Not sure if you have heard of James Donahue, but he believes some interesting things, one of which is that Lucifer...not God; is the true creator of humanity.
This is interesting, to me; because it brings up many ideas. if Lucifer was the true creator, and could bring peace on earth. It makes sense that God would say "Lucifer will bring a time of FALSE peace..."
Anyway, I have to get going...just thought I would stop by real quick.
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 12-31-2009 23:50
Oh man that article is full of a bunch of bunk.
quote:
Donahue believes Lucifer is a reference to an alien being, or civilization, that manipulated the genes of Earth primates to create humans.
wow! talk about crazy. That is just jammed pack with nuttiness.
I for one am all about some religious studies (esp. the New Testament) and I would love the thought that there are other life forms out there, but this is just too far gone for me.
I apologize Gilbert Norlander, but that article lost it all after the first couple of paragraphs.
It is true that the word Lucifer is actually Latin. And that it did refer to the light that Venus gave off, but after that it all fell down. I was hopeful when first reading it. Thinking that it would give off some great point about how the idea of Lucifer was more of a misinterpretation than anything. The fact that the "snake" that Adam and Eve talked with was never really mentioned as being "Satan". That kind of thing. But nope!
I know, it is a bit strange, but an interesting sci-fi take that I find amazing. I try and imagine that the people who write this stuff truly believe it ... and what if they are right?
Started out good, then lost me as soon as aliens were mentioned.
>echo CPrompt
Bed Time Stories for Ugly Children comic book had some really awesome issues about Lucifer and his fall. One of them was from Michael's or Gabriel's viewpoint (I can't remember which), and one of the others was from Lucifer's view. Absolutely fantasic reading and art work.
And then the comic book series simply called Lucifer. I read a few issues and it was pretty engrossing. I was awestruck when Lucifer was lounging in the pool and he had his revelation. Absolutely brilliant.
I have always wondered why people separate angels/Gods from aliens. In reality, they are aliens : beings we do not understand. What makes us think they are something special; from some alternate reality? I believe they exist in this plane with us, are beings like us, only far more advanced with a different understanding and control of the laws of physics/spirituality that we live by.
Geez... was looking up the good ol' bringer of light, and I have to land here.
As is, he is not God : originally, he is a positive entity though as you will discover, then distorted into a demonic figure.
The idea you mention is at the heart of a tradition called gnosticism, the tradition of the Wachowsky brothers, who believe that an "evil God", the Demiurge, trapped mankind into a holographic illusion they represented as the Matrix. The "Architect" symbolizes that Demiurge, and the allegory of mankind as fallen angels they cherish.
This old tradition was founded through the scriptures that the "Council of Nicea" decided to remove from the official Bible, apocrypha (texts reserved to priests, secrets, already an abuse imo). It is very similar to tantric buddhism for example, and probably, extremely close to original Christianity (before it became an excuse for manipulation),
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 01-09-2010 03:48
quote: argo_navis said:
was founded through the scriptures that the "Council of Nicea" decided to remove from the official Bible
mmm...actually, it is a misconception as to what role Constantine and the Council of Nicea had in the Bible. Most of the books that were labled as "scripture" were already in place. Most of the events at the Council of Nicea had to do with the discussion as to whether or not Christ was "human" or if he was a "spiritual being" and closer to God.
If you read the Mathew, Mark and Luke as to how Christ is portrayed in these gospels, you can see this pretty clear. Taking Mark first, then Mathew and then Luke, Christ starts out as a very human person. Then as the books go on, he become more God like. This is where we get the Holy Trinity. There had to be a way of bringing it all together. So not only was Christ a human, he was also a spiritual being. Hence the "Father - Son - Holy Ghost"
As for Constantine, I am sure there was more political reasons as to why he brought everyone together to discuss this matter. ;-)
What is really interesting to me is how it is another misconception as to the serpent that spoke to Adam and Eve. You talk to most people and they will tell you it was satan / Lucifer. However, no where in the Bible does it say that the serpent and lucifer are the same
quote: CPrompt said:
What is really interesting to me is how it is another misconception as to the serpent that spoke to Adam and Eve. You talk to most people and they will tell you it was satan / Lucifer. However, no where in the Bible does it say that the serpent and lucifer are the same Later,C:\
True, but there are very few places in the Bible where it says specifically "this is this (or that)." For example, Jesus never actually refers to himself as the "son of God" (the term he uses for himself is "the Son of Man"), but it is obvious that he considers himself the son of God (see Matthew 26:63-64).
At any rate, there's a lot of metaphor and symbolism in the Bible. Genesis 3:15 ("And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel.") does seem to indicate that the serpent is a symbol for Lucifer/Satan, or at least related to him.
As far as the whole Lucifer as God, thing... pretty much what argo navis said. Didn't we have this discussion on gnosticism before? It all sounds very familiar.
