Topic awaiting preservation: Auto-ID: Tracking everything, everywhere

Say goodbye to privacy and anonymity...

http://boycottbenetton.org/rfid_overview.html



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 07-28-2003).]

Ah yes I saw an article on the news about this last night.

Again its another issue like Palladium - people need to know about it 9and its implications) so they can make informed decisions. I doubt I'd buy a tagged item on principle (as long as we know what is tagged and what isn't).

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

I like the idea to put an Auto-ID on bank notes and why not on passports ( to identify the fake ones ) and such critical stuffs.
Some governments already violates privacy so imagine what they ( and others ) gonna do with such a thing.

A side effect could be to see some community of naked people trying to fool the Auto-ID trackers by swapping lots of objects frenetically.

Mathieu "POÏ" HENRI

Yikes.

The world is truly a frightening place....

I think I'm going to dedicate a microwave to fixing this problem. You know my old, three hundred pound, can make a rubber turkey microwave should do the trick. Buy what I want and waste their money at the same time. Works for me.

This is really frightening, especially the fact that they hope to have the technology in use within a couple of years. Everytime I read about something like this I can't avoid thinking about '1984', with this and Palladium we don't have far to go until that society is reality...

I can see the 'need/wish' to track important things like passports, offical documents, credit cards and etc, but tracking everything is just freaky.



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"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"

ok.. if it uses radio waves.. coldn't someone build a little wave scanner to scan where the device is at and yank it out or disable it?

weeee....

Apparently these things can be as small as a grain of rice or as small as a paper fibre for putting in bills (paper money) in order to track those that use only cash. So maybe you can microwave everything! It does not bear thinking about.. all choice is gradually being taken away from us. I mean who is behind all of this? Who would want to track every object, every human activity? Who wants to live in a world like this?

hey, that micro-wave idea is great-haha!
but you gotta remember that for all the people trying to do this sort of thing, there's just as many others out there finding the cracks

I am reminded of "Escape from L.A."

'666' World Code. Some rich bastard out there is going to think of this so he can make his money his again. Some ho-hum nonchalant 'communications satellite' will go up with an EMP generator piggy-backed on it. BZZZT!!! (Much to Suho's envy) there goes the trackers... along with everything else... except for what is in this guys vault... oh... and everyone with a pacemaker gets cooked too.

Yep, definately 'big brother looking out for us..' yeah right. I just hope our lives will not be like the movie Escape from L.A.

My favorite quotes from that movie....

quote:

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Malloy: The United States is a non-smoking nation! No smoking, no drugs, no alcohol, no women - unless you're married - no foul language, no red meat!

Snake Plissken: Land of the free.

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The programmer's national anthem is 'AAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH''

Wolfen's Sig Site

Holy crap, that is a little scary.

However, with the increasing amount of money being poured into this kind of stuff, reliance on these kind of systems will open up doors to new kinds of problems. What if some electromagnetic field fries the chips in a bunch of products? Those products then constantly start "reporting themselves stolen" so to speak...

There are lots of good uses for this kind of tech, lots of bad ones too but reliance on these kind of systems scares me because of the potential for extra complications if it ever fails, and the mere saturation of this kind of thing will only likely increase the chances of someone trying to exploit it.

I can understand the need and the want for companies to embrace this technology but do we really need to low jack our toothpaste? Aside the marketing information (which could very well be collected from systems set up to collate information from existing bar code systems) I see no real benefit to the consumer nor the company in regards to minor off the shelf supermarket products.

On the other hand, if this kind of technology is combined with home appliances then it can have great benefits for the consumer without any need to abuse their privacy. Having food that tells the microwave how to cook it would be kinda cool and having a fridge with a display screen that lists how long you have untill the products inside your fridge expire and a listing of the nutritional information etc etc...

These kind of applications makes a world of sense but the mere saturation of this kind of technology will likely breed a new world problems. I just hope governments are up to the task of controlling these kinds of developments and predicting any possible problems they could cause so we can minimize any potential damage or privacy infringements. Not a job I'd like to have, that's for sure.

Although I'm not to up-to-date with my privacy laws, I think it's about time governments started paying serious attention to the developments of these kinds of technology. I'd think a new set of laws and guidelines to govern the use of this tech are long overdue.

