostly depressed and unhappy persons. They suffer from depressions, alcoholism and mental disorders more because they see themselves as repressed in comparison to the rest of us normal persons in the human race. They are bitter, angry because the world is not gay oriented like them. If it were up to them everyone would be created gay...
Everything has been said about it, however I cannot help but stress out how appalling this sounds. Besides, in this statement you could replace "gay" with "black" or "mentally handicapped" it would be the same old story; it makes me so angry I have tears in my eyes.
quote: jade said:
TO BE HOMOSEXUAL IS NOT NORMAL BEHAVIOR BECAUSE SINCE I LAST LOOKED THEIR PRIVATES WERE THE SAME..!!!
To be homosexual is not a behaviour, you stupid sheep. It's a characteristic, as is being small, white, tall, heterosexual, black, yellow, daft or open-minded.
quote: jade said:
But must of you have jumped on the gay friendly...leave them alone ..let them have what they want... bandwagon.
Yes, because, we have been taught tolerance
quote: jade said:
Here sexual union is not necessary.. Only the spiritual beatific union.
If you can teach me how to procreate without involving sexuality, let me know about it. Why do you think God created reproductive organs, you stupid woman? And, why do you think God made it pleasurable, on top of that?
*sighs*
quote: jade said:
This is when animal instinctual desire without the love of God comes.
Are you implying animals feel no love for their peers? Have you ever taken a step out of your church?
quote: jade said:
Now man wants to satisfy himself with lustful desires and many other desires contrary to the love of God.
Now I am very sorry if I get a bit personal here, but don't you enjoy it in the slightest? I do hope you do. And there is nothing wrong about sharing a pleasant and intimate moment with someone you love. Or is there?
quote: jade said:
Man doesn't know of any other form of love then sexual love. To them sex is love.
Pardon my French, but do you screw your mum, dad, brother or sister? I, contrary wise, know an infinite number of ways of loving different people.
And so on... I could almost say something about each and every sentence you have written, but it really is too much bollocks for me to cope with.
And finally, I would like to add that your few posts alone in this thread, Jade, would put me off religion straight away without a question if I were in the process of making my mind up about it; the feelings you express here are so much full of hatred, discrimination, even racism that I really cannot believe God is giving you this message.
From: somewhere in the great indoors Insane since: Sep 2002
posted 07-27-2006 01:49
Jade...Jade...Jade... I am amazed at how much unsubstanciated drivel there is in your reply to my questions. If there are any stats to back up your claim that gay people have a higher incidence of mental illness I'm will ing to bet you got the figures from your local church news letter. And I happen to think that a good example of "regurgitating nonsense over and over" is quoting passages from a book that has never once been proven to be accurate. Yes Jade, I'm referring to your Bible.
One more thing- You can bet your prejudiced, ignorant, narrow minded, @ss that I consider ANY two people in love a good thing. But then I believe in Love, not some set of made up rules from made up people in a book.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 07-27-2006 04:26
quote: Moon Dancer said:
Wow, jade.
You seriously frighten me. I wish I could say I was being facetious
with that comment but I'm not.
Uhh... what Moon Dancer said.
Jade, I read you post with my mouth open in astonishment. I cannot believe that in the 21st century, such... stubbornness.. can be present in one person.
I'm so glad I learned tolerance and agape for others from my family, instead of whatever it was you learned from yours.
Yeah for the Washington Supreme Court.. There is a God. And thank God as the movement for pro gay/lesbian marriage is dealt setbacks over and over again to keep the liberal gay americans from shoving gay marriage down our chocking sore throats.
Reading thru the responses I gathered a feeling of anger, disgust and resentment towards me in my views. Good I got some stirring up of the pot. I don't sugar coat the truth.
Its better to tell it like it is. In the ministry of Christ, he was considered a rebel and was hated by many, but look what became of him. He was a voice for his father in heaven and that is what I do fo him.
The fundamental difference between you liberals is that we as conservatives believe man is created in God's image. Your liberal way of thinking is that you are the gods who want to create utopia on earth in trying to breaking the traditional bonds of marriage and ties between parents and a child. Will you never quit, in defending a lie. Will I never tire of debating or trying to get or point across.
Aren't' most opposing Bush , Democratic hopeful presidential candidates or just in general liberal Democrats insist that they oppose gay marriage. They are for "civil unions" with all the legal rights of marriage. But not the traditional union of marriage The big argument for "civil unions" but not marriage! is that gays are denied ordinary civil rights here in the USof A. Gays usually bring up the argument about all the straight couples living in "sham" marriages, ha. but what about the Clintons. Hm....
What gays can't do is get "really married" something all Democratic liberal hopefuls swear up and down to oppose on record. Instead, they demand "civil unions" and then throw out a series of "whys". In fact, the only difference between what the liberals claim to support (civil unions) and what they claim to oppose (gay marriage) is the word "marriage." A losing presidential wishy washy hopeful loser, JK once stated, I think the term "marriage" gets in the way of what is really being talked about here." Go figure??? Can someone really define what is a " marriage" ?? Is it in eye of the "rights" of the beholder or what US laws dictates? The answer is "none of the above.. Because the institution of marriage is about the union of persons in light of God's business. And no one on this earth can change its defines, though they may try to be Gods, it will never be able to change what he has created in light of scripture.
quote:Its better to tell it like it is. In the ministry of Christ, he was considered a rebel and was hated by many, but look what became of him. He was a voice for his father in heaven and that is what I do fo him.
You, jade, are no Christ. You should be appalled at your own arrogance in comparing yourself to him. Christ weeps at the hatred you spread in his name.
The rest of what you said follows no logical train of thought whatsoever. Try responding directly to what has been said to you. (Note I said "respond," not "react.") Otherwise, like DL-44 said, there's no point in your posting again. No sane person will attempt a conversation with someone who unresponsively shouts drivel. You're not changing any minds here.
I never compare myself as being the savior in comparision to Christ, but if your familiar with scripture.....we are suppose to imitate Christ...that is why he came for us.. to show us how to live, speak and reveal who he is... I do not think Christ would want us to reveal a undignified, unworthy and mean spirited person... which I am not...but I will not sit back and defend and become one with a lie...which is what homosexual love is...It has become a normal union of persons for you and you all are so passionate about the rights of a homosexual lifestyle that your not seeing the real picture... ..which is the dehumanizing of the human person. In our divine teachings, a real human though he may look human isn't until he reflects the essence of who the Christ was and is, which is the perfect human. In our striving to become a complete person with Christ, we try to repel anything that keeps us from this union. A tendency to mate with a same sex person is a falsehood. A tendency to mate with anyone outside the realms of a male/female committed union is a falsehood.
According to our Chrisitan teachings, and why we believe the way we do .....
God created the body as a "sign" of his own divine mystery. Because God is the source of the compliments of the sexes, when God created man in the image of himself, he created both a male and a female. They were then directed to be fruitful and multiply by becoming one flesh. This was the original vocation of man and woman, to unite their bodies and produce life, but to do so in the "image of God" which means it must bear the these characteristics ....it must be free,... total,... faithful and fruitful always and forever.
This teaching was not something invented by the our RC but taken directly from scripture. From the book of Genesis the bible uses spousal love more than any other image to help us understand God's eternal plan for humanity, We can see from reading, God wants to marry us. A passage in Hosea 2 tells us ..God wants to live with us in an "eternal exchange of love." This marital analogy is used because it best describes what God intends for us too to love as he loves, and to be united in that love with an "other" as well as with God. We were made for love and communion and this desire is inscribed into our very bodies. For us, we cannot achieve its desire without an "other." Male and female have a built-in desire for an "other" not a "same." Because humans have a soul, their union should far surpass the mere sense level of animals, and should involve the spirit as well as the body. In should be love that unites them, not just a physical urge. And this love that unites man and woman is meant to mirror God's love, which has certain characteristics its free.... total,.... faithful and fruitful. This is exactly what spouses commit to at the altar or with the preacher . . . to give themselves to one another without reservations, to be faithful until death, and to receive whatever children God wishes to send them. Every time this couple unites themselves in the marital embrace, they are, in a sense, renewing those vows. This is the proper reflection of God's marital love for us, in the marital embrace of those he created in his own image.
Per Christian teachingsd homosexual unions are not marital as God's love is marital because they are not fruitful. Homosexuality reduces the meaning of real sexuality as mere sensations and lacks the true gift of self that reflects authentic marital love. The longings for a union that is stamped into our very bodies becomes distorted and confused, driving us farther and yonder in search of a satisfaction that does not exist outside of God's plan. But the meaning behind the sriptuiral Churchs teaching on human sexuality goes deeper . Our experience reaveals that even in the most wonderful human relationship, that ache of solitude isn't entirely satisfied. We still yearn for something more. If sex really was our ultimate fulfillment, then marriage would be nirvana. . . . The marital embrace, as beautiful as it is, is only a foreshadowing of what's to come ? only a sign of something far greater . . .""" A union with God. """
Have you ever heard this famous saying in religious circles "every man who knocks on the door of a brothel is looking for God." Same is true of homosexual distorted love. Our desire for union with an "other" will never be ultimately satisfied until we are united with our creator. We have to remind our selves original sin robbed us of this ability to love as God loves. This is why we need a Redeemer. Jesus didn't die and rise again just to give us a kind of coping mechanism. Jesus came to restore creation to the purity of its origins. Jesus came to give us what we lost. That's why the Church claims that our longing for union can only be satisfied in Christ.
Our good news is that through genuine conversion of heart to the message of life found in Jesus Christ, we can all be liberated from what the domination of LUST in its counterfits, which of one is homosexuality.. Christ's grace can accomplish all that we cannot. If we live according to the truth of our sexuality we fulfill the very meaning of life. . We as Christians believe with the grace of God we can destroy the existiting conterfit culture that brings eternal death and brings us back to the glory of this great creation of earth.
DL.. I have always heard and real how the life of a homosexual is a hardlife because they go against the grain of human existance. I found this in our teachings but you can find the same info on any secular site:
Emotional/Mental Health Risks
Two extensive studies published in the October 1999 issue of American Medical Association Archives of General Psychiatry confirmed the existence of a strong link between homosexuality and suicide, as well as other mental and emotional problems.
Youth who identify themselves as homosexual, lesbian and bisexual are four times more likely than their peers to suffer from major depression; three times more likely to suffer anxiety disorders, four times more likely to suffer conduct disorders, six times more likely to suffer from multiple disorders and more than six times more likely to have attempted suicide.
Many homosexual activists point their finger at homophobia as the cause of these disorders, but the most extensive studies have been done in the Netherlands and New Zealand where homosexuality is widely accepted.
In an interview with Zenit News, Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a child and adult psychiatrist in practice for more than 27 years, said, "Compared to controls who had no homosexual experience in the 12 months prior to the interviews, males who had any homosexual contact within that time period were much more likely to experience major depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. Females with any homosexual contact within the previous 12 months were more often diagnosed with major depression, social phobia or alcohol dependence."
He concluded by saying, "Men and women with a history of homosexual contact had a higher prevalence of nearly all psychiatric disorders measured in the study. These findings are the result of a lifestyle marked by rampant promiscuity and an inability to make commitments, combined with unresolved sadness, profound insecurity, anger and mistrust from childhood and adolescence."
Physical Abuse
A recent study published in the American Journal of Public Health has shown that 39 percent of males with same-sex attraction have been abused by other homosexual men.
A study by Susan Turrell entitled "A descriptive analysis of Same-Sex Relationship Violence for a Diverse Sample," and published in the Journal of Family Violence (vol 13, pp 281-293), found that relationship violence was a significant problem for homosexuals. Forty-four percent of gay men reported having experienced violence in their relationship; 13 percent reported sexual violence and 83 percent reported emotional abuse.
Levels of abuse ran even higher among lesbians with 55 percent reporting physical violence, 14 percent reporting sexual abuse and 84 percent reporting emotional abuse.
As outrageous as it might sound, "Most medical groups have embraced the homosexual agenda and are advocating that lifestyle despite all the scientific studies and medical evidence that demonstrate medical and psychological risks," said Joseph Nicolosi, President of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. "Homosexual activism and political correctness are clearly trumping science."
Church Teaching
The same forces are also attempting to stifle authentic Church teaching on this subject by labeling it as "homophobic" and "hate speech." However, once one is made fully aware of the medical facts, it's much easier to understand why the Church teaches that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law." (CCC2357)
Unfortunately, the word 'disordered' steals all the attention and leaves much of Church teaching drowned out by angry invectives. Father John Harvey, founder of Courage, a support group for people with same sex attraction who are seeking to live a chaste life, laments the fact that far too many people, including Catholics themselves, are left with the impression of ". . .an authoritarian Church that makes decisions arbitrarily, without considering the nature of things. Nothing could be further from the truth."
Even from an immunological point of view, the body itself considers homosexual acts to be disordered. For instance, there are substances in seminal fluid called "immuno-regulatory macromolecules" that send out "signals" that are only understood by the female body, which will then permit the "two in one flesh" intimacy required for human reproduction. When deposited elsewhere, these signals are not only misunderstood, but cause sperm to fuse with whatever somatic body cell they encounter. This fusing is what often results in the development of cancerous malignancies. ("Sexual Behavior and Increased Anal Cancer", Immunology and Cell Biology 75 (1977); 181-183))
Clearly, Church teaching on human sexuality is not founded upon pious patriarchal prudery, but is soundly based in science, biology and anthropology ? all of which is illumined by the added gift of faith.
The same losing cause for religious zealots against inter-racial couples will happen with gay marriages. I believe their slogan then was; " It says Adam and Eve, not straight hair and a weave! ".
Anyways, here's an idea I agree with: Marriage, as far as the state is concerned, is nothing more than a civil union. We must remove the language, the word "marriage" from legal proceedings. The state should not be involved in marriages- all people should be granted civil unions, and then be married in a ceremony of their choosing with whatever crowd chooses to recognize the sanctity of that union.
I believe life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable rights every citizen of this country receives. Not allowing same-sex couples the right to marry infringes on their pursuit of that happiness. It's discrimination through and through. I see nothing morally or unethically wrong with same-sex marriage.
quote:Quoting church literature, that tailors selective data to suit its objectives is rightly called propoganda and proves nothing except, gullibility
Any kind propaganda forced on us by any politicians, proponets of any kind, or free thinkers proves anyone with a idology can make a religion out of liberalism and homosexuality. So your statement only reflects what some have spoon fed you into believing what is good is right for everyone else.. So you are gullible.
So an idology without God who is against God is a movment or cult or group. Sound like a cult you have embraced. Surprised there is not a church named Church of Liberalist. I see it coming.
quote:Realists are not without values or morality. Our values are based on Humanism rather than a fictional holy book. As Realists, our values include Positive Evolution, Exploration, Honesty and Integrity, Freedom, Individualism, Peace, Courage, Environmentalism, Compassion, Justice, Inclusiveness, Scrutiny and Doubt, Humility, Reason, Wisdom, and Personal Responsibility. We believe in Original Virtue rather than Original Sin. We are a Doubt-Based rather than Faith-Based religion.
Oh, and btw, the more I read you the more you make think to Ann "crazy bitch" Coulter.
quote:Jade: Any kind propaganda forced on us by any politicians, proponets of any kind, or free thinkers proves anyone with a idology can make a religion out of liberalism and homosexuality.
"Us" meaning people of faith?
quote:Jade: So your statement only reflects what some have spoon fed you into believing what is good is right for everyone else. So you are gullible.
Doesn't your religion spoon feed your beliefs that what is good is right for everyone else?
quote:Jade: So an idology without God who is against God is a movment or cult or group. Sound like a cult you have embraced. Surprised there is not a church named Church of Liberalist. I see it coming.
I disagree. A "cult" CAN BE be an ideology with god and for god. It just might be a different version of what is socially accepted or varies from the teachings from any organized or not organized religious order.
I don't want to get personal here Jade, but do you really believe that simply because you follow God, that you are incapable of being discriminatory towards gay people?
So, jade how long ago was it that you read Ann Coulter's latest fare? I could have sworn I read almost the same words on the jacket of that book (albeit slightly more coherent). The expanse of your original thought astounds me.
Whatever.
Bah... I had more I was going to say, but I'm not going to waste words on deaf ears.
No..never read an ann coulter book or read her book jacket but I have heard of her and may buy one of her bestsellers.. I hear every book she writes is a bestseller. So..if I come accross sounding like her ...I definitley have to read up.
I am not astounded Moon Dancer in the logic for the allowing of gay marriages....it reeks of a foul odor....and nastiness. Rights to live in freedom???? I suppose if an individual wants to have sex with a horse in the barnyard and marry the stud....it should be allowed in the name of " freedom" of two consenting beings since a horse can bow in a"I do". As unbelievable as this sounds people are that stupid.....I read in a magazine a crazy person wants to marry their german shepherd. How sick.
