At first I thought it was brilliant, then they brought in some stuff that I wasn't so sure of anymore and in the end I just didn't know anymore which one is more propaganda - this movie or fox news. Most of the time I felt that they were skipping over information that I would have liked to hear. They were using all those quotes from powerful personalities as arguments and I think to myself: yeah they're all smart people and so forth but a quote is not proof. A quote may serve a supportive role but it cannot be taken as proof or an argument. Of course a movie is a limited medium but still wouldn't they have used a more scientific approach if they could have?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-21-2007 22:30
Well, it is interesting, that much is sure.
As usual, fact and assumption is mixed together to give the "feeling" that everything fits together and makes sense.
But it doesn't.
If one starts to take some notes, and does some homework, one soon begins to see large holes in the "logic" leaps and assumptions.
For example, there has been no concrete proof presented that there is some sort of "organisation" consisting of some ulta-elite (like the Illuminati). Instead, some names are dangled before the eyes of the audience, and some of the "evil deeds" of these names are then trotted out, and then bam! Of course they are part of some sort of Global conspiracy.
Well, human nature doesn't work that way, I am afraid.
As one becomes more powerful, and has more money, more power, more toys, etc, it also means that one has less friends and peers. And as with all humans, one has friends, enemies, likes, dislikes, loves, hatreds, rivals, and companions.
The super rich and the ultra-powerful do as well. Also, children like to rebel against parents, and do things that their parents really don't like - especially among the super rich and ultra-powerful (if you do not believe it, examine history). So trying to keep some sort of group together, between these types of families, really is whimiscal phantasy. Provide some proof first. Because when dealing with things like this, you have to make sure that every single thing presented is documented and backed up by fact.
Otherwise, it is just another attempt to manipulate.
Now, obviously the Rockefellers, and the other names mentioned here are not "white-as-snow". Obviously, they are only interested in their own best interests, and are willing to ride rough-shot over anyone elses that they can. And they do not care for laws, organizations, morals, or whatever that happen to get in the way - they only respect one thing. Power. He who has it calls the shots, at least as long as he has it. Of course, someone else is always conniving a way to get all of yours, and you his.
Take the 1907 case trotted out. Of course the Rockefellers & Co. quietly withdrew their funds. Back then, insider trading laws did not exist, and such families were very powerful and interconnected. Not only that, but surely they also had their hand in the game, if indeed they were not orchastrating it themselves. But it is a looooong stretch of the imaginiation to go from that to some sort of conspiracy stretching over x number of decades, involving some of the most powerful families the world knows!
There are many instances in the film, that come across as being totally naive and ignorant of human nature and human history. Take the WWI, WWII, and Vietnam Gulf of Tonkin incidents. Like they were the first times things like this had been tried! Rubbish!
Governments, Rulers, Religions, etc have been doing such things since Humans climbed down from out of the treetops. Again, human nature. If I tell you the truth of the matter as I see it, you may or may not accept it, hell, you may think I am nuts for saying so. But if I trick you into believing it, well, that is sooo much better, because I take out of the picture the possibility of you doing just that - refusing to accept my "truth" as I see it.
Now apply the same thing on a grand scale - and remember, the larger the group, the easier it is to manipulate. Humans have a tendence towards herd mentality and the unconcious urge to accept as more "true" what a larger group accepts, as a smaller one. The rather distorted and lopsided rantings of Jade are a good example of this. If you are not aware of some of her ramblings, then just do a search.
The part where the whole film basically gets shot to hell and back is the comparison of Mr. Bush with Hitler in that little speech on the Homeland Security. Everyone who debates knows that when the Hitler argument is raised, that the point is moot and the discussion is over. That aside, anyone who has made even just a casual jaunt into the realm of debate, propaganda, communication, etc knows that Hitler had some great propaganda. Perhaps the best that we have documented to this day. And of course, anyone who can recognize that, can recognize that such can be used over, and over, and over, and over, and over again...just change the date, change a few words, and apply it to a different situation.
