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Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 05-05-2004 08:01

Check out the gallery depicting the wonderful deeds of some of those heroic individuals that are striving to bring democracy and the values of the west to Iraq. It will make you o proud...

http://www.newyorker.com/online/covers/?040510onco_covers_gallery

quote:
Early this year, the senior U.S. Army commander in Iraq authorized a major investigation into the American Army's prison system there. The fifty-three-page report that resulted, which was written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and was not meant for public release, was devastating. Taguba found numerous instances of "sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses" of Iraqis by American soldiers at the Abu Ghraib prison, located twenty miles west of Baghdad. This systematic and illegal abuse, Taguba reported, was perpetrated by members of the 320th Military Police Battalion, and also by members of the American intelligence community. There was considerable evidence to support the allegations, Taguba added, including "detailed witness statements and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence"; the photographs, which were taken by American soldiers while the abuse was going on, were not included in the report, Taguba said, because of their "extremely sensitive nature." Here are ten of those photographs (see the related link to the right); we have digitally obscured some details



QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgement are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-05-2004 08:19)

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-05-2004 09:08

Your point?

I kind of get the feeling, that you are sarcastically mentioning this...but I do not know why.

I would say, that that which has happened, is probably the end of the "helping", and the beginning of...something else, especially since this has made the news now everywhere (including Iraq).

What little trust America had there, is through these incidents damaged beyond all repair, I think.

As for the soldiers involved in this, I really do not know what they were thinking. I personally, as a Vet, find it appalling. However, War does tend to affect one...somewhat. Maybe the abuse is representitive of the fustration and anger of the soldiers there. If so, then things there are much, much worse then anyone has suggested so far.

I believe it is time to get the soldiers out of Iraq.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Suho1004
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: Seoul, Korea
Insane since: Apr 2002

posted posted 05-05-2004 11:10

Wherever you have foreign troops occupying a nation, and especially when the nationals are hostile toward the occupying forces, you will have brutality. This is not intended as a justification, of course--it sucks, indeed. I just don't understand why anyone would be surprised that this is happening. Perhaps I am being too cynical...

[Edit: Oh, yeah, I've been meaning to say this for some time now: it's "damned," not "dammed."]

___________________________
Suho: www.liminality.org | Cell 270 | Sig Rotator | Keeper of the Juicy Bits

(Edited by Suho1004 on 05-05-2004 11:12)

JKMabry
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: raht cheah
Insane since: Aug 2000

posted posted 05-05-2004 16:00

Whatever the point, and no matter the expectation of it happening, it's disgraceful. I hope there are charges brought against the 'soldiers' involved. Inaddition to the criminal activity shown in the photos (I hope that's considered criminal), I hope that they can somehow throw some kind of charge in that would be along the lines of aiding and abetting the enemy for all the damage this will do for PR with the Arab world.

This is the sort of thing that the word "dishonorable" was made for.

poi
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: France
Insane since: Jun 2002

posted posted 05-05-2004 16:49

At the ocasion of the publication ot these 'sweet attentions' of the US/UK soldiers toward the IRAQI prisonners, the tape taken by a night of december 2003 from a US helicopter killing 4 people have been broadcasted ... and a general commenting the tape pointed the fact that one of the people was 'just' injured after the first shots, and according to the convention of Geneves, killing him was a murder but the pilot and his officer probably ignored that.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-05-2004 17:29

I agree with WS esp.:

quote:
As for the soldiers involved in this, I really do not know what they were thinking.



Even just on the personal level you'd wonder what possessed them to be photographed mistreating prisoners. I'm afraid if we hadn't already seriously blotted our copybook by now then its ruined after these pictures.

Interestingly its claimed that the UK pictures might be faked and I suppose we shouldn't be suprised if various groups are manipulating opinion.

Does anyone now think that the invasion of Iraq has:

1. Made us more popular in the Arabic world?

2. Made Iraq more stable?

3. Helped make the region a better place?

___________________
Emps

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NoJive
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: The Land of one Headlight on.
Insane since: May 2001

posted posted 05-05-2004 17:36

I saw this interview the other day...seems that the majority of us could quite easily find ourselves doing what those soldiers did....

