Topic awaiting preservation: Losing my religion... (Page 1 of 3)

I was wondering what's the difference between Christian and Roman Catholic(religion)?...so?

I'm a catholic...I do believe in g** but in different ways. I never go to church and I don't want to.

Roman Catholics are a branch from the Catholic tree which itself is a branch from the Christian tree.

But i suppose you get better answers in the Philosofy and other Sillyness section.
Bugs could probably anser a lot of questions.
He is almost the 'father/priest/reverend'* from the asylum i think


*cross out your choice

"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

Move this to the Philo forum please.

Moving....

:::krets.net:::

ok, any catholic people online - no offense, but this is how i see it:

catholicism is like christianity with a whole heap of (unnecessary) bells and whistles on it.

there are a number of ways in which this is the case:

sacraments
your average christian denomination has maybe 3 sacraments - things like baptism, lord's supper, and maybe another (profession of faith, marriage, etc).

catholics have over a dozen - which lends itself more towards a list of rites and rituals. this can also be seen in the architecture of the church: whilst many non-catho churches have all the stained glass and stuff, on the inside, it is relatively simple (often) - and many just look like a standard hall. Catho churches have all sorts of interesting things in their churches, candles, paintings, crucifixes, etc etc.

salvation
it seems that catholics have lost the simplicity of salvation.
whilst christian salvation, when analysed and fully explained, can be quite complex, the essential elements are very basic:

humankind has sinned, and thus cannot spend eternity with God - who requires perfection.
our punishment, therefore, is hell.
christ took our punishment - by dying, and going to hell, even though he had never sinned, and was in fact God himself.
by coming to life, christ shows that he has power over death - even our eternal death.
by believing in all this, we then take on this gift of salvation.

(i am trying to cover the basics - forgive me if my terminology is off, or if i miss essential points)

put most simply: if we confess with our mouth that jesus is lord, and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved.

now, whilst i believe that catholics would concur with these core truths, they also seem to add to them, with elements that do not seem biblical:

mary + the saints
why would we pray to them, when christ is our intecessor, and moreover, we also have the holy spirit praying for us?

the pope
where this concept of infallibility came from, i have no idea. no one is perfect, but christ himself. what's more, the bible is a complete document - to which nothing should be subtracted or added (resulting in serious consequence). as such, what on earth are the relevance of his 'perfect' statements? again, this entire concept baffles me.

forgiveness - christianity believe that the only human element of salvation is their faith (which, however, was still given from God). if you believe, all your sins - past, present, future - are forgiven, and nothing can separate you from Christ's love. Catholics have added to this - to be forgiven for a sin, penance is required, and if someone is dying, they have their 'last rites' - they are being forgiven for their sins, so that they have a 'clean slate' and can be heaven bound. This seems to assume that christ's death was not enough - and alarmingly, no catholic can ever be sure of their salvation!

And don't forget the girls in plaid skirts...

:::krets.net:::

plaid skirts?

Krets, it may be a bit disheartening for you to hear this... but I am 99% positive that that was NOT a church you went to.

                                   

Catholic School Girls Rule

I've never been to one.

quote:

---

ok, any catholic people online - no offense, but this is how i see it:

catholicism is like christianity with a whole heap of (unnecessary) bells and whistles on it.

there are a number of ways in which this is the case:

sacraments
your average christian denomination has maybe 3 sacraments - things like baptism, lord's supper, and maybe another (profession of faith, marriage, etc).

catholics have over a dozen - which lends itself more towards a list of rites and rituals. this can also be seen in the architecture of the church: whilst many non-catho churches have all the stained glass and stuff, on the inside, it is relatively simple (often) - and many just look like a standard hall. Catho churches have all sorts of interesting things in their churches, candles, paintings, crucifixes, etc etc.

salvation
it seems that catholics have lost the simplicity of salvation.
whilst christian salvation, when analysed and fully explained, can be quite complex, the essential elements are very basic:

humankind has sinned, and thus cannot spend eternity with God - who requires perfection.
our punishment, therefore, is hell.
christ took our punishment - by dying, and going to hell, even though he had never sinned, and was in fact God himself.
by coming to life, christ shows that he has power over death - even our eternal death.
by believing in all this, we then take on this gift of salvation.