So in conclusion (yes, my little rant is coming to an end, so be patient ) - the film documents some interesting facts, makes for an enjoyable watching experience, and raises some interesting questions. But it falls well flat of being able to prove or even demonstrate facts for a conspiracy by some ultra-powerful, elite group that is trying to sieze control of the world and excercise total domination ala Big Brother over every single living human being.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
I watched this a while back and for the most part have to agree with WS. Very interesting, but a lot of things are portrayed as black and white when there are actually endless shades of gray. You'll have that though, and I am not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I also agree with reisio that what they are promoting, paradigm shift on the grand scale (my take anyways), is right.
The important thing to realize is that nearly everything is propaganda nowadays and with any politically motivated material, you must always do your research afterwards to balance yourself out lest you fall into the mindtrap again. It was just this type of material that got me questioning and led me to further research into all manners of things, which has been a very enlightening experience for me. It has led me to a place that, a few years ago, was inconceivable. I would not give it up for anything. So I hope the popularity that this film, and other homegrown/lternative media types like it, are experiencing continues on so that others like me can be awakened and driven to dig further. That can only be a good thing.
That said, I cringe every time a film like this uses terms like "elites" or "illuminati" or whatever. Perhaps as these films and film-makers mature, we will see these references less and less. This is a young media, and I think we are witnessing an important part of history that may well bring great societal change someday. The alternative as I see it is rather bleak.
quote:WS: Now apply the same thing on a grand scale - and remember, the larger the group, the easier it is to manipulate.
Have you ever read Propaganda by Bernays? If not, I highly recommend it. Google Books. I could also post a PDF for anyone interested.
So, do we dare delve into a discussion on the merits of the controlled demolition/false flag hypothesis of 911 or is that a pandora's box best left unopened?
WS, may I say that is with great pleasure that I say, "Great post and I agree!!!". ~fanfare~
Not surprisingly the slam against Xianity was my primary focus
I watched the first half of this movie a few weeks back. My first reaction was that it was classic conspiracy theory. I usually dismiss conspiracy theories simply because they are conspiracy theories. Anyone can justify anything they want by using the shoddy methods employed by this site and movie. I could cite people who used the Bible to justify slavery, premillennialists wrongly predicting the end repeatedly, Michael Moore?s movies, Area 51 theorists, etc.
I find it ironic that this movie slams Christianity as part of a larger conspiracy by propping up its own conspiracy. In essence I hear them saying, ?don?t believe that Xianity crap! Believe our crap instead. And whatever you do don?t think it through for yourself!!!?
But there is a side to the information that they offer concerning Christianity that needs to be addressed, and is difficult. Some stories in the bible are not unique, and this can be a very disturbing thing to learn initially; it was for me. I've been honest here about this being one of the areas that gives me pause about my faith. It really does bother me that these parallels exist and one must seriously consider how they fit into reality if one is to be intellectually honest.
Now the good thing is that these other stories are not hidden or otherwise denied by me or the church I attend. The movie suggests that this is a ?dirty little secret? or the ?information your church doesn?t want you to know? sort of thing. But this is not the case, I openly accept facts as they are and do my best to provide answers concerning them.
Ram,
That sounds like a good book, thanks for the recommendation. I'm not sure I agree with your point about this shoddy movie being a good thing though. Wouldn't it be better for people to be inspired to look deeper by the voice of reason rather than propaganda? I can agree it's wonderful if someone comes to a clearer understanding of the world in spite of a film like this, but I would sleep much better at night knowing there were fewer conspiracy theories making the rounds.
reisio,
Did Ram get it right? When you say "what they're promoting is right", do you mean a "paradigm shift on the grand scale"?
quote:Bugs: I usually dismiss conspiracy theories simply because they are conspiracy theories.
Ahh, but what is a conspiracy theory? What benchmark sets the difference between a "conspiracy theory" and an "official story"?
Since it is the obvious elephant in the room, take 9/11 for instance; specifically the fall of the twin towers and WTC7. Whether you look at what a growing number of people believe, including some credible professionals, that there were explosives in the buildings which helped bring them down, or the official story, that the jet fuel ignited, weakening the steel trusses leading to a total pancake collapse, both are theories about a conspiracy.
