Topic awaiting preservation: H1N1 - Out of Control?? (Page 1 of 2)

Not the pandemic itself, but the media.

Heard a local doctor on the radio resorting to scare tactics to get ppl vaccinated.

This was his way of responding to stories such as this one:

http://www.boingboing.net/2009/10/23/woman-with-dystonia.html

Hard to believe people can be so stupid, not the doctor, the people who actually think this is real. Then again, 40% of people believe the earth is 6000 years old and we coexisted with dinos.

I haven't decided if I will get the vaccine myself. No fear of the vaccine itself - but rather very little fear of this media-created flu.

What are u guys doing?

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edit: not saying you can't die from the flu (or from a vaccine), just that the media has blown everything out of proportion. Just wait until 2029.

(Edited by SleepingWolf on 10-27-2009 14:26)

Don't have a TV or read much online news so I'm clear of blown out headlines.

However, last week we had our Engineering Seminar ( 500+ people of 50+ nationalities and offices from 10+ countries ). Quite a few go hit by the flu and swine flu.

I'm fine but I plan to tag along my wife and get a looooong overdue check up at a GP. We'll ask about swine flu and if we should be vaccinated considering our history and social & work environment. As simple as that.

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poi said:

Quite a few go hit by the flu and swine flu.

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There are apparently more cases of flu this year (CDC website) than in other years...but all in all, I think it still remains a mild illness - except for the high risk groups of course.

Did any of your colleagues require hospitalization?

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Then again, 40% of people believe the earth is 6000 years old and we coexisted with dinos.

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Don't make up statistics to prove that people are stupid! 40% of American's maybe, but not 40% of people.

Anyway, Two people where I work have already had the swine-flu, one of them was so sick he couldn't leave his bed and was hallucinating, the other was just off for a week with fever.

Different people seem to be responding to it with different levels of severity, I believe that my partner and I may have even had it ourselves, but didn't feel bad enough to go to the doctor about it and recovered in under 2 weeks.

It's as serious as any other flu as far as I'm concerned, and some people die from that too.



(Edited by Blaise on 10-27-2009 15:52)

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Blaise said:

Don't make up statistics to prove that people are stupid!

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I wish I had made them up. Speak to Richard Dawkins.

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In 2008, a Gallup poll showed that 44 percent of Americans believed God had created man in his present form within the last 10,000 years. In a Pew Forum poll in the same year, 42 percent believed that all life on earth has existed in its present form since the beginning of time.

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The numbers are even worse in countries like Turkey. If you add third world countries into the equation and fundamentalists, the number is likely much higher than 40%.

But getting back on topic, I once had a "stomach flu" or gastro, could not even stand up to piss.

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(Edited by SleepingWolf on 10-27-2009 16:50)

SleepingWolf

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Did any of your colleagues require hospitalization?

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The Engineering Seminar ended on Saturday and so far I haven't heard of any hospitalization. However we've been recommended to work from home, if technically possible, if we show symptoms of flu.

This one is breaking me and my wife's head.

Germany is so full of propaganda right now, it is not funny.

Trying to filter through the crap is pretty difficult.

As I understand it, there are actually two different "vaccinations" apparently.

Those that the prominent and critical personal (politicians, doctors, police, etc) are getting access to, and another one that everyone else is supposed to get.

Getting a lot of weird information about this second one.

Also, we are being told NOT to vaccinate our twin sons, who are not yet 3 years old.

It is abso-fucking-lutely crazy here in Germany.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

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WebShaman said:

Also, we are being told NOT to vaccinate our twin sons, who are not yet 3 years old.

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CDC give these guidelines:

These target groups include pregnant women, people who live with or care 
for children younger than 6 months of age, healthcare and emergency medical 
services personnel, persons between the ages of 6 months 
and 24 years old, and people ages of 25 through 64 years of age who are at higher 
risk for 2009 H1N1 because of chronic health disorders or compromised immune 
systems.

So, 3 years olds are in one of the higher risk groups I guess. Tough call for parents.

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(Edited by SleepingWolf on 10-27-2009 23:18)

*edited for length*

(Edited by WebShaman on 10-28-2009 00:32)

Maybe we should spend more on teaching people to be sanitary.

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reisio said:

Maybe we should spend more on teaching people to be sanitary.

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You mean no double dipping at the buffet?

