Topic awaiting preservation: Ouch - $613 million fine... (Page 1 of 1)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/BUSINESS/03/24/microsoft.eu/index.html

INNOVATE THAT BILLY BOY!

Kekekeke...

That will hurt him for... oooh... about 3 months?

---
"The future is not written in stone.
It is written day by day,
What are you writing today?"
http://wulfius-khan.deviantart.com/
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/wulfius/

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

quote:

---

For its part, Microsoft has accused the EU of going too far in seeking a record fine for alleged antitrust abuses, saying it is being penalized for behavior permitted in the United States and did not realize it was acting illegally in Europe.

---

For the biggest tech company and the hundreds of lawyers it employs shouldn't someone have checked out the law?

-Dan-

I still think that the focus on the media player is unnecessary. Sure, it is good for competitors to be able to work with source code for better integration, but as bad as Windows Media Player is, Real and Quicktime are much worse.
For those who want a good player, they will be willing to go get winAMP or something else -- It doesn't matter if WMP is currently installed. For everyone else (who doesn't know or care about what is the best MP to use), at least WMP is free and it works better than the primary alternatives (the ones mentioned in the article).

[This message has been edited by jdauie (edited 03-24-2004).]

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

let's see, gross profit according to yahoo finance 26.50 x 10^9 USD.
Fine 613x10^6 USD

Ie. a little over 4 months at 2003 earnings. Nothing to worry about.

The case isn't that you can't install winamp, it is that the average user who gets their new computer will not know about the posability of getting WinAmp and will be pushed into using the WMP.

Microsoft is a monopoly in the Desktop Operating Systems market. When you buy a desktop computer from Dell you get windows on it. Then when you get windows you have a media player and a browser included which are also windows products, you are not offered a choice between products. You are automatically pushed into the Microsoft product.

This is like going shopping and buying a Grill. When you by the grill you are also given a propaine tank, and a cleaning brush for free. However when you visit most stores you also can easily see their selection of tanks made by other vendors, as well as brushes made by other vendors.

Microsoft has eliminated the ability to browse and choose. Even though you get the standard brush for free, there might be the delux brush available that you don't know about, but might have actually wanted.

Since the software distribution methods vary from the distribution of physical objects these cases are being used to determine what is the correct way to handle software distribution. What is being questioned here is if bundling their software is in effect affecting the markets of competitors unfairly.

I would be much happier if the Windows installer was more like a Linux installer, where it offered a couple of additional windows in which I could choose which software to install.

Media Player
-----
Windows Media Player (Reccomended)
WinAmp
Sonic
Real Player

Web Browser
-----
Internet Explorer (Reccomended)
Opera
FireFox
Mozilla

Something along those lines would allow choice, and would tell the users that there are many options, not just those options that are installed by microsoft.

Ask a very new user if they want a different browser. The answers will be something along the lines of either "What is a browser?" where you will say the way you get to web pages, and they will respond "Oh you mean internet explorer?" or they will say "There is something different than Internet Explorer?" or "No, I am used to Internet Explorer."

The same will be true of the other bundled products. This is where the abuse of monopoly status exists and is bad. It is not in experienced users, the problem exists for new users.

-Dan-

WarMage: very good explanation and proposition.

Now, a side effect of the trial may be the discovery ( and immediat exploit ) of many security gaps if the code source of Windows is effectively distributed. But if it's the only to get MS to fix them ...

quote:

---

did not realize it was acting illegally in Europe.

---

The fact redmond allowed that phrase to make it out of the boardroom is mind-boggling. I do really wonder sometimes just how much control BG has over his empire. He's asking us to beleive that his legal firm('s) have not 'parsed' every statute 'everywhere' that could present even minor problems.

Oh...and then there's that other 'minor' hitch something about "..ignorance of the law is no defence." Assholes!!

While I certainly enjoy seeing MS take a hit, and enjoy the 'big guy' having to be accountable to good business practice, I see big problems for the "average home user" if things like IE and WMP are removed from windows.

I guess it comes down to the user needing to be educated, but with such a multitude and diversity of software out there, the average joe with his new computer is going to blow the damn thing up trying to download and install software that he knows *nothing* about, and couldn't possibly distinguish between a good product and a bad product.

Of course, MS isn't the only doing such things - when you buy a Dell, you usually get "dell jukebox" and a dell imaging program with it. HP's and Compaq's have their own music and imaging apps. Should they then be forced to remove those apps from their computers?