That one comes from the government and/or government funded organizations (NIST in this case) and that somehow makes it more credible is actually pretty humorous if you really think about it, considering how honest we know government in general to be.
When we start getting into irrational thought and make a jump or jumps based on what we want the conclusion to be, such as those who espouse that it was the elites, Illuminati, NWO, Zionists, Bush himself, Inter-dimensional lizards ala David Icke, etc... because it fits into their view and helps them make more sense of something, we are now into another realm, something different than conspiracy theory. Not sure what you would call it, not lies necessarily, because people sincerely believe this...myth perhaps. From this perspective, we are all conspiracy theorists to a degree I think.
In any case, I think it is sad that the phrase has picked up such a negative connotation, especially in the latter half of the 20th century, because it stops people from questioning, and in many cases it stops them from questioning things that should be questioned. Back to 9/11 for a moment. I have been studying all facets, but particularly the collapses, for close to 3 years now (but what about this, and this, etc...), and I think it is not only valid to question something that has had such an effect on our nation and the world, but vital. Especially considering that the report we were given was wholly inadequate. If anything, I would hope you agree there. If not I urge you to dig deeper.
Nowadays, anything that goes against the official story all gets lumped into this group called "conspiracy theorists" and it is not long before the tin-foil hat accusations start flying, and that is a dangerous situation because it shuts down the critical thinking processes of the masses and gives those with a will to do harm great leeway. A method of control it is. Whether a natural phenomenon or an organized system of control matters not, but the control and the power that comes with it is there to be exploited.
Without rambling on all night, I suppose what I am trying to point out is you should never pass up looking into something simply because it has had the phrase "conspiracy theory" applied to it by the masses, the media, the government or whoever. Often times today's conspiracy theory turns out to be tomorrow's conspiracy fact.
As a side note, in case you are wondering, what I think about 9/11 is quite simple. I don't really know much further than to say I think we've been lied to. What's important is that we all look into these things ourselves and stop taking what is fed to us as truth. I think you would agree.
quote:I'm not sure I agree with your point about this shoddy movie being a good thing though. Wouldn't it be better for people to be inspired to look deeper by the voice of reason rather than propaganda?
Absolutely, it would be much more beneficial to have everything presented to us in an unbiased and totally honest way, in an ideal world. Unfortunately, we live in a world filled with propaganda, it drives our entire society; it molds our reality. Everything is biased simply because humans are inherently biased. That's a reality we have to face.
So, to make a long story short, I guess I am to the point where I will take what I can get. Sure it turns some away, and in the short term may be detrimental to the movement we are all part of (whether we realize it or not) but I find in many cases it gets people digging deeper into these issues, I am an example and I have seen others go through the same transformation, and again, that is what it is all about. Getting those neurons firing, yay.
As far as part 1 of the film goes, I struggle with this as well, which will lead me to further research from all sides. So, if you have any thoughts on where to start looking for a counter argument based on known facts I am definitely interested. Thanks.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-26-2007 16:16
WTC7 is probably one of the most interesting and intriguing of the things trotted out in the film (at least, for me).
The film raises some interesting questions regarding "Why did WTC7 fall"?
I have yet to read or hear anything that really addresses this.
If it was a series of explosions, then any Seismograph nearby should have picked up the vibrations from the blasts.
I believe the University of New York has a Geology department, and that they do live Seismograph recordings. I could be wrong here, however.
I would be very, very interested in seeing the actual Seismographical evidence recording the entire event. That would give us more clues and evidence to support a theory here.
Does anyone have a link to any factual information that pertains to the reasons why WTC7 fell?
Oh, and nice to see you back, Bugs!
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
To my knowledge, they are the only ones who recorded the events.
You might also check out chapter 5 of the FEMA report, which is devoted entirely to WTC7, although they downplay their hypothesis (diesel fuel tanks --> fire+minor damage from debris --> loss of structural integrity and subsequent collapse) as improbable. http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf
quote:The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.
-section 5.7, Observations and Findings, para 2.
Other than that, NIST has yet to release their final study of the collapse of WTC7. It was due earlier this year, but is lagging a bit it seems. Eagerly awaiting what they have to say. Last, oddly enough, the 9/11 Commission Report doesn't mention WTC7.