Click "A mind to Torture"

http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/


[Edit]True or not... but one of the bits I heard about why photographs were taken...was that the soldier or soldiers involved were'nt too pleased with what they were ordered to do so they took the photo's to show 'other' prisoners what they were in for if they didn't co-operate...thus reducing the possibility they (the soldiers) would have to continue with the humiliation. Like I said true or not. [/Edit]

(Edited by NoJive on 05-05-2004 17:51)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 05-05-2004 17:42

A couple things are painfully obvious here

1) this treatment is unexcusable. period.

2) such things happen in war time, and have always happened in war time, and will always happen in war time.

To once again paint this as a soley 'american' problem, or an american failure, is absurd and irresponsible.

3) to present a known topic with such sarcasm and childish flair, with actual point about the subject is plain silly.

If you want to talk about an issue, then talk about it.

Xpirex
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Dammed if I know...
Insane since: Mar 2003

posted posted 05-05-2004 19:29

Yeh, whatever.. don't let a twist develop in those pants. I feel such irony because all I ever hear is how good and right the occupation was... and how civilised the wonderful altruistic occupiers are.. and what heroes.. and how the people in Iraq are so happy and grateful and free.. and I never believed it.. Well now we see that is not all true is it? but maybe you are distracted by and want to point to my sarcasm and explain it away with the theory that all men will behave such ways under those circumstances. But don't ya just feel a little dissapointment and a tad of shame? We probably don't even know the half of what goes on out there.

On a list of 'painfully obvious' things.. my insignificant sneer of disgust hardly rates a mention in this issue. What's to discuss/prove/explain exactly? Surely the pictures and story and details that are emurging by the minute speak for themselves. As I mentioned somewhere before.. I find it all very sad actually. I thought it deserved a mention. I'm not gloating.

QUOTATION: I have noted that persons with bad judgment are most insistent that we do what they think best. (Lionel Abel )



(Edited by Xpirex on 05-05-2004 19:34)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 05-05-2004 21:19

If those kinds of things are all you ever hear, you obviously haven't been paying much attention.

I would have to say there are more detractors of this war here at the asylum than there are supporters. Both americans and non. The media is filled with anti-war sentiments and anti-bush sentiments and anti-amercian sentiments quite often.

Perhaps your pessimism makes you block out the fact that people tend to actually agree with your outlook on issues quite a bit, but simply disagree with your gross generalizational conclusions.

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-05-2004 22:32

Don't judge an entire operation (or as it seems in your sarcatic case Xpirex, an entire country) based on a few bad apples. That, my good American hater friend, is ignorant.

This type of thing happens on a daily basis across the world and many of these incidents are not in a stressful environment like a warzone. It is also amusing how easily we forget the atrocities commited by the other side. Doesn't excuse it, because it is detestable, but shit happens.

Ramasax

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-05-2004 22:42)

Sanzen
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Raleigh, NC
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 05-05-2004 23:04

I've been gone for some time, i'm back now.

The war in Iraq disgusts me, anyone who participates shouldn't be considered a hero. I know everyone's going to hate me for that comment but I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 05-05-2004 23:56

These atrocities have really damaged the United States in the eyes of the world. Personally, I don't know how much more of our presence the world can endure. The Bush Administration halved our credibility in the world after their repeated claims of WMD was proven false. Now, the US has successfully replaced Saddam's Rape Rooms with US Military Rape Rooms. You'd think the US government would be content just blowing up their schools and hospitals. Nope. We had to spread our values by raping them - literally.

Fortunately, Bush addressed the Arab world today. Considering his record in Iraq, this should boost US popularity in the region.

Edit: I was wrong. Videos actually do exist that show US soliders raping Iraqi men and women. That must be the compasion Pres. Bush is always talking about.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

(Edited by Jestah on 05-06-2004 00:08)

(Edited by Jestah on 05-08-2004 16:23)

Sanzen
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: Raleigh, NC
Insane since: Jan 2003

posted posted 05-06-2004 00:26

A Vote for Bush in 2004 is a vote for dictatorship.

WebShaman
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Happy Hunting Grounds...
Insane since: Mar 2001

posted posted 05-06-2004 12:15
quote:
Don't judge an entire operation (or as it seems in your sarcatic case Xpirex, an entire country) based on a few bad apples.



Heh.

That is just...uncanny. Take a look Bush's moral high ground slipping away

Especially this part, at the end -

quote:
"Americans still have a huge regard for the U.S. military," Mr. Mann said, "and they may accept this as just a few bad apples."



Just...erie.