(i am trying to cover the basics - forgive me if my terminology is off, or if i miss essential points)

put most simply: if we confess with our mouth that jesus is lord, and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead, we will be saved.

now, whilst i believe that catholics would concur with these core truths, they also seem to add to them, with elements that do not seem biblical:

mary + the saints
why would we pray to them, when christ is our intecessor, and moreover, we also have the holy spirit praying for us?

the pope
where this concept of infallibility came from, i have no idea. no one is perfect, but christ himself. what's more, the bible is a complete document - to which nothing should be subtracted or added (resulting in serious consequence). as such, what on earth are the relevance of his 'perfect' statements? again, this entire concept baffles me.

forgiveness - christianity believe that the only human element of salvation is their faith (which, however, was still given from God). if you believe, all your sins - past, present, future - are forgiven, and nothing can separate you from Christ's love. Catholics have added to this - to be forgiven for a sin, penance is required, and if someone is dying, they have their 'last rites' - they are being forgiven for their sins, so that they have a 'clean slate' and can be heaven bound. This seems to assume that christ's death was not enough - and alarmingly, no catholic can ever be sure of their salvation!

---

we have everything that you've stated above...and I still don't understand what's the difference between 'em.

I probably shouldn't mention this, as it is potentially embarrassing, but I suppose I can't really hurt my image here any more than I already have...

I briefly dated a nice Catholic girl when I was at university. Back then cheesy people (like myself and this girl) still made each other mixed tapes, and we weren't ones to break with tradition. Our tastes in music were a bit different, and despite the fact that there was practicaly a canon of sappy love songs for mixed tapes back then, our tapes only contained one song in common. That song was Billy Joel's "Only the Good Die Young." I remember getting a big grin on my face when I saw that on her tape (you'll know why if you know the song), and I still chuckle to think about it.

You know, finding new ways to shame myself here has become something of a personal challenge...

Yannah: Apologies if I haven't contributed much to the discussion at hand. It is a good question, and reitsma gave a very good answer. Not sure if seconding someone else's answer really counts as a contribution, but that's life, I guess.

Yannah - in that list you will find, if you read more carefully, that Reitsma is pointing out the differences line by line.

Most of the things he lists there are exclusive to catholicism, and have little or nothing to do with christianity.




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-04-2003).]

reitsma, nice job overall, you hit just about everything. the only other largely differing concept in catholicism is purgatory, the idea that there's this place that's not heaven and not hell but sort of a waiting place till you make the cut to get into heaven. the catholic argument i've heard for this is pulling a single verse very out of context to back it up, i believe its also covered in the catholic bible (which has a handful of books added).

yannah, what reitsma said covers a lot and if you read carefully he does state the major differences. what it all comes down to is this: the bible (and protestant christanity) state that we are saved by grace, that a decision to accept christ as a personal savior is the only thing we have to "do" to get to heaven. things like good works, a change in our attitudes and habits, etc., are by-products of that decision. catholics believe that you are saved by grace, but also by works, that you have to do certain things (be confirmed, go to confession, etc.) to be saved. its all about religion, the rules man has created, rather than the things God has said. it seems to sort of miss the forest for the trees so to speak, God has laid things out very simply in scriptute and catholocism adds a bunch of extra rules and regulations in. as a whole i've found many catholics seem to view their faith as a duty rather than a part of their lives, they go to church on sundays because they're supposed to and say their grace and go to confession once a year and they're good. accepting christ should be a life-changing event, but many catholics get lost in the religion and the formality of being catholic and are more worried about being catholic then getting close to God.

that being said, there are certainly catholics who "get it" and have a real relationship with God and know Christ as their savior. the format of the catholic church just seems to make that a challenge.

