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countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 11-24-2006 18:44

Ok, so I am not a Techie. I don't build PCs, or download music or games. But is the following configuration a good deal for someone doing a bit of graphics?

Many thanks for your time and wisdom.

Country Boy
............................................................................................
1 Dimension E521,Athlon 64 X2 3800+ (2.00GHz, 512Kx2)

1 1GB DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz

1 Dell USB Keyboard

1 Dell USB 2-button mouse

1 Video ready w/o Monitor, DIM X2
1 256MB nVidia GeForce 7300LE TurboCache

1 160GB SATA II Hard Drive (7200RPM)

1 3.5in Floppy Drive

1 Microsoft Windows XP Professional,Service Pack 2, English

1 Dell Owners Manual installed on your system,click on icon after system set-up to access

1 Backup media for XP Pro Dimension E521

1 Mouse included in Dell Wireless or Bluetooth Package

1 Integrated NIC card

1 56K PCI Data Fax Modem

1 Adobe Acrobat Reader 7.0

1 16X DVD+/-RW Drive

1 Sonic Cineplayer

1 Roxio Creator Basic/MyDVD Basic

1 Integrated Audio

1 2 Year Limited Warranty

1 Dell Hardware Warranty PlusOnsite Service, Initial Year

1 Type 3- Third Party At Home Service, 24x7 Technical Support, Initial Year

1 Dell Hardware Warranty PlusOnsite Service, Extended Year

1 Type 3- Third Party At Home Service, 24x7 Technical Support, 1 Year Extended

1 Warranty Support,Initial Year

1 Warranty Support,1 Year Extended
1 You have chosen a Vista Capable System
1 Express Upgrade to Windows Vista Business, Free plus S and H at payable at redemption

* 1 -DISCOUNT/COUPON APPLIED


Subtotal: $688.00
Shipping & Handling: $0.00
Tax: $50.76

Total Price w/Discounts: $738.76

mas
Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: the space between us
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 11-24-2006 19:35

the system is quite ok, especially for that price. BUT i would go with more ram!

The Space Between Us | My Blog: lukas.grumet.at

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 11-25-2006 14:57

I respect the fact that other people have other needs but since I don't do music, or gaming, or heavy graphics is there a need for me to have more memory as you have suggested?

Thanks.

Country Boy

mas
Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: the space between us
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 11-25-2006 15:38

yes. first of all you are planning to do a bit of graphics, right? i dunno what that means, but if you are talking of software like photoshop or 3d studio max, then you are always better off with more ram. programs like these eat ram.
oh, and the most important thing: Windows Vista is just around the corner. and the MINIMUM requirement is 1gb of ram. seriously, would you really like to go with the minimum requirements of an operating system?

The Space Between Us | My Blog: lukas.grumet.at

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 11-25-2006 18:11

mas,

Thanks for your feed back. As I said I -Am- No- Techie so still have lots to learn......

Yes, I run Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator and I know they eat ram and that Vista is around the corner. However I am still puzzled by how much ram. I am not interested in a hot rod of a computer but more a Toyota Camry sort of thing. Camrys to my mind are dependable, boring, and get the job done without being flashy. I cannot afford flashy.....$ is a definite factor in the decision making process...so that is why I own a Toyota Camry.

I also note that Microsoft says in some of its adverts that Vista requires 521 gb or mg or whatever of ram to
run, but I guess there are many different definitions of the the word 'to run." So I guess I remain puzzled by it all.

Thanks again.

Country Boy

WarMage
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Rochester, New York, USA
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 11-25-2006 20:12

I agree with the RAM statement.

Get 2 gig if you can.

With my new system I have the Core2 Duo with 2 Gig of Ram and it is doing very well for me. My bottle necks in performance are not related as much to CPU or Memory with this setup, but more with disk access and network bandwidth. If you have to accept some bottle necks that is where you would want them to be.

Dan @ Code Town

Nemesis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Uranus
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 11-25-2006 21:24

I just purchased roughly the exact same system except it has a 250 gig drive, a 20" LCD monitor and included a printer. It cost me $699 Canadian.

I am more than happy with it, and although 2 gigs of ram would be nicer, 1 gig is more the sufficient.

Even though I get a free upgrade to Vista, I am not sure I am going to use it.

Jason

Xel
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: NY, USA
Insane since: Nov 2002

posted posted 11-25-2006 21:42

...Why not get the 1 GB for starters and get another if you feel like you need it... or when Vista comes out..? Not sure why people would recommend you start with 2 GB off the bat.. (Always stuck to low RAM and grabbed a little extra when I needed it and it was a smidge cheaper)

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 11-25-2006 23:28

Many thanks to everyone for the feedback.