Ack, sorry about the rant... I've been doing that a lot lately in these kind of threads. I'll try and keep things a little more concise in the future. =)

It seems all to paranoid for me. "Don't Panic". Frankly I don't much realy care. If someone or the goverment wishes to track me so be it. Of ourse there's always potental for abuse, but then doesn't the realy exist for everything. Unless you wish to live alone eating nothing but berrys and route on public land in Montana. You would be tracked some how. In the end does realy doesn't matter how. Ever since records have been keeped, tracking has been possiable. Besides the information effectivly something goverment sucks at! I goverment and such a great job tracking the 911 terrorist and tracking illegal entry to the US. Even with red flags everywhere.

As for the corporate sector, better tracking mean effective target advertising. This may sound like a bad thing, not so. Accurate target advertising makes it possiable to target only those who would be intrested. There for reducing cost, junk adverting, and increased sales. Advertsing cost money, it's in the intrest of all envolved to acurately target the customer. Even the customer benifits by receiveing less advertising and only what they would be intrested in. If there is enough competition in the product line, lower prices could result.

Wouldn't legitament web banner, pop up, and even spam be so bad if it came less often and was somthing you would be intrested in purchasing. A add for a new graphics program or cool new computer game for intrest. After all as bad as unwanted advertising is, without it the level of service on the internet would be a whole lot more expensive.


Personally I want tracking on my remote and car keys I seam to loose them daily. I would also be handy in tracking down the trainee who stole my favorite book. "Makeready" By Dan Margolis. Limited ed and can be replaced cheaply.

J. Stuart J.

I can see uses. It could help companies keep track of inventories, see where they should market certain products etcetera. It would reduce counterfeiting in money, help people find lost stuff (if you could track your own stuff).

I wouldn't object if they weren't keeping tabs on me personally, at least not having my name and stuff in my clothing.

I don't like this. Not at all!
This stuff is already in use in bigger supermarkets for inventory purposes.
What the have is a cheap scanner that you can pass over a box of, say razors, and get the exact amount in the box. So far so good.

Now, if they tag the clothes we buy they can have a cheap scanner in every corner and see exactly where you are and when...

Even worse, tag our money and you are bound to have scanners seep into the black market enabling anyone to walk by you and see exactly how much money you have on you. How's that for an inviting target. Or how about armoured transports...

We are people with free will and rights, not merchandise objects!
More info here http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/31461.html and here http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/55/31654.html

/Dan

{cell 260}
-{ a vibration is a movement that doesn't know which way to go }-

[This message has been edited by DmS (edited 07-29-2003).]

so the obvious answer is of course to learn enough about the technology to fake it.... Just make sure your fake got more power than the real ones, and it will always look like you only got a dime in your pocket and you're someone else every 42 seconds... plus, it will make forging a passport even easier, since no one will look on it anymore ;-)

Who actually carries cash on them nowadays?

I don't think I've shoped somewhere without the ability to pay with a key card / cedit card for a good year now.

As for people knowing where you are, hands up who doesn't have a mobile phone?... No one? Well, no surprises there.

[This message has been edited by Dracusis (edited 07-29-2003).]

for years now, i have put my money in my checking account and cash a check before i need to shop, get gas or have some "mad money" on me.. i find the idea of a bank knowing how and where i spend my money offensive - strictly a privacy issue for me.

i've had no (and still have no) mobile phone or cell phone - i originally saw their use as a move towards "1984" and didn't want to participate! also, i have no key card and no credit cards.. i gave up on credit cards years ago, too easy to abuse!

if you want privacy, you have to work at it... so i'm a nobody with nothing to hide.. so what? i have watched and become aware of the government and commercial world snooping and peeping because of decisions i made years ago to not be a part of the evolution of the world presented in the book "1984"

I do not use any plastic at all except for a check card that was given to me by my bank. Other than that, I mostly carry cash on me. Any graphics work that I do, I ask for in payment cash, there fore you would not have any fear of a check bouncing or them not having enough in their credit card. Or worse yet, a fake credit card. You do not have to report cash services to the IRS, that is why I do not like the idea of IDing cash currency. They would be able to monitor how much you have vs. against how much you make at work, if you guys get my drift...

[This message has been edited by Wolfen (edited 07-29-2003).]

quote:

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You do not have to report cash services to the IRS

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Who told you this? You're required to report all income to the IRS, regardless of the form of payment.