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I mean no coming to work with THE FLU and then wiping of bodily fluids all over THE HANDS and then USING OTHER PEOPLE'S OFFICE EQUIPMENT.

@reisio: pansy

Germany: Media = the crazy.
University = apperantly as well.

Seriously, this university has installed 'Sterilium' dispensers in the washrooms of the computer science department. Now, Sterilium is a potent anti-microbial cleaning fluid that you'd most commonly find in biology labs and medical centers.
And that's the department that, when asked what's the consequence if we have to close down for a week: no lectures and tutorials.
Research goes on (from home, presumably)...

Overblown. But hey, maybe we can create alcohol restistant staphylococcus aureus...

But what do I expect, this is the same university that concludes from two arson attemps with oven tops in rooms without smoke alarm that it now has to ban all non-induction oven tops. Instead of you know, installing smoke alarms...

so long,

->Tyberius Prime

Here's an interesting chart showing H1N1 deaths around teh globe, unfortunately the picture doesn't show a reference.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelpaukner/4052849920/sizes/l/in/pool-16135094@N00/

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It's as serious as any other flu as far as I'm concerned, and some people die from that too.

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Some people? Regular flu' kills thousands, tens of thousands, every year. That's just in the US.

Flu' isn't the highest killer in the list, but it has remained a firm top-ten favourite killer for decades. It has been argued that the new variants may not be as bad as regular flu'... but more people are likely to contract them. It's a statistics game.

From the CDC website, as credible as you get:
http://www.cdc.gov/Flu/keyfacts.htm

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Every year in the United States, on average:

* 5% to 20% of the population gets the flu;
* more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from flu-related complications; and
* about 36,000 people die from flu-related causes.

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H1N1 can kill, like any other flu, but the real danger is when a flu crosses over from one species to another.

The avian flu is relatively rare in humans, but the mortality rate is over 90% I think...that's scary shit.

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Not to downplay swine flu, because it is a dangerous and potentially deadly ailment, but the level of paranoia and fear on this one far outweighs the threat. One can only imagine what would happen if populations feared much larger killers like cancer and heart disease on a similar level. If the news media and politicians focused on those proportionally, creating a proportional fear response in populations, people might actually start taking care of themselves; exercising, eating right, demanding better foods*, demanding a cleaner environment. I guess if it kills slowly, it not too scary because we can rationalize it away, but if it kills relatively quickly, lookout. And of course, those two diseases are long-term profit centers which create jobs and bring in hundreds of billions yearly.

This one is affecting children more than the regular strain of the flu, which doubles the fear response. I think 100 or so children have died in the US so far. It's crazy here because of those statistics. However, one must look at this objectively. 16,000 children die everyday globally of starvation and nobody seems to really give a rats ass. A proportional response to that, which is something totally preventable, would be nice to see.

Meh, humans.

*sidenote: if you get a chance to watch "Food Inc." it is highly recommended.

Ram

The Revolution will not be televised
The Revolution will not be televised
The Revolution will not be televised...

I do not have a TV I get my news media feed from the radio and the net, and I have to say that I am very discerning about what "news" or factual current affairs programmes I watch/listen to.
In order to add a post to this thread I have just spent the best part of an hour reading about swine flu or H1N1 on-line in what I hope to be reputable sources, I'm just adding the links to give an example of some of the sites I have checked.

http://www.newscientist.com/special/swine-flu-myths-that-could-endanger-your-life
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Swineflu/DG_177831
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/swine-flu
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8021958.stm

If I was not confused before then I certainly am now. As far as the actual disease or any other potentially serious ailment goes, there are only a few things we can do.

• Ensure through healthy living that our general health is good
• As much as is possible, keep away from known or potential sources of infection.
• Visit you GP or other trusted medical practitioner for further advice and possible treatment.

Now for the media
Oh Lordy where should I begin....
Don't trust them
Don't trust them

The news media especially on TV Radio print and on-line are without a shadow of a doubt scare mongers.
They exist to make money. Never forget that.
Sensationalism sells. Drama, tradagy, panic, death, destruction, negativity sells.
Now that we have that voracious beast, Rolling News, and hundreds of channels that need feeding with rolling news we are blinded 24-7 day after day of media savvy news teams and production staff competing for our attention. Don't forget these people have sponsors to placate.
That means slick graphics, "celebrity" presenters emoting the news for us, so we don't have to think, and of course big juicy shots of death, disaster and sensationalism filmed from every angle, with "expert" commentary just for the media company to get the edge over their rivals.

