Topic awaiting preservation: Menu made by JavaScript (Page 1 of 1)

I am not sure if I can post this thread here or not.
Here is a scenario.

I am in multimadia class, which I can learn about Macromedia Flash.
My tutor taught me how to make form using Flash.
It can be done by HTML as well. Of course he taught us how to do it using HTML in another class.

I asked:

quote:

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Is there any particular reason to use Flash to make form?

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What I meant was that it is not good idea to make form using Flash coz some people won't see it.

He answered:

quote:

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Only when people want to get good looking pretty form.

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At the moment I didnot reply this comment. But after a while, I thought it is anyway not good idea coz we can use image eidtor to make look pretty background of form, cannot we? In my opinion, Flash let us make nice looking form very quickly, but still better to combine HTML and Gif image to do so.

What would you think of this???

On more thing, a friend of mine told me, if I use JavaScript to make Menu stuff, search engine will have a difficulty to find my web site. Is that true???

Hmm.......Any comment?



Hiroki Kozai

JK kind of answered this in another thread recently.

Flash forms are the only kind of forms that currently offer precise per-pixel control over the layout of your form elements. HTML forms are interpreted differently by each browser and it just impossible to make a form that meets any exact pixel measurements.

That being said, 9.9 times out of 10 you shouldn't need to be that accurate with your forms and yes, it's better to use HTML for forms unless your website is a flash site.

As for how the forms look... well, you can dress up certain form elements with CSS and the like but flash can provide a greater visual control over elements that are usually styled by the OS like drop down boxes and selection lists etc...


As for JavaScript generated menus not being indexed properly; it all depends on how their coded. A web crawler that indexes your website for a search engine will only see the code on the pages, not the final output so if the JavaScript code is dynamically generating the menu text and the links (be it through document.write, document.innerHTML or DOM node generation) then the search engine crawler/bot won't see them and hence won't be able to navigate your website. Many DHTML menu systems do this and it's a bad practice IMHO.

I'm not really sure if search engine crawlers/bots understand or even bother to execute JavaScript but I've always thought it safe to make sure you can browse a website without JavaScript at all.

Hi, mate.
Many thanks for your reply.
Well, the point of Serch enjine is that if web site is easy to be found or not, right?
In my understanding, Meta tag helps serch engine to find, doesnot it????
So I thought it does not matter how menu be coded.
Do you remember I posted about Meta tag and Serch engine question before?
I understood this way:

1.Meta tag is not compulsory to be found by Serch engine.
It only helps serch engine to be found.

2.Serch engine looks for web site throught html file.
I mean not how it look like on the monitor as you said.

In my conclusion, it is good to code JavaScript menu well coz it is a part of html file. Serch engine will appreciate that effort.

Am I right???

And I want to talk about Flash menu too.
A lot of other student just use Flash to make menu. Coz it is pretty easy to make pretty menu and easy to make it interactive such as mouse over button.
I agree with you that it is Ok to use Flash menu as long as it is flash web site.
But I cannot agree with my friends making anything using Flash. Coz some people cannot see the most important part of the site, can they?

Hey, mate. Do you actually make two version of web site when you use flash?
I mean no Flash pug version(probably gif img instead of Flash movie) and Flash version.

All right. Many thanks, mate.
Have a good night.

Ps. A friend of mine invited me for dinner. She is probably cooking nice chinese meal.
Yummmy.


Hiroki Kozai

Heh, I could probably go a good Chinese meal right about now.

Anyways, Meta tags don't automatically mean your website can be found by a search engine. I'll try and explain this as best I can but I'm probably not the most learned person to be talking to about all of this.

Ok then, how is a software program that indexes websites supposed to find your website if no one links to it?

Unless you go to the search engine site and specifically tell the search engine to index your website then it will never find it. Even then, your only usually specify 1 URL, how does it find the other pages in your website?

Well, that's a bit of a simplification but for the most part, search engines have robots that are like web browser that randomly follow links in HTML pages and index the data they find.

Hang on, first a little bit about Meta tags...

Some search engines use the data from your META tags to list the content you say you have on your website whilst others, like google bot, index the content of the HTML page and ignore the Meta tags all together. Although the content of the Meta Tags can still end up in the description summary of the google search results, so it's good practice to use them anyways.

The problem with certain types of JavaScript menus (I'm talk about fully dynamic fly out menu systems like the one at DHTML Central that use JS to generate the <a> link elements) is that if the search engine bot can't read the JavaScript it won't be able to navigate your page as there will be no links per say for it to follow. So it'll get to the fist page of your site and hit a dead end.

As for flash, the same problem exists. The best way around this it to include a series of <a> links and comment them out, I've read that google will still follow those but don't quote me on it. Same goes for any textual content you want google to index, type it into the page with the flash and simply comment it out and effectively, google will still index that. For other search engines/bots using Meta tag should work just fine.

As for providing a non-flash version. Well, there are lots of factors to consider here. How much of your target audience has flash? How many of those without flash will be willing to download to access your content? Does your website need to be flash?

I think in your case, the latter question applies the most. Flash is all good and well, but if you?re using it because it's "easier" to provide mouse over effects then you?re using it for the wrong reasons. Flash is for multimedia content, a menu is not enough to warrant being called multimedia, now matter how spiffy you make it.

Also be warned that several search engines have penalising systems for sites that try and spam keywords and the like. If google finds the word "JavaScript" 10 times in a row, say you've put this in your keywords Mata tag, it'll drop you several ranks on the search listing for trying to spam keywords. It does the same for sites that redirect multiple domains to the same page without using a proper 303 redirect protocol and various other things people do in order to boost unwarranted traffic. Google also favours website that updates their content regularly (which is why the FAQ wikki ranks so well) and a whole handful of other things.

Search engine ranking, indexing and placement are chapters of web design all to themselves really.

First of all, thank you very much for your explanation.
I am glad to hear from you, mate.

quote:

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if the search engine bot can't read the JavaScript it won't be able to navigate your page as there will be no links per say for it to follow. So it'll get to the fist page of your site and hit a dead end.

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Could you explain a bit more about this quote, please?
I am confused. Sounds fine to me.
Because if serch engine get to the first page, it means anyway it takes user to the web site, which they are looking for. Am I wrong? Or got it wrong way????


Hiroki Kozai

ok, think about it this way..

Google don't understand Javascript, period. Anything that's in your script and *not* on your page (in HTML), Goggle will simply pretend that it doesn't exist. It's like talking to women- it's not what you said, it what they think you said.

If the links are in your script (in Javascript) and not in your page (in HTML), then Google will arrive at your site thru links from other people- most probably to your front page. And then, where does it go? Nowhere, if you don't have any links for it to follow.

Now (let's hope that stuck), here what I don't get:

Why not simply make your menu in DHTML with DIVs? Google will not notice that they are hidden (because they are in the HTML, are we learning yet?) and crawl your site properly anyway..

...now, with the forms, the only problem (that I see) with doing it in flash is that many people (without the plug-in or with older browsers) will not be able to see it. I don't think the search engine indexing is of particular important inside your form...

I highly doubt that there's someone on Google right this moment going, "Now if only I could find a site with a 'Enter Name:' field... I want to enter my name somewhere, damnit!!"


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[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 07-03-2003).]