Topic awaiting preservation: Censorship: Protecting Children, or Limiting Exploration?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/04/scotus.library.smut/index.html

Okay, now I was just reading this article, and it's my personal belief, that people should have enough common sense, to only view material they are legaly allowed to view. I think in a library, ALL sources of information should be at your fingertips, this would mean zero censorship, I doubt anybody would go to the library to look at porn anyways. setting a limit on what somebody can view at a library, seems unconstitutional, a public library at least. The systems some libraries have installed that works with "smart card" technology, sounds like a solid idea, but the cost scares librarians away. But, I do agree with Emma Rood, the internet can be an invaluable tool, to help build support groups for closet-homosexual teenagers. Taking an outlet away from an already discrimanted against group of people just seems wrong. I think that there is no way to completely, and fairly censor the internet, and trying to before you can acomplish it successfuly, just seems pointless. Anyways, I just felt like throwing this out there to see where you guys stand, thoughts?

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

To answer your subject question:

Yes

:::krets.net:::

I'm going to have to agree with Krets.

Some days I think that the government has no business telling citizens what's acceptable to view.

But then there is the dillema that most parents are completely inept human beings. Someone has to protect their children. They don't care.

my first thought, not really related to the censorship thing, is do you have any idea what you're doing at age 13, much less if you're a lesbian or not? sorry, but i work with teenagers and know how incredibly confused they are in general, so i just find that interesting.

one solution in the article stood out and made sense, as was already mentioned:

quote:

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A more expensive system at a nearby library uses "smart card" technology, with a computer chip controlling five levels of access to the Internet and filtering out chat rooms, gambling and cult sites, and pornography.

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you'd be surprised what people will try to look at in public, i remember being in college and walking by machines where guys were looking at obviously naked people on-screen, surprising but true. its also so easy to just stumble across things these days that i can understand trying to be very careful about what children and teens can view. people, specifically teenagers, DON'T have enough common sense to only view material they're legally allowed to view, that's the prob. there definitely are useful sites that would be filtered out with a "blanket" approach (those dealing with homosexuality or sexual abuse for example) but i don't think trying to implement some kind of system to filter certain content is necessarily a bad thing.

chris

Fig: You are totally right, in the aspect that most teens, do not have any clue what they are doing, or where their future is, let alone their sexual prefrence. Though I have two things to say about that.

1. Do you think it is a possibility that teens (not all) are becoming more confused, due to the lack of exploration they can experience? Or by the strict limits society creates, regarding topics like religion, and sexuality. Some teens might be confused because, they want somthing, but are afraid they would be committing a social fauxpas, and they deffinantly don't want to draw attention in a negative way.

2. The teens that aren't confused, but are too afraid to speak up at home or at school about things they want or feel, need some sort of outlet. Effective teen outreach programs are few and far between. The public library, could offer a sort of sanctuary, giving them a place to talk (online) about how they feel, and possibly gain acceptance in a way they previously thought impossible. The internet leads not only to online support groups, but it could also be a gateway to get involved in community groups.

I know it is not best to let the group suffer for the needs of few, but if you think about teenage suicides, a majority come from problems like depression. If teens had a way to talk about how they are feeling (sites like webmd.com ect..) they might gain insight into how to more effectivly combat their problems. Social acceptance is a large part of [most] teens lives. Acceptance doesnt nessicarily have to come from real life sources, teens that lack acess to alternate ways to gain acceptance run the risk of mental health problems.

This is only one of many possible scenarios that censorship could cause. I realize that it seems like an extreme, but it isn't uncommon to seek a place to be accepted online. IMHO, I do not truly see how censorship in a public library would stop a teen from acessing pornography, if he/she was truly trying to find it. ya dig?

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

quote:

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Libraries are not required to keep books on sadomasochism or issues of Penthouse magazine, and should not be allowed to include pornography online with public computers, officials said.

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'Not required to' and 'required not to'(to paraphrase) are two completely different things. The libraries are not require to, and therefore choose not to, stock porn and other such items. That doesn't mean that they should be forced to filter that out on public computers. Fact of the matter is they COULD stock porn if they wanted, they just choose not to.

I understand the need/want to protect children from some of the things that are online. I just don't think broadband filtering is the right way to do it. Instead of inclusive filters there should be exclusive filters... (i.e. a 'middlesex county' site wouldn't be filtered out but a 'middle sex county' site would be.) Exact match word filters are much more accurate in my opinion. Sure it wouldn't stop everything but it might make the search more difficult then it's worth and still leave a lot of information available that shouldn't be blocked in the first place.

Isn't that the way things are supposed to be done? Infringe as little on the freedom of the many to protect the few instead of protect the few at the expense of the many without regard for the needs of the many? The whole thing sounds like it's being done backwards to me.