WebShaman | Asylum D & D | D & D Min Page

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 05-07-2004 21:13
quote:
"Be on notice," he warned the committee neared the end of an appearance that lasted more than two hours.

"There are a lot more photographs and videos that exist," he said. "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."



http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040507/D82DT9O80.html

Oh fantastic. If the pictures of US soliders torturing Iraqis didn't boost our popularity through the world, these videos certainly will. It's bad enough we sent a bunch of animals to a foreign country to display our humane side. Who the fuck gave them cameras and video cameras?

The good news is the Red Cross brought this behavior to the Bush Administrations attention a year ago. The bad news is it appears the the Administration shared in Rush Limbaughs beliefs that torturing the Iraqis is a good way to "soften them up".

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Edit: Added link.

(Edited by Jestah on 05-07-2004 21:13)

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-08-2004 19:47

Jestah: But the point is that we didn't send a bunch of animals we sent a pretty oridinary selection of young people. What happened to them could happen to an awful lot of people taken ou of their country and thrown into something like that. The failing goes up the ladder - the people in charge must have expected this (it happens a lot) and should have put procedures in place to make sure that this kind of systematic abuse couldn't have taken place. e.g. how were they able to hide these prisoners from the Red Cross/Crescent? There should have been tracking, etc. in palce to stop this and regular checks from external bodies. In some ways this comes down to the administrations belief that they can go it alone without the support or even input from important international agencies but while you may win the actual war the battle for hearts and minds in the region is essentially lost - I imagine the Al Qaeda recruiting offices have people queing around the corner for people to sign up - all we have done is sow the whirlwind

I suppose if anything good comes from this is that it will possibly lead to the more widespread discussion of war crimes that have been committed in Afghanistan and our the various torture centres around the world which the US military use when they can't extract the information they require on US soil (and that is just the major abuse I'm aware of who knows what else is going on). The latter being espeically important as it is not isolated incidetns but military policy going right to the top.

Anyway I thought this was an interesting article on the pornograph of the images:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/women/story/0,3604,1211261,00.html

And I know I mentioned mercenaries in another thread but they are a real casue for concern in this abuse situations:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040507/D82DNCQG0.html

and they seem to be using Iraq as a testing ground for new weapons (as I possibly mentioned):

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2426405.php

___________________
Emps

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Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-08-2004 19:58

Our popularity throughout the middle-east was not good to begin with. Has it ever been good? The thing that concerns me the most is the double edged sword the rest of the world has when viewing the US. It's ok for everybody else to fuck up, but when the US does it, look out. America is horrible.

Muslim and Arab leaders are outraged at the abuse. Funny how some pictures that look like a frat initiation outrage people, yet they fail to look at what their own countries are and have been doing for centuries. You want to talk about a human rights nightmare...

Funny how 4 American contractors can be drug through the streets of Fallujah, dismembered and strung from a bridge, and then have people dancing in celebration, and that is ok. Funny how our captured soldiers are treated with humiliation and worse on a regular basis. Funny how their actions are excusable and some pictures of humiliation can cause international outrage.

Where is the perspective on things? Damn, you all sound like a bunch of Michael Moore wannabes. You basically have a bunch of fucking kids in war who were obviously mentally incapable of controlling themselves, things like this have been known to happen in any war. I don't think any of us, sitting in front of our computers in our comfy office chairs, or sitting on our couches watching our big screen tvs, looking at pictures and media spun stories can even understand the situation.

And please, do not forget the photos of British soldiers urinating and ramming the butt of their rifles into the groin of prisoners.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-08-2004 20:12)

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-08-2004 20:16)

Jestah
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: Long Island, NY
Insane since: Jun 2000

posted posted 05-08-2004 20:21

Emps - I don't know. I don't think being that cruel is something that just happens. I think you have to be real fucked up to put a saddle on the back of a 70 year old women and ride her like a horse or hook up a car battery to a persons testicles. Placing a plastic bag on a 70 year old man and watching him suffocate isn't something normal people do. I realize I called those soliders animals in my previous post, but they're much worse then animals.

Ramasax - No ones saying that US soliders are alone in these atrocities. Unfortunately, we were supposed to be different. After Bush's evidence of WMD blew up in his face he claimed we needed to invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons. By humanitarian reasons he clearly meant we needed to rape them.

Although we disagree on most political issues, I'm embarassed for you that you're sitting at your computer thinking of reasons why its ok for US soliders and contractors to torture other humans.

