Topic: Information Architecture and feature set, part I. (Page 1 of 2)

OK, I've been making some notes, and doing some thinking, and have come up with some overall framework decisions here, that should effect most everything else (layouts, especially.) I could have put this into that thread, but I'm going to break this up into some general areas, and this really is its own topic, I think.

First, we have the entry, and we realize we have two different groups who will use this site, "Spectators" and "Players". Players will also sometimes function as spectators, but except for a few minor differences, they can be treated like everyone else when not actually playing.

The "Spectator" site is the real entry, and it's main focus should be to allow people to find matches they'd like to see. There will of course be other options, but this is the main meat of this site; find a match to view, and then view it (viewing matches is another module, more later.) I think this cvan be *mostly* handled by the proper application of a good search engine, and the front page can be a portal of different search views into the matches in play, or great matches from the past. (Last 5 played volleys, top 5 ranked current matches, top 5 ranked of all time, etc...) I'd like to force viewers to register for the site, but it's only necessary if you want to "rank" a match, or save preferences such as window positions, favorite players, etc...

Without logging in, a viewer will see the default entry, and find the current matches as well as being able to search the archives and player roster and find games to look at that way. If someone does register, they now can place "flags" on their favorite players and have that as one of the search views on their front page. The other benefit to logging in is that you can now rank the different volleys you view while spectating, and also make comments from the "peanut gallery". (We'll need to discuss the ranking methods used, this can get complex, more in a bit.)

The "Match View" is one of the most complex design issues we'll deal with, and this should be handled as a seperate module, since it does so much! For any game, we'll need to see a) who's playing in it, maybe graphic thumnails, "XXX vs. YYY"? and their screennames. These should be linked to their bio, which might be tied to that search engine as well, listing all the games they competed in. Then we need b) a description of the game, elapsed time, whose play it is, which category it might be being played in (more on this aspect too, later), and any explanatory text, possibly written by the players themselves? (hopefully) After this, we need the image being viewed, it might be round three, return volley by "YYY", in which case we'd se the comments YYY made when he uploaded the image, and also another window where we'd get the "peanut gallery" comments associated with this match, and this round. Everyone could read this, but only logged users (or players) can comment, of course. Logged users can also choose to "rank" this particular volley of the game, if they view it again and vote again, it doesn't count again, one user, one vote. (An issue was raised here, should players votes count for more? How about if they've played a lot of games? How about if they've played a lot of different opponents? How about if they've ranked high? We want this to be fair, without leaving too many holes for people to cheat too badly with the scorings!)

Other than those features, what more does the Match View need? Just an interface to get to the next volley, or jump to some other point in the game (each will have a different image, different peanut-gallery comments and a different option for ranking that specific volley. That's about it.

So! This "public" face to the site has these few things we need to do, and I think they might be best broken up into tasks we can all try and work on, here's what I see:

• The Logo, think not just website, but coffee cups, t-shirts, etc...
• The Look & Feel of the entry portal (cooperation with the search team, next).
• The User Database, we need to let people register, (with emails, confirmed, I'd hope), save their favorite players, save their votes (and on which matches), and their portal preferences. If they are also players, we need also their rankings, games played, and bios, which also imlies pictures. (Maybe one looking right, one left? That'd look good in the "XXX vs. YYY" bit of the match view.)
• The register page, what info can we get from people?
• The Search Matches section, this is also tied to the back-end team, of course.
• The Search Player section, related to the above project. Note: I'd like to include the option for registered users to "flag" certain players worth watching.
• The Match View section. This is a busy and cool section, lots of stuff happening here.
• All that other crap. (ie: what is PSPong, news, contact, possibly a forum.) All good stuff, and important to the overall performance of the site, but still, fluff.

A couple of issues that have been raised concerning the workings of this section, if we have rankings, how will they be calculated? How about handicaps for great players versus newbies? Since bandwidth will be an issue, påerhaps we should have "ladders" that must be climbed before being allowed to play the big games, first ladder could be <= 480x360px, second is 640x480-800x600px, third is 1024x768 and up? This way we don't clutter the server with multi-megabit crappy images, heh, and also allow for entry level players to compete more in their own division, so to speak. This "middle ground" could probably be it's own debate and project, it'll all have a big impact on the work at large.