This message was brought to you care of ~AssWype~ Brown nosing since the beginning of tyme

Don't expect anything like the truth to emerge from that morass of human bilge...




[doh] amending siggage and turning down the volume a notch or two [/doh]

(Edited by Tao on 10-31-2009 16:10)

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According to the World Health Organization, 45,100 people died in automobile accidents in the United States in 2002, which made the United States rank fourth in that category. China ranked first, with 250,000 automobile accident deaths.

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A quarter of a million people die annually in China from automobile accidents - doesn't make the news though.

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I think what sets this epidemic apart from the normal, seasonal flu is that it sometimes kills otherwise healthy individuals, instead of just the very young, elderly, or weak.

And it is killing the otherwise healthy in higher numbers than normal flu.

As I have young children, I am of course concerned about what to do here. As Tao has pointed out rather l&c, the media is totally untrustworthy here as a reliable information source.

My wife and I have to make a decision before this tuesday - do we get our children vaccinated or not?

So I want to thank Tao for doing all the digging in his post. I think that having the boys vaccinated is better than the alternative. Kind of like the choice of two evils - so choose the lesser of the two.

I hope that this is the right choice. I will be posting back later on this.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

This kind of goes off track of the H1N1 topic, but I think the theme is the same.

It's interesting to think about the things our governments, and subsequently, the media and masses, choose to focus on (speaking beyond the celebrity worship to the perceived problems of the world). It is doubly as interesting to think about the things they do not focus on, essentially things in which money cannot be made in some way. Numbers are great when they promote a certain policy or industry they want to hold up, but those numbers are quickly discarded if it goes against this or that agenda.

An "elephant in the room" example would be the so-called War on Terrorism and the amount of money thrown at the security and military industries over these last 8 years, not to mention all the laws being laid down which curtail our human rights and deprive us of our dignity, and on a societal level the amount of hysteria and paranoia that is fostered and encouraged. How many people were killed in terrorist attacks last year in the Western world? I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I'll wager that in contrast to some of the numbers above, not many. Taking it further, it is particularly interesting to note that in this case, said governments are partially responsible for the creation of the problem they now promise to save us from. It's a symptom of bad policy (humanistically speaking), and they try to fight it with more bad policy when the easiest way to fight terrorism would be to look at it for what it is, desperate people taking desperate measures, and work on fixing the social disconnects which allowed the radicalism to ferment in the first place. But then, that would not be profitable and would not allow certain parties to hold their dominance in the world. People setting policy view the world as a chessboard, no empathy and cold, calculated moves geared toward dominance of nation states, regions, or particular industries. Not saying it is that black and white, but still...we have lost all perspective and the world is upside-down.

We like to pretend that we have adanced so far. Technologically yes, consciously and ethically, no. We're no better than our ancestors riding on dinosaurs all 5,000 years ago in the beginning of the world.

Money and the "self" is GOD, journalism is dead, and as a species, we should all be ashamed of ourselves. Generally speaking we allow ourselves to be herded around like cattle by a very small portion of the population, to their ends.

On the other hand, so as not to appear as if I am totally misanthropic, I still love humanity. We have so much potential, we just need to get our shit together, set our perspectives back to what's truly important in this world, and evolve beyond the current paradigm.

Ram

Charts and graphs of interest:
http://starvation.net/terrorism-vs-starvation-1968-2003.htm
http://www.warresisters.org/pages/piechart.htm
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/FASTATS/deaths.htm

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WebShaman said:

I think that having the boys vaccinated is better than the alternative.

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Try to get the vaccine without the Thimerosal (mercury) if you can..

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SleepingWolf said:

A quarter of a million people die annually in China from automobile accidents - doesn't make the news though.

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I think the reason for that is, as far as the western media is concerned, China is "way over there" and not of much interest to the general public unless they are making fools of themselves in reality programmes. Also don't forget how powerful the motor industry still is especially in lobbying western politicians and media moguls.
They would make much more money by showcasing something inane like a photo or video of a celebrity picking their nose in public.

