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argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-09-2008 19:47 Edit Quote

There are five categories of manipulation in debate.
They are all interesting, but I want to emphasize on the ones used regularly
by Jestah or Webshaman, to name a few, in this very forum.

Coercion is one. It is used extensively against Jade or me, it is "subtly trying to push a person to prove he is capable
of a predicted negative action" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coercion

Debasement, stems from economic terms, consists in "removing the good" from a person's actions
and only stroking the bad, eg. ignoring positivity in one's person's past or expressions :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debasement

There are countless examples of these around : people you will hardly find involved
in those practices are DL-44 like people, for example. Very direct and strong minded. More insecure individuals,
on the other hand, will resort to practices like this on a consistent basis - because they lack the knowledge to prove
a point using strictly scientific facts, they will try to escape a public display of their limits by "attacking".
Poi typically applies debasement to anything I do recently, in disguise behind a mask of "I want to help and I know".

The disguise falls when you adress the guys and they don't manage to reply directly.

I am posting this to help less experienced debaters keep in mind one thing : attacks of that kind,
once known, can be identified, and they stem from personal weakness - don't fear the weak.

Pitty the weak to the extent it doesn't compromise your integrity - but stick to your integrity regardless.

Cheers,
Argo

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Norway
Insane since: Jun 2002

IP logged posted posted 03-09-2008 20:27 Edit Quote

Add to that a good 'ole Ad hominem for good measure.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-09-2008 20:38 Edit Quote

That one's good. But I don't recognize myself in it. Feel free to link it to some of my actions, in other words, to prove it

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-10-2008 10:15 Edit Quote

This thread really has no positive constructive merit.

Calling others names and making wild assumptions about members is hardly constructive.

Moving to the Basement.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 06:57 Edit Quote

Ini, why do you insist on bringing me into all of your temper tantrums? This has to be the second or third time in the past week or so that you've blown your gasket and started a thread mentioning me.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 13:35 Edit Quote

Webshaman : I haven't called anyone names right above, and the only reason you are moving this thread here
is because it may be a threat to your standard debate skewing practices.

I am fed up of seeing people like you bash and bully people like Jade, to name one : I am fed up
of your constant, and consistent, denial.


Jestah :
Because a person who is intolerant enough to pester an Apple support agent until he gets a discount,
and then go brag about the mentioned discount is the root of all evil to me : it says a LOT about you.

Serving others actually is a sign of deep personal qualities - which should call for a respect you know nothing about,
yet try to teach lessons about.

...I should ask you why you bother reading my threads, though, and casually posting
the standard "how long is it gonna last?" If I didn't know the answer already.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-11-2008 13:46)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 15:06 Edit Quote

I don't know if it's my place to say, but... sometimes, people get bashed because they have a habit of walking into things. It's a phenomenon I like to call 'auto-bashing', and requires no bullying at all as far as I can see.

I can't see how anyone can accuse Webshaman of employing 'standard debate skewing' practices. IMHO, WS makes more sense in these forums than most; the fact that he has maintained his measured attitude despite some substantial provocation is not unexpected, but impressive all the same.

I had to interject just to ask: why is the 'QuickChanges' list littered with pointless, self-obsessive Argo threads? Why, if you wish to be left alone, are you running naked through the asylum screaming "I just want to be loved"!?

How long is it gonna' last?

If you cared a little less about what others thought of you, you'd likely find them distracted by more important things and less inclined to picking on you.

Tao
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Pool Of Life
Insane since: Nov 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 15:32 Edit Quote
quote:

White Hawk said:

I can't see how anyone can accuse Webshaman of employing 'standard debate skewing' practices. IMHO, WS makes more sense in these forums than most; the fact that he has maintained his measured attitude despite some substantial provocation is not unexpected, but impressive all the same.



Hear hear or is it here here? Whatever it is I agree with you White Hawk.


Those who look for monsters should look to it that
they do not become monsters. For when you gaze
long into the abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 15:33 Edit Quote

Webshaman making sense? Now that's a new one. Debate opened about future of societies : his argument, "I know because I have mileage".
His attitude to two women here, Arthemis and Jade namely : "you don't know because I know". ID thread, episode 1.
Like your attitude to my MOTHER - you got as low as calling her in the conversation.