I'll stop for now, and discuss the "flip side" of this site, the "Players" section in my next post. This section is going to get a lot more technical, and it's here that all those database bits from the front have to tie into. I don't see any need for this part of the site to work with the exact same interface as the front end, it might be best to make this one the "low tech" site in terms of fancy interface tricks, and confine our technical expertise to the back-end coding. More on this in a bit, expect a note at least as long as this one! (I'll save it as a TXT file for download somewhere.)

Your pal, -doc-



[This message has been edited by DocOzone (edited 12-03-2001).]

Doc: Very impressive and this should help focus everyone's minds. I'll wait for the next part before but some quick thoughts:

1. This polling business is clearly going to be tricky implement having people being able to vote on each volley and having different people with different rankings sounds a little too intricate to get the balance right (although if you did it could work very nicely). I'm wondering if it would be simpler to have everyone equal and allowing a vote per volley closing the vote for the previous volley when the new one starts. This would mean that people closely following the match would be given the most votes which might be right as they might be the experts on the match we could then do some kind of averaging or something. So someone could score a 4.3 on their serve (I prefer giving people options to rate things out of 5), then their opponent gets a 3.4 on their return, etc. it would encourage people to be consistenly good throughout their match and not just finish on a flurry.

2. Not being much of a graphics person I'm not sure if larger pieces would require more skill (sometimes its the intricate smaller pieces that could require the most work).

3. I'm wondering how the 'peanut gallery' would work - We could have a floating window containing something Dribble like, perhaps with some kind of indication where the new return happens so the time line is clear from the old comments or we could have the comments at the bottom of the main area (centre court) - I prefer the floating window business I think.

4. If we are trying to keep things sparse I'd like to see a second floating window with user details giving links to active matches and to flagged games and/or players. I'm not sure there can be a clear distinction between player and spectator and this could be all that is need for the distinction with an active player having extra controls to take them to their current match or to the file upload page, etc.

Anyway they are my initial thoughts I'm leaning in the direction of a sparse interface with a lot of the cleverness being server side. I think we could use something like DS's idea with a top bar containing some of the controls and a couple of windows - the user one and one which could display the comments (and current active games when you aren't actually in a game area).

Anyway thanks it should help keep everything moving in the right direction - you always seem to have a grasp of the Big Picture!!

Thoughts anyone?

Emps


You're my wife now Dave

Sounds good Doc, and Emps.

I will agre with Emps about larger pieces would require more skills. Often it's the small things as is difficult!

I got the psd from DS, will try do a twist on that one. Will try have these thoughts in my mind...

Softhead

[This message has been edited by Softhead (edited 12-03-2001).]

SH: If you are going to have a go redoing DS's initial ideas try making the left hand floating panel (with minimise, restore and maximise buttons) the user panel with something like:

You are logged in as Softhead

If you aren't click here
------------------------
Your active match is:
Softhead vs Darkshadow
match controls:
Upload next return
Add player comment
--------------------------
Your flagged players are:
Darkgarden
Weadah
Wakkos
-------------------------
Your flagged matches are:
Darkgarden vs twitch^
Wakkos vs InI
------------------------

See what that looks like - we'd probably need to have somehing like that scrolling with a fixed height.

Right hand panel would contain comments in game areas and current active matches elsewhere.

Looking forward to seeing what you can come up with.

Emps


You're my wife now Dave

woo!!! im confuzed here... Im gonna say, Keep up the good work! and I sure am glad I dont have to do any of this stuff...

Poking my head into the small vs large issue:

I agree that many times a smallish graphic can be more challenging than a large one (I've seen a buncha garbage that's 1200x800.) But, since bandwidth is an issue, possibly having a [b

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

Some great thinking going on here, I will try to make some think that fits with most of it .

InI: Thats just way over my head, but I get sort of what you mean about the database, but I love the front end of things so this is all letters and number to me. So the front end is my area I think?



Chris C

Emp: I was thinkin about making the first page (when you're not logged in) - but I can make them both. Just got an idea of how to do it...

Softhead

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

InI: I think I'm keeping up although I'm sure it would be easier if you were sitting here drawing it on the back of an envelope!! Some good thinking there.

SH: I didn't really want to restrict what you were planning there have a play and see what you come up with.

I was thinking that if you weren't logged in you'd see a 'you are not logged in. You can view the matches but to add comments and vote you will need to be register and be logged in. Log in here: FORMs or register here: LINK'.

Anyway I'm wondering if we should be keeping this section clear for more general discussion and then spin specific topics off into new threads - its up to the Doc but I would have thought thrashing out a DB would require a new thread.

