Topic awaiting preservation: C# - Inmates opinions? Should I learn it? (Page 1 of 1)

Hi guys,

Basically I'm looking to extend my knowledge further, whilst PHP is this summer's main subject for me to learn, I an interested in picking up an application programming language.

Now, from the apps that I see available for download around the web, C# seems to be capable of 'the good shit'.

I really have little interest in Java or Python or anything like that so I don't think I'd pick those up that quickly. But C# sounds interesting, although to be honest I don't fully understand the differences between the different 'flavours of C'. Also I have no idea where to start programming in C# or anything like that lol - I am a n00b but what I love best is jumping in at the deep end and struggling to make things work.

Also can anyone explain what exactly Mono is and how it being free is such a good thing? I know M$ like to charge for stuff, but is that the only way to develop with C#? What exaclty is it you are paying for?

Thanks for humouring me, I'm sure there will be some inmates laughing and my ignorance and naivety,

Jon

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Considering that Java is very similiar to C#, you've got a little contradiction going on up there. For application programming I would suggest any of the three you listed (Java, Python or C#). If you're planning on creating applications that needs a lot of processor power or hardware access I would suggest either C# or Java, but for most applications all the afore mentioned do an equally good job.

I've never used C#, only read about. The concept sounds nice and people who've used it seem to like it. Problems that I see with that language is that it currently doesn't work on any platform except Windows. Mono works on most platforms, but last I checked it lacked some of the functionallity in the Windows version. The language is also very young, so like any language it needs time to evovle before it reaches it peak. Microsoft is also going to have sole right to make changes to the language, which can be either good or bad. The key sell point of C# over Java has also been that each processor manufacturer (Intel, AMD) will supply special compilers that will make the code run as fast as possible, but these compilers doesn't exsist yet and might be a long way off.

Java is a good language with everything you might need. It is fast, easy code to read and since it has been around for quite some time it has lots of libraries to help you out. C# might become faster than Java if the promised processor dependant compilers are supplied, but as long as those remain in dreamland the difference in speed is insignificant. Java also has better support on various platforms, so for cross-platform programs either use Python or Java.

I have barely started to use Python, but so far I like it. Nice structure to the code and libraries for everything that I can think of needing a library for. I also prefere Pythons default GUI over Java's, but that is a matter of taste.

_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"
- the Golden Ratio -

I would recommend Java over C#. I still believe Java will keep hold of the market even while Microsoft does a C# marketting blitz. While looking for jobs you will still find many more jobs asking for java developers as opposed to C# developers.

If you are looking to get into applications programming with a potensial job and money at the end of the line, you should look into C. C programmers tend to make a little extra money when it comes down to it in a corporate enviornment. Most operating systems are written in C as well as many of the programs you used daily.

If they are not written in C they are most likely written in C++. There are a whole lot of differences between C and C++ but it mainly boils down to C++ being an extra layer over C which adds object orriented programming possabilities to C.

C# is a completely different type of language much like Java.

I would very much recommend a more open language like C or Java as opposed to C#. Your not going to easily port all of your C# projects around the different types of computers like you will be able to do with Java or even well written C.

It is a matter of taste. Different languages are only syntax you need to learn how to program before you go worring too much about language choice. Once you get good at programming the language becomes a secondary concern. You give me a full day with a syntax manual and the core API and I can program in any language you have (as long as it is based in english) I have had a real problem learning non english languages for some reason. The reason for this is that most languages are fundamentally very similar. They all have some type of integer and floating point number, they have booleans and characters. It is using your brain to put it all together and you simply need to know what the glue is, and if there is a good API that sits behind the language.

The API tends to be the hardest part. I have been programming in java for 5 years now and I still look at the API every single time I write a program. I am the same way with C (but most times you get to choose the API you are going to use), I will always have the OpenGL or the Gtk or SDL API's right in front of me when I am programming.

Dan
CodeTown.org

c# and java are very similar, they even share 40 of their 50 keywords or so.

Personally, I prefer c#'s class library - and, at least as long as you only wanna do windows, it has a very nice and fast gui library that looks just like regular windows apps. (Yes, I know java has serveral gui libs. and that's part of the problem.).