I can dig that filth up in two clicks.

White Hawk : If I wanted your love, I'd mind telling you to go to hell.
I don't. Go to hell.

I am running in the Asylum saying "hey guys, it's nice and classy to bash Jade and high five each other
about bashing an Apple support agent, BUT I am making a great business here and would, in general, appreciate less child games,
mental masturbation, and more coherent ACTION."

Which is the original purpose, btw, of ozoniclabs by the Doc : go read what his vision of that was.
Go read what his business hopes for the Asylum were.

And understand that if he doesn't post anymore, it's out of understanding the uselessness of feeding you
the gold you never will be able to value for what it is. That's the core of my frustration - your love? You can SHOVE IT.

But there is a world, a whole wide world, to see, explore, a wealth of things to do in a coherent way.
Yet, for weeks now, the Philo forum is about "ten guys vs Jade".

What kind of lesson do you want to preach already? What kind of purpose are you offering here, and to yourself and your life?

WebShaman
Lunatic (VI) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 16:39 Edit Quote

Well, the meltdown did not take long, did it?

Back to your old self.

What do you hope to achieve by acting and posting like this?

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 16:55 Edit Quote

Answer my question FIRST : remember? Avoiding a direct answer is (check the title of this thread - a documented manipulation technique).

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 18:48 Edit Quote
quote:

argo navis said:
Jestah :Because a person who is intolerant enough to pester an Apple support agent until he gets a discount,and then go brag about the mentioned discount is the root of all evil to me : it says a LOT about you.




As usual you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

As I posted on this forum, I brought my Powerbook in for repairs and was charged $310. The problem was not resolved and I brought it back. Both the second and third time I was called in to pick up my laptop, the Geniuses were unable to get the computer to boot up for me in the store. The fourth time I was called, the machine booted, I took it home, and returned to the store the following day with the original problem. At that point they took it in the back, I walked around the mall for about 45 minutes, and received a phone call to return to the store. It was at that time that they offered to replace my machine.

I pestered an agent into giving me a discount? Are you kidding me?

I understand you're a world class nut job where the best part of you ran down your mothers leg but lets look at your unedited comments after my post concerning my laptop troubles:

quote:
(parental advisory, implicit humor)

And I'd be tempted to take back some of the things I've said about you, somebody
who owns a Mac can't be as bad as it seems.

(although it never hurts to get the facts before forming an opinion)

FWIW



Yeah, it sure sounds like at the time you viewed my intolerance as the root of all evil ...

You probably hear this a lot but get help you nut job. No one is out to get you. You're just a tool.

(Edited by Jestah on 03-11-2008 18:52)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 18:59 Edit Quote

Argo, I think I've made my feelings plain in another thread about how I feel on the whole Heaven/Hell thing - you may well be inviting me to go to the one place I'd choose from the two if Heaven is full of you.

What kind of lesson..? I doubt you'd see the intended point of any lesson, Argo. You come across as an ego-centric child; a dog who won't drop the stick. I offer you nothing but my opinion, observation, and knowledge - you beg for purpose? I cannot give you that. If you really need that from someone else, then find a girlfriend - for the love of numpty, you sure seem to need one.

As for the 'ten guys vs. Jade' thing - I think you're seeing things. Are ten guys supposed to shrug and walk away from an otherwise coherent debate just to preserve the feelings of someone who posts great globs of childish nonsense in the middle of it? As there is obviously no collaboration on a personal level beyond these forums, and there is no evidence to suggest an open and purposeful tag-team effort, you can only really conclude that ten disparate individuals responded in their own manner; that they all appeared to shout "poppycock" at the same person says more for Jade than it does the rest.

Some mobs are just a loose gathering of like-minded individuals, Argo.

Why the hell do you keep dragging Jade into this? I'm not sure she deserves to be associated with your campaign of disruption.

As for your mother; I asked only if you used 'that tone' with your mother. As you seemed incapble of reading and understanding my posts, choosing instead to insult me, I was curious as to whether the nature of your relationship with your mother was germain to your personality problems. Your response was very informative.