I think we'd all be interested in the opinions/ideas of everyone else out there.

Emps


You're my wife now Dave

I just want to add, as a viewer who has had no involvement in this discussion, that I am ipmressed with the level to which this has been thought out and the level of energy being devoted to it.

I'd also like to add, that as the people who brought this to us, and as people I consider to be fantastic designers, I would really Love to see Weadah and Taxon have an input into the graphic design of the site.

DL-44: I agree (although you're no slouch so lets see what you've got too!!) - I would really love to see what they think and I would love to see some kind of Flash/PHP thingy working. Is there some kind of pointy stick in one of the cupoboards upstairs we could to get them out of the woodwork (they could also be busy so no pressure - just pointy sticks).

Emps

[edit: Added a splash of bold]

[This message has been edited by Emperor (edited 12-03-2001).]

Emps: That was basically what I was thinkin about, so it's okey then

Softhead

Ah, but I know that taxon is off on some kind of SECRET MILITARY MISSION (shh!) which may keep him gone for 3 to 6 months, and only the hope of an internet café somewhere to keep him sane. I've spoken with taxon quite a bit on ICQ, most of the design ideas I laid on you were just me pasing his ideas on to you (as seen through a "doc shape" filter, of course!) Weadah also has some trsavel plans in the near future, the details of which I'm vague on? Seems to me he's still floating around here somewhere, hmm? That being mentioned, I also need someone to help out with moderating this section during this period, taxon is totally tied up, and weadz can't do this all by himself! Poor taxon, he's going to be *so* surprised when he returns! :-)

I'll have to finish the discussion of the back-end tomorrow, I was up till 5:30am last night, and then up again while still morning, I'm zonked! InI, you know the database end of these things in a way that I do not, I just know what's got to be related to each other, I respect the skill and knowledge, but don't truly understand it! :-) I'll spend my time thinking about how it ought to work, and you tell us the best way to do it, cool? I trust you.

The back-end is going to be interesting, and it completely ties into the front-end too, so this database is going to be the glue that holds this whole thing together. The polling issue is going to be tricky, I was leaning towards the "one regitrant, one vote", but a friend of mine pointed out how easily this could be mis-used by people more interested in winning than in fairness. (ie: get 1000 friends to join just to vote for their design.) I was also thinking about the voting, if we postulate a time-based game, it might be over long before someone gets to log in and see it, should the voting only last for the duration, or could it be instead a voting that keeps on happening, with new people voting on games that were over months ago? Could be an interesting twist, and would probably be more fair in the long run.

When thinking about the "ladders", leading from small images to the possibility of large images, I was thinking only of bandwidth and storage space, nothing more. Perhaps in the earlier qualifying rounds you would just be limited in the sizes of your images, and the later stages could be small, but *could* be much larger? I was thinking that perhaps we will need to set up FTP storage for the current ZIP of the last PSD file. Figure 100 matches happening right now, and an avergae ZIP size of 3 megs, we could hold two per match, and then automate the deletion of older ZIPs as the newer ones are uploaded? This way we could keep it at less than the GIG pugzly set up for us. More to think about, at least. Ah well, that's it for me tonight, I'm off to bed, later!

Your pal, -doc-

Yea nice ideas Doc but all about backend and that is not my area .

Well I was thinking about peoples profiles and MAX's lovly OZONE Asylum Locator Millennium Edition -) came into mind, but have a smaller version of it and call it the PSpong locator (or somethink), so at the register page they have to pick a place on a dropdown menu of where there form and this gets add to the locator with there profile just like the OZONE Asylum Locator Millennium Edition.

What do you think about this?



Chris C

Doc: I agree about the voting but I suspect we won't win in the end whatever we do. We should be able to do some interesting things with the voting logs though to see if any unusual patterns occur like all the winners votes coming from people who have only signed up since their match and have only voted in their matches if at all. There are some interesting bits of MySQL which might work for slicing and dicing the data but it will take a bit of working out to figure out how to get it all out in the correct form.

DS: A PSPong locator is a nice idea but its currently an interesting add on (we could also have little pictures of ourselves or even use the pixel people - which would also be a good idea) and I think we need more ideas/discussion on logos, layout and backend (we can always add things like that as icing on the cake). However, it is well worth mentioning and it is something that should be brone in mind.