What if a 65 year old man wants to marry a consenting 18 year fresh out of high school youngling graduate...because they are in love... And the 18 year old is your brother and just maybe they want to adopt some babies, toddlers or grown adult 13 year old males for children and live happily ever after. If they are given rights like normal married couples shouldn't they be allowed to do so because they should be protected? Allowing homosexual civil unions just opens a pandoras box of a gulf of many more issues in the name of freedom than issuess like medical care, insurance, benefits, privacy, etc. and the politicians, judges can forcast this. What will be next?
Notice that a german shepherd and a horse might have some problems to sign the act of mariage, not to mention to understand their rights and duties that come with it and conscent to the union.
Jade your reasoning about gays/lesbian is dark sided.
quote:Jade: Allowing homosexual civil unions just opens a pandoras box,......What will be next?
Again with the worse-case scenario response. Do you have any facts as to what good or bad will happen when gay people are allowed to get the same benefits as "normal" couples get? No you don't. Do you know why that is? Because their are no proven facts to begin with, since they are not in the system at all for any such research to be done. It's just your "fear-speculation" that drives your ignorance.
Besides what good has your "normal" couples done for this country? Do you have any idea how much "normal" couples cost this country year after year? It's in the billions. Do you know how many ****ed up people exist today because of your "normal" couples? Millions! Do you know how many children are scarred each day by your "normal" couples? Millions! Scarred children because of priests? More than like it's in the millions but who really knows because the children are too ****ed up to tell! Do you even have any idea that your use of "normal" is anything but? Why not try and lead a crusade to fix your "normal" couples before you lambast the gay people. Trust me you've got a lot of work to do there.
Your "normal" couples have been allowed way too much leeway with respect to the rights that they are given. They abuse the sytem and I think your just worried that you and your ilk might lose a bit of those benefits and your scared. As religious as you CLAIM to be I see no compassion in anything you have posted here. And as humanity goes you are very much an empty vessel. Whatever you think may be fulfilling your soul to reach heaven it's nothing compared to the intolerance you have for gay people. And if you truly are that loving of person you will see that what you are doing is simply showing HIM that you truly are not worthy of his love.
You are an embarassment to the entire HUMAN race, to God, and to Jesus, and all that he stands for. I tried to not keep this personal but you have that knack of bringing out the worse in people with you views on this issue. You are so far off on this issue I dare say you don't use your brain correctly. Your disgust for gay people is based on nothing more than religious intolerance of others. Your soapbox is tainted with the tears of Jesus as he watches you from up high. The soul problem with this world starts with people like you.
quote:What if a 65 year old man wants to marry a consenting 18 year fresh out of high school youngling graduate...because they are in love... And the 18 year old is your brother and just maybe they want to adopt some babies, toddlers or grown adult 13 year old males for children and live happily ever after.
There is nothing illegal about a 65 year old marrying an 18 year old - it happens frequently.
People also adopt 13 year olds quite frequently.
So...it's ok for heterosexuals to do these things, but not homosexuals?
quote:I have always heard and real how the life of a homosexual is a hardlife because they go against the grain of human existance. I found this in our teachings but you can find the same info on any secular site:
Actually, I have done quite a bit of searching and have yet to find any site that is not religously oriented with an anti-homosexual agenda that agrees with much of anything in the bit you copied and pasted above. I also find very little of actual fact or of relevant fact in that little bit of nonsense.
At this point, I think jade is just trolling. She knows the more she spouts her nonsense, the more we'll denounce her beliefs, which she sees as persecution and proudly wears as a badge of honor.
Anything jade doesn't like should be burned. No one deserves freedom but jade.
Boy she is really something, very intelligent and fearless. I must read her books for sure..this is just a sample of some of her pts..
Ann Coulter on Liberal fear of Christians
Ann Coulter, in a article at Front Page, has a few choice words for liberals who insist that Christians are the greatest danger facing civilization today:
Despite repeated suggestions from liberals ? including the in-house "conservative" and Clinton-supporter at the Times ? Hitler is not what happens when you gin up Christians. Like Timothy McVeigh, the Columbine killers and the editorial board of the New York Times, Hitler detested Christians.
Indeed, Hitler denounced Christianity as an "invention of the Jew" and vowed that the "organized lie (of Christianity) must be smashed" so that the state would "remain the absolute master." Interestingly, this was the approach of all the great mass murderers of the last century ? all of whom were atheists: Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot.
In the United States, more than 30 million babies have been killed by abortion since Roe v. Wade, vs. seven abortion providers killed. Yeah ? keep your eye on those Christians!
But according to liberals, it's Christianity that causes murder. (And don't get them started on Zionism.) Like their Muslim friends still harping about the Crusades, liberals won't "move on" from the Spanish Inquisition. In the entire 350 years of the Spanish Inquisition, about 30,000 people were killed. That's an average of less than 100 a year. Stalin knocked off that many kulaks before breakfast.
She concludes:
Of course, the original text is no excuse in Hollywood. The villains of Tom Clancy's book "The Sum of All Fears" were recently transformed from Muslim terrorists to neo-Nazis for the movie version. You wouldn't want to upset the little darlings. They might do something rash like slaughter 3,000 innocent American civilians in a single day. The only religion that can be constantly defamed and insulted is the one liberals pretend to be terrified of.
hattip Brothers Judd
Which proves my point. No direct response to what's been said to her, no response to nearly every question posed to her. Just more fuel for the fire burning beneath the stake she ties herself to.
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This topic doesnt make sense, it has therefore been locked by the moderator
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In not agreeing with my views or when you have opposing views the best solutiion is to shut them up by pulling the plug? Your view is I don't make sense.
What hypocrasy.
quote: binary said:
Who has ever seen a dog or a horse fucking another male dog or horse...
I have. I have seen calves trying to do each other, as well as dogs trying to screw whatever they could - including a friend of mine's leg. This is common and really have nothing to do with the subject.
Anyway, the point isn't really about being born gay or not, here, or have I missed something? The point is rather about treating gay people differently than heterosexual.
I was going to say many other things, but I really can't be bothered; it looks like you haven't read the thread. Or am I missing your point?
If you do that binary that is censorship. In not agreeing with my views or when you have opposing views the best solutiion is to shut them up by pulling the plug? Your view is I don't make sense. What hypocrasy.
After your past tirades on needing to censor what you don't agree with, you have the gall to say such a thing? Wow.
quote: binary said:
I truly believe this is wrong...who has ever seen a dog or a horse fucking another male dog or horse...The laws of nature have proven that like poles repel unlike poles attract...and thats where common sense comes in.
This is where SO many people show such complete ignorance!
It happens in nature ALL THE TIME. I've seen more male dogs and/or cats screwing each other than I could possibly count.
However, lets reiterate ONE MORE TIME: Homosexual couples, like heterosexual couples, are about far more than just sex. There's more to it than just the 'fucking', binary.
From: somewhere in the great indoors Insane since: Sep 2002
posted 08-03-2006 23:03
I am starting to understand this now. Jade....Ann Coulter...Ann Coulter....Jade... hmmmm. Has anyone seen these two in the same room at the same time? No, I didn't think so.
That settles it, we know who is hidding behind the name 'Jade' now!
Most people love blubbling alot of nothing....lets make this simple....
IF YOU ARE GAY COULD YOU PLEASE STANDUP
thats right i didnt think so....so why aint you Gay? please lets not be hypocrites....its good to argue but i think there some boudaries we shoudnt cross...am sure all of you deep down know being GAY is wrong
DL-44:- thats a lie..i have never seen a dog stick its dick in another males dog ass..
Lesbians....hmmm..i dont think this wrong..especially if i get to watch...by luck the batteries may run out...and thats where my tool would come in handy
Most people love blubbling alot of nothing....lets make this simple....IF YOU ARE GAY COULD YOU PLEASE STANDUPthats right i didnt think so....so why aint you Gay?
And you really feel confident assuming nobody here is gay?
You really are an ass, binary.
quote:
please lets not be hypocrites....its good to argue but i think there some boudaries we shoudnt cross...am sure all of you deep down know being GAY is wrong
And as you can plainly see, that is definitely not the case.
quote:
DL-44:- thats a lie..i have never seen a dog stick its dick in another males dog ass..
A lie? Check your facts buddy. It happens ALL the time.
quote:Lesbians....hmmm..i dont think this wrong..especially if i get to watch...by luck the batteries may run out...and thats where my tool would come in handy
So like a typical christian, its only wrong until you can somehow benefit...
Seems to me a threesome is rather against the biblically accepted sexual behavior.
quote:am sure all of you deep down know being GAY is wrong
hum, sorry but no.
quote:DL-44:- thats a lie..i have never seen a dog stick its dick in another males dog ass..
In which world do you live exactly ? I've seen dogs fucking each other plenty of time.
quote:Lesbians....hmmm..i dont think this wrong..especially if i get to watch...by luck the batteries may run out...and thats where my tool would come in handy
Isn't lust a deadly sin to those who believe in fai....... huh God and the malarkey ?
Romans 1:26-32 (NIV) but you choose whatever translation makes you happy
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
Now I can't judge what other people do, but this one section of scripture tells me that Homosexuals deserve God's wrath... and if "I" approve of what they do.... I also deserve God's wrath
In my experience, Suho, such an outlook is by far the more typical. The fact that there are those of you who are not so typical doesn't alter that, unfortunately.
quote:Ms. Mollenkott: I would point out the context of it, the flow of it. Romans chapter 2, verse 1, says, "Therefore" ? now, "therefore," you know, in the English language means, "because of what I?ve just said, now I?m going to say something else on the basis of it," doesn?t it? That?s what it means. OK, so, "Therefore, who are you who judge, oh man," I?m quoting the King James [version], "because you who judge are guilty of the same." So what does Paul mean there? If really the entire Romans 1 is a condemnation of homosexuals, then Paul must be saying that anybody who judges homosexuals is homosexual.
Well, nobody really wants to take that interpretation, do they? So then we all have to admit that Romans 1 is not about homosexuals, that Romans 1 is about people who put themselves into the place of God, and that men with men and women with women was just one illustration that popped into Paul?s mind as somebody who really wasn?t a member of the Greek or Roman societies but who looked on from a distance and disapproved of them. And then he says, "OK, you who judge, you who put yourselves into the place of the seat of God and pass judgment on other people, you, too, then, are making an idol out of yourself, letting your own ego take the place of the Creator, who is the only one who is in a position to judge."
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 08-07-2006 14:23
quote:27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
The penalty it seems is to become a priest...and then be rewarded with a continuous supply of little boys.
quote:deserve God's wrath
lol... you are just too funny.
___________________________________________________________________________
Deja Moo: The feeling that you've heard this bull before.
Now I can't judge what other people do, but this one section of scripture tells me that Homosexuals deserve God's wrath... and if "I" approve of what they do.... I also deserve God's wrath
What I find funny/sad, is that once again we have a host of things being spoken about in this passage, and yet the only one to garner attention is the reference to homosexuality.
quote:
You are an embarassment to the entire HUMAN race, to God, and to Jesus, and all that he stands for. I tried to not keep this personal but you have that knack of bringing out the worse in people with you views on this issue. You are so far off on this issue I dare say you don't use your brain correctly. Your disgust for gay people is based on nothing more than religious intolerance of others. Your soapbox is tainted with the tears of Jesus as he watches you from up high. The soul problem with this world starts with people like you.
I pity your soul
Goodness...I am sorry, Zynx. I just didnt realize how passionate some persons are about gay issues. Are you gay maybe.. or have friends or relatives who are?
I never said I was disgusted by persons who embrace the homosexual lifestyle, you all say that.. Because we see the nature of lifestyle as an lifestyle that affects all of us as a race we have a deep interest in the outcome of law on this issue. We don't sit back and claim "freedom". We dont' see it as an issue of the "violation of rights" either...in persuit of happiness. We see it as a moral issue of interest in the common good of all peoples.
Do you have the rights to grow marijuana in your back yard because it makes you happy to smoke weed? If you want to persue happiness by being able to grow marijuana, why don't you try to push that agenda? If you did try, how does your growing and smoking weed affect me as a person in the USofA?
You state I am so far off on this issue...but far off from where, or what or who.?? Is it your personal ideology or someone elses in references to gay issues? In the view of a homosexual person, we see the person as a creation of God. We are tolerant of the human person and try to see Christ in that person always, but as long as that person is living in an active homosexual lifestyle he does not reflect who Christ is or wants him or her to be...which is a Christ like human. And this has a lot to do with me as everyone I come across in that we all share the same creator. And they are a spiriutal part of who I am as a Chrisitan.. They are related to me spiritually. Christ preached tolerance for all peoples and we are called to love all regardless or their choice in how they decide to live sexually.. but when they are living contrary to the law of love, we cannot accept this part of them. I know there is far more to a person that his/her sex life, and I relate to them always. I have my issues as well and I am not perfect therefore I do not judge them....I am taught to serve in all things and I would like to serve them too and love them also. Though I may come accross as un-compassionate .. I am more compassionate that you can imagine.
Yes... I am in agreement with your statement.... I do pity my soul always...as I constantly fall short of the glory of God in my persuit of eternal happiness that is not of this world. The real issue here is how you view Christ and his teachings on morality, which we differ on. You see Christ as a loving God who would permit anything that makes you happy...so do it... Many Christians hide behide this kind of their own make shift Christ as a person.
Related earlier how the life of a homosexual is a very difficult life and wanted to show you some views I found in regard to mental and emotional and physical health. I find the AMA's study of the lifestyle would should you how difficult it is to be a homosexual in today's world. I would not wish this kind of treatment on anyone but the studies prove what I related.
Long read...
While I certainly respect that people feel strongly about being gay or straight personally I don't care one way or another. I choose my friends based on whether they act as decent humans that I want to be around.
Sexual orientation only comes into play if I want to take things beyond friendship.
As far as I know I'm straight (not that it really matters) but I can certainly understand that humans fall in love with other humans. Nothing strange about that. However, I also see that from a reproductive point of view, homosexuality is not natures preferred way.
As for what this thread was about then?
Should humans be allowed to marry humans?
Sure, why not If the church don't want it, fine, marry out of church then. Heck, people are marrying dogs... http://www.google.com/search?q=man+marries+dog
What's the problem with human vs human then?
Basically, do I believe that humans should have equal rights as they marries?
Hell YES!
It's probably better to keep religion in church, unfortunately I've yet to find a society run by religion that actually respects humans and works in a day-to-day basis.
Over & out /Dan
*/ I'm a ginio.....genios......genu......smart person! /*
{cell 260}{Blog}
-{ Sleep: A common physical disorder that manifests itself as the level of blood in the caffeine circulation exeeds 20% }-
quote: jade said:
I find the AMA's study of the lifestyle would should you how difficult it is to be a homosexual in today's world. I would not wish this kind of treatment on anyone but
That life as a homosexual in our society is difficult as quite obvious jade. But it is difficult precisely because of people like you! For crying out loud Jade, how difficult is *that* to understand??
There have been countless societies throughout human history where homosexuality has been tolerated, accepted, and even embraced. The romans, the greeks, the celts are all very large and notable examples, but there are endless numbers of others.
I will be sure to read the links you provided when I have more time later.
quote:the American Academy of Paediatrics states that ?the weight of evidence gathered during several decades using diverse samples and methodologies is persuasive in demonstrating that there is no systematic difference between gay and nongay parents in emotional health, parenting skills, and attitudes towards parenting. No data have pointed to any risk to children as a result of growing up in a family with one or more gay parents.
quote:Homosexuality is defined as the sexual and emotional attraction to members of the same sex, and has existed in most societies for as long as sexual beliefs and practices have been recorded.
quote:6. The AMA Position
6.1 The AMA believes that a doctor?s non-judgmental acknowledgment of a patient?s sexual orientation, gender identity and behaviour enhances clinical care.
6.2 The AMA reaffirms its belief in equity of access to health care for all Australians.
6.3 The AMA acknowledges that a doctor?s use of language that assumes an individual to be heterosexual makes it harder for a person to disclose their sexuality.
6.4 The AMA is supportive of interventions that prevent the development of homophobia, as this will improve the health of all Australians.
6.5 The AMA recognises medicine is a diverse profession and is supportive of equal opportunity policies, which stress that GLBTI people receive the same protection as others in areas such as recruitment, promotion, training, transfer, terms and conditions of service and dismissal.
6.6 The AMA is supportive of legislation that proscribes discrimination and provides legislative recognition of same-sex unions and families as this will lead to legal, societal, financial and healthcare equity within the community.
6.7 The AMA believes that medical education curriculum should include subjects addressing issues of sexuality and gender identity. This should include information on the coming out process, education regarding discrimination, health needs of GLBTI subgroups and information about referral networks. This should start in medical school and be a part of continuing medical education at all levels.
6.8 The AMA believes that acknowledgment of same-sex partners is important in medical decision making and that these partners should be afforded the same next of kin status as their heterosexual counterparts.