I might have a few new elements to throw in though.
The historicity of the Bible, as we know, is subject to caution. (errata : Herod) has allegedly done a lot of things in there, for instance, which aren't seconded by any official record.
Approx 900 years before Christian era, temples of Yaweh were already built and used.
Digging a tad further into Kabbalah, a mystical read of the Torah, we find a whole new significance to the name of Yaweh : http://www.lightworkers-federation.com/wiki/en/index.php/Jesus_Christ
Everywhere but in Christian and Norse mythology, they are a symbol of life.
And as for the purpose of the Council of Nicea, I'd love references CPrompt, thank you for mentioning,
because the body of work referred to as apocrypha is immense : http://www.gnosis.org/library.html
Of particular interest to me is the Gospel of Mary Magdalene and what it mentions about "sin", assimilating it
to the notion of karma in oriental traditions.
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 01-09-2010 16:36
quote: argo_navis said:
Of particular interest to me is the Gospel of Mary Magdalene
Ah yes, another favorite of mine. Not unlike the satan/serpent thing, the Mary that is stoned in the Bible makes no actual reference to Mary Magdalene ;-)
For the references, I will have to dig up my books. More than likely you can pick up some books by Bart Ehrman on the subject. And if you are really into this sort of thing, I would recommend just about any of his books.
The thing is : I have traced the origins of spiritual traditions all the way back, as far as I could, and found that when one looks at them with some experience of their ritual application, in my case, Buddhist meditation (tantric Buddhism), well... the puzzle takes a whole new form.
For example : the Kundalini awakening depicted in Tool's video is an allegory of what Taoist legacy calls "dan tian",
a phenomenon National Geographic actually measured, where chi is released from a center/chakra at the base of the abdomen,
and twirls as two "serpents" along the spine (these etheric channels are, in Hindu/Buddhist traditions, referred to as Ida and Pingala whirling around the Sushumna trunk). National Geographic reported the Kundalini awakening produces intense heat.
What does it have to do with what we just discussed? Everything.
The serpents in a spiral, inherently, are allegories of human DNA in addition to the representation of Ida/Pingala channels.
They are very often depicted as "coiled around the Tree of Life". So I asked myself...
A tad deeper, and while it takes an extensive analysis of Egyptian items and records, Horus/Osiris seem to be the seeds of the mythology of Jesus. Such echoes of ancient Egyptian civilization are found all over the Biblical tradition. For example, Saint Christopher... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher
More than likely you can pick up some books by Bart Ehrman on the subject. And if you are really into this sort of thing, I would recommend just about any of his books.
On the topic of choosing the books of the bible though, I can't say I entirely agree with you c:\.
Surely, a lot of the books that made the cut were already being used widely, but there was still great debate and disagreement on many of them.
While highly interested in all quality researches already available, thank you, I can't help but wonder what's left to discover on the kilometers of bookshelves kept there.
From: there...no..there..... Insane since: May 2001
posted 01-11-2010 03:12
quote: DL-44 said:
Surely, a lot of the books that made the cut were already being used widely, but there was still great debate and disagreement on many of them.
absolutely right. The books that *did* make the cut were being used widely, there were a lot of bibles floating around at the time of Jesus and further on. There are some books like Thomas that were apparently very popular in its day but didn't make the cut for some reason. If I'm not mistaken, in Thomas' gospel, it has some stories on how Jesus was a little helion when he was a kid and actually killed another kid he was made fun of or something like that. Certainly not a story you would want in regard to the saviour of the world.
However, I am pretty sure that the topic of "what gospels are to go into the Bible" was never actually discussed at the Council of Nicea. I could be wrong about that though as I can't find anything to say "yeah" or "ney"
url=http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263176068&sr=8-7]Jesus Interupted[/url] is very good as well.
Yeah, he kills the boy, then resurrects him to witness in his favor I think
Which would have been perfectly compatible with the idea of Jesus taming his own inner demons when reaching maturity
("destroying Lucifer") and the idea of him as Son of Man. In fact, in all spiritual traditions, specifically shamanism, there are, to this day, rituals which consist of exploring the inner darkness completely before exploring the inner light.
With this in mind, the term I used was "scriptures", not specifically gospels.
>> was founded through the scriptures that the "Council of Nicea" decided to remove from the official Bible
And again thank you for all these references.
----------
Another interesting bit which goes back much further than Christian Era, also, is the book of Enoch.
The book of Enoch in question shares striking similarities with other texts attributed to two divinities which tend to blend.
Hermes to Greeks, Thoth for Egyptians. While the connection, again, is not obvious, many sources associate Enoch to these two. The "Corpus Hermeticum" of Hermetics, for example, as well as the "Smaragdine Tablets" which puzzled anyone from Plato to Newton to Jung.