Emps


You're my wife now Dave

Just some idiots opinions on what i`ve read so far.

I`m impressed by the brain power being exerted here. Awesome job y`all.

sounds like the interface is getting pretty complex. Don`t forget us boneheads. Perhaps a twist on DS` table like setup, with a tool bar on top for spectators, for tagging favorite players, matches, searches, etc, and extended toolbar for players and/or registered users.

in each match, show images in the main, Player info in a cell ( links to bios, etc.), comments in a cell (with an *add a comment* Dribble for regis. users, non reg get redirected to the sign up) Opposite side, Player comments per volley, etc, reload relevent info on a per match basis. Page back and forth through volleys. This way the page remains consistent throughout, only the available tools and info vary.
One vote /volley/user, everybodys vote counts the same. ( just because someone plays alot, doesn`t necessarily mean they have better taste.) after the vote, disable the voting booth til the page loads a new volley.

On image size, seems to me 800x600 should be enough for all but, perhaps play-off or championship matches. Earn the right to eat extra bandwidth and storage space.

emps scale of 1-5 sounds right with ave/volley determining round winner, and he who wins most rounds wins ( like boxing) With a predetermined number of volleys, perhaps rising in championship/ playoff rounds. Keeps it fairest, hardest to cheat the system. ( I think )

Ini seems to have a great grip on the Db , if I understand what she said... Between that and Weadz PHP, anthing should be possible.

Aside from that ,I`m with izzy. Glad you guys( and gals) are here.

A thought on 'scoring' the matches...

You might want to consider Judges.

The judges could be randomly selected from those who 'register' or from amongst the 'players.' How many Judges? Minimum three... odd numbers after that, five, seven, nine.

If you go with Doc's idea of the 'ladder'... newbies vs newbies... three judges.
As you move up the ladder in class, 5 judges etc... and then when you 'heavyweights get at it... maybe seven judges. Nine Judges for Major showdowns. But really you only need three.

The "Points System" could be modelled on the Olympic system of a maximum of 10 and everything in between...or, which I prefer as it's far easier, the "Boxing 10 point MUST"
system. If you're not familiar with this method of scoring it's pretty simple. Each judge must give 10 points to the person they beleive won the round... 9 points or less to the other player. If you believe it was a 'tie' you must give 10 points to each player.

Because one player is the first to play... scoring doesn't start until the second player has his/her turn so the Judges scorecard after the 2nd turn could be something like this

1st Judge (name) scores this 10-9 for player 1 (name)
2nd Judge (name) scores this 10-9 for player 2 (name)
3rd Judge (" ) 10-8 " " 2

The theory behind the scoring in this match would be... keeping in mind that the scoring doesn't start until the 2nd turn... is that the first Judge, in his/her opinion beleives the orginal image played was better than what the 2nd player did with it. So the first player
gets 10 points the 2nd player gets 9 points.

The 2nd judge saw it exactly opposite... liked what the 2nd player did with... player two gets 10 points....9 points for player 1.

The 3rd Judge more than really liked what the 2nd player did with the image and gave the 2nd player the mandatory 10 points for winning that play...and gave only 8 points to player one.

So at the end of the first 'turn' the score is 29 to 27 for player one.

The three Judges score each turn, until the match is over. The points are tallied and you can have outright winners/losers...draws...or majority decisions.

When is the match over? My 2cents on this would be that if you go with Doc's ladder...
and you have 'newbie vs newbie' those matches should be 4 rounds. Each player gets two whacks at the cat.. so to speak.

After a 'newbie' has won... pick a number 2,4,5,6 matches.. they move up the ladder to 6 round matches, where in order to move on they have to win.... again...pick a number,

So there's a basic notion... if you think it's worth expanding on... I'll do so... but one of the reasons I like the idea of Judges... is that they can become part of the 'match' in so far as the 'peanut gallery' (yay Howdy!) can heap praise on them...or dump on them... hopefully all in good fun... because while there will be some serious work going on here... seems to me there should still be lots of big fun. No?

I think you should also consider "Exhibition Matches"... No scoring. One of the heavyweights could get paired with a newbie in a 4 round match. What a thrill and hugely instructive for the newbie!

Just what kind of nightmare this might require on the backend as far as DB's go... might just kill it. <g>

Anyway... just a thought. You're free to flush it... you'll not offend me. <bg>

Nice table design, Ini. Although I'd suggest storing the date of a post as well? I know, we can always sort them bei their id, but I mean, everything should have a date ;-)

gotta go to school now, more from me later.