6.9 The AMA is supportive of research and education that addresses the specific health needs of the GLBTI population.
6.10 The AMA opposes the use of "reparative" or "conversion" therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality is a mental disorder and that the patient should change his or her sexual orientation.
As far as this article supporting what you had to say before - it does not. Yes, there are some inreased probabilities of mental health related issues - primarliy as a result of people like you spewing the kind of hateful garbage as you have done here.
That is a far cry from homosexuals all being depressed alcoholics...
DL ...your site make me think the study of science apart from God means nothing to the soul.
You are showing me sites were homosexuality is recorded as a natural between animals, but we are not animals. We are set a apart as human rational beings,.... though some choose to , "act out their irrational self" its contrary to our "God given nature". Your trying to push, "since its ok for cats, dogs and sheep, etc... its ok for human beings too, so lets do it and do it in abundance.. You emulate what animals do..therefore your animal tendencies take over and are in charge. This makes the act of homosexual behavior seem all the more as irrational act. Your equating us humans with animals so you de-humanize beings. You do yourself and humanity an injustice.. You as a human being set apart from animals are more than that. And we have to relate to each other as humans. Some persons stress more energy of affection of love to their pets or animals in general instead of directing them to other human persons who are in need of love.. We, because we live in such a level of disorder, act out in disorder because of our fall. . Homosexual behavior is a disordered act. It serves no purpose other than gratify a sensual animalistic appetite like the cats and dogs who do follow their animal instinct with no responsibility whatsoever..But we have to be responsible to ourselves and our children. To proclaim a homosexual loving union as in a "traditional marriage" is a mockery to the institution of marriage of which no good can come of it. Its useless in its sexual nature as well. God did not make man to "gratify himself" but to gratify God thru his body. How can man gratify God by his homosexual nature?? He cannot. We are made for a better purpose. Though we have this tendency to sin we do not sin unless we act it out.
We are like a clock that runs on batteries. When the battery dies. The clock will not work. Though the parts are still good and are able,,, the clock cannot help us... After a new battery is put in ,it works perfect. In our lives because of the fall we are like the clock that doesn't work properly because of the disorder of the cosmos. We are made good and in the likeness of who God is so we are still able. If we accept the energy God sends its to reflect who God is. Homosexual behavior is part of the disorder of the cosmos. It comes to us as a false love of what God is. What is anti-God wants us to see homosexual love as a true love that come from God.. The love of God cannot be reflected between two same sex persons who try to imitate the love of God thru a committed loving marriage union. It can only come from a union which can co-create other human beings who are infused with a soul. Therefore ...to want to make this same sex marriage a lawful union can only bring more chaos in an already conflicted distorted cosmos. Its like God is saying" "Yeah, you want to act out in defiance against me....I will just bring more disorder and chaos...because you will it in your disobedience"
I wandered into this thread just out of boredom and after reading through I simply cannot believe that people like Jade exist.
If I get bored later on tonight I am going to search for some of her (with a name or handle like jade I am assuming it is a woman...) old threads and have a laugh.
DL's links regarding homosexuality in nature were in response, I believe, to binary's statement.
How about you address his responses to you regarding the AMA articles you linked to? Have a rational discussion for once instead of resorting to the irrelevant analogies you learned in Sunday school. Here's how it works: You make a point, someone else makes a counterpoint, you counter his counterpoint.
Now a couple of points I can't help but address:
quote:To proclaim a homosexual loving union as in a "traditional marriage" is a mockery to the institution of marriage of which no good can come of it.
No one is calling a homosexual union a "traditional" marriage, you stupid woman. The tradition has been to allow only a man and a woman to marry. Changing what is "traditional" is the whole freaking idea.
quote:The love of God cannot be reflected between two same sex persons who try to imitate the love of God thru a committed loving marriage union. It can only come from a union which can co-create other human beings who are infused with a soul.
Then we should obviously ban all infertile couples from marrying, as well. Their union can't co-create other human beings, so their union can't reflect the love of God. This is your own logic.
But to get back, once again, to the central issue: [b]Regardless of what you believe is God's will, homosexuals should have the freedom to make their own choices for themselves. You can't force all of society to live according to your personal convictions. Get that through your thick, inflated skull.[b]
Your trying to push, "since its ok for cats, dogs and sheep, etc... its ok for human beings too
I am pushing nothing whatsoever.
If you had bothered to read any of this thread, you'll see that the point was being argued, by people against homosexuality, that it is not natural and does not occur in the animal world. I was, in fact, called a 'liar' for stating that it happens.
Clearly it does.
However, as Wes said - how about acutally addressing the issues being brought to you rather than simply jumping from topic to topic and never addressing any of the issues?
I know after all this time, it is silly of me to even suggest that to you - you never have, so why start now?
{[edit -
one point you made I need to address directly, Jade:
quote:Though we have this tendency to sin we do not sin unless we act it out.
Is this not a *direct* contradiction of the gospel accounts of Jesus' teaching?
quote:How about you address his responses to you regarding the AMA articles you linked to? Have a rational discussion for once instead of resorting to the irrelevant analogies you learned in Sunday school. Here's how it works: You make a point, someone else makes a counterpoint, you counter his counterpoint.
The AMA is not God....its an association of doctors...Are doctors Gods?...as they would like to think they are...Last I heard they were a group of doctors who vote on issues from findings and then set standards...it doesn't mean we are compelled to follow them if they go against our principles. Just because they do studies here and there their findings are not carrved in stone like our 10 commandments are...Plus they are not always in agreement with other studies..I sent a site that was a view by a doctor who did not agree with the AMA..so that is a flag....... Its pretty stupid to just follow the AMA principles and form your conscience by them.. They are just men. yeah its ok to be a homosexual because the AMA said so....
Ok. DL .that just makes sense... thinking one is an animal would make them act and think as one....ok...now I get the picture..if one thinks they are an animal...they cannont distinguish what it is to be human..they are confused so they rebell against their rational human nature..
The AMA is not God....its an association of doctors..
~sigh~
YOU linked to the article...YOU claimed it was a good source of information. I simply quoted it back to you.
quote: jade said:
now I get the picture..if one thinks they are an animal...they cannont distinguish what it is to be human..they are confused so they rebell against their rational human nature..
If you could, for even a moment, pretend to lay claim to being a "rational human", you might be able to work with that argument! As it is I'm doubled over from laughter at *you* talking about behavior that defies rationality...
Most people love blubbling alot of nothing....lets make this simple....
IF YOU ARE GAY COULD YOU PLEASE STANDUP
thats right i didnt think so....so why aint you Gay? please lets not be hypocrites....its good to argue but i think there some boudaries we shoudnt cross...am sure all of you deep down know being GAY is wrong
DL-44:- thats a lie..i have never seen a dog stick its dick in another males dog ass..
Lesbians....hmmm..i dont think this wrong..especially if i get to watch...by luck the batteries may run out...and thats where my tool would come in handy
~Sig coming soon~
I'm almost speechless at that crap binary.
I also find it hard to take you seriously Jade. "The AMA is not God" Does your religion encourage you to start debates like this? Is it called witnessing or something like that where a person will pick a subject (like same sex marrige) and quote line verse and chapter, usually from the "Big Black Book" in an attempt to prove their righteousness, or someone elses wrongeousness?
quote:...Last I heard they were a group of doctors who vote on issues from findings and then set standards...it doesn't mean we are compelled to follow them if they go against our principles ... They are just men
It's pretty stupid to follow the principles of a group of men who vote on issues and set standards? Surely, you must be reminded that your own religion was conceived on just that type of exercise? (please note that I said religion not faith - there is a distinction)
Did anyone standup...and if they did then they must have been doing it on there knees coz i didnt spot them.
Agian... if you are doing something wrong you have a tendancy of doing it while you are hiding....right...why? coz ur brain is already hard coded with information but i guess at times we do have glitches and viruses
Jade, you are officially the most oblivious person I have ever made contact with.
Please do us all a favor. Take a flight to a small tropical island with no Internet service. Place your return ticket in an envelope. Slip that envelope inside a box of Fiddle Faddle. Burn the box of Fiddle Faddle.
quote:Jade, you are officially the most oblivious person I have ever made contact with.
Please do us all a favor. Take a flight to a small tropical island with no Internet service. Place your return ticket in an envelope. Slip that envelope inside a box of Fiddle Faddle. Burn the box of Fiddle Faddle
Oh...but Wes there a billions on this planet out there who think like me. More than 1/3 of the planet...So maybe you should run away by sealing yourself in a box and have it mailed to an island where gays are free to marry then you can truly be happy amongst a paradise of married homosexuals. It would be your utopia. Free...fredoom for individual rights at last. End of chapter.
there a billions on this planet out there who think like me.
It's great that you can take credit for being the minority and for the being the majority all in the same conversation
As for your actual claim there:
1) just because people are christian, as you consider yourself to be, does NOT mean they think like you.
2) being backed by the majority has nothing to do with being right.
The Jewish leaders and the romans who were supposed to have crucified your christ were in the majority...does that make their views right?
Now, how about getting back to this -
quote:
Is this not a *direct* contradiction of the gospel accounts of Jesus' teaching?
LOL
All aboard the Love Boat. Keep them thar boxes of gay friendly types locked down till we hit international waters. First stop Lesbos then it's on to Biggayalbos.
Whoa there pilot, keep well away from that 1/3 of the planet, nothing but hell and high waters there me lad.
Heh.
quote:The Jewish leaders and the romans who were supposed to have crucified your christ were in the majority...does that make their views right?
It was not a democracy...jewish elders & the roman procurator were not the majority. They were in charge...
)
quote:just because people are christian, as you consider yourself to be, does NOT mean they think like you.
this is right, but many muslims, buddhist, jews, etc think like me...along with the Chritians who think like me that makes many more. More of the worlds population not Christian believes like me...than you.
Voters accross the USof A have voted marrige be recgonized as between male and female.. Have you been out of the country here lately.?
Oh? The leaders did not have popular support? Weren't there supposedly large crowds jeering, taunting, and cheering at Jesus' crucifixion?
Are you suggesting there was only a small group who opposed Jesus, and the majority of people actually supported his cause?
quote:Voters accross the USof A have voted marrige be recgonized as between male and female.. Have you been out of the country here lately.?
For example?
2 examples have been cited here, where a law was not considered by a court to be unconstitutional in a couple of states.
That is far different from the public voting to ban gay mariage.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 08-10-2006 20:23
And jesus wept.
___________________________________________________________________________
The goal in Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy moly what a ride!"
why anyone would refer to others as pigs and to themselves as well deserves a good counseling....and some therapy...
DL ...if you are familiar with scripture, you wold be familar with the paying of funds to persons to cheer by the jewish leaders. And some were threatened. Besides why are your cmpaing this historical jesus with "gay marriges??? silly...silly...comparision.
Those who conspired to catch and crucify Christ were the leaders of the sanedrin and Ciaphas who had much power of the jewish people.
quote:Oh...but Wes there a billions on this planet out there who think like me.
I wasn't speaking to those billions. I was speaking to you. The point is you don't think. You vomit contradictory nonsense. You are a troll. Answer the questions posed to you.
quote:Free...fredoom for individual rights at last.
There were probably thousands, but maybe not many of them the followers of Jesus as they could of been in hinding for fear the same thing could happen to them.. Remember the apostles hid and Peter denied knowing him out of fear. Could be that there were more of Barabas's friends and cohorts who wanted him freed...Remember Barabas was accused of killing a Roman solider and Jesus only crime was inciting a riot among the roman provence. Barabas was of a group of extremeist that wanted to over thow the roman occupation and had many other followers who felt the same way.. Given the climate around that time, its possible they wanted to see him freed as he was the leader of their cause. So that would explain why.. Jesus was not freed.
But that really was no suprise to Jesus as he knew what was about the to happen to him would fulfill all rightousness..and seal a lasting unbreakable covenant with us.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 08-11-2006 01:33
quote: jade said:
But that really was no suprise to Jesus as he knew what was about the
to happen to him would fulfill all rightousness..and seal a lasting
unbreakable covenant with us.
Ah yes, the concept of predestination and free will. If God knows what is going to happen to you already, do you really have free will?
As you said, Jesus knew what would happen no matter what. The plural He already knows what is going to happen to each person in and after their lives.
You know what? No a damn thing you do will change any of that, Jade. So why don't you stop testifying and being a general troll. Not everyone believes in God, god or gods. Not everyone has been conditioned to think they will go to hell or to some oasis paradise after death.
Sidetrack: Did you know, the concept of hell is based off the founding religions environment? Wanderers (e.g. the early jewish tribes) living in a desert land of heat, little water and hardship tended to think the worst thing that could happen to them would be to suffer more of the same, only worse. Hence, a concept of hell that is heat and flames. On the flip side, in Norse mythology (aka religion), the concept of hell is cold, dark and damp because they lived in a Scandanavia.
Ontrack: Anyways, you keep making all these claims with nothing but your faith to back them up. In fact, the only thing telling you that homosexuality is "wrong" is your faith, because that is the only way you seem to be able to recognize it. You've been taught and conditioned to think this way, and you bought into the ideas lock, stock and barrel. You have no way of knowing if the "billions of people" around the world think as you do, you just want to think that because it makes you feel more smugly superior. No matter how much humility and/or piety you might claim to have, Jade, you come off as a holier than thou crackpot with an axe to grind.
By the way, if I remember my religion classes at all (and I'll admit I might not, it's been far over 25 years now), did Jesus come to bring us new laws to replace those in the Old Testament? Laws of love, laws of compassion? If so, then why is the moral majority so hung up on using the old laws of the OT to "prove" something?
Speaking of the OT and it's laws (which is where the moral majority like to pull their "rules" from), here's some fun facts I found in the Bible, esp. Leviticus, which is where a lot of people like to find the "homes are BAD" stuff.
quote: 1 Timothy 2:11-12 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
Wives, don't talk back to your husbands, because you aren't allowed. Oh yeah, hope you don't have any female bosses, because you aren't allowed to listen to them.
quote: Judges 19:22-24 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."
23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."
Offer up your daughter to be raped in order to protect your (male) guests. Yeah, that whole "women are chattel and property" thing most of the modern world has dispensed with.
quote: Leviticus 11 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
1 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron,
2 "Say to the Israelites: 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat:
3 You may eat any animal that has a split hoof completely divided and that chews the cud.
4 " 'There are some that only chew the cud or only have a split hoof, but you must not eat them. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is ceremonially unclean for you.
5 The coney, [a] though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you.
6 The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you.
7 And the pig, though it has a split hoof completely divided, does not chew the cud; it is unclean for you.
8 You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.
9 " 'Of all the creatures living in the water of the seas and the streams, you may eat any that have fins and scales.
10 But all creatures in the seas or streams that do not have fins and scales?whether among all the swarming things or among all the other living creatures in the water?you are to detest.
11 And since you are to detest them, you must not eat their meat and you must detest their carcasses.
12 Anything living in the water that does not have fins and scales is to be detestable to you.
Hope you don't like eating pork or rabbit or calimari or shrimp.
quote: Leviticus 12 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
1 The LORD said to Moses,
2 "Say to the Israelites: 'A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period.
3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised.
4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over.
5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.
Hope you didn't touch your wife (or allow yourself to be touched if female) at all after your kids were born. Because then you would be unclean as well.
quote: Leviticus 15 (New International Version) New International Version (NIV)
16 " 'When a man has an emission of semen, he must bathe his whole body with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
17 Any clothing or leather that has semen on it must be washed with water, and it will be unclean till evening.
18 When a man lies with a woman and there is an emission of semen, both must bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
19 " 'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.
20 " 'Anything she lies on during her period will be unclean, and anything she sits on will be unclean.
21 Whoever touches her bed must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
22 Whoever touches anything she sits on must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
23 Whether it is the bed or anything she was sitting on, when anyone touches it, he will be unclean till evening.
24 " 'If a man lies with her and her monthly flow touches him, he will be unclean for seven days; any bed he lies on will be unclean.
25 " 'When a woman has a discharge of blood for many days at a time other than her monthly period or has a discharge that continues beyond her period, she will be unclean as long as she has the discharge, just as in the days of her period.
26 Any bed she lies on while her discharge continues will be unclean, as is her bed during her monthly period, and anything she sits on will be unclean, as during her period.
27 Whoever touches them will be unclean; he must wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he will be unclean till evening.
28 " 'When she is cleansed from her discharge, she must count off seven days, and after that she will be ceremonially clean.
29 On the eighth day she must take two doves or two young pigeons and bring them to the priest at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting.
30 The priest is to sacrifice one for a sin offering and the other for a burnt offering. In this way he will make atonement for her before the LORD for the uncleanness of her discharge.
Wow. And let's not forget all the burnt offerings that need to be made to atone for this uncleanliness.