Python is definatly the higher level language, compared to both of them, but guis are still one big pile of different libraries. But IronPy - a .net implementation of Python is getting there... and then things could get to be interesting

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Yeah sure learn C#, sell you soul to the darkest pits of satans sphincter (Micro$oft to the naive )
Only to be rogered painfully when the technology dies on its arse quietly like so many Microsoft 'innovations'.

Passport anyone? .NET? COM? ActiveX? VB?

Oh yes, I know you can still find the zomboid remnants walking through cyberspace but is it alive?
NAY!

Stick to the core. Java, C++, you can not go wrong.



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http://wulfius-khan.deviantart.com/
http://www.users.bigpond.net.au/wulfius/

Well your answers are pretty much what I was expecting - I had a feeling Java would come out highly since the asylum is place for online learning and sharing and the sort of people that are into that sort of thing are generally open-source fans, multi-platform (windows and linux - not sure anyone here like osx much), and definitely anti-microsoft, or at least against the microsoft business practices whereby it tries to blast all competition into the ground.

I never use linux, no need and it as yet isn't capable of running the programs I use on a day to day basis (adobe and macromedia suites) although I know there are projects undergoing that enable this.

So windows is my main focus, I use it predominantly (little bit of osx, but I'm trapped into windows and it works well enough for me not to want to change).

So code portability isn't really a concern I have, however there is potentially going to be a time when if I have followed the windows only route I suddenly need to put something on a different platfrom but can't, I dunno when this might be, but it could happen.

My main gripe about Java is firstly it's naff look and speed, I hate the way it stands apart from the OS GUI and the way it is always quite slow to start up and just a few niggles with interfaces etc. Some might like the look of Java apps, but not me. Plus as far as I am aware Java require the Java runtime thing to be installed to enable programs to run.

This is why I was drawn to C#, since it produces 'Native GUI' looking apps which work like you'd expect.

C++ sounds cool, but I have always been put off by it's image of being 'the big stuff', the language of the top developers - I worry that it is too complex for my little mind.

I look in awe at the potential of XAML, and to me it makes so much sense (coming from a markup based background) and considering it also has a limited set of built in capabilities that allow it to connect to the file system and databases and the net without the need to code any backend. Obviously the more complex apps will require a code backend so Ideally I was hoping to find something that will be compatible with this future since it'll take me a while to learn something properly and by then longhorn may have shipped and I'd hate it if I couldn't use what I had learned with XAML too.

Also in respect to the comment about .NET, COM, ActiveX, having 'died on it's arse' I would disagree - they maybe haven't the huge success M$ was hoping for, but they still have a large role to play in windows/web development. Intranets is what I am thinking here, to be honest I'm sick of the word 'intranet' and how every company seems to want one but then never uses it or even if they do they hate using it. But anyhow, on a windows network .Net, COM, and ActiveX still can play a very useful role *sigh*.

I might get a book on C++ and properly assess whether I think I can cope with it, maybe just borrow it from the library LOL.

Thanks guys, I think I have a better idea now.

Final thought, what is your opinion on XAML? please don't just slag it off coz it's M$ and is a way off yet, I am interested in what you think about it but only if you have actually looked into it a bit and know what it should be capable of when it finally comes into the mainstream. I know that it isn't at all related to the original post and XAML and programming are completely different, but XAML does have a role to play in the future and with me being a multimedia design student I like things that look nice.

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Java comes out pretty highly because it is a work horse. Check the lastest benchmarks they aren't what everybody still claims they are. Java also has vast portability which actually means something if you are trying to be a real programmer as opposed to a kid in the sandbox.

If you are turned off of a language because of the look of the basic GUI decorations then you or the programs you have viewed have not taken advantage of.

JFrame.setDefaultLookAndFeelDecorated(true);

That simple line of code tells java to take its window decoration that are provided by the look and feel. So that is one down. If you don't like the rest of the widget's default look you can change that as well.

As for the comment about "excpecting that kind of response," you might expect that kind of reponse, but you have your reasons for the information a little backwards. The reason that we make the reccomendations that we do are because they are what works. There might be open source and anti-microsoft sentiment surrounding us, but when it boils down to it, we use the tools we use because they work, not because of some "feelings" we might have about the enviornment.

You are not going to get a job developing C# applications in a banking enviornment, their internal applications programming is done in Java, you will also find that Java is mixed with C native methods to gain speed improvements where necessary.

At a large corporation like Xerox you are not going to find C# what they are using is Java for their GUI works with C for the driver and printer management.