Should I choose to insult you, Argo, you can rest assured that I am more than capable of doing so without resorting to "yo momma".

As for 'documented manipulation techniques' - where do you dig this garbage up from? You've amply demonstrated each of the traits you've outlined, and I'm vaguely impressed that a twelve year-old is interested in bettering his knowledge of such matters, but I find it hard to take you seriously with your mouth full of foot.

For the sake of my own personal satisfaction, I'd like to leave you with a compliment: You must be an incredible touch-typist with your head that far up your a*se!

Edit: pointedly addressing intended recipient...

(Edited by White Hawk on 03-11-2008 19:02)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 19:05 Edit Quote
quote:

I take back everything negative that I've said about the company ...



Sorry : instead of doing it overtly, you moaned it to your friends (even with humor inside, it's above my head).
To then take the opposite take.

Peace out : about being a nutjob, it takes one to know one. What's the name of the place already?

quote:

for the love of numpty, you sure seem to need one.



Who's talking about a child? I have a girlfriend. She is a graduate from Brixton. She will happilly
be the 20-25th girl in my life for long term. Don't take my word, someone here can witness this since you need the tingleys showing.
.......................
Short of having a purpose for yourself, as you said : a purposeless life, purposeless posts, when am I to expect you quoting Hitler?
.......................
Of course, if you really crave for tingley showing, I can post a few photos. She is a gorgeous - not only intelligent,
and they all were from beautiful to astounding - I am EXTREMELY succesful with girls. Bad take.

And I have an girl - friend too, right here also. Bright and sweet and lovely in all regards.
What was I saying about assumptions, childishness? I stopped reading there White Hawk, remembering
your threats of violence (whereas I could break your neck with the tip of my finger), your question about my mother...

My mother and all the girls I've had and have in my life would actually be harsher to you than I am - most of them resent
wimpy shit twice more than I do, only they do not say it bluntly. For the girls in my life, they tell it in my ear after cumming between my sheets,
and they call people like you "decent friends"... like their GIRL friends yeah.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-11-2008 19:15)


As for your capabilities to avoid talking about my Mom's, you did. And what did you look for as an alternative?
My girlfriends? You're here to talk about maturity? THAT is the lesson you want to deliver.

Brilliantly demonstrated.

(Edited by argo navis on 03-11-2008 19:18)

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 19:28 Edit Quote

So - you say that you have trouble maintaining relationships with women (hence the large number of relationships), that you can break a neck with a fingertip (overcompensation for low self-opinion, perhaps), and you demonstrate, as indicated, that you have the intellectual capacity of a twelve year-old (as seems obvious from your inept attempts at threat and insult).

As for Hitler quotation:

quote:
The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.


quote:
Words build bridges into unexplored regions.


...hmmmm. Neither is really the case here, is it?

Thanks for the chuckle - I have to go out now, but I'm sure you'll leave me something for my return. Ciao for now!

(Edited by White Hawk on 03-11-2008 19:29)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 19:41 Edit Quote

Of course I will, until someone who is not Arthurio ACTS as a grown up here.

quote:

So - you say that you have trouble maintaining relationships with women (hence the large number of relationships),


No. That is what you distort.
I am saying I am very selective instead, and didn't hesitate to dump any of them - call it ego, I call it self esteem.

quote:

that you can break a neck with a fingertip (overcompensation for low self-opinion, perhaps),


No. A sad consequence of my muscular consitution, pain tolerance, and physical strength : I am wary of avoiding physical violence
altogether since, during teenage, I broke someone's hand inadvertently (open fracture with a single stupid kick).
I never hit anyone again since then.

Am currently learning martial arts to further enhance my control of this.
That is why, as opposed to you, I never threaten anyone of physical violence - cause if I am to have to hit someone,
I will, and I will do it to death quickly - sole exception to my rule of no physical harm : the cases where there is true danger.

quote:

(as seems obvious from your inept attempts at threat and insult).



Says White Hawk while attempting to insult.

The problem is that neither you, nor I, is being the better person :
everybody is slapping the worst of themselves on the table - you're totally doing it
as well. I am going through this discussion anyway, have to run too, but if there is ONE
reason left for me not to drop the talk...