From the other side of things I would recommend both 911 Mysteries and Improbable Collapse. 911 Mysteries focuses on the collapses and is a proponent of the controlled demo theory. They try to come at it from a more scientific angle than your typical "conspiracy theory" film, although there is a bit of easily identified speculation intertwined. Improbable Collapse covers the the "thermite/thermate hypothesis" as proposed by BYU physics professor Steven Jones. Both contain a lot of invaluable footage and are thought provoking regardless.
As it stands, I don't think we have enough scientific data to say for sure one way or the other what caused the collapse of 7. Not sure that that will ever change. I must admit that right now I don't know what to make of WTC7; I know what my leanings are, considering a lot of other information and "coincidences", but that is all purely speculation which I don't think is worth discussing because it leads nowhere.
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-27-2007 15:12
quote:To my knowledge, they are the only ones who recorded the events.
No, they are not the only ones who recorded the events, but the others that did have not posted their records.
Especially those from the military.
They monitor seismic data around the clock with very, very sensitive equipment. They would have a really, really precise recording of what happened.
I wonder why this was not subpoenaed by the 9/11 Commission? It is crucial, critical evidence that can help narrow down exactly what happened, and it would in no way, shape, or form fall under NS or Top Secret material normally (well, as long as there were no atom tests done at the same time, etc).
I will be looking at those links, Ram. Thanks for posting them.
Very strange about the 3rd building (WTC7) is that it occurred much later than the other two - 21:20, which is almost 7 HOURS later. Also, if you examine the collapse tremors, you see it occurs in two parts, with relative silence between them. A silence of about 5 seconds.
That is very, very strange.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
quote:
I wonder why this was not subpoenaed by the 9/11 Commission? It is crucial, critical evidence that can help narrow down exactly what happened, and it would in no way, shape, or form fall under NS or Top Secret material normally (well, as long as there were no atom tests done at the same time, etc).
Because the 9/11 Commission was purely political; a quick fix to placate the American public?
From: Happy Hunting Grounds... Insane since: Mar 2001
posted 09-28-2007 23:58
While most Commissions are exactly that (see the Kennedy Assassination for more details, for example), the fact-after-the-Commission often comes back to haunt those who participated, making being part of such a circus a risky political thing these days.
I would have expected them to have at least to have done a half-assed job at trying to look like they had conducted a real investigation.
WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles
Hi, I am new here, but 9/11 truth (ot at least the search for it) is one of my big interests. I am not a scientist or anything like that, just a layman who thinks that there are too many unanswered questions left by the so called 9/11 Commission. Like Webshaman, I would have expected them to have tried to at least look as if they were trying to conduct a real investigation.
Well Master Suho mentioning this a little while ago brought it once again to my attention, I remember the film having a fair impact on me defining some of my own ideas and really bringing light to some interesting theories whether they are in fact true or not is another discussion.
However Just last night I found that there is a concluding video Zeitgeist Addendum, it continues the tale of power and the economy, and looks to the future somewhat and explains the current problem with over borrowing.
If you've seen the first, I'd certainly recommend that you check out this edition also.
Something it does talk about is The Venus Project a new movement in bringing in a technology based economy, not one that is monetary, an interesting idea.
I'm developing an allergy for conspiracy movies ... simply because the debunking movies/videos _always_ make more sense. Sometimes get a little stuck in their webs and then watch another movie that debunks it and go 'oh yea, how the hell did I believe this shit'...
edit:
The trouble is that the other kind of movies aren't at all as popular and so they're usually pretty hard to come by.
i would agree with arthurio.
i m getting sick of conspiracy movies and theories as well. i know it makes us think with a different perspective but do you believe that you will actually know the truth one day or another?
posted 09-21-2007 00:34
) - the film documents some interesting facts, makes for an enjoyable watching experience, and raises some interesting questions. But it falls well flat of being able to prove or even demonstrate facts for a conspiracy by some ultra-powerful, elite group that is trying to sieze control of the world and excercise total domination ala Big Brother over every single living human being.