If feeling outrage towards a group of people who rape and kill other people makes me a Michael Moore wannabe, I'm proud to be one. Unfortunately, from you post it sounds to me like you're just another Rush Limbaugh dittohead - coming up with lists of reasons why the US soliders aren't terrorists instead of heros.

One of these days I hope you meet a hero and he rapes you in the ass and puts the video online. Then you should be real proud. God Bless America.

Bandwagon American Since 9/11/01

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-08-2004 20:53

heh, first off Jestah, I am not, in any way shape of form, trying to justify these actions. We are different, and you, being an American, should know this. There are people like these in every population. Sounds to me like you are judging your entire country based on a few soldiers, or MPs, whatever the hell they are. That is what bothers me.

We disagree on most political issues? lol, I hadn't noticed. You don't have to be embarrased by me, because I am not, as you say, thinking of reasons why this is ok.

quote:
If feeling outrage towards a group of people who rape and kill other people makes me a Michael Moore wannabe, I'm proud to be one.



Ok then, on the same token, why do you only feel outrage at a group of idiots and not feel outrage at Muslim extremists who are not so selective in the violence and torture and simply want all Americans dead? Where was your outrage when things much worse were going on under Saddam, or the Taliban, or any of those middle-eastern dictators? All I am saying is people need to have a little more perspective on things.

BTW, I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh. As far as you last comments, you hope I get raped in the ass? Very nice, you find it so detestable that some Iraqis are stripped naked and grouped into a pyramid, but you hope I get raped in the ass? Only proves once again that you, just like all the other Liberals out there lack something called rationality.

Once again, just to clarify, I am not trying to justify any of these actions, just asking where the perspective has gone.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-08-2004 21:37
quote:
Ramasax said:

Funny how 4 American contractors can be drug through the streets of Fallujah, dismembered and strung from a bridge, and then have people dancing in celebration, and that is ok.



You might have to point out to me where I (or the majority of people in the West objecting to the War) have said it was acceptable. Two wrongs don't make a right though.

quote:
Ramasax said:

Damn, you all sound like a bunch of Michael Moore wannabes.



Oddly people have been expressing left wing/anti-war views for longer than Michael Moore and they have been doing it significantly better - it possibly proves my point about Moore: That it is clear that the only way to get these kinds of topics onto the agenda is to have a loud mouth running pointing out things (which the right have always had plenty of) but I hope that once he has people's attention that people take the time to read into things. Technically if that was directed at me I take it as an insult.

quote:
Ramasax said:

And please, do not forget the photosof British soldiers urinating and ramming the butt of their rifles into the groin of prisoners.



Odly I think I have already mentioned that and I am in no way implying it is an American problem (hence m use of 'we' above).

quote:
Jestah said:

Emps - I don't know. I don't think being that cruel is something that just happens. I think you have to be real fucked up to put a saddle on the back of a 70 year old women and ride her like a horse or hook up a car battery to a persons testicles. Placing a plastic bag on a 70 year old man and watching him suffocate isn't something normal people do. I realize I called those soliders animals in my previous post, but they're much worse then animals.



I'm afraid war, esp. in a country that you are 'liberating' which doesn't want you there, will tend to make people do terrible things. It isn't want normal people do in the safety of their own homes but it happens a lot when people are forced into terrible decisions. What I'm saying is that it should have been planned for and dealt with - this is a series of isolated incidents but they suggest a failing in th chain of command to plan for it.

I'd recommend you read:

An Intimate History of Killing: Face-to-Face Killing in Twentieth-Century Warfare by Joanna Bourke.

On Killing by Dave Grossman.

No More Heroes: Madness and Psychiatry in War by Richard A. Gabriel.

Four Hours in My Lai: A War Crime and Its Aftermath by Kevin Sim and Michael Bilton.

Humanity: A Moral History of the Twentieth Century by Jonathan Glover.

And look at stuff like:

http://www.rastko.org.yu/kosovo/istorija/ccsavich-propaganda.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/10/21/wviet21.xml

___________________
Emps

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Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-08-2004 22:02

Nobody said it was acceptable emps, but it was pushed aside rather quickly. I just get fed up with the double standards where the US is concerned.