If you are going to use the Old Testament as basis for something, then you don't get to cherry-pick only those passages which suit you. Christians are those who follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, who gave us His word through the New Testament. If you are going to follow the rulings and teachings of the Old Testament (or only those passages which suit you), then is it correct and proper to call yourself a Christian?
A few other questions as well (not that I think you or binary or anyone else claiming homosexuals are bad will answer) - how does homosexuality hurt you directly? How does the prospect of gay marriage ruin the institution of marriage overall? What does the decline in morals overall have to do with homosexuality becoming more visible?
Leviticus a fun chapter of the Bible to read, because it sets out all the rules for living. I'd fear for the livestock populations of the world if we still had to sacrifice that many animals to atone. I'm sure PETA would have a field day as well.
The chocolate hazelnut stuff, right? I love that stuff! In fact, I'm eating it for breakfast right now!Although I'm not really enjoying the show, to be honest.
Are you sure and then what are you doing here..you cry baby..change the channel then..
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 08-11-2006 08:33
Leviticus reads like a prime time tv schedule.
___________________________________________________________________________
The goal in Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy moly what a ride!"
quote: binary said:
Are you sure and then what are you doing here..you cry baby..change the channel then..
Come on, binary, you know why I'm here... it's because of you! I tried to forget about what we once shared together, but it's no use.
Don't try to fight those feelings you have for me. It's OK. No one is going to condemn you. Well, OK, maybe this is the wrong thread for that, but most of us here will still love you.
Nice to see you back Suho btw, I hope the trip went well. Have you written about it yet? Tsk, tsk why don't I stop writing here and go to your site and check? Consider it done
It is quite sad, binary, that you can come in here ranting about how evil it is, and how wrong we are, and then completely ignore everything that is pointed out to you in favor of ridicule.
It says a lot about your character. You make it clear you have nothing whatsoever to do with any "good fight".
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 08-11-2006 21:55
quote:that name rings a bell
Yes, a very very hollow bell.
___________________________________________________________________________
The goal in Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy moly what a ride!"
I thought that name stuck in my mind for a reason. Some Ann Coulter quotes:
quote:
"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"
Fox News; Hannity & Colmes; June 20, 2001.
(References to Genesis 1:28. See also Dominionism)
"It would be a much better country if women did not vote. That is simply a fact. In fact, in every presidential election since 1950 - except Goldwater in '64 - the Republican would have won, if only the men had voted." number2; May 17, 2003 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,956452,00.html)
Yeah, Nutella is the brand I've got. Good stuff. Now that I think about it, it was Germany where I first got my taste of it (I don't remember if it was the Nutella brand, though).
Suho1004+theChocolatePasteLovers: In Norway we have Nugatti. It's quite close to the real thing: Nutella. It's actually closest than any wannabe Nutella I tried by mistake in France.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 08-13-2006 05:39
Man, now you guys have me craving Nutella. I'll have to scour the shelves of the local grocery stores to find some, if possible. I wonder if you can buy it online anywhere?
/goes off to test her powers of google-fu...
Edit - Well, no expanding of my google-fu powers, since it was the first link that came up. http://www.nutellausa.com/index.htm Includes store locator for those in the US. There is a link to an Italian page for the company, but I didn't see any other countries at first glance.
It's gotten a lot easier to get the good stuff here lately. Ten years ago you would have to trek halfway across the city just to find some, and even then you still weren't guaranteed the brown gold. Now I can drive fifteen minutes to the local Carrefour and get as much as I want. Usually. Sometimes they're out. But usually they have it.
Checks kitchen cabinet
Hmm... the current jar seems to be running a little low...
The last time I ordered something from Amazon it got lost in the mail and arrived a year later. I kid you not. Fortunately, it was a book, and wasn't too worse for the wear. And obviously I got it for free because I demanded my money back after two months when it never showed up. I was quite surprised when it eventually did arrive. In retrospect, it was probably the post office's fault and not Amazon's, but still.
So, yeah, I'm not going to be ordering Nutella from Amazon any time soon. But thanks for the tip. It's good to know that I always have that option, just in case.
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 08-15-2006 03:40
quote: DL-44 said:
The rest of you can fly away to an island where people can eat nutella and all be happy while we civilized, moral people live the right way.
then sign me up for the island. Nutella's some good stuff. Went to the local Jewish market here and they had some stuff that was like Nutella and it also was "swirled" with this soy milk stuff. That was some good stuff too.
quote:jade said:Goodness...I am sorry, Zynx. I just didnt realize how passionate some persons are about gay issues.
It is not about the gay issue jade, it is about your hypocritical views of love Jesus stands for. You claim to follow his teachings as best you can, yet you continue to fail time and time again. You seem destined to fail at learning tolerance, understanding tolerance, and following tolerance of others. Maybe it's best YOU realize your fault on this issue and either move on or learn more about the subject before you continue to blacken his image.
quote:jade said:Are you gay maybe.. or have friends or relatives who are?
Not at all, but if I did what issue would it be of yours? Are you willing to allow others to judge you on other issues? Meaning would you allow secular people to determine if you have the right to read from a supernatural book? Maybe you might be more understanding if you could see how others view your ideas on not allowing people to follow their beliefs. And don't go off the deep end in your re-buttle. It's beneath the intellect of a 4 year old.
quote:jade said:Because we see the nature of lifestyle as an lifestyle that affects all of us as a race we have a deep interest in the outcome of law on this issue.
Clearly you are asking that the separation of church and state be removed. The ends to your means is not it is illegal. Religion in the past used it's views on morality to determine the law of the day. Can't you see that it is an outdated way for a society to judge it's people by using the morals of any one religion? I had hoped that the majority of religious believers would have come out of that ancient un-ethical view of justice, but I guess Jade carries the flame of ignorance and with great pride. How sad.
quote:jade said:We see it as a moral issue of interest in the common good of all peoples.
Wrong. You see it as a way to enforce your religious beliefs/morals onto others by revoking their freedom of choice.
Jade we left the old world because of such persecution. Can't you see that you are doing exactly what we came to this country for. Freedom of religion. As well as freedom FROM relgiion. Do you see yet?
quote:jade said: Do you have the rights to grow marijuana in your back yard because it makes you happy to smoke weed? If you want to persue happiness by being able to grow marijuana, why don't you try to push that agenda? If you did try, how does your growing and smoking weed affect me as a person in the USofA?
First off why is that you need to be proven that nothing hurts you before you are willing to allow it. Not to mentiopn that religious ceremonies do involve drugs which are protected by the countrys highest court of law. Now the pursuit of happiness I refer to is the idea that my government nor my fellow citizens shall not hinder my CHOICE to persue my happiness, lest it conflict with the laws of this land. So Jade ask yourself if homosexuality is illegal? Not to mention that a recent Texas ruling has squashed any governmental attempt to willfully legalize a persons bedroom and all actions within. I believe it had reversed the states law of sodomy with two consenting adults. So since the law changed so should your agreement with it. Of course you might prefer a country ruled by religion first the law second? Like Saudia Arabia. Try being a woman there and getting a job. Good luck.
quote:loj58Now I can't judge what other people do, but this one section of scripture tells me that Homosexuals deserve God's wrath...and if "I" approve of what they do....I also deserve God's wrath.
This is exactly the kind of mental bulls**t that I believe is the root of tis issue. Homosexuality or their marriage or union is not going to destory humanity or religion itself. What will help in the destruction of such things is this idea that my religion should be used to stop others from believing what they believe. Simply put, you can believe in stones, just don't throw them at me.
Identical plumbing....that pretty must sums it up.
Of what purpose would unnatural sex regarding two penis provide? Can one penis go inside of another? Ouch. And if there is ejacuation..what of it??? Its filled with tiny microscopic sperm just dying to fertilize and just trying to do their natural duty. Where else does the penis go in sex between two consenting adult males??? In the wrong places for sure.
Are homosexuals, lesbians, etc free to have sex anyway they way since they are consenting adults? Yeah.. They follow their own private will to seek and choose what they desire in their lust. And just because they desire this unnatural way of lust, doesn't mean it is moral. Its always a choice to do an immoral or moral act as we all know.
Can we compare the relationship of a love of two of the opposite sex with the love of two same sex as genuine love. One achieves the means to an end and the other does not achieve anything. One in the theological view is for the procreation and fulfillment for the human race , the other is just a present counterfeit to deflect what is real truth. And is never satisfied.
For instance, lets use Rosie O Donnell and her partner..They set up house and have 3 or 4 kiddos. Rosie married this woman in a civil ceremony and they all play house like a real family. Rosie plays the male stronger dominate figurehead who brings home most of the bacon and the woman plays the wife who is of the more feminine and takes nurturing care of the kiddos. Is anything wrong with this family? Will the children have a male/female partnership role model relationship to guide them thru life. Because children learn from their parents important lessons on how to communicate as a loving wife or husband from their parents...father/mother nurturing is very important in the growing years of a child. Many emulate the kind of family they grew up in. Can Rosie father her son like a real male father can? NO. Can she show him what it means to be a real father in every sense of the word in thought and action .Definitely Not. If their children attend public school, most of their school friends will have male fathers...Will their children feel deprived of a natural father....YES most definitely. Most or all children want and daddy and a momma..But life is not always fair and we cannot always have the ideal. But to have a unnatural union instead of a normal healthy union is far worse and sends very wrong signals. If they choose this way of life why are they not content to just live. They will in the end reap what they have sown. So to try to get laws passed so we can recognize this kind of unnatural union as a natural family her in the USof A is wrong and we don't have to accept it. We can enact laws to fight against it for the common moral good of all people.
Identical plumbing....that pretty must sums it up. Of what purpose would unnatural sex regarding two penis provide? Can one penis go inside of another? Ouch. And if there is ejacuation..what of it??? Its filled with tiny microscopic sperm just dying to fertilize and just trying to do their natural duty.
Please answer me this question Jade:
Has every sexual encounter you have ever had resulted in a pregnancy and the birth of a child?
If not, any point you are trying to make is *completely* without the slightest bit of merit.
If the answer is yes, I will say: good for you. But you still don't have the right to determine that everyone should live that way, and you still have a *TON* of heterosexuals who are more problematic to your view.
I will say that I have not known a single person who was strongly against homosexuality that did not engage in 'sex for pleasures sake' with members of the opposite gender.
jade: Don't worry for Rosie's kids. They'll be fine. Gay and lesbian, and their community, have two things oblivious to you. Two things essential to raise children to become good people with a critical sense:
tolerance
open mindness
Having 2 gay/lesbian parents is certainly better than having divorced or brainwashed parents.
Oh, and as for the same plumbing "argument", let me remind you that there is other ways, and parts of one another's anatomy, to find/have pleasure with. Which practices are common to both heterosexuals and homosexuals. Do you want me to name some or your prude ears are not fit for that ?
Poor Jade. Unsatisfied with her own life, she must try her hardest to live others' for them.
You have every right to think any one of my actions is immoral, Jade, but as long as it doesn't affect you, you do not have the right to tell me I can't do it.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-03-2006 20:21
quote: jade said:
Can we compare the relationship of a love of two of the opposite sex with the love of two same sex as genuine love. One achieves the means to an end and the other does not achieve anything. One in the theological view is for the procreation and fulfillment for the human race , the other is just a present counterfeit to deflect what is real truth. And is never satisfied.
So wait, you are implying that any sex that does not result in a pregnancy is wrong? As DL-44 asked, haven't you ever had sex just for the pleasure? And if not, if every instance of copulation has resulted in a child, then I feel very sorry for you. Because it is an expression of love between two people. And what about couples that either cannot have children or choose to not have children? Are you going to say they are committing a sin everytime they make love because the sperm goes to "waste"?
quote: jade said:
For instance, lets use Rosie O Donnell and her partner..They set up house and have 3 or 4 kiddos. Rosie married this woman in a civil ceremony and they all play house like a real family. Rosie plays the male stronger dominate figurehead who brings home most of the bacon and the woman plays the wife who is of the more feminine and takes nurturing care of the kiddos. Is anything wrong with this family? Will the children have a male/female partnership role model relationship to guide them thru life. Because children learn from their parents important lessons on how to communicate as a loving wife or husband from their parents...father/mother nurturing is very important in the growing years of a child. Many emulate the kind of family they grew up in. Can Rosie father her son like a real male father can? NO. Can she show him what it means to be a real father in every sense of the word in thought and action .Definitely Not. If their children attend public school, most of their school friends will have male fathers...Will their children feel deprived of a natural father....YES most definitely. Most or all children want and daddy and a momma..But life is not always fair and we cannot always have the ideal. But to have a unnatural union instead of a normal healthy union is far worse and sends very wrong signals. If they choose this way of life why are they not content to just live. They will in the end reap what they have sown. So to try to get laws passed so we can recognize this kind of unnatural union as a natural family her in the USof A is wrong and we don't have to accept it. We can enact laws to fight against it for the common moral good of all people.
Personally, I'd like know what reality jade is part of, since it's not the one where the divorce rate is +50% and single parent families are probably far more common than the "traditional" two parent household is. Not to mention that kids are infinitely flexible, very adaptable and while they can be extremely literal, they can also show a much deeper understanding of some things than one might believe. What Rosie & spouse will be showing to their kids is that they are loved and that their parents love each other. Life isn't all happiness and light.
Jade, according to you, growing up in a "natural family" of two parents, one male and one female, implies that the kids will grow up just as "normal" as their parents. How then do you explain the existance of homosexuals at all? How do you explain all the successful, happy, well-adjusted people who did not grow up having a father and a mother?
Oh, and another thought. Since you seem to like using the OT for your arguments, I have a question about what it's like to be part of a plural marriage (polygyny) and considered your husband's property. Is it hard to have to share him with other women on a regular basis? Just wondering is all, since men having multiple wives (and having children by their servants as well - do you have a maid?) is acceptable and common practice in the OT as well.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 10-03-2006 20:35
quote:We can enact laws to fight against it for the common moral good of all people.
Yup.... just like they do in Iran. Mullah Bush has a bit of a ring to it don't ya think?
Good thinking Jade. Almost as good as that pope of yours...who, in a matter of what a year??? manages to wipe out any inter-faith diplomacy your previous leader managed to engender. That current boy of yours is an absolute dolt. And an old dolt at that.
Catholics should have a law disbarring old farts from wearing the funny hat. Old farts in the big chair are only interested in speeding up 'the end times' because they know their time is pretty much up and how cool it would be if it all came to a thundering end while they were twiddling the big rosary.
Put an alterboy in charge and switch them out when they reach the age of 25. Put somebody in charge who wants to live for a while, someone who can still get an erection...and then you can start talking seriously about a second coming.
___________________________________________________________________________
The goal in Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy moly what a ride!"
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-03-2006 20:50
Wow Jade...just wow.
Your seperation from reality has reached new heights.
Man's history is full of examples of other types of family models as the one you seem to attach so much importance to. Again, I would ask you to broaden your knowledge before you attempt to tackle things obviously beyond your current understanding.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Jade - I'm just curious here... You keep talking about laws against gay marriage because of its "immorality". Where on the scale immoral acts do you place it? Is it as bad as murder? Stealing the life savings of a senior? Raping a 12 year old girl? Executing innocent school children? Kidnapping?
Or is it more along the lines of exchanging sexual emails with minors while maintaining a front of a law-abiding (and <gasp> a law-making) citizen?
What is morality to you, Jade? Is it simply ideas that have been put forth to you in the Bible and Catechism, preached to you by your clergy? Or does it actually mean something? I consider an immoral act to be flagrant disregard of one's personal liberties - acts of violence, theft - behaviors that cause harm to one's immediate well being and done without willful permission or consent.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-05-2006 02:12
quote: Suho1004 said:
How many times am I going to have to derail this thread? I just want to know in advance so I can start planning.
As long as you kep derailing it with thoughts of rich, creamy, heavenly tasting Nutella, then as many times as you like. In fact, you can derail the derails with Nutella.
And while we're on the subject, has anyone heard of something called NuCrema? My friend here in Korea went to the imported foods section of his local store, looking for the good stuff, and he found this instead. The lady there told him that "people say it's the same." Well, my friend has told me that it is most definitely not the same. I'm not too worried about my friend (I've already had him excommunicated from the Church of Nutella and there's a hitman waiting for him when he gets home), but the idea that there is an imposter out there trying to deceive the innocents dismays me to no end.
quote:Poor Jade. Unsatisfied with her own life, she must try her hardest to live others' for them. You have every right to think any one of my actions is immoral, Jade, but as long as it doesn't affect you, you do not have the right to tell me I can't do it.
As DL-44 asked, haven't you ever had sex just for the pleasure?
I don't feel poor and I am lacking in some areas and have my shortcomings but for the most part I am happy. I feel quite rich with life at present. No I won't stick it in anyone's face that they are living immoral..unless they ask me and I would explain in a loving way to seek confidence in God and he would want them to achieve a beautiful
destiny by living in the ways of the Lord.
quote:So wait, you are implying that any sex that does not result in a pregnancy is wrong?