It's because the way out, the only one left, is through.
Go ahead chucklehead, make my day.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 21:00 Edit Quote
quote:

argo navis said:

Peace out : about being a nutjob, it takes one to know one. What's the name of the place already?



Ini, it's one thing to post in a forum with a Mad Scientist theme but you shouldn't take light what I said about seeking professional help. When people log on and brag to strangers on the internet, they're generally full of shit. Although I think you are full of shit, your odd behavior suggests that it's something far more serious. I'm going to let you in on a secret: People who


- are so good looking they date only the most beautiful women and toss them away at will
- are so intelligent they're sought after by the worlds top CEOs for employment
- are so strong and athletic their bodies are registered weapons
- are so personable they have more friends than they know what to do with and even more admirers
- are such talented programs that others should recognize the gold that they freely dole out
- are in such high demand they have no time to start any of the projects they would like to work on
- are paid so much for their time

don't spend their lives crying on a message board. They don't post crap* (extra crap, more crap) for review. They don't demand their posts be deleted or dire consequences will occur. I think you're so full of bullshit that it's coming out of your ears. However, I think with you're behavior, it's the sign of more serious problems.

Although you brag about how wonderful your life is now, it wasn't too long ago you bragged just the opposite. I think more than myself can remember posts about how your mother, brother, and classmates all hated you.

*Edit: For the record I do recognize that it was Arthurio who basically redesigned this site for you. That wasn't meant to be a knock against him but why the heck is someone so talented taking someone else's work?

(Edited by Jestah on 03-11-2008 21:07)

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 21:26 Edit Quote

It was two years ago, but it is quoted incorrectly, distorted, and backed up by no facts.

Jestah : I am just answering the lowest possible and most stupid questions in an attempt to educate people like you.
I type fast, sue me, I can multitask coding and talking without a problem.

My mother absolutely loves me - my father simply happened to be violent, and that caused family issues.
My classmates disliked me AFTER I had sex with the only girl in the class and we broke up.

Understand that there is a world of difference between simply speaking the truth,
and fighting to prove it : I have nothing to prove, so I will keep the sexy messages, emails, the photos,
and the documents regarding my cancelled wedding here in my drawer, it's easier than that to break you Jestah.
It doesn't take a pinch, it doesn't take much at all.

For example, this new concept of yours that the site reviews is not for site reviews is...
Up to exactly what can be expected from you.

Insults about my work? Jestah signing himself - a Jestah.


I can answer each and every thing you've said easilly : although kimson has seen a few of my past girlfriends,
and happened to share a romantic bond at some point with me, I don't want to mix her in this - but she is one more walking and living,
and talking proof of simple facts.

As much as I do not need to prove those facts, I don't need to hide them either, look how blatant you make your
weaknesses all alone :

quote:

For the record I do recognize that it was Arthurio who basically redesigned this site for you.



Arthurio changed the left menu settings, I picked on his work and integrated it in a site I had redesigned three times.
Nice try.

But. It takes more than a tool to make a point.

quote:

why the heck is someone so talented taking someone else's work?


Because my main talents pertain to software development, and I have no formal education in marketing,
while I respect other people who do have that formal education. What you're doing here, as per this thread's title, is called : ad hominem. Check poi's link.

It's very weak. But I am willing to offer you a helping hand.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:40 Edit Quote

Who the heck said the review forum isn't for reviews?

Again, you just post such nonsensical stuff it's difficult to believe that you're all there in the head. These silly outbursts from you and delusions of grandeur is a pretty good indication that you're not.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 22:49 Edit Quote

Regardless of wether you like my sites or not, you said I should not post my sites in the site reviews forum, pretty much.

It may all be nonsensical to you for some reason - my life is full of colors, what can I do about it?
Claim I am someone else?

Am with my buddies for the much needed Worms World Party tournament right now - will be back on forums in a few hours.

Jestah, simple proposal : out of nostalgia, I have checked some photos and documents, in the aforementioned drawer,
that prove many of the facts you take for bullshit. Badges for consultants from the top level companies I worked for, etc.

Anything about my current customers I can't disclose, but if I prove to you 4 random facts that I mentionned,
will you cut the "you're full of shit" banter short once and for all?