The Muslim/Arab leaders and the world at large demands action be taken? They ask us to police ourselves. They demand apologies. Where were they when their citizens were hanging our fellow countrymen from bridges and dancing with joy? Where were they when Jessica Lynch was raped by their people? Where were they when Daniel Pearl was turtured and eventually had his throat sliced on their television networks? Where were they while thousands of Iraqi women were raped under Saddam? Where were they when over 1 million Iraqi children died of starvation while Saddam was building gold-adorned temples? Where were they when hundreds of Afghans were hung from lampposts by the Taliban as a warning to would be defectors? Where were they when Saddam raped and pillaged one of his neighbors? Where were they when thousands of Kurds were gassed to death? Where were they when the WTC was bombed in 1993? Where were they when the USS Cole was attacked? Where were they when 4 of our domestic airplanes were hijacked resulting in over 3000 US civilian deaths and billions in damage? Where were they when the train bombing in Madrid occurred? I'm sure you get the point. Did we ever hear apologies or promises of investigation or change? NOPE. This is for you Jestah, you want to know the difference between us and them, there it is. We freely admit our mistakes and are willing to apologize and push for change when we know we are wrong. They are not.

My Michael Moore comment was made primarily to Jestah, who is generalizing the entire situation without looking at the big picture and putting things into perspective. He is making it sound like he believes all Americans are evil. The world is doing the same and the double-standard makes me ill.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-08-2004 22:45

Ramazax: Well those acts were condemned by various sources - including moderate Moslems in this country and in Iraq. If you didn't see those reported in the media then that is not really their issue.

I think the key thing is that we went in claiming the moral high ground and the people who commited those acts are terrorists, thieves, psychopaths, etc. and it appears we have suk to their level.

----------------
Just spotted this in the paper which is quite a dsitrubing developemtn if true

quote:
The sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison was not an invention of maverick guards, but part of a system of ill-treatment and degradation used by special forces soldiers that is now being disseminated among ordinary troops and contractors who do not know what they are doing, according to British military sources.

The techniques devised in the system, called R2I - resistance to interrogation - match the crude exploitation and abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib jail in Baghdad.

One former British special forces officer who returned last week from Iraq, said: "It was clear from discussions with US private contractors in Iraq that the prison guards were using R2I techniques, but they didn't know what they were doing."



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1212150,00.html

I'm not sure if WS really wants to comment on that but........

___________________
Emps

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 05-08-2004 22:46

The double standard is utterly contemptable and it is completely expected. Before this war began I said that we will be hated if we act and hated if we do nothing. The fact is that we are hated for who we are. I do not understand why being loved by others is such a preoccupation. Emps and Jestah, since you are in this particular thread, why is that a priority? Shouldn't we concern our actions with whether they are right or wrong and then let the chips fall where they may?

Do either of you believe in the ideals our countries hold dear? If so, why are they not worth putting into action?

The fact is that we will never be liked by the likes of Al Qaeda unless we are willing to submit to their demands. Theirs cause is driven by ideaology. I know you probably still believe that we cause their attacks but you are just wrong about that. I don't know much clearer I can state it than that.

Jestah said:

quote:
Placing a plastic bag on a 70 year old man and watching him suffocate isn't something normal people do.

How are you defining normal? You are making a serious value judgement in this statement.

Emps said:

quote:
...but I hope that once he has people's attention that people take the time to read into things.

Don't hold your breath on that one, Emps. Just as you will always have abuses in war time, you will have the masses willfully ignorant of such unpleasant realities.

quote:
it should have been planned for and dealt with

It can always be planned better but I don't want us to use that as an excuse for never acting. This was already being investigated when it hit the press.

I find it fascinating how predictable our positions are on such topics. Emps, I see you making excuses for this behavior. I hear you saying that it was an external force that made these soldiers abuse these prisoners. I am not surprised by that anymore than I am not surprised that I support coming down extremely hard on them for their actions. We have a very different view of human nature. Even if this was an order from above, do you think people with any sense of morality would carry out torture like this? (I include that word because there was that one case where they made a prisoner believe he would be electrocuted if he fell of that box. That is torture)

No, these people who did this are criminals. This is contrary to what we stand for as a society and contrary to the military code of ethics. They have no excuse for this and they need to be punished. Any superiors who ordered this should also be taken down hard. I doubt they have any idea just how much damage they have done to this effort. The Arab world places tremendous significance on face and honor. This has set us back in trying to win any hearts and minds in this war. It's deplorable.