Has anyone here read the HandMaids Tale by Margaret Atwood? This seems awfully reminescent of that story. Take a gander at the Sample pages at Amazon to get an idea of what the story is about. The only thing that I thank the Gods for with these developing storms is that it isn't, or doesn't seem to be, religiously driven (at least not yet).

To those trying to hide their identity... good luck. I haev a friend who succeeded in this. He can't buy a house, he can't get a loan. It's a good thing you don't want credit cards... because you can't get one. Be prepared to be SOL in the future when paper money is a thing of the past and people are buying things with the chip in their hand. If you push against progress be prepared to be left behind. I hope you can survive that way. I know I can. I know how live in the wilderness. That's how you live once you're left behind. This is not the kind of progress that can be stopped by the average group of citizens, this is too important to the people at the top. They believe it's right and in their head it is, it's the enactment that is going to be flawed. Who has the tagline, "Flawless software exists in only two places, the programmers imagination and the saleman's lips" or something similar. Well the ideal crime fighting advances are perfect in their heads and easily abused in reality. The ruling factions have been blinded by the benefits and have ignored the potential damage that could be caused.

At any rate, pick up "Handmaids Tale" and give it a good hard look. Then read it. I'm thinking that it's going to turn out pretty accurate in some few decades.

you know wes, there's a differency between 'being supposed to'
and 'having to' ;-)

and you don't shed your identity all together...
you get a couple of extra ones.

Just like the guy in California who managed to get hundreds of people buying on
his 'consumer shopping card' (you know, 0.5% rebate, lot's of statistical data about a person).
Barcodes are easy to forge with any printer...
Guess he has one strange shopping list to that supermarket chain...

quote:

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Who actually carries cash on them nowadays?

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I do. Why wouldn't you? Didn't you just talk about the dangers of relying on technology that can fail?

quote:

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As for people knowing where you are, hands up who doesn't have a mobile phone?... No one? Well, no surprises there.

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~raises hand~
Yeah, there are still plenty of people around who don't.

And of course, it goes beyond just 'knowing where you are'. It reduces people to "advertising targets" and increases the ease for government agencies to make gross abuses of civil rights.

Well you could live on fresh fruit and vegetables for a start. Then buy all you clothes second hand/from old stock/abroad or meke them yourselves.... and I'll trade your version of photoshop 1.1 for 8 kilos of bananas... that I grew myself..



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 07-30-2003).]

Well considering my parents give me absolutely no money and I am not currently working, I do not have a Mobole Phone, nor do I plan on getting one anytime soon. Also I don't have a bank account, so I too carry money on me. And even when I do have a bank account I will still carry money on me.

All this is going to do is mark a select line of items, most likely not Fresh Fruits, Vegetables, Milk, Meats, most appliances, Toys, ect ect...

This is probably only for items like Vehicles, Cigarettes, OTC Drugs, Prescription Drugs, and the like. Although there will probably be alot of things marked that wouldn't seem logical to keep track of but this Auto-ID isn't to invade our privacy or purge us of some of our civil rights, it's most likely a system to keep track of "Hot Items" that are stolen and such.

I might not be right but this is how I feel.

auto-id is for more than "hot" items. it started as a means for wal-mart to keep track of inventory and they buy many different items by the train-load - cheaper that way. they have said to their suppliers that they will only be buying items marked that way. read the linked articles above ^^

as for unintended consequences, the children's game "hide and seek" will be a thing of the past if the kids get hold of a 'finder'



[edit - fix typos]

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 07-31-2003).]

quote:

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8 kilos of bananas... that I grew myself

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Well, unless you're a genetic engineer... http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/hlth_banana-13.html

the problem seems to be with the variety sold most often in mainland markets: this story has an excellent overview of the situation..

[edit - change linked story

[This message has been edited by velvetrose (edited 07-31-2003).]

On the often flakey coasttocoast last nite Katherine Albrecht was interviewed. http://www.coasttocoastam.com/
http://www.nocards.org/

cool! so then i could find my keys or glasses or anything when i lost it right?

asides from that, yikes.

DL: Yes I know those two statements are at odds, but I'm willing to accept those risks and I reserve the right to get pissed off if the system ever fails. =)

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Hmmm... ok, I want to express a couple of my vies on the issues being raised here but I need to rant for a bit in order to do that, bare with me...

