Topic awaiting preservation: Attack on Moscow's theater.... (Page 1 of 1)

Hey there hostages been held since wednesday...whatafuk..is gonna happen next...80 terrorist dressed in seft detonate suits...500 hostages......lets discuss this stuff now!

Ruski: That is some scary business - I've been following it on BBC24. They showed a diagram of the bombs that have been rigged inside the theatre - I doubt you would use as much to demolish the place (well the Chechen terrorists have said they are all ready to die). I suspect their time limit is running out and they are going to start killing people soon (and there are what 600-700 hostages?).

A blast has been reported but when I turned the TV off it wasn't clear what had happened - it was possibly thought that special forces had made an attempt to enter the building but nothing concrete - BBC report here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2363145.stm

[edit: Ruski are you actually in/from Russia?]

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Wow, that is messed up. I really don't know what else to say.

Most recent report is that the terrorists had set a deadline for when they were going to start killing hostages wholesale -- and yes, the terrorists and the entire building were rigged to explode -- and right before the deadline, the army/police (not sure which) stormed the place, killed or captured the majority of the terrorists, and freed the hostages. Hostages definitely died in the raid, no numbers yet, but clearly the terrorists were prepared to kill all of them. I'm going to assume that this resolution is better than the alternative.

Back when the Russians were originally fighting their war in Chechenya, the Chechen guerillas sounded heroic and valiant. The rebel leader who defeats the oppressive government by masterful use of his limited resources -- people in the U.S. love that kind of story, since it reminds us of the start of our history, a time when we were freedom fighters too, instead of this giant morally-ambiguous warmonger/lawgiver entity. But I'm going to take a wild guess and say that anyone who was still rooting for Chechenya definitely isn't anymore.

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 10-26-2002).]

I'd heard that the man in charge was related to the guy who kidnapped and killed the British telecoms guys a few years back - those family parties must be a scream

[edit: The British ambassador has said that pos. 20 hostages died the news suggests as many as 70 are dead - they are currently clearing dozens of bodies out of the theatre. a large number of the survivors are being treated for gas poisoning as it appears the special forces pumped large amounts into the building first]

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

For anyone following this the death toll is now at least 140 (that is 90 hostages and the hostage takers). See:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2364873.stm

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Hey Perfect Thunder....the special force was "Spetsnas" I think...

I was just watching the news over here, and they said that the gas the Russians used violates international chemical weapons conventions. I'm not sure, though, since I only caught the tail end of the story. At any rate, they could have used a non-fatal gas, don't you think?

Suho1004: The gas was 'non-fatal' although there are now suspicions that it might be based on a gas which does break international treaties on chemical weapons (I've just seen an interview with an expert on the news).

The current death toll (for hostages) now stands at 118 and at least 2 of them have died directly due to the gas. However, there are up to 500 people still in hospital being treated for the effects of the gas (they weren't letting relatives in). The problem was that the hospitals weren't told what gas was used so they couldn't focus their treatment.

News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2365383.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2365525.stm

[edit: Actually I missed the importance of the first report and ony picked it up from the news tonight - all but one or two of the hostages were killed by the gas. Most of the terrorists seem also to have been incapacitated before the special forces killed them.]

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

It appears the gas may have been BZ or one based on it and due to a loophole these 'non-lethal' nerve agents aren't actually illegal. We'll probably see more use of these kinds of gases in the future too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,820655,00.html

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Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Well...gas. Hmmm...

Don't quite know what to think about the use of gas in that situation...on one hand, it probably did make a huge difference...and resulted in the end of the hostage-taking. There was, most likely, no other way, other than to give in to the Terrorists demands...and even that might have ended badly...or a storming of the building (which happened), but without incapacitating the terrorists first...probably many more deaths of the hostages...but that's a lot of probablies, isn't it?

However...the gas has killed some of the hostages...and who knows what type of long-lived effects it may have on the rest...it may turn out to be a fate worse than dying quickly...hard to say.

Alarming is, that it was done. I wonder what would have been done without the huge media presence...and global interest in the case.

The main question - was it really necessary? And...did it make a big enough diference to warrant the use of it? To be sure...had the terrorists set off all the explosives, there certainly wouldn't have been much left...

Hmmm...I'm still thinking this one over...just glad that the majority of the hostages survived...

And my heart goes out to the families and relatives of those who didn't...

From what I heard, the gas used was an opium derivative. Not to sure about the legality or it, or whether it breaks any chemical weapons conventions...

[rant]
However, my opinion is that they were entirely in the right to do what they did. It's nice to finally see a gov't act on a situation without dragging it out for a month or two or 12, making a great big media frenzy over it. But then, I see a lot of things that should be different in the world... One is having people sit on deathrow for 20 and 30 years. It's ridiculous. Especially those who plead guilty to their charges. Should be more like, the first Saturday of every month, we kill everyone on deathrow. Then extend the list of deathrow punishable offences. Like, any kind of murder (premeditated or not), rape, armed robbery,... the list goes on. I can almost guarentee the crime rate would drop like a rock...
[/rant]

takes a deep breath

... OK... back to the Russian situation...


[edit: grammer]
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-- Jack of all trades, master of that which has my attention at
the moment.