I do beleive in allowing software developers access to the code.

I don't know that forcing MS to remove usability features from their OS is good.
What do we do then to help the clueless new computer owner find valid information about better browsers and the like? Two things are certain:

1) We will never reach a point where everybody who has to use a computer actually knows what they are doing.

2) We will never be at a place where people who don't know what they are doing simply don't use computers.

It's kind of like expecting everyone who owns a car to be a mechanic. Or, it's kind of like telling Ford that they can no longer put a stereo in their cars, because then the consumer is not being given the choice between car stereo manufacturers. I'd be pissed if I went to buy car and was told they couldn't put a stereo in it, that I'd have to go buy one from someone else....or I could take it home, and then come back and buy the stereo seperately.

Now, on the flipside, what MS is doing is along the lines of Ford making a car with it's own stereo, but not allowing other stereo manufacturers to have the specs of the electrical systems to properly manufacture alternatives.

We need to find the middle ground here, and EXPAND rather than exclude usability features for the consumer.

And, for the record, I use WMP because I like it far better than any other App I've tried.

DL-44

I disagree. I remember the days before Microsoft stole the internet browser.
Versions of IE and Netscape were pretty much on every free disk.
From company samplers to free magazine disk.

The only time I had to download a browser was when I needed the very, very latest version.

---
"The future is not written in stone.
It is written day by day,
What are you writing today?"
http://wulfius-khan.deviantart.com/
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/wulfius/

Ok.

But can/should the public rely on such things as sampler disks to outfit their computer?

Is it unreasonable for a computer buyer to expect to be able to connect to the internet without having to find additional software in such a manner?

I read an article about Bill Gates being part of the Lotto hoax with Foxtel, Bill Gates is abusing his role, illegaly.

Just out of curiosity because I've never bought one.

Do new Macs come with Quicktime already installed?

:::11oh1:::

DL-44: To go along your example with the cars and mechanics. Like you can ask/pay a mechanician / car reseller to install a better stereo/tires/equipment of your choice ( even if it's not those of the make of your car ) on your car, you can ask/pay the computer resellers/gurus to install your softwares of choice on your computer. Computer resellers should also play the game ( not the one of easyness, which strengthen MS's monopoly and discourage concurency and real innovation ) and let the people know about the alternative softwares.



[This message has been edited by poi (edited 03-25-2004).]

Yes, they do. But it's a lite version. Quick time pro costs money but it works far better than anything else I've tried. Then there's iTunes, iChat, iPhoto and iDVD which are free downloads or you can purchase a disk with all of them for $49 I think.

Poi - yes, but you can also very easily, yourself, uninstall whatever software you may not want, and install whatever software you do want.

This requires you to be at least somewhat educated.

So does dealing with a computer store and configuring things to your liking through them.

I do agree that more options need to be available and education needs to spread.

With all the heat Microsoft is taking and the slow but sure rise in the adoption of Linux, I think they have have one really good option left to make even more money.

All they have to do is start giving their software away for free.....then charge big bucks for the patches.

DL-44: Computer resellers are not some selling machines, people can ask them some advices like they do for a stereo or home video equipment. They can also seek some infos in magazines. My brother worked in several computer stores, and it's not rare to hear people ask a computer to play video games, browse the web, do office work but rarely ask about the software aspect of the machine.

IMO, another effect of that absence of knowledge in the mass public ( due to their fear of the 'geek' world and the monopoly position of MS ) is the huge rate of piracy. How many of us do know people using illegal softwares because they don't have the money to buy expensive packages or simply because they don't know about cheaper alternative softwares.

Now the question is : How do we educate the computer resellers, the mass public, the computer press ... ?
The Web Standards advocacy show a possible way to go by target the key people. But it takes a lot of time to break many years of monopoly and bad practices.

I don't knoiw what computer salespeople you've dealt with before, but all the ones I have dealt with have been just as bad as any car or appliance salesman.

They sell what makes them money.

That's their job.

Bottom line, like I said before, is we need to find the middle ground here. We need to make sure that in our rush to fuck MS, we don't end up fucking the consumer instead.

Now...if MS would wake up to the reality in the computer world today, and how potentially fragile their empire will be in the near future, that would be a good start.

But this is one of those 'be careful what you wish for' scenarios....