No. I did not note that.. From what I perceive sexual pleasure was created for man... Man was not created for sexual pleasure... and in the realm of a married committed state. A creation of life has a particular time in life when its destined to come.. And if its a hit an miss this is not the time for a soul to enter this world. Orgasims are super eroitc experiences which in comparison in the sensual tangibles cannot be matched..This coming together is a well thought out ritual in regard to the cosmos. No mating, no mankind continued. Its an excellent plan. Thwarting that plan is unhealthy sexual unions that don't produce , add or help to the planet.. Therefore the only meaning they have is unto themselves, which is selfish love masqueraded.
Referring to Suhos's sweet derivatives (sigh)...I think its about discipline in choosing what's is right...too much sweets are really bad for you. And can damage your teeth, health and is not too scale friendly. So abstinence is much better for the visual physical body....Those who are not spiritually disciplined cannot find a peace. Their body dominates the mind instead of the mind dominates the body. Therefore they are always thirsty for what they think will bring them the greatest of pleasures, which is suppose to be a holy family in union with a God. There is no God in a homosexual union. Never will be. Men are suppose to gratify God with their bodies in thoughts, words, and especially deeds.. Per theological circles, the marriage union should emulate the trinity..Three in a union...Man, God, Wife. .All three entities in the trinity love 24 seven in the greatest of mysteries in the most perfect union constantly in motion. In other words its POWERHOUSE of love in orbit..
quote:And if not, if every instance of copulation has resulted in a child, then I feel very sorry for you.
Thanks for trying to feel sorry for me......but because you don't think like me...I don't feel sorry for you...And I really don't feel like I am missing out..on a sexual fantasy of two women...nausea might set in and make me ill. Then I will have green vomit everywhere.
quote:Because it is an expression of love between two people. And what kids will grow up just as "normal" as their parents. How then do you explain the existence of homosexuals at all? How do you explain all the successful, happy, well-adjusted people who did not grow up having a father and a mother?
I just love my betta fish Oscar and I tap his tank everyday to show it I am there.. Yeah..I can express love.
Well..I really wouldn't know if they are truly happy individuals...living in the world in the wrong place like a shoe being on the wrong foot...Yes...I can see they are blissfully happily living in a world that goes against the very grain of their lives...
what is your definition of well adjusted???? That sex going both ways is healthy and good and produces a happy fruitful meaningful life...and either way they will be happy.
Homosexual behavior is a choice...Regardless of their nature...or deep rooted wanna be a woman or man role mentallity.
quote:Oh, and another thought. Since you seem to like using the OT for your arguments, I have a question about what it's like to be part of a plural marriage (polygyny) and considered your husband's property. Is it hard to have to share him with other women on a regular basis? Just wondering is all, since men having multiple wives (and having children by their servants as well - do you have a maid?) is acceptable and common practice in the OT as well.
When have I used OT as an argument here lately?..more often I would use NT scripture..OT laws are fulfilled in the new...The extreme messages in history of the chosen people have relevance in the times to tell the history of a people in their old laws..Bible passage have points of reference to a lesson and also fact of historical value...
Per Scripture...If your hand sins cut it off & if your eye sins gouge it out...Is this to be taken literally? It has a particular lesson in the simplest object of temptation can lead you astray so get rid of it...like a person, friendship..object...etc...because in the seriousness it can be your ruin.
quote:We can enact laws to fight against it for the common moral good of all people. Yup.... just like they do in Iran. Mullah Bush has a bit of a ring to it don't ya think? Good thinking Jade. Almost as good as that pope of yours...who, in a matter of what a year??? manages to wipe out any inter-faith diplomacy your previous leader managed to engender. That current boy of yours is an absolute dolt. And an old dolt at that. Catholics should have a law disbarring old farts from wearing the funny hat. Old farts in the big chair are only interested in speeding up 'the end times' because they know their time is pretty much up and how cool it would be if it all came to a thundering end while they were twiddling the big rosary. Put an alterboy in charge and switch them out when they reach the age of 25. Put somebody in charge who wants to live for a while, someone who can still get an erection...and then you can start talking seriously about a second coming.
What does this have to do with same sex marriage?..if you want to pope bash,Catholic bash... put it on another thread.
Do you think the holy father would put out a comment if in the long run he knew something was brewing?. Believe me...this statement was planned and well thought out and in the end this statement will have a positive effect in the relations with the Islam world...in that they the leaders of the Islamic world came together in peace at the popes residence to speak of non-violence and to promote non-violence. What have you done to promote non-violence...here lately... What other world religions leader has done this... Has Joel Olsteen done it..No..he is just small fry..for you to toast. But that is another subject...I am glad he said what he said and he did not apologize for his statement just that he is sorry the muslims took offense.
quote:Jade - I'm just curious here... You keep talking about laws against gay marriage because of its "immorality". Where on the scale immoral acts do you place it?
Is it as bad as murder? Stealing the life savings of a senior? Raping a 12 year old girl? Executing innocent school children? Kidnapping? Or is it more along the lines of exchanging sexual emails with minors while maintaining a front of a law-abiding (and <gasp> a law-making) citizen? What is morality to you, Jade? Is it simply ideas that have been put forth to you in the Bible and Catechism, preached to you by your clergy? Or does it actually mean something? I consider an immoral act to be flagrant disregard of one's personal liberties - acts of violence, theft - behaviors that cause harm to one's immediate well being and done without willful permission or consent.
Morality is not something the Catholics invented...many who lead secular lives still adhere to moral principles...I am sure you have few you adhere to. Like honor you parents, don't cheat on your wives & husbands, don't have two wives, don't steal what doesn't belong to you, don't accuse someone who you know is innocent, don't have prerverted sex with one, two, three people, including animals.. Does this sound like you? Or have you broken all of them...See... I am sure you practice moral principles. But in regard to the sacred piece of a unique masterpiece in your human body it should be treated and cared for with great integrity, modesty and good intentions...
Giving into the desires of the flesh in any immoral way......damages the soul. So if we give in to the desires of the soul in good conscience we are saving the body uncorrupted.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-06-2006 06:21
quote: jade said:
When have I used OT as an argument here lately?..more often I would use NT scripture..OT laws are fulfilled in the new...The extreme messages in history of the chosen people have relevance in the times to tell the history of a people in their old laws..Bible passage have points of reference to a lesson and also fact of historical value...
Per Scripture...If your hand sins cut it off & if your eye sins gouge it out...Is this to be taken literally? It has a particular lesson in the simplest object of temptation can lead you astray so get rid of it...like a person, friendship..object...etc...because in the seriousness it can be your ruin.
OK, then out of curiousity, please provide chapter and verse of the NT that speaks against homosexuality. Because all the rules against it have always been provided out of the OT.
Jesus spoke of love, and accepting your neighbor, forgiving your enemies. You only seem to be able to judge and speak ill of those who don't conform to your ideal worldview.
quote:Referring to Suhos's sweet derivatives (sigh)...I think its about discipline in choosing what's is right...too much sweets are really bad for you. And can damage your teeth, health and is not too scale friendly. So abstinence is much better for the visual physical body....Those who are not spiritually disciplined cannot find a peace. Their body dominates the mind instead of the mind dominates the body. Therefore they are always thirsty for what they think will bring them the greatest of pleasures, which is suppose to be a holy family in union with a God. There is no God in a homosexual union. Never will be. Men are suppose to gratify God with their bodies in thoughts, words, and especially deeds.. Per theological circles, the marriage union should emulate the trinity..Three in a union...Man, God, Wife. .All three entities in the trinity love 24 seven in the greatest of mysteries in the most perfect union constantly in motion. In other words its POWERHOUSE of love in orbit..
I am in complete and total awe at how you managed to turn a comment on Nutella back into a criticism of homosexuality.
quote:I am in complete and total awe at how you managed to turn a comment on Nutella back into a criticism of homosexuality
.
I never wanted to win...but you know you will always crave whats not really good for you...Who can give up sweets forever? Not many want to. Its real hard. The pleasures of sweets are so satisfying and addicting to the taste buds. But if you detox and fast from sweets the body will no longer crave it. Disclipine in eating habits produces good health in mind, body and spirity. Tasting Nutella is a sweet euphoric experience that only last seconds. Why not try to experience a sweet euphoria that last forever?
quote:
Jade, I dub thee Homophobe.
You have my pity.
Well...I guess if I have to take pity... I will.. At least that is some kind of emotional feeling I will get from you...so I have to take what I can get..
I am not homophobic. Have you entertained homosexuals in your home or have you went to dinner with lesbians? I have. My Catholic sister's best friend is a homosexual. They are everywhere...they are in every workplace, etc...but because I am in their presence does not mean I agree with how they live. An aquaintance I know is having an affair and she knows its wrong, but me telling her to stop and saying its not right will not stop her. All I can do is pray and see if she will come around. It has to be her will, but I can help her will by prayer...so this is the same way I see persons who live sexually contrary to their nature..
quote:I am not homophobic. Have you entertained homosexuals in your home or have you went to dinner with lesbians? I have.
Yep and there was absolutely no problem. Like bigots, they are people after all.
quote:An aquaintance I know is having an affair and she knows its wrong, but me telling her to stop and saying its not right will not stop her. All I can do is pray and see if she will come around. It has to be her will, but I can help her will by prayer...so this is the same way I see persons who live sexually contrary to their nature.
WTF!? she's having an afair and knows it's wrong. Hell no. It's GREAT! She shouldn't let anyone dictate her how she should feel about it. It's HER affair.
quote:I never wanted to win...but you know you will always crave whats not really good for you...Who can give up sweets forever? Not many want to. Its real hard. The pleasures of sweets are so satisfying and addicting to the taste buds.
So... Why did God punished us with the principle of craving? I do not like sweets, as a matter of facts. I am more likely to crave for meat... or cigarettes.
Anyway, the problem is the same. What on Earth did God make us so vulnerable and addicted to pleasure? If I had one and only question to ask Him, it would be the latter.
quote:But if you detox and fast from sweets the body will no longer crave it. Disclipine in eating habits produces good health in mind, body and spirity.
Again, is life really about fighting against natural tendencies? I have given up a long time ago. There are way too many things I have to bother or worry about about in my "real" life not to have one minute left for going against my own nature.
quote:I am not homophobic. Have you entertained homosexuals in your home or have you went to dinner with lesbians? I have. My Catholic sister's best friend is a homosexual. They are everywhere...they are in every workplace, etc...
God save our soul... "They are everywhere", just like rats and ants. And intolerant, ill-educated, ignorant people.
quote:but because I am in their presence does not mean I agree with how they live.
Same goes for anyone else; homosexual or not.
quote:
An aquaintance I know is having an affair and she knows its wrong, but me telling her to stop and saying its not right will not stop her. All I can do is pray and see if she will come around. It has to be her will, but I can help her will by prayer
Considering her behaviour is harming the person she is married to, I can understand your feeling. However, isn't there a moral difference, to you Jade, between having an affair and having a committed, faithful homosexual relationship?
quote]Yep and there was absolutely no problem. Like bigots, they are people after all. [/quote]
poi.. you always project yourself as anti religions on this forum. Isn't this the pot calling the kettle black.. You are guilty of harboring biogory against persons.
quote:OK, then out of curiousity, please provide chapter and verse of the NT that speaks against homosexuality. Because all the rules against it have always been provided out of the OT.
Jesus spoke of love, and accepting your neighbor, forgiving your enemies. You only seem to be able to judge and speak ill of those who don't conform to your ideal worldview.
I am in no position to judge a homosexual or anyone because this is not my place. You are confused by my post in that you think I don't like them. But I am called to share the good news of Jesus in that the Christ is coming to each one of them..He comes to persons in sickness, in sin and in despair. Christians are sent to be evangelical when we leave our Mass. So this is what I do..Those who reject what I proclaim don't have to hear or respond or post back. I do it peacefully without violence..But to say Jesus accepts the behavior of a homosexual act or lifestyle to suit the liberal view of persons own ideology is a lie and those who preach it spread an even greater lie.
Homosexuality is a form of idolatary that takes persons direction away from God.
quote:
The rejection of homosexual behavior that is found in the Old Testament is well known. In Genesis 19, two angels in disguise visit the city of Sodom and are offered hospitality and shelter by Lot. During the night, the men of Sodom demand that Lot hand over his guests for homosexual intercourse. Lot refuses, and the angels blind the men of Sodom. Lot and his household escape, and the town is destroyed by fire "because the outcry against its people has become great before the Lord" (Gen. 19:13).
Confirming this fact is the New Testament?s forceful rejection of homosexual behavior as well. In Romans 1, Paul attributes the homosexual desires of some to a refusal to acknowledge and worship God. He says, "For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. . . . Though they know God?s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them" (Rom. 1:26?28, 32).
Elsewhere Paul again warns that homosexual behavior is one of the sins that will deprive one of heaven: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9?10, NIV).
Paul comfortingly reminds us, "No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it" (1 Cor. 10:13).
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator?who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
In Romans 1:18-32, still building on the moral traditions of his forebears, but in the new context of the confrontation between Christianity and the pagan society of his day, Paul uses homosexual behaviour as an example of the blindness which has overcome humankind. Instead of the original harmony between Creator and creatures, the acute distortion of idolatry has led to all kinds of moral excess. Paul is at a loss to find a clearer example of this disharmony than homosexual relations. Finally, I Timothy 1, in full continuity with the Biblical position, singles out those who spread wrong doctrine and in verse 10 explicitly names as sinners those who engage in homosexual acts.
Timothy 1
We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,
9
with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,
10
the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, 5 kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,
11
according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
12
6 I am grateful to him who has strengthened me, Christ Jesus our Lord, because he considered me trustworthy in appointing me to the ministry.
OK, I haven't had time to read the full thread (because it is huge!), but I hope to offer a fresh perspective. Pardon me if it's already been covered.
First, I'm not going to argue about what the Bible says, because there's no point. The nature of any religion is that it is open to interpretation. There's nothing I can say about Christian doctrine that can't be rebutted with an opposite point of view, because religion is too flexible to permit unified agreement.
Anyway, we're talking about the rights of people in America. We are not a nation governed by a single religion, and we are a nation that guarantees freedom of religion, which includes the freedom to choose no religion.
Second, I am gay, and in a happy lesbian relationship of six years and standing. Just for the record and to respond to previous assumptions made, it is a relationship free from recreational drug use, alcohol abuse, or gender confusion. Neither one of us has ever committed a sex crime, neither one of us has ever cheated on each other or any other previous partner.
In case that is important to you.
And now, on with the post...
This argument always turns into a religious battle. The argument made is that gays should not marry because we are an abomination to God. As such, we offend the sanctity of marriage, which is a union before God. If we are permitted to marry, Christians have lost some value in their religion. Note that I'm not trying to interpret the Bible one way or the other; I'm simply relaying the details of that particular side of the argument. As you may imagine, I pay pretty close attention to news about gay marriage, and the argument that gay marriage threatens Christian marriage is always given as the opposition.
I submit that marriage is not a union before God. Marriage has existed since before Christianity. Marriage has been practiced in cultures that are not Christian, nor Jewish, nor any of the major world religions. Gay marriage has existed in history prior to modern times.
And in America, where we are told that gay marriage threatens the value of Christianity, atheists are permitted to marry.
It always gives me pause to take that in. I've never heard anyone argue about atheist rights. I've never heard anyone complain about the atheists, destroying the sanctity of marriage, destroying the value of Christian marriage.
And I think if you can openly admit that marriage is not a Christian institution in this nation, as evidenced by the marital rights of atheists and other non-Christians, there is only one reasonable conclusion:
People who do not want gays to marry are bigots.
Now, probably many of you already know that. But I personally get quite tired of people hiding their bigotry in their religion, as if that is a justification for it. To me, it seems cowardly and manipulative. I am exhausted of hearing "I don't hate gays, but..."
Just admit you hate gays. Really, we'd appreciate the honesty.
Also, not all Christians are like Jade. As I said, religion is a flexible thing.
I never wanted to win...but you know you will always crave whats not really good for you...Who can give up sweets forever? Not many want to. Its real hard. The pleasures of sweets are so satisfying and addicting to the taste buds. But if you detox and fast from sweets the body will no longer crave it. Disclipine in eating habits produces good health in mind, body and spirity. Tasting Nutella is a sweet euphoric experience that only last seconds. Why not try to experience a sweet euphoria that last forever?
OK, stop right there. You can go off on your diatribes and believe whatever you want to believe, but I would appreciate if you didn't make assumptions about me. You know nothing about me. How do you know that I have not experienced this "sweet euphoria that lasts forever"? Only I can know that. It is not for you to judge.