i've also never quite understood the whole non-practicing catholic thing, people seem to label themselves in some odd inactive way because of what their parents believed. i mean, i guess i'm a non-practicing muslim? also a non-practicing buddist i suppose. whatever you believe, you need to believe it because you CHOOSE to believe it and not because someone told you to. if you consider yourself catholic but don't go to church, don't want to, and bellieve in God in different ways than they do...umm, think there might be something better for you to be than catholic?

and just fyi, i grew up catholic, spent 23-odd years going to catholic church, got baptized, confirmed, the whole nine yards so i'm speaking from firsthand experience. after i graduated from college i went to some non-denominational bible studies, found out what the bible really says, and accepted christ into my life in a real and powerful way. since then i've seen God do some amazing things in my life and i'm a totally different person. i can't even compare that being "religious" and doing things because you have to do them while seeing God do nothing in your life. if i had to do that and saw no result from it then i wouldn't really see the point...

chris

If i recall correct the catholic monks where the first persons who had a good way to brew beer.
Also catholicm i s know for it's sponge effect. It takes over local traditions and holidays puts a little caholic sauce ocer it and integrate them into the catholicism. And due to the hierarchical organization it was a mighty powerblock for ages. And still when the pope talks to world leaders (directly or indirect) it's in the news.
I think it is the catholics who made christianity acceptable in the world but then people start thinking for themselves and saw the flaws off the religion and start churches by them selves.
Catholics especially the Romans enjoy god and christ and celebrate his existence where other christan branches are a bit sober and believe in god the catholics celebrate more. It are the social aspects who diver from the other christan churches. Furthermore the catholics have a very long political history.

Conclusion: Catholicism is christianity with added politics, strong social structures and a good adaptibility.
it also is not pure, not very strict (anymore) and hypocritical at times.
I also grew up as a good catholic boy but i don't join the church anymore.


"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

Hmmm...beer. Depends, on what type of beer - Pils was Pilsner Urquell - some 600+ years old...I'm not sure about lager beer...and weizen (wheat) beer is Weihenstephan - almost 1000 years, now...and still going...

Don't know what that has to do with Catholic Monks, though...

Sorry about butting in...I love beer.

Let me clarify on the beer issue -

"lager" as we know it was first brewed in the 1400's (in germany of course).

Beer has existed for as long as human civilization itself has, and infact it is argued that growing barley to brew beer was a strong contributing factor in forming non-nomadic settlements.

The first written documents pertaining to the brewing of beer date back to 6000 bc, making the Sumerians and the Egyptians the 1st to have 'good ways' to make beer.

Trappist monks have, however, perfected the proccess and were among the most prominent brewers/sellers of beer from around the 1200's through about the 1600s or so.

=)



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-04-2003).]

Many of the "oddities" of Catholicism arose from pagan influence as Christians worked to convert the numerous sects across Europe.

For example, many pagan deities were female and those believers had a hard time accepting a male god. It was much easier for them to identify with Mary, the mother of Christ. That's why she now plays such a major role in the Catholic religion.

The pagan influence is also the reason we celebrate the birth of Jesus near the winter solstice.

Not to offend anyone, but I see Catholicism as a highly bastardized form of Christianity that has more to do with following religious rituals that separate its believers from God than actually communing spiritually with Him.

Ah, Catholicism and beer--the perfect combination. OK, well, maybe minus the Catholicism.

Hey protestants/christians has alot of stupid rules too....(no offens here just mine oppinion)

liike mormons they prohibit to drink coffe and others prohibit to dance and so on bla bla bla....catcholic do have alot of rules and all those bla bla...but they dont force you to do it...they teach you but they never force you

Wes - a point which I have stressed many times.

Christianity in general is really a conglomerate of various pagan rituals. Obviously different sects will incorporate them to varying degrees.