As a continuation of the multiple apologies begun by our leaders, I would love to see public trials begun and our justice process broadcast throughout the Arab world to show them how our society deals with its own when we contravene our own ideals. We can best show who we are by living by our own ideals. One of our ideals is that we will not sit by *forever* and let bad situations get worse and that we realize that when we act, we will not act perfectly but that we will do the best we can.

Now that we have acted in a big way, we see we are not perfect. That should come as no surprise. This was always described by those of us who favored this war as a long and difficult process that would take at least a decade of effort and probably more. So many good things are happening in Iraq for so many who were oppressed before that I cannot fathom how people are still saying we should not have embarked on this. I never thought this was going to be a cake walk and hearing the left characterize it that way just seems strange. You cannot invade a country and try to establish a fledgling democracy in a part of the world that has *never* known it and not expect a hard time.

I've got so much more to say but that is enough for this post. I'm sorry for the choppiness of my word flow up there.


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 05-08-2004 22:55)

Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 05-08-2004 22:54

There was one cleric in Iraq that condemned the treatment of the dead bodies of the contractors but said not a word about killing them in the first place.

That being said, I don't think it is the case that there are ZERO Muslims that condemn such actions for I know they exist. The problem is that their numbers are so incredibly small compared to the Muslim world as a whole that the majority's silence overwhelms their condemnations.

Emps, do you believe this silence is our fault? Or do you think that values and ideals of the Arab world in conjunction with a particular brand of Islam is the primary difference between our societies?


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 05-08-2004 22:58)

DL-44
Maniac (V) Inmate

From: under the bed
Insane since: Feb 2000

posted posted 05-09-2004 00:51

As a side issue, these double standards are something that exist everywhere in relation to just about everything.

It's simple matter of the more powerful group being held to a higher responsibility.

It's the same reason comedians can make fun of white people all day long, but any derogatory black or hispanic jokes are liable to get you killed, sued, fired, etc...

Is it right? Well...that's a debatable issue.

But there is the simple fact that when a group takes a role of power - willingly or unwillingly - that power brings with it responsibility. It's not contemptable whatsoever. It's normal, in every way.

Haven't you guys ever read Spiderman??

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 01:09
quote:
I think the key thing is that we went in claiming the moral high ground and the people who commited those acts are terrorists, thieves, psychopaths, etc. and it appears we have suk to their level.



WE, as a whole, have not sunk to their level. Do we condemn an entire police force for the actions of one or two individuals? Are all cops immoral when one of them does something awful? No, we understand as a society that they will be dealt with and punished. It may appear that we have sunken to their level to some, particularly those who like to generalize situations, but I state again, we are willing to admit when we are wrong. The ability to percieve between right and wrong and apologize when we are in the latter is the main difference here, and IMO justifies us taking the moral high road.

Did Saddam ever say he was wrong, apologize, or admit responsibility of his actions and atrocities? Did Al-Queda? Did the Taliban? How about Hitler? How about Stalin? This is what separates US from THEM, the ability to percieve right from wrong and the same action to act on righting the wrongs and taking responsibility for our wrongs. The ability to apologize.

As horrible as the US is supposed to be I find it surprising we have so many people seeking a place in our society. What other nations get people crossing miles of ocean in a raft seeking what we have, freedom.

We have the power to bomb the fuck out of them and turn the entire region to glass if we so wished it, but we don't. Why? Because it is wrong. If they were in our position, why do I sense we would all be dead by now? Because in all likelyhood we would be.

To me, the biggest threat to success in Iraq lies right here at home, in the press and in the mouths of certain loudmouth communists from Hollywood and left-wing idealist liberal politicians detached from reality. While this recent scandal sets us back a bit, I believe this to be the real threat to establishing a democratic Arab state.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-09-2004 01:12)

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-09-2004 01:10
quote:
Bugimus said:

Emps, I see you making excuses for this behavior. I hear you saying that it was an external force that made these soldiers abuse these prisoners. I am not surprised by that anymore than I am not surprised that I support coming down extremely hard on them for their actions. We have a very different view of human nature. Even if this was an order from above, do you think people with any sense of morality would carry out torture like this? (I include that word because there was that one case where they made a prisoner believe he would be electrocuted if he fell of that box. That is torture)



But I'm not making excuses for it I'm just saying I can understand it can happen and why it happens and that war is terrible and brutalises young people into doing things they wouldn't do at home.