As for the Nutella... for crying out loud it's a joke. I was trying to keep things light. I don't need advice--either dietary or spiritual--from you.
in regard of Kimson's post it seems I misunderstood the term 'affair'. Sorry, in the context of this thread I thought jade meant her friend was dating a person of the same sex. Not that she was cheating anyone.
... sorry I'm French I'm not even to speak English.
shaeon: Touché. Welcome to the Asylum and thanks for the honesty your brought here.
In regards to the following quote from your post, would you please provide some more details? I followed most of what you said in your post, but I would like to know about any examples you are thinking about when you say that marriage has been practiced in cultures that are not ... [part of] any major religion.
quote: shaeon said:
Marriage has been practiced in cultures that are not Christian, nor Jewish, nor any of the major world religions.
Hyperbole - while I do not have specific examples handy, marriage is very much a concept that has spanned essentially all of human societies. The native americans, all manner of asians with no concept of the judeo-christian god, all sorts of african tribal organizations, etc.
In puritan New England, marriage was specifically a governmental affair, removed from the church.
And as shaeon more importantly mentions - the concept of marriage is one that carries on today by all manner of people, including atheists, satanists, homosexuals, pious churchgoers, low-life scumbags, and any and all other manner of person that can be thought of.
The idea that one small segment of our human population should be excluded from this concept based simply on matters of gender, while bandying about the "moral failure" of such a union is just preposterous beyond the ability to be described...
{{edit, just to clarify - hyperbole: that last part is not directed at you, and I am not implying in any way that you are suggesting otherwise....}}
In answer to Hyperbole, most cultures have marital ceremonies. Check out the link below. The article notes:
"In one form or another, marriage is found in virtually every society. The very oldest records that refer to it speak of it as an established custom. Despite attempts by anthropologists to trace its origin (and test the hypothesis of primitive promiscuity), evidence is lacking."
The article also notes that many religions have specific teachings regarding marriage. However (this is my note, not the article's), no single religion specifically owns marriage, nor is it's existance strictly religious in nature.
Thanks for the reference. It is an interesting read.
I agree with you that no one religion owns marriage. I was also interest in the point you made in your previous post about people not objecting to atheists getting married on the grounds that it diminishes the sanctity of marriage.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 10-08-2006 19:58
Atheistic homosexual polygamists.... I'm sure it's that kind of vision that has Jerry Falwell dropping to his knees. (so-to-speak)
___________________________________________________________________________
The goal in Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "holy moly what a ride!"
quote:OK, stop right there. You can go off on your diatribes and believe whatever you want to believe, but I would appreciate if you didn't make assumptions about me. You know nothing about me. How do you know that I have not experienced this "sweet euphoria that lasts forever"? Only I can know that. It is not for you to judge.
As for the Nutella... for crying out loud it's a joke. I was trying to keep things light. I don't need advice--either dietary or spiritual--from you.
Wow...this is the first time I am seeing a different side of you suho...did I hurt your feelings?...I didn't mean too....I get foul language addressed to me. I am cooked and toasted and burned all the time on this forum and it bounces off me..come on... its just a good healthy debate..shucks...I really feel bad..
Yeah I know it was a joke ...just playing around with the Nutella. Was not aiming it at you... just noting in general..sorry.
If I were given an audience of powerful Washington politicians and 30 minutes to make my case, I would give them my atheism argument. We are a country that has progressively tolerated prejudice less and less throughout our history. If I could get anyone to actually listen to me, it would become clear to many that this is just an issue of prejudice.
The only problem is, these days it is very hard to get someone to listen to you. People are so divided in their opinions, and the rules of debate have changed. One politician can now scream at another "you are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!" and that's apparently an acceptable rebuttal. Any teenager in a high school debate class can tell you it's not supposed to be that way, but it happens all the time.
Anyway, considering all of that, many thanks to those of you who did listen to what I had to say.
Wow...this is the first time I am seeing a different side of you suho...did I hurt your feelings?...I didn't mean too....I get foul language addressed to me. I am cooked and toasted and burned all the time on this forum and it bounces off me..come on... its just a good healthy debate..shucks...I really feel bad..
Yeah I know it was a joke ...just playing around with the Nutella. Was not aiming it at you... just noting in general..sorry.
I have no problem with a good healthy debate. I got the impression that you were preaching at me, though, which is something entirely different from a debate. I can take a lot of things, but having people preach at me or condemn me for something when they really know nothing about me is not one of them. This is why I try to avoid doing this to others.
My sensitivity to this comes from my experiences in Korea with "radical" Christians. I've had complete strangers come up to me and tell me what I do or do not believe. Take this conversation, for example:
Complete Stranger: Accept Jesus as your Savior!
Me: Uh, I'm a Christian.
CS: In my experience, a lot of Americans say that they are Christians when they are really not.
Me: In my experience, a lot of Korean Christians are judgmental and jump to conclusions about people they don't know.
CS: ...
I was chased around Shinchon (a university neighborhood) one night by a mob of picket-wielding Christians screaming at me that I was going to Hell, presumably because I was a white guy in Shinchon at night. Maybe it was the earring I was wearing, but I doubt they could see it in that light.
So yeah, I'm a bit sensitive about being judged and preached at. I may not be perfect, but I try to live my life through Christ. And I try my best not to go around judging others. It's hard, because I think it is human nature to judge, but I do my best in Christ.
Don't feel bad, and don't try to make me feel bad for getting offended (yeah, I caught the whole "I get crap slung at me all the time and it doesn't bother me" routine). Like I said, there's a difference between an intellectual debate and preaching at someone. But ultimately there are no hard feelings.
That's way too many words on the subject. I'll leave it alone now.
I get foul language addressed to me. I am cooked and toasted and burned all the time on this forum and it bounces off me..come on... its just a good healthy debate..shucks...
Wow. This is perhaps the most delusional thing you have ever said =)
Oh, and Suho - stop maiking excuses and skirting the issues.
I told you before, and I'll say it again. Your Nutella addiction is sending you straight to hell, and fast. Repent, before it's too late!
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-10-2006 23:22
Well, since simple testifying about the glory that is Nutella, perhaps we should take more forceful measures? Sneaking into his house to replace the peanut butter with Nutella could be a start, but we'd have to make sure that he doesn't notice until he has partaken of the holy taste.
If that doesn't work, then we might just have to up the stakes to force him (and other unbelievers) to convert to the Holy Faith of Nutella (HFN for short). Guerrilla attacks, demonstrations burning the unholy and sacriligious peanut butter (it's teh debil!) and petitions to the government to create laws enforcing the worship of Nutella across the land. Lives lived without Nutella are lives lived in sin!
Say it with me now, true believers! PRAISE THE ALMIGHTY HOLY NUTELLA!!!
.
..
...
Or we could just say forget it and keep all the Nutella for ourselves. The true believers know who's going to heaven and who's going to smother in peanut buttery hell. ;-)
Maybe we could all come together and raise money to buy a satellite so we can broadcast the goodness of Nutella world wide. Bringing word of the sweet treat to the isolated heathens.
My vote is for handing out jars in malls, airports and universities, while singing its holy praises. Strategic airdrops to isolated locales would also bring sufficient exposure to the uneducated heathens. Ooop.... gotta go - it's time to meditate before The Holy Sweetness...
quote:So yeah, I'm a bit sensitive about being judged and preached at. I may not be perfect, but I try to live my life through Christ
Thats right Suho...I can see...don't mean to patronize but your insight has always been very important to this fourm and you are always missed.. Thats why your the Master Suho.
Though to some I seem like a radical Christian...and rough around the edges, sometimes without slimies words come accross as offending... Though I make no believers from this forum, am just part of the mix that makes this site very diversified in beliefs. If we all felt the way the majority expresses themselves, it would be boring. Right?
For me I try to focus daily on compassion though I may not share homosexual sentiments, I believe even they are called by Christ in their nature to follow.
Not trying to preach..but I draw daily from these beautiful words by Christ in the famous " Sermon on the Mount"
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are they that mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God.
Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are ye, when men shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven; for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.'"
What a load of effing patronising crap, isn't it just...
The trouble with all this church deal is that one (I) feels like a right idiot at any time for doing things one should not. It is a such world of guilt, redemption, forgiveness, self-affliction and shame. Not for me, thank you very much. If people want to tie themselves to unnatural rules and emotional burdens, fair on them.
One of the main messages I, for myself, understand from my spirituality, is that life is meant to be lived - not feared.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-12-2006 17:21
?Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, martini in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming ~ WOOHOO what a ride!?
quote:jade said:Thwarting that plan is unhealthy sexual unions that don't produce, add or help to the planet. Therefore the only meaning they have is unto themselves, which is selfish love masqueraded.
So does this include opposite sex couples that can not produce? They don't "help" the planet"
What about opposite sex couples that can no longer produce? They can no longer "help" the planet?
Also is 1 produced life enough to prove that they have "helped" this planet?
Does your criteria demand a certain amount of "production" to prove that they did "help" the planet?
Maybe you had better explain what you mean by "help".
quote:jade said:Those who are not spiritually disciplined cannot find a peace.
I disagree. All humans can find "peace". Just maybe not YOUR "peace". And that's the point really. Your vision of "peace" is not the answer for everyone. Your not just voicing your opinion of homosexuals to others, you are forcing your opinion on others. And spiritually speaking your karma is in the RED.
quote:jade said:Their body dominates the mind instead of the mind dominates the body. Therefore they are always thirsty for what they think will bring them the greatest of pleasures,
This is more of a specific example of an addict than it is for the simple majority of humans. We are not all weak and lack the ability to overcome our "temptations". Be it food or sex. You are again making sweeping assumptions of all people and their actions. The use of food in an analogy is a good choice, so in that line of thinking, just because you have your recipe for chocolate cake, doesn't mean that everyone else's recipe for chocolate cake is inferior or wrong or unacceptable in the eye's of God. Why? Because Jade, YOU do not speak for him.
quote:jade said:There is no God in a homosexual union. Never will be.
I disagree. If God means anything to anyone it is that he IS love. And the love of 2 same sex parents is sometimes a feat unmatched or unequaled by opposite sex couples. Simple put oppositie sex couples do not in any way guarantee love will be in their household or their hearts or the minds. So it makes no sense to allow the guaranteed love that same sex couples can offer in rearing children simply because they are not of the "nuclear" family. It's idiotic to think that procreation with 2 people of the oppositie sex guarantees anything.
quote:jade said: Men are suppose to gratify God with their bodies in thoughts, words, and especially deeds.
First you speak for God, then you speak for Christians, now your speaking on behalf of MEN? Who are you and what horse did you ride in on?!?!? I am a man Jade and you do not speak for me. As a matter of fact I doubt you can speak for any man here! J.C., the audacity of some people! And note Jade that I didn't say women. Why? Because I can not and should not speak for the opposite sex of which I am not a part of. You should try it sometime. It does wonders to your ability to understand others/humans.
quote:jade said:Homosexual behavior is a choice.
I disagree. This statement is absolutely wrong. It is a belief based not on facts but of ignorance.
And let me say this Jade.
It may be the result of ignorance on the part of a person who presents such arguments of homosexuality because they are ignoring all cultural and socio-economic influences. Agreed?
But if after long and repeated attempts to educate that person to the big picture, that person still believes homsexuals are inferior in anyway shape or form then it seems proper to conclude that instead of that person merely holding ignorant bigotted beliefs that the person is indeed a bigot. Don't you agree?
I don't think the planet needs much "help" when it comes to making sure the humans stick around. Just based on the state of the environment, I think maybe abstaining from reproduction helps the humans more. But then, the environment is a different topic altogether.
Oh, and uh, oh yeah. Gays can reproduce. Sperm and ovaries, still intact.
In Christian marriage God in the divine plan did not intend that strength in a man and the beauty in a women should endure forever but that they should reappear in their children and to me this is where God's providence reveals itself. God sends children to protect and revive both that was from their parents. The strength and human characteristics that fades in the father is revived in the son and the beauty and charm that once once the mother's now is revived in the daughter. How many times have we heard...about my daughter...that is you all over again.. or you son is the image of you husband all over again. For us each child that is born of a christan marriage is a binding of both parents in love. In the sexual union of these Christian persons, love is made flesh and will dwell among both of them. The fruit of their union. A true marriage is a romance that last forever and in these what is revealed? The body mystery, motherhood, fatherhood which shows a mothercraft and fathercraft implemented and taught. In this the sculpting from both parents form the conscienceousness of the child. We parents are in a trusteeship under our Christian God. Christian children are on loan like a spiritual project and an extension of the fruit of much labor. And our main objective in family christian life is to make our love spread and ascend upwards.
I remember when my husband and I first married and we were so affectionate in love and we would just stare at each other all the time. Like our eyes were always glued to each other. Then after marriage when the children set in you become focus on life issues and making ends meet but then you still want to focus on the love and romance you once shared here and there, but the instensity of the love is not like it was at courtship. When the firstborn comes you see what you both produced together so the love between both of you is refreshed in another phase. The love goes deeper...the eyes that use to stare at each other in love are now staring and focused on the new soul in wornderment of what was mutually created. Life becomes sweeter. This is why economics should never affect the raising of children in how am I going to provide, because with faith God always provides. And in this becomes a new page of married life.. in the raising of children.
Shaeon
Yes, homosexuals still have the right stuff to produce thank God, but in our Christian thought the way they go about it is contrary to the nature in how our Chrisitan God created the concept of family life. Lesbian couples have to find a donor and usually pay some money if the third party is not willing to give it for free. Or go to a sperm bank and choose as if they were buying a new car by checking what kind of a maker it comes from. Homosexual men can produce sperm but have to get a female host that they would also have to pay money to. For us, this deflects the divine plan and is not Christan in thought however one wants to make it to satisfy a current family lifestyle. Clearly, if one follows Christian principles and adheres to scripture, they will see no role model in apolostic teachings who ensposued this lifestyle or spoke lovingly of it as being good, holy and pleasing to the Almghty God. Yes, we on this planet are a diversity of people in thought, customs, faiths, party lines, etc which makes this country blessed and great...but that is not to be confused with proclaiming and pushing a law to make the social family life of homosexual unions as mainstream and comparable to traditional heterosexual unions. Historically there has never been any history on same sex union societies except for our Christian biblical story of a destoryed city. I don't see a historically a same sex union producing in our culture & if they have never impacted the world in anyway as opposed to traditional unions up to this point.
I don't think you will see a future president named Scott Johnson married to Hector Gonzales with adopted children in the background ever taking his oath of office in this USof A. As we see in current or past events, homosexual parternships in govermnent are frowed upon. Look how ex-govenor McGreevy resigned because of his closeted homosexuality and here recently a Florida congressman.
The United States of America founded on Christian principles is still a Christian nation and the choosing of George W. Bush reflects it.
Good commentary from Ben Stein in case you missed it
Excuse me????
Mark Foley was a closeted practicing homosexual congressman who had relationships with men his own age and surfed the web for minors too. So he did not limit his appetites to an age group. Who is the ditwit here?
McGreevey was a govenor who was a closeted homosexual having consenting sex with men while he was married with children, with the possibility he was infecting his wife having sex with her too. During his time as govenor he roamed bathhouses, parks (like George Michael) and brief encounters in dark alleys. He was having sex with strange men he would meet at bars. He would have two hour or less encounters on many occasions. And he fell in love with a man who outted him for money because he would not give him prefered treatment meaning a permanent job with the state of New Jersey.
Now he claims on Ophra from his book that hes is finally happy and in love with a man of his dreams and they now play house somewhere and he wants to get involved with helping children. I see a flag her.
quote:Just when I thought Jade wouldn't present something mind-numbingly irrelevant, she comes through.
Well ....then why are you responding to my post if its irrevelant. Who figures????
Jade, the only point worth saying anything about in your post:
quote:but in our Christian thought the way they go about it is contrary to the nature in how our Chrisitan God created the concept of family life.
Thankfully, this is not a christian theocracy, and when it comes to enacting laws, we really don't care about what your religion says about how we should live.
It looks like I deleted my post while Jade was still working on her reply. Sorry for the confusion, folks.
quote:Mark Foley was a closeted practicing homosexual congressman who had relationships with men his own age and surfed the web for minors too. So he did not limit his appetites to an age group. Who is the ditwit here?
And? The fact that he is a pedophile is what was at issue, not that fact that he is homosexual. You were implying he represented the nation's rejection of homosexuals. It's the fact that he was pretending to fight child predators while he himself was preying on children. And the word I used was "dimwit," dimwit.
quote:
quote:Just when I thought Jade wouldn't present something mind-numbingly irrelevant, she comes through.
Well ....then why are you responding to my post if its irrevelant. Who figures????