(and suho - I haven't met many catholics personally who weren't also alcoholics )



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-04-2003).]

good points wes, that's where we derive a lot of traditions surrounding easter and other holidays as well.

and, um, ruski, not quite sure where you're getting your info but you're a bit off. there are some southern baptists that are against the whole dancing thing but that's a rather select group, and i have no idea where you got the coffee thing. i'm a starbucks regular

and thanks for the beer history guys, good stuff

chris

Fig, Ruski was referring to Mormons being against consuming caffeine. Strict Hindus are none to happy about it either

I've had lots of friendly debates with Catholic friends and I learned a whole lot in the process. If I had to narrow it all down to a nutshell, I would say that I consider authority to come from scripture alone or Sola Scriptura whereas Roman Catholics listen to scripture *and* the Magisterium.

gotcha bugs, thanks. i knew there was some good reason i wouldn't make it as a mormon

i'd say you're pretty dead on with that observation, tho from my experience its much more only listening to the papal authority as opposed to scripture. i knew very few catholics who really investigated their faith individually, most just took things at face value on sunday mornings and never explored it any further than that. the flip side of that is that its not encouraged, the church has the "correct" interpretation of scripture and if you don't agree with that, well, you're out of luck.

chris

Yup about dancing! I go to christian school and many people/fanatics think its bad to dance with a gilr since they think its like commiting sexual act or whatever... I am kinda getting real tired of religeon stuff...trying to figure out which one to fallow so I came uo with this conclusion:

quote:

---

Though there are many paths
At the foot of the mountain
All those who reach the top
See the same moon.

---

just because the small subculture of christians that you happen to be exposed to think that dancing is evil doesn't mean that's what the majority believes. you used the word "fanatics" yourself, they certainly don't represent the mainstream.

and if you're getting tired of "religion" then you're starting to get it christianity isn't about religion, its about the relationship. religion is man's rules and regulations that he's put together in his best attempt to connect with God, which results in this very inactive God that people seem to complacently believe in. the thing is, christianity is actually about an active God who takes a role in your life when you seek Him out. as i said earlier, i personally don't see the point in following a God who doesn't ever do anything in my life, that's why i'm a lot happier now.

chris

I really dont know who are you christian or something else and how do you fallow or accept the religeons...please tell me I would like to know

I understand what Reitsma had said.
There are no much difference between the two religion...Sure, we have that colored glass on churches walls...everything that he stated.

Ruski: I suggest you do research into a couple (or more) religions, and decide from there which you want to believe in. if you don't find one you like, then I wouldn't force yourself into one. Ya know? trying to fit the square peg in the circle hole. Also, its always good to have a personal talk with people, like some of your friends that are members of different religions ect.

Whoever asked what the difference between Catholics and Christians was;

I know Catholics focus quite a bit on the fact that mary was a virgin, when she had her child. Also, I know Catholicism is steeped in tradition that has been performed for hundreds of years (not nessicarily always PART of the Catholic Faith, catholic faith does have a "sponge effect"). Christianity focuses more on the teachings of Jesus, and how to enter heaven, while Catholicism, focuses on those, and everything else. And just somthing I've noticed, Catholic's can tend to loose the true meaning of what the bible says. the bible states that <i>ALL</i> men have sinned and fallen short of the glory of god, and the Catholic faith directly defies that, by stating that the pope is infalliable. Anyways, excuse the rant.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

Yes I have done a research on alot of religeons...Atheism, Muslim, Buddish, Hindu and few more.....I dont think so I will need any of them....I will stay catholic as long as I live with my mom....when my time comes I think I will be open to all of them, I dont want to be in a certain group and fallow their lists of dos and donts...thats its for now

ruski, you've asked kind of a big question, so i'll try to be both honest and open-minded here...

being catholic, you're probably very caught up in the "rules and regulations" aspect of things, which is really not what its all about. you do this because the church says so and that's how it is. you mentioned in your other thread that you were asking questions and your teachers saw that as a negative thing, and i totally disagree. there's nothing wrong with doubting or having questions, it simply shows you're trying to grow in your faith and not taking things at face value. asking questions is how we learn, cutting off those questions and saying that asking them is bad is about the worst possible thing you can do IMO, especially for a younger person. so you shouldn't feel the least bad about asking, you might just find some better people to ask.