There is a lot of research into killing in war and the suprising thing is that the majority of people don't actually do much/any of it and the vast majority of the killing is done by a limited number of people whos brains are wired for it (they split fairly evenly into 'heroes' and psychopaths). If you bear that in mind and read the Mai Lai book you can see this psychopathic 1% of people at work killing indescriminantly. Are the other people heroes? The vast majority of them aren't they carry the ammo, they finsih off wounded civilians, one guy spends a very long time stabbing a cow, etc. There are only a couple of people who actually stood up and spoke up and they are the genuine heroes the others were just caught up in maelstrom of madness, blood and violence. As with these torture cases I don't find any of this acceptable and it demeans us all collectively and I think they should throw the book at them as they should have know better than to do this.

What I'm saying is that killing people is actually against our mental wiring and that to get people to go to war means you have to train them to break through this and in extreme circumstances this can result in some terrible things happening and the army knows that because it happens a lot and while the people who commited these acts should be punished we need to make sure there are sufficient controls over people and their prisoners so such widespread incidents like this don't happen.

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Emps

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Bugimus
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist

From: New California
Insane since: Mar 2000

posted posted 05-09-2004 01:10

[edit]whoa! everyone posted at once. I was replying to DL just now...

I completely agree with you *except* it not being contemptable. It is also "normal" to abuse prisoners of war but I also find that unacceptable.


. . : DHTML Slice Puzzle : . . . : Justice 4 Pat Richard : . .

(Edited by Bugimus on 05-09-2004 01:11)

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-09-2004 02:03

Bugs: I agree.

What I was largely objecting to was Jestah calling them animals and psychopaths. Things are even scarier than that as they are normal people and we have to face up to the fact that normal people can do terrible things in terrible situations and we have to watch out for it constantly. In the Holocaust it was normal people who drove the trains to the death camps and it was normal people that compromised the bureaucracy that allowed the industrialisation of death.

Ramasax: I'm unsure who you are talking about but no one here is saying that the whole US is at fault for the actions of a few people - these things happen in every country. What I do think is interesting that people so often paint Islam as some kind of threat when it is purely the actions of a minority. Perhaps both sides have lessons to learn here - I just doubt anyone is in a learning frame of mind at the moment.

What worries me is that you think that actually questioning the actions of our leaders is somehow some kind of subversive act whereas it is the true balance of a democratic society and anything else is a very dangerous road to go down.

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Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 02:59
quote:
What worries me is that you think that actually questioning the actions of our leaders is somehow some kind of subversive act whereas it is the true balance of a democratic society and anything else is a very dangerous road to go down.



No problem with questioning leaders at all. But when objectiveness and truth is discarded and/or distorted by the media/big players is when I get concerned, because that is a very dangrous road as well.

quote:
What I do think is interesting that people so often paint Islam as some kind of threat when it is purely the actions of a minority.



Actions of a minority. Supported by the majority. From what I have seen, Islam IS a threat. Hardly the peacful religion some would try and paint it as. You simply have to look at the culture it has cultivated to see that.

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-09-2004 05:03

Ramasax: It warms Europeans heart to hear an Americn complain about the left wing bias of the US press

And while a while ago I would have been able to argue (possiblt successfully) that it was in fact a vocal minority that considered the US (and its allies) to be the Great Satan after the invasion of Iraq and all the human rights abuses (including lets be honest the faked stuff) I'm unsure if that is the case now.

------------------------
It is this kind of thing that makes me wonder if there was a problem higher up the chain of command in not preparing for these abuses:

quote:
As international anger continued to grow over the Americans' behaviour, one of the seven soldiers facing possible court martial for abusing detainees revealed that she did not read, or even see, a copy of the Geneva Convention until two months after she was charged. Specialist Sabrina Harman, 26, said she now understood that it was regularly breached at Abu Ghraib. "I read the entire thing, highlighting everything the prison is in violation of. There's a lot," she said.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/05/09/wtort09.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/05/09/ixnewstop.html

If someone is running a prison and looking after prisoners why were they not actually sat down and instrcuted on the Geneva Convention and a prisoner's human rights?

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Emps

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Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-09-2004 05:08

And how about this?:

quote:
TORTURE REPORT MAY HAVE BROKEN CLASSIFICATION RULES

By classifying an explosive report on the torture of Iraqi prisoners as "Secret," the Pentagon may have violated official secrecy policies, which prohibit the use of classification to conceal illegal activities.