Tyberius Prime

Whew! Lots of ideas and creativity floating around, here. Since most of the coding wizards are here, getting involved, I just thought I'd drop by. Would be up to 'filling' in for taxon until he gets back, but I guess that's Doc's call. To the 'graphics' part : Couldn't we start a section for graphic entries? Maybe that would get the 'ball' rolling! Just my $.02.

Coolness WS, I was just waiting to hear those words from you! Done deal. The main thing that I see spinning out of control is the "who's playing next" bits, I've already lost the overview of what's going on there. The only other thing that's important is to lock finished matches, you've got a little link down there for that (I'll archive them away, never fear!)

I'm going to see about swapping some of the pages on our (empty) site, and I'll see if I can find and collect all of the designs proposed, make 'em easy to find.

Your pal, -doc-

And what I will add....

While I did setup a GB, I can say that if we need to go past that, that's POSSIBLE, but I'd want to look at an advertising solution at that point, just to help cover costs.

Other than that, this is really starting to shape up.

But lets get some splash screen on the site real quick.

Anyone want to do some quick Flash thingie?

Pugzly: The Doc has been putting the layout suggestions on the site but it may be a good idea to have some kind of holding page and store suggested bits (layouts, logos, etc) on internal pages.

You'll have to keep an eye on the site usage as you've been generous already and we wouldn't want to take advantage of that.

Emps

Might not be the time ( or place ) for this, but anybody thought about a special court for Flash Pong ?

Several people have already told me I should start grabbing up any other of the "...Pong.com" domains, and flashPong.com was one of the first mentioned. I've already got 15 domains to care (and pay for) now, so I think I'll have to wait till after christmas, but it seems inevitable, doesn't it?

Your pal, -doc-

And HTMLPong.com, DHTMLPong.com and CSSPong.com, of course!!

Anyway I know most people will have read it but it looks like lallous has come up with a way to get layers to work properly like IFRAMEs for NS4.x:
www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum2/HTML/001217.html

So it looks like it should be possible to load different elements into panels without having to reload the whole page which should allow some interesting (and cool) features. I just thought I'd mention it at this stage (when we really need logo and layout ideas and InI's good work on the DB) but it is worth bearing in mind.

Emps


You're my wife now Dave

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

InI: Be sure to let me know if you need a hand with anything - I have just been cheerleading so far while the look has been knocked around by more graphically talented members and, lets be honest, I don't have the legs for the uniform (although I'm quite taken with the pom poms).

As we are getting towards the coding stages its worth asking if we should try for standards compliance or throw in a table or so or we could work up some kind of little bit of browser detection to keep NS4.x layed out OK.

Emps


You're my wife now Dave

http://onezero.no/designathlon/

Just a tiny Norwegian version of Photoshop Tennis, thought I would share :-)

Softhead

Softhead: I think it would be a nice touch to link to various collaborative efforts like this so keep them coming (pos. in a different thread so we know what is going on!!).

Emps

you know, what we need is a ladder and rankings for this.........



[This message has been edited by InSiDeR (edited 12-06-2001).]

I'm liking the idea of loading the different panels separately a lot. If one is adding a comment or submitting one's vote then there really is no need to reload the whole page - I suspect such an approach would cut down on the sites bandwidth hogging and allow the development of a more graphically intensive look (if that was deemed to be a good idea). Thoughts?

Insider: That kind of thing can be spun from the stats that will be compiled.

Emps

well, emperor, how would you realize this??? Frames? I mean the partial reload thing.
(Ini, just contact me on ICQ when we get around the distribution of who codes what, k?)

Tyberius Prime

[This message has been edited by Tyberius Prime (edited 12-07-2001).]

TP: Sorry I wasn't very specific - I was referring to the link I gave a couple of posts higher up:
www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum2/HTML/001217.html

Emps

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.

hey you! yes, you people in power over there. either tell us what to do or put one of us coders in charge of the serverside issues!

This was meant as a polite request, but turned out to be quite energetic. no offense meant :-)
(and I always wanted to say that...)

so long,

Tyberius Prime

The poster has demanded we remove all his contributions, less he takes legal action.
We have done so.
Now Tyberius Prime expects him to start complaining that we removed his 'free speech' since this message will replace all of his posts, past and future.
Don't follow his example - seek real life help first.