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-11-2008 23:44 Edit Quote

Ini, I have never said anything to the effect that you should not seek a review of your sites in the site reviews forum. You're completely misrepresenting what I said above as you did my dealings with Apple. The absolutely COMICAL part of your misrepresentations is that they both fall in a topic you started concerning my use of manipulating tactics in debate.

I'm entirely uninterested in your phony bologna stories. I'm allergic to bullshit so why don't you stop it for a little while.

Arthurio
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: cell 3736
Insane since: Jul 2003

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 00:13 Edit Quote

I'm not really interested in discussing any of this but since I saw my name in here I thought I'd drop a comment.

Anyone I try to help is welcome to use my advice and/or examples I provide. Same goes for all third parties. Please do not bring in my efforts to help someone as an argument against that person who may or may not have benefited from these efforts.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 01:44 Edit Quote

Your accusations are ridiculous, as are your attempts at intimidation.

I have never threatened you - while I called you an 'offensive little sh*t', I simply stated the probable outcome of such a deliberately offensive remark (as I saw it) aimed at me 'on the street'. I never threaten physical violence, Argo, and even my choice of words was flippant and ambiguous. I was deliberately mischievous, even while I was angry.

Unlike you, I do not feel the need to expound my own self-percieved virtues or strengths in a thinly-veiled attempt to intimidate.

I have to cut myself short before I fall into the same bad pattern that you and I are both guilty of repeating. I would like to apologise to you, Argo Navis, for my disrespectful attitude towards you - I feel I know too little of you to make fair judgement.

Sorry, Argo.

I am not apologising to appease you, or because I'm trying to set an example, but because I sincerely feel that I have been wrong in my actions (words) on this forum, especially toward you. However I might disagree with your interpretation, I cannot ignore the consequences of my words. I hope you can forgive my transgression.

Consider my part in your torment done. Perhaps I might have the pleasure of buying you a drink in kind one day; it's funny how things sometimes work out.

argo navis
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Switzerland
Insane since: Jul 2007

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 09:24 Edit Quote
quote:

If you spoke to me like that on the street, I'd feed you the freaking pavement, you offensive little sh*t!



White Hawk : there goes your honesty.

White Hawk
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: zero divided.
Insane since: May 2004

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 11:21 Edit Quote

That's no threat - I'm a man of my word.

I see it as I have explained it- nothing to argue about. Of course, that I apologise for my recent posts neither affects nor reflects my abysmally low opinion of you. I'm simply ashamed to have stooped to your level- that doesn't make you any less a tosser.

(Edited by White Hawk on 03-12-2008 11:46)

Skaarjj
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: :morF
Insane since: May 2000

IP logged posted posted 03-12-2008 12:24 Edit Quote

Okay, I'll chime in relatively briefly before I get back to work:

I'm all for what was said in another post: ignoring a bad thing doesn't make it go away, and it doesn't make it any less bad. However, it can make the one causing the bad thing go away, because this a classic case of an attention-seeking, paranoid narcissist. Add to that the person in question's undoubtedly massive ego, and you've got all that you need to know for the purposes of ignoring their existence.

So, yes, ignoring argo's comments/rants won't necessarily make them go away, but it will make things a damn sight more peaceful when we're all happily pretending he never said anything, even if it turns out to be helpful. I, personally, wouldn't want to take advice from him no matter what, but that's just my opinion.

And, finally, I'm going to be hellishly busy for quite some time, so I probably won't have time to read the rest of this thread, or probably any others. So, argo, if you feel you want to reply to this, that's your choice. If you try to get a rise out of me from that, I won't even have time -- even if I did have the inclination -- to read it. So, tough.

Now, please, I'm asking my fellow asylumites as your friend, don't bite argo's bait. Don't answer his comments. Don't even acknowledge him. Let's just pretend he isn't even talking, so that this place we love can return to the peace and insanity we all work so hard to maintain in it. Don't let one malignant element spoil the place, okay?

Edit: Oh, and I was going to say, if you all do feel like continuing to discuss the actions of everyone's favorite disguise artist, do it off the Asylum, please. Public discussion onto provokes.

(Edited by Skaarjj on 03-12-2008 12:43)



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