The response you quoted from me was in direct response to the Ben Stein comments you linked to, which remain irrelevant. Completely. But the real question is why do you continue to post irrelevant drivel?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-13-2006 21:24
I remember when my significant other and I first got married to one another and we were so affectionate in love and we would just stare at each other all the time. Like our eyes were always glued to each other. Then after our marriage to each other when the children set in you become focus on life issues and making ends meet but then you still want to focus on the love and romance you once shared here and there, but the instensity of the love is not like it was at courtship. When the first child comes you see what you both have together so the love between both of you is refreshed in another phase. The love goes deeper...the eyes that use to stare at each other in love are now staring and focused on the new soul in wornderment of what is mutually had. Life becomes sweeter. This is why economics should never affect the raising of children in how am I going to provide. And in this becomes a new page of being together.. in the raising of children.
Just replaced a "few" things, to represent a homosexual pair - because that is the reality, Jade. There is absolutely no difference between your union and a homosexual union.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:I don't think you will see a future president named Scott Johnson married to Hector Gonzales with adopted children in the background ever taking his oath of office in this USof A. As we see in current or past events, homosexual parternships in govermnent are frowed upon.
And just for the record - it wasn't long ago you could replace 'homosexual' with 'black', 'jewish', 'woman', etc.
As you can see from many current political trends, it's not so far fetched to speak in terms of Female, Jewish, or Black presindents today. I don't foresee an openly gay president in the near future. There are a lot of things I don't see in the near future. It doesn't make those things wrong.
As for America being founded as a christian nation, we have covered this ad nauseum, and you are very undeniably wrong. It is not even a matter of debate - the facts are there, and can't be ignored, no matter how hard you try.
quote:WebShaman said: Just replaced a "few" things, to represent a homosexual pair - because that is the reality, Jade. There is absolutely no difference between your union and a homosexual union.
Well, at least in my relationship, no difference except for all that mushy staring at one another. Vomit!
I mean, I can be as romantic as anyone, but bleah. That's a lot of staring.
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-14-2006 20:49
What makes me want to vomit the most is Jade's conviction that a "true" marriage is one that produces children only in the natural way (missionary position only, of course!).
So a couple, any couple, that uses artificial insemination or fertility drugs or any other form of medical aid to procreate is wrong and contrary to the "Almighty God?" Or what about adoption?
Screw that. I can not have children. I tried once, it didn't work out. You know what? It doesn't make my marriage any less valid or less loving than anyone else's. My best friends have three children, and one of the greatest days of my life was when they asked me to be godmother to their youngest daughter. I got to hold her when she was only a few hours old, and marvel at the wonderous glory of a new life. I delight in seeing their kids and have realized that it's not for me. I have no desire at all to be a mother, and honestly wonder at the women who are having kids at my age or older (39+ in other words) just because they feel the mommy urge now. These friends and others of mine are all far more religious than I am, and you know what? Not a one of them has ever felt the urge to testify or claim that their lifestyle was better than anyone else's in our circle.
I'm so glad that I have nice, accepting, loving friends instead of the hypocritical, judgemental type that Jade represents.
edit - because code is hard
_____________________ coeur de feu :: Grimwell Online
Qui sème le vent récolte la tempête!
my personal opinion of homosexuality is my own.(period)
as for the state recognizing homosexual marriage and allowing them the legal benefits that come with it, fair is fair.
as for whatever church wants to recognize such a union, well, there seems to be a church for just about anything one wants to believe these days, so what?
but this
quote:The United States of America founded on Christian principles is still a Christian nation and the choosing of George W. Bush reflects it.
i don't know whether to laugh or cry
p.s. for jade -- what would you think about a homosexual hermaphrodite couple with all working parts? even though they prefer the homosex (who's zoomin' who?), not only could they have each others children, but they could both be mommy AND daddy too.
p.s. for jade -- what would you think about a homosexual hermaphrodite couple with all working parts? even though they prefer the homosex (who's zoomin' who?), not only could they have each others children, but they could both be mommy AND daddy too.
And, jsut for the record: god made them that way. What was god's plan with hermaphrodites, Jade? I am *very* curious to hear you DIRECTLY answer that one, Jade.
quote:WebShaman said: The point I was making shaeon is that homosexuals are human just like everyone else and have relationships just like everyone else.
This is what Jade is denying. She is in denial.
Just trying to lighten the mood a little. Of course, I agree with your point.
It's just hard for me to take Jade seriously. And Jade, if you care why I said that, it's because your arguments loop over on themselves, and there seems to be no forethought of logic, or research. For example, you say that there is no history of same sex unions except for in a "fallen city." I assume you are referring to the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah.
However, there have been same sex unions and marriages all throughout history, going back to ancient times, in many different cultures.
Further Jade, you spent a lot of time talking about what God's plan for Christian marriage is. But this disregards that we are in a country that does not have a national religion, and that guarantees us in the First Amendment the right to freedom of religion. In this country, two atheists, or Buddhists, or Muslims do not have to see a Christian minister and have a Christian wedding to be recognized as wed by the state. The national argument of gay marriage is whether or not the states should allow it, not whether churches should allow it.
We understand that you think gay marriage is against God. You've made that clear.
However, what a lot of us are saying is that in a nation with freedom of religion, people should have equal access to marriage.
As a side note, it's probably offensive to a few people that you are saying what God's will is. Many people consider it wrong to speak for God.
quote: shaeon said:
As a side note, it's probably offensive to a few people that you are saying what God's will is. Many people consider it wrong to speak for God.
It is, to me, very much so. Beside the patronising side of it, which makes me climb up walls, I feel it is very much blaspheming too - if I dare say, as far as my spirituality is concerned. Who on Earth do you think you are, Jade, as this question has already been raised a few times? What makes you feel like you know the Truth, beyond everyone's beliefs, education, spirituality, inner world or whatever else - note that I use "spirituality" here to avoid confusion with religion? I other words, to put it more generally as you tend to speak for the whole Universe, what makes Christians think they are above non Christians?
It really seems like you are using and twisting the words of God to impose your own opinion about things that disturb you or your education; which is very different from spreading God's words, as you describe. I think you really ought to take a step back and ask yourself whether all this intolerant stream of nonsense you pour in this forum is actually God's word, or your own.
To shaeon: I appreciate you must get greatly desperate and frustrated when being confronted to people who share Jade's pathetically narrow-minded views on life. Unfortunately, I feel that there is a weird and alarming tendency from some governments I know to mould its people into a perfectly smooth and even shape - never mind the narrow-minded.
In other words, I do think the issue here is not what Jade or anyone else thinks, but how they actually got to develop such thinking. I tend to pity narrow-minded and self-content people rather than blame them; the blame should go the government in most cases, which kills freedom of thought.
[edit] I probably went to far with blaming the governments in this matter; perhaps I should have said some communities, or organisations. Or the Church. [/edit]
quote:Who on Earth do you think you are, Jade, as this question has already been raised a few times? What makes you feel like you know the Truth, beyond everyone's beliefs, education, spirituality, inner world or whatever else - note that I use "spirituality" here to avoid confusion with religion? I other words, to put it more generally as you tend to speak for the whole Universe, what makes Christians think they are above non Christians
Who do I think I am????...well I am a Christian ( a follower of Jesus Christ). ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me". However, you want to see me is your prerogative. If you want to call me ignorant, out of touch it really doesn't matter to me. To spread the TRUTH as they, the twelve bore witness to the truth. And its been spread over centuries. For the last 2000 years we have been spreading and saying the same things over and over and over. To deny this truth to us is to cease being a Christian. There should be about 2 billion or so out there living not deceased Christians evangelizing like me....I am pretty sure most Buddhist, Muslims, etc believe the same way about homosexuality as the Christians..So where have you been most or your adult life when you began to reason about Christianity. This is what Christians do...they follow the way of Christ per scripture and 2000 years of religious thought by great scholars, theologians, etc. Yeah ...I am Christ speaking for the whole planet and beyond the universe because that is what Christians do. There cannot be many truths in regard to God. Christians do not believe they are better or more special in the eyes of God. That is not the Christian way. The Christian way is humility, love, compassion, forgiveness.
If you want to separate spirituality apart from religion, you are free do so in what you are guided by spiritually for you. Christians are guided by Christ and are compelled by the Holy spirit to spread his message everywhere on this planet. An organized Christian religion has shaped our civilization to what it is now. Without Christianity no telling what kind of western civilization we would be in up to this point. Hospitals, colleges and great institutions, movements of learning were started by Christian organizations. So I don't see a problem with putting some structure in spiritual thought and forming a religion. Unorganized spiritual thought doesn't impact anyone but yourself. What would be the purpose? To me..no man is an island but a part of everyone else. The greater impact of spiritual warfare is done in great numbers and an outcome is achieved.
You come across as feeling correct in your way of thinking as opposed to me...so what makes you right and me wrong? Why do you feel you hold the key to understanding homosexual matters. Ifs it because your one, that does not mean you know more that I.
We as Christians believe that all nations in spiritual organized thought will be one because this is a part of our biblical revelations. If you want to believe this is a far-fetched view, you are free to do so.
You can tell Christians to keep their God to themselves, they will not do so. Besides those who think its ok to practice homosexuality, are not the majority and references made to those who are not in favor of this lifestyle are not from the dark ages. They are your neighbors.
quote:Without Christianity no telling what kind of western civilization we would be in up to this point. Hospitals, colleges and great institutions, movements of learning were started by Christian organizations.
quote:Who do I think I am????...well I am a Christian ( a follower of Jesus Christ). ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me".
Funny, I don't remember Christ telling his followers to rejoice in the persecution of others.
quote:jade said: Yes!!!!
Great news.
Do you think that Christ would have said the following words?
quote:"Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with his arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix."
This was the argument by Christians in the south opposing interracial marriage. Something that was illegal in many southern states until the Supreme Court declared the laws unconstitutional in 1967.
The only reason that politicians are pushing for bans on gay marriage is for political gain. At least one politician that I know of has stated that banning gay marriage is the most important issue in the nation right now. Where are they living? Under a rock? How about a war in Iraq and Afghanistan? How about homelessness, AIDS, the sad state of our education system, the economy, crime, loss of freedoms and civil rights, unemployment, health care, drugs.
If they were only doing it because it was the "Christian thing to do" I would hope they would be focusing on things more in line with the teachings of Christ. You know, like feeding the hungry, etc, etc. All of the millions of dollars spent on fighting to ban gay marriage could be put to so many better uses, don't you think?
What about the people out in the streets protesting gay marriage. What if they were to focus on something more productive instead. For example tutoring children at underperforming schools, helping out habitat for humanity build houses, working in a soup kitchen, starting youth programs, you get the idea.
quote: jade said:
Who do I think I am????...well I am a Christian ( a follower of Jesus Christ). ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me". However, you want to see me is your prerogative. If you want to call me ignorant, out of touch it really doesn't matter to me. To spread the TRUTH as they, the twelve bore witness to the truth. And its been spread over centuries. For the last 2000 years we have been spreading and saying the same things over and over and over. To deny this truth to us is to cease being a Christian. There should be about 2 billion or so out there living not deceased Christians evangelizing like me....
Well, you see, this is something I find hard to believe: how can you be certain, for a start, that Jesus Christ's very words are still the same as when he first spoke them? How can I be certain, that what millions and millions of people over 2000 years have not been twisting his words? Even in our scale of human beings at this very moment, it is well known that a piece of information hardly remains intact when passed on and on. How can you, Christians, be absolutely sure that the meaning of Christ's word has not been altered through translations, word of mouth and so on?
For me, the whole argumentation falls apart as soon as it implies other beings, not God Himself. I do believe in the fact that God might be speaking to people, and find this concept absolutely wonderful, although it never happened to me. But how can I trust a text that has been translated over and over before getting to me for a start?
quote: jade said:
I am pretty sure most Buddhist, Muslims, etc believe the same way about homosexuality as the Christians..
Are you absolutely certain about this?
quote: jade said:
So where have you been most or your adult life when you began to reason about Christianity.
Is this a question? You will have to explain this one to me.
quote: jade said:
This is what Christians do...they follow the way of Christ per scripture and 2000 years of religious thought by great scholars, theologians, etc.
Beside what poi and Nathus said about this which I totally agree with, remember that the Church is probably one of the most corrupted institution too. I will try and find examples to illustrate this later on.
quote: jade said:
Unorganized spiritual thought doesn't impact anyone but yourself.
This is probably why I chose not to agree with and join a Church that allowed arrogance, murders, hatred and persecution for the last 2000 years.
quote: jade said:
What would be the purpose? To me..no man is an island but a part of everyone else. The greater impact of spiritual warfare is done in great numbers and an outcome is achieved.
I do agree with your first statement, but not, again, with the Church's ways of achieving outcome.
quote: jade said:
You come across as feeling correct in your way of thinking as opposed to me...so what makes you right and me wrong? Why do you feel you hold the key to understanding homosexual matters. Ifs it because your one, that does not mean you know more that I.
I think what you feel like my coming across as feeling correct is actually my way of making a point of trying to understand anyone's feelings and beliefs, regardless of their religious appartenance, "race" (how I hate that word), and cultural origin. I do think, however, that I am freer than you in making my own opinions about a critical range of topics. And definitely more open minded, as are most other people in the Asylum, Christians or not.
FYI I am heterosexual, but do understand from the deepest of my soul and heart how people can fall in love with another soul, female or male. Love is that fantastic that you can actually love anyone, in any way. Why, tell me why would you like to put a barrier to love?
quote: jade said:
We as Christians believe that all nations in spiritual organized thought will be one because this is a part of our biblical revelations. If you want to believe this is a far-fetched view, you are free to do so.
In theory I think there is nothing wrong with this concept, in an ideal world. However, it has never been and will never be a suitable solution for a world like ours, as your religion has no way to provide satisfaction for each and every ethnic on Earth.
quote: jade said:
Besides those who think its ok to practice homosexuality, are not the majority and references made to those who are not in favor of this lifestyle are not from the dark ages. They are your neighbors.
Again, and again Jade, as it has been pointed out to you so many times: the belief of a majority is not necessarily THE TRUTH.
*********
To extand a bit this debate, I would like to ask everyone's views about this: how is physical attraction linked to love?
quote:Funny, I don't remember Christ telling his followers to rejoice in the persecution of others.
How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations? As humans apart from their sexual preferences they are equal to me. I relate to this part of them always.
The Christian way is humility, love, compassion, forgiveness.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:Yes Jade, WE are aware of this. Unfortunately, you are not.
I guess that makes you a Christian only in word, not deed.
Come on ..Web..your guilty of judging my character as I am not a Christian? Just because I speak against homosexuality does not
make me a bad person in cahoots with intolerance. I could say your intolerant of Christians or me so how does that make you different
in how you accuse me.
quote:FFS Jade get your facts straight!
First hospitals were founded ~290 BC, and the first school/university ~2250 BC if you consider the Shangyang school, or ~385 BC for Plato's academy.
This is from Wikipedia regarding the history of western civilization:
After the fall of Rome much of Greco-Roman art, literature, science and even technology were lost. Europe fell into political anarchy, with many warring kingdoms and principalities, and evolved into feudalism. The Greek and Roman paganism was essentially completely replaced by Christianity. Roman Catholic Christianity served as a unifying force in Western Europe, and in some respects replaced or competed with the secular authorities. Art and literature, law, education, and politics all fell into its sway. The Church founded many cathedrals, monasteries and seminaries, some of which evolved into today's universities and colleges. In the Medieval period, the route to power for many men was in the Church.
It actively encouraged the spreading of Christianity, which also helped to spread early Western culture. Owing to the influence of Arab culture?a culture that had preserved the knowledge of ancient Greece and Rome?in Moorish Spain and in the Levant during the Crusades, Western Europe rediscovered its Greek heritage in the 1300s, and the Renaissance was born. From the early 15th century to the early 17th century Western culture began to be spread throughout the world by intrepid explorers and missionaries in the Age of Discovery.
PS: This includes astronomy which continues today in that the RC church has the largest most advanced telescope in the world and continues to name galaxies, finds, etc.
And the concept of achieving degrees in education came from the Roman Catholic Christian Church as well. The concept of hospitals was first founded by the Roman catholic church the missionaries, nuns, etc
From: Out on the Sea of Madness... Insane since: Dec 2003
posted 10-17-2006 17:57
quote:jade said:
How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations? As humans apart from their sexual preferences they are equal to me. I relate to this part of them always.
Are you really this dense, or is it an act based on internet anonyminity?
You say that as humans, homosexuals are equal to you, yet you want to forbid them the right to marry and form legal unions with each other. You are fobidding them a basic societal right available to everyone else in the country, purely based on the gender of their significant other. That is persecution, pure and simple. Earlier in the thread you linked "studies" on how homosexuals are alcohol depressives with death wishes or something equally retarded. That would fall under propagating false information about them that is damaging and hurtful.
quote:jade said:
Come on ..Web..your guilty of judging my character as I am not a Christian? Just because I speak against homosexuality does not make me a bad person in cahoots with intolerance. I could say your intolerant of Christians or me so how does that make you different in how you accuse me.