The telecommunications industry is so big because everyone finds mobile phones useful. In fact, this goes back even further, everyone finds communication useful. The technology of writing (yes, writing is a technology, as is language of any form for that matter) granted us the ability to record information but when we developed the postal services we lost a certain amount of control as to who actually saw what we wrote down. The telephone was later invented and embraced yet complete strangers can listen to our conversations without us knowing. Telecom companies probably have logs of all the calls you've ever made on your mobile and the relay stations those calls were directed though as well as the duration and the time of the call along with the number you called identifying the person you were talking to.

The gas companies know how much gas you use per year.
The electricity companies know much much electricity you consume.
If your country uses water meters then the local councils know how much water you use etc ect... I could go on all day.

IMHO, we gave up our "privacy" the second we developed the ability to speak or scratch marks onto cave walls (I don't know which came first, probably the latter).

Each and every single one of these technologies require you to relinquish information about your day to day habits, how is this any different from these chips?

This technology will bring benefits to humanity and with that comes a certain loss of control. We can't possible maintain these systems individually so we must rely on external sources or networks to do this for us, by this we have no choice but to relinquish a certain amount of control and privacy.

The thing is, this kind of development has benefits on both sides of the fence and therefore it will most likely be embraced and assimilated into our day to day culture. At least, that's the way I see things.

Technology abuse is a completely separate issue and IMHO an issue that shouldn't factor into the development of that technology itself. I realize that kind of thinking created the atom bomb and lots of other fuck ups but hey, it's not a perfect world and the atom bomb led to lots of really useful stuff.

It'd be nice if the atom bomb it was never actually used on real people and I'd give up all of the technology created from it just to turn back time and stop it form bing used, but I don't blame the creator of the bomb nor the technology for that mistake -- just the person who gave the order to actually use it. Need I say that order had absolutely nothing to do with technology?

So, thats the reason why I'm all for this kind of tech. The way this technology is used has nothing to do with the technology itself and everything to do with the people who use it, which is the real issue here isn't it?

I pulled this off the www.nocards.org article about the Spy System in supermarkets.

quote:

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The Center's plan is to tag all the objects on the planet with RFID chips and track them via the Internet.

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What will happen when Palladium comes out if/when this is implemented?
Who will be paying for all the fees and stuff that Palladium will require?
Or will the new Auto-ID be so massive that Microsoft ends fees required?

Dracusis - What about the person who gave the order to create it? Wouldn't you stop all of the potential damage by telling them of the potential damage and telling them you would be willing to give up all of the possible benefits to stop all that harm?

And just for clarification... what are the benefits to the average person? I hardly see where anything lends towards the average person's benefit. If my bank watches where my money goes... lets say... food, computer games, technology and the like... how long will it be before they are gauging my risk factor for loans based on my purchases rather then my debt/asset ratio?

Basically what I hear you saying is that we should make things with definite possibilities of harm because this could be good for people. But we can regret it later and want to turn back the clock to stop it from happening. We can be willing to give up everything gained by this thing because of the damage caused by it. Why don't you want to make sure we avoid the danger and get the benefits BEFORE it's too late? Why not try and guide this, as one of the everyone who is going to be affected by it, in the right direction? Sitting in a holding pattern waiting is going to get nothing done. Making a MASSIVE move away from the tech that is causing the issues may make the 'person giving the order' think twice.



[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 08-01-2003).]

I think this technology could have a lot of advantages what with crime investigating and tracking down lost persons. Perhaps even with medical purposes, so as to document physical things with the human body. What kind of offs me is the immediate push toward the marketing end of it and it's use in product purchasing. I would probably end up planting my own gardens and hunting for food. I would have an eerie feeling knowing that I am being "watched" all of the time.

What's next? Monitoring sexual behaviors by planting a chip inside your bed that senses turbulence? What a tool for sex therapists!



[This message has been edited by Thumper (edited 08-01-2003).]

I think its a compromise. The people pushing this tech KNOW that people won't let themselves get tagged. So they are going for the next best thing to 'soften us up' for the eventuality of continual tracking at all times. Minority Report anybody?

Hmm what an interesting concept Thumper, I can see it now, condoms with Auto-ID, tampons, and all the other "private" things that we don't openly share with the public...

I can't wait!