Topic awaiting preservation: Do You believe in GOD ][? Again (Page 3 of 3)

First of all god does exsist and its had been proven in many bibles if u understand reading them....
"In the beging god created heaven and earth" Almost every bible starts the same but what doest it mean. Probably as if this big guy had created himself a paradise in skies and a shit hole for us huh? But the real answear is that he created a space and planets....
I am not saying that u should start beliving into god right away. The most important thing is to live a good life and be happy whatever u do.

The scientist have also found an arc high in the mountains where the water never meant to excist. And the story comes from bible about Moses.... I guess you have heard!
Anyway these are just few exemples but dont worry man he just gave as a free will and what it really means that its up to us to decide how we want to live our lives what choices we wanna make and so on . Immagine if we were manipulated like stupid pupets we would live like a goddamn monkeys fucking and eatind other stuff everyday.
Dont hate him if someone dies , death is a natural way of saying "slowdown u have done too much"

Uhhh...yeah. Whatever.

Welcome to the Asylum...

BTW...if that which they found really is the Arc...then the Bible is wrong...because it is much too small to carry all those animals...of course, that's only if one takes the Bible literally...

Though I find the Bible (and all 'Holy' books) to be an interesting read...I hardly find any real evidence in them for a God...

So back to the original question...when did the battle take place between God and Satan...and why is it pretty much ignored in the Old Testament?

Ruski: Its not clear what you are referring too (as there have been lots of claims) but the latest claims for an Ark on Mount Arrarat (if you are ever in the area you should go and see it it is amazing ) have been disproved - its just a 'fossilised' mud slide.

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Awww...Emps, you shouldn't 'pop' his bubble like that...now he's going to need the next 10-20 years to get his life back together...

In case he's wondering, here's a link for all your non-creationistic needs... http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-mustread.html

I really love this link...

Enjoy!

Oh.. Well even if I am religious I still find a lot of stuff confusing. Like Adam and Eve were gods first creations, but the first humans where this goddamn monkey looking guys....I still dont get it? Anyway I find more facts in science.....

WS, there are some very good articles on that site you just cited. Did you see the one about how Xianity and Evolution don't necessarily oppose one another? As the site points out, there is a big difference between Creation Science and Theistic Evolution.

. . : slicePuzzle

Yup. Like I said, I really like that site.

So, when did the 'battle in Heaven' occur?

If it did, it happened before the Garden of Eden story. Genesis starts out with the creation of the world itself followed closely by Adam and Eve and the serpent (Satan) appears in the garden. So since Satan's current predicament resulted from the war in heaven then it had to have occurred prior to Adam and Eve.

You mentioned original sin earlier. The doctrine of original sin refers to the sin of Adam and not the sin of any participants in the war in heaven.

Revelation 12 mentions the war: http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=REV+12&language=english&version=NIV &showfn=on&showxref=on

Here are couple other references: [url=http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2+pet+2%3A4&NIV_version=yes&language=english]http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=2+pet+2%3A4&NIV_version=yes&language=english[/UR L]
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=jude+6&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=1 9&y=10

[edit]WS, I've been doing just a little looking into this and it seems much of the common views on the war in heaven come from the Book of Enoch. That's part of the Apocrypha, you know the books in the Catholic bible but not the Protestant one? Here's a link for background on it: http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/enochs2.htm

And here's the book itself: http://www.bible2000.org/lostbooks/enoch1b.htm

There's a lot there to digest. I'm rushing through this so I hope I'm not getting too sloppy in my replies. And don't worry, I've been pondering my response to the formal debate... that question has got my little gray cells going into overdrive

. . : slicePuzzle

[This message has been edited by Bugimus (edited 07-12-2002).]

Ok , thanks Bugs...but this puzzles me

quote:

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4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[1] putting them into gloomy dungeons[2] to be held for judgment;

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For here it mentions sin...but apparently, this happens before Original Sin...I take it that Original Sin then refers to Mankind only?

Then why is it called Original Sin and not 'The first sin of Mankind'? Or is that just semantics?

I always thought that only Mankind was given the ability of free choice...but apparently, this is not the case...it would appear that Angels also have this ability...