Unoriginal Cell 693

[This message has been edited by Lord_Fukutoku (edited 10-29-2002).]

Shi-eeeeet the chechenians are fuking morons they are like the damn talibans living in the goddamn caves and eating shit-sandwiches...Russia is having the same problem as USA...the president announced that they will fight the terrorism...well...thanks god there is no oil mines in chechenia...hahah! ohh well never mind...at least the bastards have no money!

Well Ruski, are you sure of that? I'm not...it could be that they either have, or will get, ties to other terrorist networks...maybe Al-Qaeda...

Therefore, maybe they do have money, and resources...

After all, they are still a threat, are they not? And Russia has been trying to stamp them out now, for quite a while...

And though I do support Moscows view on handling terrorists (not giving in to demands)...I'm not sure if the using of gas, esp. concerning the hostages in this case, was very well implimented...

Actually, I'm still wrestling with myself over the use of such gas, in such a situation...where does it end? I mean, one could use such gas in a number of situations...couldn't one? What about against demonstrators? Demonstration over...

I think this event has opened a whole new can of worms...granted, that tear gas is a relatively common approach to demonstrations, etc. But to actually use more...'potent' forms of gas in such situations...hmmm...not all that far from Saddam here, are we?

We are still treating the effects of problems, and not the actual cause...why did the terrorists 'decide' that such an action was warranted? They were willing to go to their deaths to accomplish their demands...scary stuff...and what they wanted was an end to the 'occupation' of their land...hmmm...

Umm Emperor yes I am Russian...well WebShaman I bet you are right about that gas stuff...and use of it...but how else could they have got rid of 80 damn terrorists dressed in self detonate suits?

Well Ruski, I am hardly a member of, nor have I received much more than rudimentary training in, Anti-Terrorist OPs...so I really don't know what else could have been done...

And I am not directly questioning the use of such gas here...just considering what could come out of this...

The main thing being, that the Terrorists were willing to handle (otherwise, they would have just killed everybody in the building right away...). I think this is the major point...if it was a real suicide mission, why didn't they just explode the bombs immediately after taking control of the hostages? Somehow, I think that they really wanted to accomplish something without harming anyone, if possible. Maybe a compromise would have been possible...or a deal.

However, it's said and done...and I am left wondering, where it will lead to...

The terrorists were demanding things that the Russians weren't going to comply to...
"We didn't believe they would let us out, even if their demand for the withdrawal of troops from Chechnya had been be satisfied."
It makes me wonder, though.. If they faked like it was happening, how would the terrorists react? "Oh.. Alright, then. Sorry about that. G'bye." I wonder if they would have just left as simply as that. It was a suicide mission with demands, really. I think that they must have known enough to know that the Russians would not have withdrawn the troops. Even if they did, the terrorists would have probably kept demanding things until they upset the Russians... and if they didn't, the Russians must've been lying or making a huge compromise. I wonder if they could have lied, but made it look like they were really negotiating... I imagine that if they were just like "yes men" that they wouldn't be believed... Then again, if the negotiations went wrong, that could've lead to hostage executions. If the gas didn't lead to people dying [really, they should have used stuff that wouldn't], then I think it would have been a fine solution. It is disappointing that it didn't work that way, but if they didn't do something quickly, they probably would have ended up losing many hostages, possibly more than they did. I do not have every bit of information. I don't know exactly what possibilities [like what kinds of gasses or medical teams] were available to back up their raid, nor do I know exactly what the terrorists would have done... However, at least it's not the worst result.

A big complaint I have is about the American media. They were busy covering this sniper and accomplice that were shooting random people... He killed about a dozen, but it took him a few weeks. It dominated every news station. Then, there was a small, private plane crash which killed a politician. I'm not trying to take away from the deaths of these people or their value, but there were hundreds of people being threatened in Russia. The event could have easily gone very bad, and it would have been among the worst terrorist attacks ever... Yet, day after day, they just showed things about this sniper. They didn't have any information on the news that ever helped. It was all conflicting... not to mention that none of them were close to accurate. They only caught the sniper because he made a mistake. My complaint, if you haven't caught onto it yet.. is that every news station, every time it was on, was massively covering this event, which only ended up involving a dozen people.. Attacks didn't happen every day, even. There were more people's lived being threatened by these terrorists than the sniper could kill in years, and yet, the sniper got all of the coverage. I talked to many people who didn't even know that it was going on until I said something... that's how bad the coverage was. It seems as if a dozen people are more important than hundreds just because they're American.
Even going beyond that, there were surveys that were taken that showed that people were more afraid of snipers than they were of terrorists... What, are you kidding me? A sniper kills a few people and everybody forgets about the threat presented by terrorists at any place in the world at any time... That disappoints me.

Well, 'What's closer to home, has more basis in reality'...not saying that that is right, or that I share this view...but it does apply, sadly.

What is of more concern...what's happening down the 'block'...or a thousand+ miles away?

I'm sure that most Americans couldn't locate Chenya on a map...or even spell it correctly (as I incorrectly did...)

Sad...yes.

One hundred or more hostages died...I watched it all on the International channel.... sad but true many families lost their relatives....
anyway "ao" could you share some of your background with us...it seems like you are new here...so welcome to Asylum, where the people are ding dong!