The connection from Egyptians to Greeks, and later Coptic, Orthodox and Christian traditions seems to be Phoenicians,
whose alphabet gave birth to Sanskrit - as well as runes. And the "platform" which connected them all appears to be Byblos.
But there's a lot more to all this... an Aborigenes special : I'd love your opinion on what will follow..
Well, gonna wish all of you a wonderful year 2010 - for warfare is getting old worldwide and creative/constructive exchange, much more interesting I believe, and some more things to ponder..
Thanks for all your insight...I will have to read carefully thru all of it.
quote:who believe that an "evil God", the Demiurge, trapped mankind into a holographic illusion they represented as the Matrix. argo_navis
This idea really sent chills down my neck! I would image nothing so grand as what is in the matrix, but more of like...a fog. I also wonder if we are our own Demiurge, doing this to ourselves. We need to focus our attention on breaking thru the "fog" that surrounds us in the daily craziness of life.
I had an encounter with the devil..
I was doing my nightly prayers and was asking God about issues I have had since teens years...like why me...I was praying pretty hard with all my heart when I got a kinda of inner voice speaking to me...not audible..it was God and he said..."daughter..that is not of me...i desire you to be happy..."...then I got this revelation that all this time it was because of him...the evil one...I started to feel strong and angry at the evil devil...I then did something i was told never to do....i called upon the devil......and was telling him.. like I know its you and I am not afraid of you....dada..dada...da...I really felt a strong conviction to fight him...then from out there somewhere..I was shown a vision....like it was a huge 56" TV...It was of a two story home and in the front there was a big bay window on the first floor..Inside the window was a huge black shadow. It had a body of a man and head of a cow with two large bend in-ward horns. It was looking at me..saying..."here I am...I am in your house and here I will stay."
I was lead to think he was not leaving...I then looked at him like we were confronting each other and I let him know...."is that all you are a shadow, you don't have the guts to show me who you really are...Well..then I am not afraid of you...give it all you got because we are going to do battle and your never going to get my soul...." Then the vision was gone...I later told a friend of mine about it. I told him..."I called upon the devil and he came." He asked me what were you doing that he came?..I told him i was praying..He said. "You didn't call upon the devil and you came...God answerd you prayers...He showed you what you are up against and how weak the evil one really is...Ever since that vision..I have no symptoms and do not need any medication. I don't know what it even feels like to go there like I was...So I know and believe there is a real devil. And he is only strong if I allow him to be.
Yeah... those lingering shadows can be a problem. A good air freshener can sometimes do the trick, but a deep clean of the carpets will be most effective...
____
I've always thought that if they did exist, the Devil would have been the one responsible for religion, idolatry, filthy-rich religious leaders, and the oppression of free will. The other one would have been the party animal - Lucifer kept raining on the parade with his holier-than-thou bullshit until he was asked to leave. It's the only thing that makes sense to me - if creation is deliberate, it's for the sake of fun and adventure, and the whole concept of spending one's life in servitude to humans bearing the symbol of a god just has to be the wrong way.
If I were religious, I'd have to hope above all else that my chosen deity had a love of rock n'roll, knew a good beer from a pissy lager, and could appreciate the view of a nice arse in a pair of leather trousers. Anything else would just be... evil.
Seriously though, Jade - is there any chance you could introduce me to your local guy - the shit my guy sells never gets me that high... o.O
Wow - the last time I lurked around the PhiloSilly forum, I think this exact conversation was going on in several threads... I suspect Gilbert of instigating at least one of them!
Remember that religious traditions are man-made creations - regardless of the truth of the spiritual energy behind them. In years of personal study in a variety of religious traditions, I have learned that most religions teach basically the same things with different dogmas. The archetypes are the same, whatever names are given. Each new version builds on what has gone before.
The Old Testament mentions Satan, which is an old Hebrew word that means simply "Adversary". Lucifer is technically a different individual. The two have merged as history has progressed (Lucifer became "The Adversary"). But if you believe that God made the world, he also made the angels and is thus responsible for creating his own "Adversary." He would be aware that in order to fully appreciate what is good, one must also know evil.
The apocryphal texts and the old gnostic writings are fascinating to read and we could argue all day about which interpretation of events is "correct." Remember the Bible as it is today is a construct of men for men designed to convey a specific message. The books left out were left out intentionally because they did not convey the appropriate message. Several Church councils were responsible for editing "God's Word." Constantine recognized that Christianity was a growing religion and as a competent governor, he took full advantage of the fact. In addition to the Council of Nicea, Constantine is responsible for blending elements of Mithraism and Sun Worship with the original Christian beliefs. And on top of it all, he was a momma's boy and his momma was a Christian. He had a vested interest in keeping the old Queen Helena happy. Religion has always been a tool of government used to control the morals and behaviors of the masses. Somewhere in this forum is a great conversation about Nicea wherein I went out on the web and found tons of informative links... someone with more time can seek it out if you're interested.