If you are looking to play then go ahead with C# but if you are looking to stand up and play with the big boys, you should look at either Java or C. With C# you will find your options for employment rather limited. You might be able to get into bed with a small home grown company who only knows the marketting blitz and has the $1000 to invest in the Visual Studio .NET.

I work with servers web, email, you know the gig, I also create records management systems, C# never came into my head once as a method to solve any of my programs, it just isn't up to it. I would rather create a C program or a Java program which would take care of my problem, and then be reusable by both other people, and myself no matter where I am.

If you want our advice and recomendations then you might want to put some weight on our posts. I wrote a bit to try and give you some solid advice and you take that as being a part of my anti-mircosoft sentiment. I am a professional, and I spend my time answering questions for those who might want to become one themselves.

You talk about Intranets, and you will realize that any organization worth its salt isn't running an MS network, they might have their satalite print servers on a microsoft box, but the core of the intranet is run on Solaris, or some other variation of the Unix like operating system. If you talk about the Internet capital 'I' is is run by Unix, Windows is that ugly cousin who won't stop talking and always ends up falling on his fae.

You speak from what appears limited knowledge and want to take that knowledge and spread it.

Dan
CodeTown.org

WarMage, I didn't mean to cause any offense, I do speak with limited knowledge which is why I asked about this stuff and which is why I am reading all these posts and why I am seriously putting weight on your recommendations.

I am afterall a multimedia design student and hence that places me on the designer side of the development world. I know my criticisms of the Java 'look' was shallow, but to me and many 'everyday user-type' people the 'look' makes up for a large part of whether they will actually use and enjoy using the software.

I'm not wanting a job as a programmer, I am just wanting to further my skillset with a reasonable level of knowledge in this area. I started off designing things and studying image manipulation techniques and software, and then it sorta became websites, and then I wasn't satisfied with just designing them and leaving the execution up to other people so I learnt HTML, XHTML, CSS, and I still consider myself as 'learning' JavaScript although I can now already do anything I want to do. I also use Flash and Actionscript as many designers do. I have a pretty reasonable knowledge of the use and capabilities of PHP and can write some more basic stuff with it (I am learning this and that is my main task for over the summer). Now if you were reading carefully you will see I have no actual serious 'programming' experience whatsoever. But being willing to learn is something I am good at.

I never claimed that all of you were anti-microsoft or unprofessional about your comments, I merely suggested three reasons why I had expected Java to come out highly and only one of which (the last in fact) was to do with anti-microsoft sentiments. But I think that was reasonably justified in putting this forward as a reason:

quote:

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Yeah sure learn C#, sell you soul to the darkest pits of satans sphincter (Micro$oft to the naive )
Only to be rogered painfully when the technology dies on its arse quietly like so many Microsoft 'innovations'.

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Whilst that isn't your (WarMage) quote I never said that all of you had anti-microsoft feeling, and even now I still believe that anti-microsoft feelings do account for and drive a lot of open-source developments and encourages *some* programmers to follow this route religiously.

I will look at Java, but from this thread my interest is more towards C++ now anyway.

Thanks guys, sorry to any of you that have taken any offense from my admitedly naive and uninformed comments.



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If I understood your post correctly, you want to learn a new language for fun without any big plans to use it for work related things later on. If that is the case then it doesn't really matter that much what language you chose, the important thing is that you enjoy working with it.

Another thing is that once you've learned one of the languages (Java, C++, etc) jumping onto another language won't be that difficult, much of the syntax is similar and the thought process that goes into writing code remains the same. The language that I think is most different among those mentioned here is C, since that is a function and not object oriented language, so I would avoid that one.



_________________________
"There are 10 kinds of people; those who know binary, those who don't and those who start counting at zero"
- the Golden Ratio -

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

smonkey:

If you have an OS-X box, install x-code or the older developer tools package and check out how you can build native Cocoa applications with Java. That's right.... the same look and feel as all other OS-x programs using Java.

I did my internship in a .Net shop, and ran the other way as quickly as possible. I just can't justify spending a lot of time leaning a language that will only let me program for one platform. I could have gotten to like the drag and drop IDE of VS.Net though. But I also got a little nervous about becoming dependant on it.

/* Sure, go ahead and code in your fancy IDE. Just remember: it's all fun and games until someone puts an $i out */