I am especially interested in the fact that Jason got a free upgrade but may not use it. I too get an upgrade but may not use it because I always view the Microsoft release of anything as being not an Alpha but a Beta release. Jason, could you tell me your reason?

Thanks again to everyone.

Country Boy

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

posted posted 11-26-2006 00:23

Sort of an aside, but I recommend wiping the disk and reinstalling the OS if it comes preinstalled. Dell puts some really annoying crap on their PCs/

...and when I say reinstall the OS, I don't mean put in Dell's system disks and reinstalling everything that came preinstalled Just install a basic Windows and you'll be much happier in the long run.

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 11-26-2006 00:26

reisio

many thanks reisio for the guidance. could you be a bit more specific re the problem with "annoying crap" that you refer to?

thanks.

country boy

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 11-26-2006 00:53

Damn you American people and your cheap PCs! I have to amdit that I build my own whenever I possibly can, and a similar ssytem over here could easily end up costing me $1500


Justice 4 Pat Richard

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

posted posted 11-26-2006 02:15
quote:
countryboy said:

could you be a bit more specific re the problem with "annoying crap" that you refer to?


Mostly things like silly offers like AOL and really horrible DVD players (WinDVD, InterActual, etc.) that suck beyond imagination and try their best to monopolize file type associations (and even reinstall themselves sometimes). You can always get rid of it all without reinstalling, I just tend to prefer completely untainted.

quote:
Skaarjj said:

Damn you American people and your cheap PCs! I have to amdit that I build my own whenever I possibly can, and a similar ssytem over here could easily end up costing me $1500


Wow. How does that work? I would think even having a prebuilt system shipped from Japan or the US wouldn't cost &#8776;$1000 (on top of the actual cost).

mas
Maniac (V) Mad Librarian

From: the space between us
Insane since: Sep 2002

posted posted 11-26-2006 13:04
quote:
Jason, could you tell me your reason?


well, maybe because of the ram

The Space Between Us | My Blog: lukas.grumet.at

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 11-29-2006 13:38

Wow, Skaarj - $1500!! I could build that for a lot less than that in the UK, though I would have trouble beating Dell's price over here.

I agree, that machine is "OK", and that extra RAM would be preferable for Photoshopping - the graphics card is also "OK" but not so important (uprating this would only be of benefit for gaming).

My only quibble with it would be that it is, in fact, a Dell. Their prices are generally good, but as also pointed out above, I would immediately rebuild the OS my way rather than use Dell's pre-build. I've had issue previously with Dell's consumer-end build quality (hardware), though more-so with laptops than with desktops.

Likely, this has all been said, but you know me and my spare change by now. My tuppence-worth and all that.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

Nemesis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Uranus
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 11-29-2006 17:23
quote:

countryboy said:

Jason, could you tell me your reason?



I swore to myself a long time ago that Windows 2000 would be the last Microsoft OS I would use before jumping to Linux. I am a bit of a hypocrite because I have been using XP with this new system (although its my first install of XP), but I plan on wiping and reinstalling soon.

I don't see any positives to jumping to Vista. The promises of new bells and whistles far outweigh the probability of new headaches, security problems, and resources taken from the computer.

I play games on my consoles, use notepad for web development, and browse the internet with Firefox. The most taxing thing I use is photoshop, and it didn't annoy me on my slower p4 with 1/2 a gig of ram, so running it on this system is pure candy to me. Doubling the ram would make it even better, but I can do that some time down the road. Its fine as it is right now.

I must be getting old, because I used to only build my own systems and always aimed for just below the latest and greatest. I cannot build this system for this cheap, which is ultimately why I bought it. For the price, who cares if some things might be slightly lacking. Its far better than what I was using, and that was doing me perfectly fine.

And I have to admit, there is a huge appeal to just plugging it in that I have never enjoyed before. Although, definitely do a clean install without all the hidden crap. You also can find similar systems from Compaq, HP, Acer and of course Dell for roughly the same cash.

Jason

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

posted posted 11-30-2006 04:17

resio: I migfht be able to buy a pre-built from overseas for less than $1500. Maybe, if the conversion to Australian dollars is favourable. But then I also have the problem of return to base warranties (overseas return to base? ew) and shipping and insurance on top of it. Plus for the fact that, well, it'd be prebuilt, and I avoid pre-built desktops like the plague.


Justice 4 Pat Richard

reisio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Florida
Insane since: Mar 2005

posted posted 11-30-2006 05:26

Sounds like there's money to be made by doing PC hardware manufacturing in Australia.

Nemesis
Bipolar (III) Inmate

From: Uranus
Insane since: Aug 2003

posted posted 11-30-2006 05:51
quote:

Nemesis said:

The promises of new bells and whistles far outweigh the probability of new headaches, security problems, and resources taken from the computer.



That should be "are far outweighed by". I should stick to lurking.