Here in topsy-turvy Blighty we have just recently had a government appointed advisor who has been sacked for daring to suggest that drugs such as cannabis ecstasy and LSD are much less harmful than alcohol. The government employed him because of his expertise but not giving the answer the government wanted was a sacking offence.

[doh] Did I say suggest? I meant proving statistically [/doh]
[double doh] forgot to say right on Ram I agree with your sentiments [/double doh]

(Edited by Tao on 11-01-2009 02:10)

guys I have the vaccine. You're gonna have to kill my monkey to vaccinate everyone in your viccinity. Otherwise, you're gonna have to shoot poisonous darts at everyone in the meantime.

I've simiannapped helven's monkey so all inmates in my "viccinity" give the secret knock on my cell door if you require a vaccine.
Herbert, the monkey in question, is quite happy to be part of our experiments as long as we supply him with cookies, pots of tea and backdated videos of the Banana Bunch.
All together now;

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Tra-La-La, La-La-La-La
Tra-La-La, La-La-La-La
Tra-La-La, La-La-La-La
Tra-La-La, La-La-La-La

One banana, two banana
three banana, four.
Four Bananas make a bunch
and so do many more.

---

Hey hey we're the monkeys!

We're always messing around!



WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

Here in houston from the many decisions i have heard many are mixed regarding the swine flu shots.
Many are not going to get the shot because of the rush to get the vaccine and it may have adverse affects now or in the future. They believe not enough study has been done.
Just last week a child was given the vaccine and got neurological damage. The child cannot talk when he walks forward only when he walks backward..(i think this is what i was told).
The first scare here was pretty bad. The management here at work gave us each clorox wipes, disenfectants and hand cleaners. Now it has settled down somewhat. The frenzy is gone. Though a student, a 16 year died last week of swine flu... but he had other health issues. We had two relatives in canyon lake, texas who are children that did have the swine flu and they survived it.

I am not going to get the vaccine when its offered. I will take my chances.
An attorney I work with has 4 children and he will not have them injected with the vaccine.

The real facts are and you do not hear this in the news media every day is that people have been dying from complications of the flu for years. My sister's friend who was around 40 got the flu and went down hill. She got pneumonia from it and died. She had no other health issues. Older people get the flu and die all the time from complications.

I tend to think the media has really helped in making people anxious and worried and afraid.

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jade said:

I tend to think the media has really helped in making people anxious and worried and afraid.

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Absolutely.
As for safety, this is essentially just dead virus, with or without an adjuvant.

Some people will die just smelling a peanut, others will lose their livers taking too much Tylenol, everyone reacts differently but the majority will have no adverse effects.

I'm going to get the vaccine because it doesn't scare me and I don't like the prospect of puking and crapping my guts out. However I will never wait hours in line for it.

Some people here are actually camping overnight to get it. Talk about poor management by the government.

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jade said:

The real facts are and you do not hear this in the news media every day is that people have been dying from complications of the flu for years. My sister's friend who was around 40 got the flu and went down hill. She got pneumonia from it and died. She had no other health issues. Older people get the flu and die all the time from complications.

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On average, between 1979 - 2003, 41,400 people per year.

Well, we have not had ourselves or the boys vaccinated yet.

The reason being, none of the doctors here are saying anything about the mercury in the shots (the one without is not yet available here).

We specifically asked about it, and after much Ahhhmmming and Ohhhhhing, came the reply "there is not that much and it poses no harmful side effects to either children or pregnant women".



I can't believe doctors are saying crap like this here!

Anyway, I want to thank Sleepingwolf for the tip - thank the FSM that we did not have the boys vaccinated!

Things here in Germany are a cesspool of misinformation.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

OT (sort of): My mother's neighbour lost his girlfriend to the common cold. Not flu' or some nasty new bug... just the common cold. Took two or three days from perfectly fit and healthy to making him a common-law widower. It's one of the most horrid things I can imagine.

On the subject of the vaccine - I believe that over here, you can request one that doesn't contain mercury.

Yup, mercury. So you can choose the standard vaccine and contribute to the accumulation of mercury in your system (had vaccines as a child, or dental fillings... or eaten fish..?) ...or choose a vaccine that may have already exceeded its shelf-life (ie- contaminated multi-dose vial).

Hard choices.

Experts say that you'd get about as much mercury from the vaccine as from a can of tuna. I don't think I've ever tried injecting tuna...