Yes, Original Sin refers to mankind's sin. Paul talks about this in his letter to the Roman church. Here's a bit of it:
http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=ROM+5:12-19&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on&showxref=on

It's called original sin because of verse 12 I just linked. Sin began with the first man Adam. The words "original sin" are not found in the Bible just as you won't find the word Trinity. They're just names that Xian theologians have given concepts that are there.

When it comes to whether angels have free choice or whatever. I really think that belongs in the realm of speculation because the Bible itself doesn't really go into the details of it. I'm not sure how much of what we know about angels is based in Hebrew myth and how much is actually truth.

Why is it (and thanks for the link...interesting) that there is relatively no real information on Angels (who/what they are, etc)?

The other question is then, that the 'fallen' angels...are they then demons? Devils? I thought there was only supposed to be one Devil (satan). But these other Angels are in hell, as well (according to that link you posted over the war in heaven). How many are there? I mean, how many angels are there, anyway? Can they reproduce? What kind of beings are they? Are they of pure energy, or what?

I mean, it is curious, that the whole thing is not explained in the Bible...

I always thought that the angels were the Seraphim and had lived and walked the earth until they were called to heaven. I believe this was supposed to have occurred before the ?war in heaven? that resulted in the casting down of the fallen star, Satan. The Seraphim being the first age in some Xian beliefs. I really don?t have any basis for this but I seem to remember pulling it out of Genesis somewhere.

As far as fallen angels? I think what you call them is irrelevant. They are fallen angels whether you call them demons or devils or not. Even if they are demonstratively devil?s, Satan can still be THE devil without conflicting with the belief that there is only one Devil. As far as the number of angels and fallen angels? I couldn?t hazard a guess? so I?ll keep my mouth shut.

Just some background ?

I?m Pagan? most closely related to Wicca. I believe in some higher power based in nature. I believe in reincarnation. I don't believe in Hell or Heaven. I believe that theology is better than religion and, yes, there is a difference. My biggest issue with religion is that it offers up a shield for all of the masses that don't want to be responsible for what they do. "The devil made me do it" or "I'll just repent for what I've done" as excuses come to mind. I don?t think that anyone is wrong in their beliefs. I won?t chastise anyone for not believing what I believe and I hope they return the favor. If God is so good wouldn?t he present himself in as many ways as possible to "save" as many of us as he could? My Deities have a different face than yours but they?re the same thing. When you get down to the REAL precepts of almost all religions they all say the same thing.

?Try to be nice to each other?

I hope I?ll be able to be around to answer questions and respond frequently. It?s been a long time and my Debate Engine is a little rusty.


BWT: I have a theory or two.

1) You can relate the papal structure to a medival Kingdom with a surprising amount of accuracy. If you view the Pope as a King and the Arch Bishops and their Dioces as the Vassal lords it starts to fall into place. Do you realize what that makes us? Peasants. Well... at least we aren't sheep anymore. We still give our money to the Vassal Lord so they can tythe to the king. They tythe in order to have his protection. It seems to be evident in the molestation cases here in America.

2) My other theory has to do with the adamant denial of evolution by most Xians. I think their vehemence comes from the "created in God's image" statement in the Bible. They believe we were created to look like God. If we have evolved from whatever he created us as we have evolved BEYOND God. They have certain issues with this I imagine. What I think is really meant by that statement is that we were created in God's vision. He wanted us to be... say, a single celled organism. So we were. After that he left us alone for a few million years and lo and beyold... here we are trying to confuse things today.

Just my drop in the bucket.

GrythusDraconis

I suggest some good reading matirial for all of you, go out and buy a Cabalah book. It is very interesting how math ties in to religion. I have read 3 Cabalah books already and am still reading another. They talk about Pentagrams and Hexagrams and the laws of Phi, and how several spritual things relate using alpha numbers and tarot cards. Very interesting, religios or non religios the Cabalah is influentual.

Do a search for holographic paradigm. It's some pretty interesting stuff. If true, then God is the best computer programer ever, and we are just all apart of a giant hologram.

Oh yea, also. I have not had a computer for a while, I just moved to Washington DC and just got things rolling again. Have a good day.