Jason

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 11-30-2006 12:45

lol - good point. Reads as "would rather have new headaches for the benefit of bells and whistles"... but I think we all know what he meant. I think it'll be a long time before I even sniff at Vista. Everything I've read about it makes me think I'd rather have my teeth pulled than make the leap from XP to Vista. Perhaps I should follow the crowd (here, at least) and make use of Linux instead of gritting my teeth and putting up with M$ BS - but old habits die hard...

Quick note: I would rather go with an HP machine than Dell. I have been assured that Dell have improved their product quality over time, but extensive experience with HP business machines along with the odd bad experience with various Dell machines leads me to side with HP in the quality department.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

Arthemis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Milky Way
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 11-30-2006 17:28

k, i'm not even bothering to read the other posts, so, excuse if i am being parallel to someone else.


That's one of the things i noticed when i went to the states. People buy computers as if they are televisions, in big card boxes. Here in europe, people tend to go for packages made from picked out pieces. They pick up a pre made model and "put this in, take this out" it around.

So, they say they offer winxp. It probably is a package deal, only suitable for that machine. You put the cd and the thing most likely formats your disk/partition and installs xp with all the necessary drivers and menus and publicity. Or it can be real winxp cd. So check that out.

256MB nVidia GeForce 7300LE TurboCache <- the LE is NOT a good thing. It stands for Light Edition, and basically means you are getting the geforce 7300 with half the pixel pipelines. That does effectively decrease in half or so the graphic card performance. Those cards are made so you buy another one like it later and SLI link them together. Not a good buy.

Forget all the software that thing has. It's all crappy, and you can find freeware alternatives that are better. That includes adobe read0er: http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php


You say "integrated audio". That means it's integrated into the motherboard. You should check out reviews on the motherboard model. <- very important.

Finally, the all overlooked component. The powersupply. Check that out too.

AMD tend to overheat, check out if the box is very hot or if it has good ventilation.


To sum it up:

0) check out if the winxp is a real xp cd or not

1) graphic card -> the LE is not good

3) the software is all dispensable

4) confirm reviews on motherboard and power supply

5) check out ventilation


buy yourself an UPS and add that to the price.

~this is not a signature~

(Edited by Arthemis on 11-30-2006 17:30)

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-01-2006 15:14

Arthemis,

Many thanks for the thorough review of my question.

It looks as if I have to do a lot more research on the items you listed.

Thanks again.

Country Boy

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

posted posted 12-01-2006 15:59

Good points, Arthemis:

0) Undoubtedly a "recovery CD" tailored to the machine - not a real XP CD. It is possible to strip this back to a normal XP CD but may well lack XP extras and components (like a full driver library).

1) LE is not a problem unless you want to play Quake Wars on the thing. For Photoshop, etc, this makes little or no difference. The Turbocaching is more of a performance let-down - it uses on-board memory, rather like an intergrated solution. Calculate your on-board RAM minus the RAM reserved for use by the graphics card.

2) What happened to number two?

3) True, true. I would never go with the packaged choices, especially as many of them are cut-down version for OEM distribution. In fact, it is quite possible to get a refund on the cost of the OS if you reject that altogether - there is a clause in the license covering this... probably easier to Google it.

4) Creative X-Fi with 7.1 channels. I wouldn't complain. Power supply is 305W - this most likely provides adequate power for the basic system considered satisfactory by Dell - I'd consider the PSU a prime upgrade item.

5) No information on fans, but the case design is highly ventilated, with two hard drives mounted behind vents at the front of the machine. It looks like finding mounting points for extra fans would be an issue.

ADDENDUM: Be aware that there appear to be USB issues with various distributions of Linux on this machine, so if you plan on junking windows altogether, consider yourself fore-warned!

By the way - it looks pretty damn smart for a Dell. It is certainly not the sort of kit you'd mind having displayed top-side of the desk.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz.....

(Edited by White Hawk on 12-01-2006 16:06)

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-01-2006 17:19

Guys,

This is a prebuilt machine. I have no desire or tech know how for bldg one. So I am limited as how much I can mix and match.

To say:

3) True, true. I would never go with the packaged choices

is no doubt true but with those of use who go with prebuilts we are limited as to the amount of choices we can make.

And now for a bit of real heresy....... I only want to buy what I need. I do not want a hot rod. I believe that many people on most boards are building hot rods which is fine for them and perfectly ok. But what most people lose sight of in buying cars or computers is what they trully need. Most people do not need to be the fastest car on the block but they go out and buy it because they have the $ and because they forget about what they need.

As I said up above, I do not do gaming so my needs are limited and I don't have the time and tech knowhow for building.

In reviewing what most people have said I am impressed by how expert people's answers are and how they answer everything in detail.

I want this upcoming computer to last me for as many years as possible so it does take a bit of planning.