In the end, it is important that you believe in something greater than yourself - in order to have something to aspire towards and which reminds you how very small we all are.
It is important that you treat yourself and others with love and respect.
Beyond that - the exact methods you use to convey your respect to your spiritual higher power is entirely up to you and there is no one way to go about it.
Whatever you may think of Satan...its for u...thats fine.
But what I saw was a spiritual message of warfare between good and evil.. For me, the devil is a real force. This visual was not something I made up or was even thinking to see...It came to me for a reason. If some of us believe in a heaven power we have to believe in a power that works against it..Its proven by the nature of things in the way our world is every day..Good will vs bad will...This goes on all the time around us. Why does it benefit us to be good as opposed to bad? Good is healthy for our mindset and for all humanity. Why would good stop at death and bad too for that matter.f
I was reading a religious article the other day of a man who had lost his mother. While praying one day he got a vision...of his mother... She was in a place of burning...She told him, She was purging for her offenses and had been there for 30 years...She told him she needed his prayers and to keep praying for her so she could get out of where she was. She was not in hell. She was a believer. She reached out as if to touch his arm. The vision then dissappeared. He felt she had physically grabbed him. When he looked down he saw his shirt had a burn mark of his mothers hand on it. He felt he was chosen also to relalte that there is a place of purification before you can attain the presence of the almighty power. And the shirt is suppose to be proof for his message. There is a book called the burning soul and it has the picture of the shirt and its on display somewhere.
Attending a Christian theological study on heaven that has changed my perspecitve on how I vew heaven and where heaven really is. Many of us think that heaven is a far away up there or out in s pace of time or maybe on a certain galaxy. For us as Christians we are given many clues in our scriptures that Heaven is here on earth. One of the clues is...in evangelizing when Jesus says "heaven is suddenly upon you" and in the prayer he gave us in the "Our Father" It has a line where Jesus says, "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"
There is a spirit world that exist all around us...Sometimes humans are able to tap into this world, and sometimes spirits are able to tap into ours. What separates us is the level of perfection stages these spirits are e in. Time may have no affect in these levels or could be time moves slower or faster. In biblical messages we read all over "7" is used to relate the highest level of perfection or plenty or what satisfies. God is at 7. Thru these levels of perfection, purification takes place to achieve the next highest level. When some die, depending on how they lived determines what stage or level they go into. This explains all the spirits who roam the earth that connot enter the eternal light of God. Heaven is on earth but in the supernatural. It could be it is the earth we live in now but a more wonderful and beautiful world with all kinds of beauty that we cannot imagine in the skies, colors, scenery, etc...This also could pertain to what is opposite of good. Those who go to a state of emptiness, or darkness, suffer the consequences of what they deserved with the most horrible being the last level.
The quote "thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven" has nothing to do with the position of heaven in relation to Earth. Personally, I thought the idea of heaven being "up there" and hell being "below" went out around the time people started using soap.
white hawk i like what you quoted.
but what about the fact that we ourselves are sinners and we have to worry about us so who would indeed pray for lucifer.
on the other hand the article was too much fictive for my understanding, even if something like this happens, there would be too much of controversies for people to actually believe anything, the human nature always rejects change.
Adding this to the quotes page: http://www.ozoneasylum.com/5175
"...religious traditions are man-made creations - regardless of the truth of the spiritual energy behind them" ->bodhi23
I highly recommend reading the forward at least. A friend recommended it to me, and I struggled thru it for quite some time, trying to grasp the phrasing and strange use of words..but once I grasped it, it really made sense. There are many ideas that it is all fake, but whatever...it is something written by someone (or something as they claim), and very interesting.
The basic idea is that there was a great nothingness. Out of that nothingness, a consciousness formed, which started to notice it was separate from that nothingness. This consciousness is god. Then God created 7 super-universes, one of which we are apart of, and our planet is called Urantia...Jesus (referred to as Christ Michael) is the ruler of this super-universe. It is set up just like a political system, with councils that are represented at the different levels...and some other strangeness. Here is Wikipedia info: Wikipedia Link
The reason I mention this is that the Urantia Book has a very interesting perspective on Lucifer...which would be pointless to read without first reading the Forward.
jade's point is actually very interesting, thank you for sharing : it is frequent of Lucifer to appear, recently, to dispel the negative aspects of his reputation.
To a Christian, it is extremely important to know that the "devil", after all a symbol of a war in Heaven I don't believe in, is just able to tempt what's already inside of us : unacknowledged "sinner nature".
For a while, he'd play scapegoat for this reason, we weren't able to handle our shadows, but truth is that much like Satan (a distinct entity), he plays a role in Creation. He serves.
posted 12-31-2009 16:21