The report, authored by Maj. Gen. Antonio Taguba, found that "between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility, numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees."



http://www.fas.org/sgp/news/secrecy/2004/05/050504.html

Clearly the perpertrators need to be punished severely but there does need to be a shake up in the system - clearly things like this will still happen (I doubt short of getting rid of war we can stop i completely) but this widespread abuse needs to be addressed at higher levels in the military.

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Emps

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Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-09-2004 05:10

And not wishing to go on about it but what about the possible stripping an beating of a 12 year old girl:

http://www.itv.com/news/623337.html

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Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 06:07

Emps, you seem to be under the impression that I give a shit what Europeans, or any other country for that matter, thinks about the US.

And that article about the stripping and beating of a 12 yo girl. Sure, straight from the mouth of the enemy. Or do you consider al-Jazeera to be a reliable source of news? Next thing you know we will have concentration camps and gas chambers set up and Bush will be shown with a silly mustache. Oh, the power of propaganda.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-09-2004 06:19)

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 06:21
quote:
From what I have seen, Islam IS a threat. Hardly the peacful religion some would try and paint it as. You simply have to look at the culture it has cultivated to see that.



HAHAHA, yo ramasax..go read this

your source was too anti-muslim...

you shouldn't read from Muslim haters to find out about Islam...(same rule applies to anything else, I believe it is a common sense)

not to mention what so called christians have done...

I am so sick of people trying to justify their actions, beliefs, leaders etc.

...hey people...get over that shit...think out of box.

I mean seriously, every nation has done crazy shit...none is holy...get over it

(Edited by Ruski on 05-09-2004 06:34)

Ramasax
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From: PA, US
Insane since: Feb 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 06:44
quote:
Conservative Christian author and radio pastor Dave Hunt claims: "...there are more than 100 verses in the Qur'an advocating the use of violence to spread Islam. In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims, 'Take not the Jews and Christians as friends....Slay the idolaters [non-Muslims] wherever ye find them.... Fight against such...as believe not in Allah...' (Surah 5:51; 9:5,29,41, etc..). Though most Muslims would shrink from obeying such commands, this is official Islam and it cannot change without admitting that Muhammad was a false prophet and murderer."



This is not a claim, but fact. Explain it.

In any case, I wasn't even referring to the site you are thinking. http://www.faithfreedom.org/ a site run by former Muslims.

I was simply stating to take a look at the culture Islam has cultivated.

(Edited by Ramasax on 05-09-2004 06:50)

Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 07:18

once again you ignore the fact:

quote:
Islam is not a homogenous religion. It is divided into many subgroups, including Sunni, Shi'ite, and Sufi. A very small, radical, hate-filled, extremist, Fundamentalist, terrorist wing does exist. So too does a much larger peaceful, moderate wing. Unfortunately, the former seem to capture all the media's attention, while the latter is rarely heard from.

It obvious that no one individual speaks for all Muslims. Islam has no single central authority, comparable to the pope and Vatican for the Roman Catholic Church, or to various General Assemblies and the Lambeth Conferences for the Anglican Communion. Rather, it is divided into many traditions and schools.

This phenomenon is true of most religions. Consider the over 1,000 Christian groups in North America. They include some hate-filled groups as well


----
don't just pick random quotes man...read the whole thing...

Emperor
Maniac (V) Mad Scientist with Finglongers

From: Cell 53, East Wing
Insane since: Jul 2001

posted posted 05-09-2004 14:03
quote:
Ramasax said:

Emps, you seem to be under the impression that I give a shit what Europeans, or any other country for that matter, thinks about the US.



Well your posts above suggest that you do give a shit about both domestic and foreign reporting of this so........

And if you don't give a shit then you should - America doesn't live in a little bubble separate from the world and this kind of thing can have long term reprecussions on the US.

___________________
Emps

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Ruski
Paranoid (IV) Inmate

From:
Insane since: Jul 2002

posted posted 05-09-2004 15:56

It is especially aim at Ramasax, but you all can also take a look at why religion promotes hatred, violence, etc.

Also: to protect Islam a bit more:

quote:
This is nothing but a manifestation of injustice, oppression and tyranny...and it is amongst the greatest of sins." Sheik Abdul-Azeez Aal ash-Sheik, grand mufti of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and head of the Council of Senior Scholars, speaking about the 9-11 terrorist attack.



and to all of you who want to find out more about Islam
check out that unbiased source.

(Edited by Ruski on 05-09-2004 16:03)

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