He is judging your character based on what you have posted here in this thread and in others on this forum. We only have the words you use to express yourself, and frankly, he's not the only one that's come to that conclusion. My guess is that WS is intolerant of the idiocy that you continually express without apparently thinking, really thinking, about what you are saying. Jesus went among the sick, the diseased, the unclean, the scum of the earth to spread his gospel. He didn't just spread the Word to those who were societally acceptable to the culture of his time, and it shocked his apostles several times that the Son of God would associate with pariahs. J
esus was about forgiveness and acceptance, and he practiced his own teachings. He accepted others, and taught them when they asked for guidance, but he did not force his views on anyone that was unwilling to accept them. He even forgave those who crucified him "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." Your words here don't follow those teachings. Your words here show how intolerant you are of anyone that doesn't fit into your perfect worldview of Christianity.
Why is your love for your spouse pure and holy and acceptable because he is male and the love of two people wrong and unholy and unacceptable because they are the same gender? Love is recognizing your soulmate. Another soul that completes yours, and forms something greater than the two of you. It's a joining. Who are you to say that the souls of two men or two women aren't meant to become one? Who are you to say that God didn't allow these souls to meet and recognize each other, no matter what physical form they occupy? The soul is part of God's divinity expressed in our human form, and you have no right to say whether or not those two souls belong together or not, just because you don't like the flesh they are encased in.
As for your Wikipedia example, I'll have to let someone else rebut that. You seem to assume that because the Church was a vehicle for the expansion of Western Civilization, that means it was a good thing. In the Middle Ages, the church was probably more a political machine than it was a religious one. Many men went into the priesthood because it was a path to secular power wrapped up in a religous coating. There was so much happening on many levels at that time. It wasn't just the church expanding and generously helping to promote activities you mentioned. You can't look at them in a vaccuum without looking at what was happening to society as a whole at that time (or at the time the bible was "originally" written for that matter).
How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations?
Oh now *this* is rich.
You don't consider it persecution when people are banned from living their lives soley because of who they are, or when you fight against their legal rights, and tout as great the belittling of them as a people and their subjugation as somehow less worthy as you.
Your arrogance and slef-righteousness are boundless, and if only for the sake of being able to see your eternal fate, I *WISH* your religion was true...
quote:PS: This includes astronomy which continues today in that the RC church has the largest most advanced telescope in the world and continues to name galaxies, finds, etc.
And the concept of achieving degrees in education came from the Roman Catholic Christian Church as well. The concept of hospitals was first founded by the Roman catholic church the missionaries, nuns, etc
Right.
Are you so much in denial that you can't even read ?
The first hospitals were founded around 290 BC. Also the last time I checked the VLT did not belong to the RC church.
quote:Your arrogance and slef-righteousness are boundless, and if only for the sake of being able to see your eternal fate, I *WISH* your religion was true...
Because you would burn baby
Typical athiest response...
maybe I will burn in hell and maybe I won't. I don't know my fate. You being athiest, I would not even think to judge you as a person in how you treat other humans.
One thing for sure is I and many other Christian brethern would never even presume to say or even think homosexuals are going to hell. This is anti-Christ mentallity.
I think the really narrow minded are yourselves in your narrow perspective about Christians and how you want to perceive the way they persecute homosexuals. The way you come accross is very uneducated in the Christian way. In-tolerance is very evident among you. Per scripture, "it is easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven". Same is true for the an intolerant bigoted person, so why would I want to be this way regarding humanity. But tolerance of the homosexual lifestyle as it being good and healthy is very un-Christian adn anti-christian. Those who say they are Christian but embrace homosexualtiy are in misguided in Christian thought. Or they are not living a true Chrisitan way. What would Christ say, "love the person who chooses to live against my will, but hate what they do"...because I want to live in them and they live in me becasue my ways are not your ways, but my fathers in heaven"
Do we respect a persons will? yes..but do we have to agree with the will?...no.
Are they, the homosexuals living the way they want? Yes!
So. How am I stopping them? By force? No. I do it by prayer. Peaceful prayer. Quit thowing stones. If you want to continue to live in a secular world..so be it for yourselves..Your ideologies don't dictate that you spread and fight for the homosexual agenda.. But my ideolgoy says speak of the good news in Jesus Christ. Maybe some of you all have or had homosexual tendencies as well or maybe some of you are bi-sexual since I have read so much passion from your post regarding them. Or maybe some have had a homosexual encounter. Who knows. Seems that those who cry the loudest have some issues deep down if you do not profess to act as homosexual.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 10-18-2006 16:42
quote:He is judging your character based on what you have posted here in this thread and in others on this forum. We only have the words you use to express yourself, and frankly, he's not the only one that's come to that conclusion. My guess is that WS is intolerant of the idiocy that you continually express without apparently thinking, really thinking, about what you are saying. Jesus went among the sick, the diseased, the unclean, the scum of the earth to spread his gospel. He didn't just spread the Word to those who were societally acceptable to the culture of his time, and it shocked his apostles several times that the Son of God would associate with pariahs. J
esus was about forgiveness and acceptance, and he practiced his own teachings. He accepted others, and taught them when they asked for guidance, but he did not force his views on anyone that was unwilling to accept them. He even forgave those who crucified him "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do." Your words here don't follow those teachings. Your words here show how intolerant you are of anyone that doesn't fit into your perfect worldview of Christianity.
Exactly!
So in answer...
quote:Do we respect a persons will?, yes..but do we have to agree with the will?...no.
Are they, the homosexuals living the way they want? Yes!
So. How am I stopping them? By force? No. I do it by prayer. Peaceful prayer. Quit thowing stones.. If you want to continue to live in a secular world..so be it for yourselves..Your ideologies don't dictate that you spread and fight for the homosexual agenda.. But my ideolgoy says speak of the good news in Jesus Christ. Maybe some of you all have or had homosexual tendencies as well or maybe some of you are bi-sexual since I have read so much passion from your post regarding them Or maybe some have had a homosexual encounter. Who knows. Seems that those who cry the loudest have some issues deep down if you do not profess to be act as homosexual.
You make yourself guilty in that you are supporting those that would prevent people from joining together in marriage, Jade. You have said so yourself. It is not for YOU to judge these things - nor your religion. According to your religion, it is up to your God to do so.
So let your God do the judging, and concentrate yourself upon devoting your life to it, and LEAVE OTHERS ALONE!
So why are you and people like you standing in the way of others joining together in marriage? Marriage doesn't even have anything to do with your religion (although you seem to like it to be so)! It existed before, now during, and will after your religion has vanished from existance. One does not even require a Priest to get married, for crying out loud! It is a LEGAL BINDING and that is all.
You also seem to forget that I was once a Christian (for a period of over 10 years, to be exact - and practicing). It is directly due to people like you that I quit (not to mention the Church itself) - those like you hide behind the veil of religion to persecute and judge others. Your Church has used just such practices against my People, had them slaughtered, and judged them as not even being human! Your Church is a laughingstock! No God-inspired organisation could make such a fundamental error.
After I became educated, and really started dwelving into the history of my People, it became apparent just how ugly the Church is and has been to my People. And quite frankly, I have been much happier with myself and life since leaving the Christian Religion behind me.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Ahh, pot...kettle...black? Most of the people here simply have an intolerance for intolerance. Nobody would be attacking your religion if you weren't using that religion as a means and excuse for trying to control the way other people live.
quote:Same is true for the an intolerant bigoted person, so why would I want to be this way regarding humanity.
Seems to me you already are this way. You believe homosexuality is wrong and you want government to regulate their behavior.
quote:But tolerance of the homosexual lifestyle as it being good and healthy is very un-Christian adn anti-christian.
Bullshit. I'll tell you what anti-Christian is. It is using force, through government proxy or otherwise, to make others behave and live their lives the way you deem appropriate.
quote:So. How am I stopping them? By force? No. I do it by prayer. Peaceful prayer.
So you don't advocate govenment regulations on a union of two people of the same sex? That IS force, whether you do it directly or in your voting practices matters not, the end result is the same.
quote:But my ideolgoy says speak of the good news in Jesus Christ.
Then do so, and stop judging and trying to control other people's lives.
Bet you are still a Bush supporter too, waving your little slave-made plastic flag you bought at super Wal-Mart and blindly chanting "God bless America" while we ravage the world in the War of Terorism and lose all our basic and fundamental rights here at home.
Jade - what you are failing to understand is that by your stance, you are denying a freedom to a group of people. We understand that your faith denounces the acts of homosexuality. The US is not, however, a Christian nation. We have a lot of Christians living in the US, that is a is true. But there is no state-sanctioned religion. As such, we cannot enact laws based on the dictates of a religion. It would be akin to the federal government making a law against consuming pork.
Are there some laws which have counterparts in religous dogma? Yes. Does that make the law religious? No. Religion and government can run concurrently. They do not have to intertwine. The state does not require that churches recognize state marriages. No one is saying that the Catholic Church has to recognize a gay marriage as a marriage. You have the freedom to practice your beliefs, allow others the courtesy to practice theirs, whether you agree with it or not.
Our society may not be quite ready for state-approved gay unions. That doesn't mean that day won't come. The issue has less to do with "traditional family structure" than you think, jade. Yes, there are homosexual couples that would like to raise children. But the issue is so much more than that. It is about two people having the same legal status and rights as a traditionally married couple. Mundane things like filing taxes jointly, being a beneficiary of insurance policies, receiving social security benefits, health-club memberships... Think of all the non-religious things you are involved in where you've had to answer if you're married or not - and the benefits derived from that marriage. That is what the issue of gay marriage is about. The rights and responsibilities of two people vowing commitment to one another.
Those who cry loudest, jade, have no deeper issues than simply desiring equal rights under the law.
Bet you are still a Bush supporter too, waving your little slave-made plastic flag you bought at super Wal-Mart and blindly chanting "God bless America" while we ravage the world in the War of Terorism and lose all our basic and fundamental rights here at home
Very well said! I am afraid so:
quote: Jade said:
The United States of America founded on Christian principles is still a Christian nation and the choosing of George W. Bush reflects it.
Now this is going so far that it is giving me nightmares.
Unfortunately, not much can be done for people who cannot think for themselves.
quote:Jade said: How am I persecuting homosexuals? Am I torturing them?...throwing stones at them. Talking bad about how they treat one another as humans? How am I damaging their reputations? As humans apart from their sexual preferences they are equal to me. I relate to this part of them always.
If you'll go back and look at some of your posts, just your stereotyping alone should show that you do not feel that gays are equal to you. You openly state that we are all depressed, bitter, mentally troubled, addicts, bad parents, and gender confused. That is just untrue.
Note that I haven't made any blanket statements about Christians - because I don't believe stereotyping is right, and because I'm fully aware that not all Christians are the same. But it is hard to respect you, Jade, when you stereotype me while I'm being open-minded enough not to stereotype you.
quote:Jade said: ALL CHRISTIANS SPEAK FOR CHRIST.....This is what Christ told his followers to do. " Anyone who hears you..hears me".
Not all Christians are evangelical. And again, this is because the Bible can be interpreted in many ways, and many Christians do not believe that they are the living word of God. If this is what "Christians" (I'm assuming you mean all Christians when you make these blanket statements?) believe, then are Episcopalians not really Christians? How about theologians who believe that texts in the Bible that condemn homosexuality are being misread and misinterpreted?
quote:Maybe some of you all have or had homosexual tendencies as well or maybe some of you are bi-sexual since I have read so much passion from your post regarding them. Or maybe some have had a homosexual encounter. Who knows. Seems that those who cry the loudest have some issues deep down if you do not profess to act as homosexual.
You and Joseph McCarthy would've gotten along splendidly.
"Don't agree with my witch hunt on homos? You must be a homo, too!"
quote:Seems that those who cry the loudest have some issues deep down if you do not profess to act as homosexual.
As a side note, Jade - In a sense you are correct. However, if you are at all familiar with human psychology and behavior, you will know that it is the people who decry the activity in question, and persecute the people in question, who tend to have the deep-seated issues that they are in strong denial over.
As I alluded to many mnay posts ago in this thread.
The fact that your reaction to homosexuality is so vehement says an awful lot about a deeper conflict within you.
Apologies for veering off topic here, but this caught my eye...
quote:maybe I will burn in hell and maybe I won't. I don't know my fate.
You must be reading a different Bible than the one I have, Jade, because last time I checked it said that we could be certain of our fate. I'm going to assume that you're a little punch drunk from the beating you've been taking here and said that without thinking.
Speaking of taking a beating, may I respectfully suggest that you withdraw from the field of battle? I realize that you believe you are speaking for Christ, but I think it is pretty evident that your attempts at communication are not succeeding. I'm thinking in particular of 2 Timothy 2:24 right now--this thread long ago crossed the line into quarreling.
Ok..Suho..I will withdraw only cause you asked me to and your the Master. And your right..getting no where, but you know it helps me to rant ..because when I rant on I think of faith matters.
In our Christian teachings our church teaches we don't & will never know our fate.
In Protestant teachings they teach already saved because of the crucifixion. Once saved...always saved. Catholic teachings are opposed to this thought.
Regarding the scripture you noted, Suho..do you believe in this very deeply? I do too.
24And the Lord?s servant* must not be quarrelsome but kindly to everyone, an apt teacher, patient, 25correcting opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth, 26and that they may escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.*
Ok.. not trying to preach to anyone...just sharing some of the whys from scriptureon why we believe we do not know our fate. I leave you this and sign off on this post. Thank you all for your responses. Though we differ. I do not condem or judge anyone asn it is not my place.
Scripture teaches that one?s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31?46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to eternal light. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to eternal darkness.
The truth is that in one sense we are all redeemed by Christ?s death on the cross.. all Christians, Jews, Muslims, even animists in the darkest forests (1 Tim. 2:6, 4:10, 1 John 2:2) but our individual appropriation of what Christ provided is contingent on how we respond.
Regarding the issue of whether we Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of our actions, consider this warning Paul gave us: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God?s kindness to you, PROVIDED you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26?29, 2 Pet. 2:20?21).
?These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you MAY (Not Do) know that you have eternal life, and that you May continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).
The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ?Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven? (Matt. 7:21)."
But bible only christians do not believe this. They say since Christ already died your a shoe in with your green card into the heavenly gates.
Such an individual was Paul, writing at the end of his life, "I have fought the good fight, (Why does Paul say you have to fight), I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that Day" (2 Tim. 4:7-8). But earlier in life, even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me (1 Cor. 4:4). This in contrary to what bible christians state. They are their own judges in stating they are already saved by the blood of the cross. Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God?s grace. Nevertheless, he points out that, however much confidence in his own salvation he may be warranted in feeling, even he cannot be infallibly sure either of his own present state or of his future course.
For example, Philippians 2:12 says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." This is not the language of self-confident assurance. Our salvation is something that remains to be worked out. Because Paul says we should aways fear as if being afraid we will not merit eternal life. Does this sound like we should know. our fate?
In my faith...we have saints we try to emulate. Not that they felt they were already shoe-ins assured of salvation, because even they were humble about their salvation. If one would of asked Mother Theresa of Calcutta if she was sure she was going straight to heaven..she would of said no, but that she hoped God would forgive her of her failings to the poor as if she did not do enough fo them. We try to emulate her works as a saintly person who tried to do Gods will.
This is our way ..humility...
Just letting you know why our religion thinks this way and I may not have done a very good job of explaining why we are humble about our fate. Just because some may not understand us in our ways of faith.
I understand what you are trying to say regarding salvation. Not all Protestant denominations teach "permanent salvation." I was raised in a denomination that does, but I have since come to question this teaching. But even though I agree with you that we can not know what future state we find ourselves in, it cannot be denied that the Bible makes promises--if we do this, then this will happen--and that one of those promises is salvation. I also disagree with your interpretation of I John 5:13. The word "may" here does not mean "maybe"--it is not an indication of uncertainty, it is an indication of capability. That is, "may" may (can) be replaced with "can." In other words: "I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you can (will be able to) know that you have eternal life."
This could be (and has been, for centuries) argued back and forth, but at the least I think you will agree with me when I say this: God is true to his promises, and if we are faithful then he is faithful.
I have to say, though, that I am glad this is over now. I hope future discussions will be more productive.
From: The Land of one Headlight on. Insane since: May 2001
posted 01-10-2007 03:46
......<lmao>. Helluva shovel you got there. =)
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"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying that I approved of it." Mark Twain
I don't really have anything to add to this post except this jade fellow is a total boner. I know I'm not supposed to make attacks on the people who own up to incredibly stupid opinions, but I don't really care.
posted 07-07-2006 18:17
)
please lets not be hypocrites....its good to argue but i think there some boudaries we shoudnt cross...am sure all of you deep down know being GAY is wrong
::cell::
wtf did u c me raise up my hand...takes off like a rocket on seeing Suho approach