I thank everyone for their time and expertise. You are maginificent.

Country Boy

NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 12-01-2006 23:29

It's all about ram. Always has been. Always will be.

If you can afford 2 gig of ram, for a system capable of using 2 gig of ram.... buy it.

Never 'assume' anything when it comes to how you currently use a computer.

Even if you don't opt for the next operating system what about upgrades to the programs you already use?

Any of those programs could, two years from now put out an entirely new version or an upgrade that, you decide you must have. Well, I have yet to see a new version of any program that requires less ram than its predecessor.

Up to a certain point, bang for your buck on upgrading any system is more ram. If you start with 2 gig you will, in two years from now will be less likely to hear yourself say something like '...those bastards they want a gig of ram to run this thing... I can't afford to buy more ram and the program.'

So if you can afford tostart with more... start with more.

___________________________________________________________________________
"I didn't attend the funeral, but I sent a nice letter saying that I approved of it." Mark Twain

Arthemis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Milky Way
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 12-03-2006 16:26

countryboy: a good computer gives you a lot less problems. So you should more or less go for what you can afford, without being too farfetched.

quote:
But what most people lose sight of in buying cars or computers is what they trully need. Most people do not need to be the fastest car on the block but they go out and buy it because they have the $ and because they forget about what they need.



But unlike cars, there are no "speed limits" for computers =)


About the ram: Some motherboards have DDR and DDR2 slots. A pair of each. You can put 2GB of ram in them (2x512DDR+2X512DDR2), but then you lose the DDR2 dual core functionality. I can't say accurately if that is better than just 1GB working in dual.

~this is not a signature~

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-03-2006 17:24

Arthemis,

You mention:
----------
About the ram: Some motherboards have DDR and DDR2 slots. A pair of each. You can put 2GB of ram in them
(2x512DDR+2X512DDR2), but then you lose the DDR2 dual core functionality. I can't say accurately if that is
better than just 1GB working in dual.
---------

The observation sounds like an important one but one that is frankly too sophisticated for me to know the answer to. Could you tell me if that such is the case based on the description of the system that is described at:
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/dimen_e521?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19

I was going to buy 2 gig of RAM for increased functionality but for you to say I could:
.............. lose the DDR2 dual core functionality .............
leaves me not knowing what to do.

Also, there is a lot of talk of the AMDs being mostly for games and "running hot" but that Intels are expensive and more for applications. I am running an AMD Athalon right now and it seems ok. Do you have views on this?

Thanks for your time.

Country Boy

Arthemis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Milky Way
Insane since: Nov 2001

posted posted 12-03-2006 18:38

from the site

quote:

DDR25 is a memory architecture that enables systems to improve performance and reduce power consumption. The amount of RAM you have determines how many programs can be executed at one time and how much data can be readily available to a program. It also determines how quickly your applications perform and how many applications you can easily toggle between at one time. Simply put, the more RAM you have, the more programs you can run smoothly and simultaneously.


* Up to 4GB6 Dual-Channel DDR27 SDRAM (533MHz)

7 Dual-channel memory requires 2 each of the same capacity memory DIMMs.




So that means you are all set. As long as you specifically ask for a memory setup that enables dual core.

Now, about the AMD thing - it's not very relevant.

What you should worry is about the weirdness of that motherboard. I can't find what model it is anywhere. And i find it weird that it has integrated audio, internet card, and... a geforce 6!?


and the expansions slots, are this the slots that will be free after you put in the geforce 7?
PCI: 2 Slots
PCIe x1: 1 Slot
PCIe x16 (Graphics): 1 Slots

Okay, what i think now is that this model is basically lowend technology brought up by add-ons. That motherboard is bound to be too weird. Or maybe they change the motherboard according what you ask them to put together.

You're better off going to a medium sized computer store (one that you know as having at least two stores in its chain) and asking them to put together a computer from an ASUS or ASRock normal motherboard (with integrated audio and internet card).


A quick google search found me this:

http://forums.cnet.com/5208-7591_102-0.html?forumID=26&threadID=158223&messageID=1755312


and from there i found this:


http://www.monarchcomputer.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv

and this

http://www.ibm.com/products/us/


edit: check out the "bestsellers" on the monarchcomputer site. Apparently a lot of their motherboards come with an integrated video card, but at least they seem more straightforward about it.

(Edited by Arthemis on 12-03-2006 18:47)

countryboy
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: somers, new york
Insane since: Dec 2000

posted posted 12-04-2006 01:22

Many thanks. You sound both knowledgeable and thorough

I am researching all you mentioned and have contacted KC Computers about a build of what I need.

Life is not easy......it's very complicated...and I always seem to be having to learn enough to write a Phd thesis.

Thanks again.

Country Boy



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