you also mentioned that you're open-minded and have researched other faiths, etc., and i think that's awesome, there's no reason at all not to have knowledge of what's out there. from a christian perspective, is something like buddhism bad? not necessarily in itself, but can you be a christian and a buddist? well, if you're following another faith are you following God entirely? my answer would be no. as far as the zodiac being "bad", why do you think it would be? possibly because it was derived from a system of spiritual worship that wasn't about God, but worshipped other gods and spirits? if you believe in God in the sense that He's the one true God (which your beliefs would seem to indicate), then your testing should involve asking a question something like "is this something that involves following or worshipping or believing in another god?"

as for "how" to follow God in a true christian sense that's a good question. and since you asked about me, i grew up catholic for 23 or so years and am now a non-denominational christian. the biggest thing i've learned is that it is NOT about religion, or rules, or anything of the sort. nowhere in the bible does it say you have to follow God and do this and this and this and then you'll get to heaven. scripture clearly says that its by grace alone we're saved; in other words, we can't be saved by our own actions (which in my book includes certain sacraments or ceremonies or praying with a certain person or whatever).

the big thing the catholic church seems to miss, aside from the "rules" aspect, is that the power of God just isn't often present and the personal aspect of God is missed on. its too formal and structured and rigid, during mass you end up just saying words and repeating them rather than praying. i don't know where you're at personally or what specifically you believe, but i can give you two things to do/think on that may help. the first is to really evaluate where you're at and decide if you've accepted and believe in Christ as your savior. i don't care if you've been confirmed or baptized or whatever, but have you made a personal decision to yourself, do you realize that you aren't perfect, do sin and need to change, and need God's help to do that? because its in that personal acceptance that the power comes in, and if you're not there try just praying about it and asking for that. the second thing is just to ask God to work in your life and show you He's real. it may not happen instantly, or overnight, but if you're seeking that out and really wanting to see it i promise you will.

hope that helps, feel free to drop me an e-mail if you've got other questions or whatever.

chris

I would just like to add that "atheism" is by definition *not* a religion.

It is precisely the absence of religion.

atheist people don't believe in god.(yes you're right it's not a religion)

Just because they don't believe in God, doesn't mean that they couldn't have a Religion...there are 'religions' without God, after all...

But true, a 'pure' Athiest has no religion...though I really doubt that there are any people that don't believe in something...whether it is 'There ain't nothing after Death, so live your life now' to 'Aliens were responsible for Human life'...

Atheists in the thru meaning off the word believe in nothing.
I am not saying the don't believe, that would be wrong they actually believe in nothing.
I would say atheism is a relgion, only they call god 'nothing' and nothing will not do anything, not for you not for the world and not for it's self.


2c

"Freedom of speech is by no means freedom to insult others" from the Razorart goodbye letter.

You are missing the point DL made, Atheism is the absence of religion. They dont gather at mass, they dont have any rituals, there is nothing resembling a religion about it.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

okay, where supposed to talk about my question here about catholics and christians here.

Yannah, hasn't your question been answered? Didn't you have to take some classes when you were confirmed? I'm wondering whether you have a good understanding of your own church's teachings.

Rinswind - nope, you've got it completely wrong.

Break it down - 'theism' - belief in a god or gods.

a - theism - the lack thereof.

In the same manner in which 'asexual' reproduction is reproduction not requiring sexual activity.

It's THAT simple. There is no athiest manifesto, no creed.

Ateists don't believe in "nothing" as though nothing were a god.

Athiesm, by definition, means non-belief in dieties.

*Period*

Nothing more.


{{edit - Yannah, on top of what bugimus said (about your question already being answered), you need to understand that this is a discussion forum. On topic often leads to many others. Get used to it =)

}}



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 03-07-2003).]

I don't go to church. Another one is I hate going to church.

Yannah! Why do you ask questions if you don't care about getting the answers??????

If you don't even know what you believe then why do you ask about the difference between Roman Catholicism and other Christian traditions?

I'm just curious about my own religion and christian's differences that's all.