(Edited by White Hawk on 11-12-2009 23:37)

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White Hawk said:

Experts say that you'd get about as much mercury from the vaccine as from a can of tuna. I don't think I've ever tried injecting tuna...

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That would hurt!



As a kid I used to play with mercury.

The liquid forms the cutest little balls. I would rub them with my hand to make sure it had a chance to penetrate my skin.

So if you can avoid it, why not. But should you not vaccinate..that's a much tougher decision.

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Thimerosal is a mercury-based preservative that has been used for decades in the United States and internationally in multi-dose vials (vials containing more than one dose) of some vaccines to prevent the growth of microorganisms, such as bacteria and fungi, which may contaminate them.

The 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines that FDA licensed are manufactured in several formulations. Some are produced in multi-dose vials and contain thimerosal as a preservative. Some 2009 H1N1 influenza vaccines are also produced in single-dose units and do not contain thimerosal. In addition, nasal spray, is produced in single-dose units and does not contain thimerosal. More information is available at http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccination/thimerosal_qa.htm

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(Edited by SleepingWolf on 11-13-2009 00:42)

My wife works daily with h1n1 patients. The observation to pass along would be that if you fall into the "at risk" category/profile get the shot.

___________________________________________________________________________
?Privatize the Profits - Socialize the Losses.? Randi Rhodes

(Edited by NoJive on 11-13-2009 00:53)

Oh yes - seems obvious now - you wouldn't have a multi-dose vial without Thimerosal... my bad. *slaps head*

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WS: Things here in Germany are a cesspool of misinformation.

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Ditto. The whole mercury in the vaccines thing...always nice to see that doctors are telling people that the most toxic non-radioactive metal known to man is not dangerous if injected. Doesn't matter how much there is and the verdict is still out on the effects to children's developing brains, lots of conflicting studies there. Lot's of interests monetarily too. Really don't want to admit that it is harmful because there would be a deluge of lawsuits, better to just phase it out quietly, much like they are doing with dental amalgams.

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White Hawk: Experts say that you'd get about as much mercury from the vaccine as from a can of tuna.

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Experts are often wrong.

On the topic of H1N1: Interesting observation here in the states...some dude shoots up a bunch of people on a military base and you would think H1N1 had been cured. Have not heard a word on the networks since. FEAR FEAR FEAR, and then silence. Blah.

Ram

You have to admit that as a society we're very selective on which substances we avoid like the plague / those we want banned.

Parents are quick to allow their 13 year old kids to get cell phones..totally disregarding the mounting evidence suggesting that cell phones are more dangerous than smoking. Will these kids die from brain tumors at 20?

The same parents will let their kids eat themselves into obesity - adopting sedentary couch potato life-styles as well - again with the parents knowing full well the risk of diabetes and heart disease.

But add a mercury based preservative and everyone just flips out.

So wait for the single dose i guess.

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(Edited by SleepingWolf on 11-15-2009 17:23)

Good point. It does scare one to think of the health problems looming in this country, especially from the areas of nutrition. 1 in 10 children are expected to have early onset of diabetes or something, and the number is even higher among African Americans, 1 in 4. People seem to be getting a little more conscious of the things they put in their bodies, but the damage is done, and it is so much easier and cheaper to eat garbage than it is naturally.

Don't have a cell phone, and I don't plan on getting one if I can avoid it.

My daughter does, but then, she is 14 and her mother bought it for her. Nothing I could do about it.

I will not be getting cell phones for the boys.

No letting our kids eat to obesity or adopting sedentary couch potato life styles. As my daughter was living with us, she lost weight. Gained it back again at her mother's. Again, nothing to be done about it.

To be honest, we do everything that we can to filter out the crap. Life is full of enough of it later to keep them occupied for a lifetime, without having to have it force-fed to them from their parents as children.

I am sure that years later, there will be things that we didn't "know better" about. I just hope that it won't be all that bad.

WebShaman | The keenest sorrow (and greatest truth) is to recognize ourselves as the sole cause of all our adversities.
- Sophocles

If you're still worried http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=swine_flu

He's always right, you know. Even when he contradicts himself. It's a weird quantum thing. Just trust in Maddox.

I love that site.

Blaise..

hehe..haha..that was good..
I am so sick with the flu..and its bad....feel like I have pneumonia......hope i survive it..
if you don't see another post from me..I died....