GrythusDraconis
I admire a man who can budget his life around his pint of Guinness and I envy a man who's wife will let him. ME, inspired by Suho1004 here.

i have an 11 year old son and he gets on the internet everynight for an hour. he regularly visits a game cheats site. he once mistakenly mistyped the address and it took him to a cheaters porn site. since i supervise his net surfing, we were both very suprised and ended up talking about porn on the internet, porn magazines and porn vs. art. while, it turned out to be a good conversation, it's not one that i would have chosen for that particular time. i don't have any filters for our computer because i supervise him and he's not allowed on the internet when i'm not home. this works great right now, but he's not a teenager with raging hormones yet either. while i don't want him looking at porn....i'm more concerned with freaks in chat rooms and access to things like pipe bomb making and hate groups. i would hate to have to use a filter for the internet, but i think if it came right down to it...i'd probably use one. my son would have to give me reason to i guess. that's just in my home though. i think for public libraries, the smart card option they have up there is a good one. i think if there's no supervision for kids on the internet that there's got to be some sort of system that keeps questionable content out. the thing is, what's questionable to me, may not be to someone else. i don't feel that it's censorship really. children aren't allowed to see R rated movies without an adult....so why should they be able to surf the net with no limits without an adult??

Thats a good point, I can't think up much of a rebuttle (somone that agrees with me feel free to jump in). It would be nice to have children work on an honor system, but they dont. I also like the idea of having a children's section in the library where yes, the computers are filtered, and if they need help with homework and a site was filtered, then they could have staff on the payrole to help them, or they could just ask a librarian. I don't see why some kids are so reluctant to ask for help, I know I used to be like that, fiercely independant. I still am, but now I think I realize my limits, and know when I need to ask for help. But I still think that censorship in a public library is flawed, seriously flawed. I understand the need to shield children from unapropriate material (I totally agree with the pipe bombs, hate groups ect). The only reason those websites are helpful is for research papers, ect, unfortunately that isn't the circumstance in many cases. Anyways, good point.

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

soem good points xRuleith, and i agree to an extent. i'll agree that teens are probably more confused now than ever, but i think its more due to too many choices via the mainstreaming of things like homosexuality. did you know its trendy to be homosexual in teenagers, especially in girls? i've heard of arguments like 'if you haven't tried it then how do you know, you might like it.' i can very easily see a socially ostracized guy or girl who just doesn't fit in and feels lonely exploring an alternative sexuality, finding acceptance, and deciding that that's how they 'are'.

this is more a societal observation, not really having anything to do with the censorship issue i realize. on that i feel there's nothing wrong with "smart" censoring of pornographic and cult-related material (and i agree with lacuna's reasoning on all this). would it completely stop someone from seeking out pronographic material if they wanted to? probably not, but its sort of like putting an alarm on your car; it doesn't mean its not going to get stolen, but hopefully its enough to make the thief think twice about doing it

chris

The way I see it, it's pretty natural for (at least male) teenagers to seek out porn no matter how much hassle there is. If I'm a parent, am I going to make it as hard as possible for my hypothetical son? Sure, absolutely. Not because I think he shouldn't have porn, exactly, but because I think that having to sneak it is a vital part of adolescence. I guess it falls into the category of "when I was your age, I had to walk uphill through ten miles of snow to get a beat-up old copy of Penthouse!"

I agree, I know in school, the girls all think its cool to be "bi" [bisexual]. I think this is one of the most idiotic ideas, I have ever seen. Changing your sexuality to fit in, is lame, and you know at age 14, you don't know what your sexual orientation is, or I know most teens don't, nomatter how much they think they do, eveyrthing is subject to change. I figure its best to let everyone know now, I am 14. Making me probably one of the youngest members here. Yes, that means I AM younger than InSiDeR.
[sarcasm]
DL and DG, dont flame me for being young!
[/sarcasm].
(sorry had to slip that one in) I figure I have a fairly good idea what goes on in a teens mind considering I am one. Then again, I can't say everyone is like me so :\.
Anyway, I have been thinking, and I think that.. (warning on-comming rant I wouldnt read past here unless you are really interested... x.x) in Lacuna's case, your child obviously knows what's wrong and write, and you obviously trust him with the internet, I dont see why you wouldn't let him have un-restricted acess, if you are letting him have acess at all. I mean, parents should be instilling good values in their kids, and yes I realize, all people, can loose sight of those values at times, but i'm thinking in the big picture. Lacuna, I have a question for you, rather than shield your child from things like hate groups, homophobia, and racism, why not educate him yourself, and possibly view some of the more appropriate websites (official sites ect, things without vulgarity) on the topics. Confusing kids, yes comes from to many choices, and also because nobody ever told them about these things, and wether they were right or wrong. I think that teenagers end up 'hating' (as all teens do) there parents for being overbearing, and intruding into their lives, but it's obvious that the parents only want the best for their kids. I know I realize that now, and I have become more tolerant of the questions from my parents (What, When, Who, Where), because I understand their concern for me. Maybe if we could teach kids the same sort of values, but this all seems so unrealistic. I understand that the type of censorship is obviously not meant about kids like Lacuna's, but about the kind that have no morals ect, and well I personally see that as the fault of the parents. The parents were not ready to take on the responsibility, of a child, and educate him in proper moral's ect. If parents can't show a child love, and put him on the right path they shouldnt be having kids, I seriously wouldnt mind nuetering people like that. I absolutley cannot stand to see all the abuse that goes on this world, and I hear about it nightly on the program LoveLine. God, the state of people really angers me, and I can't do a damn thing about it. What is so hard about NOT beating your children, and not molesting your 9 year old daughter, WHY do people have to do these stupid things. It creates a cycle, because then the kids if they are girls grow up to mary abusive guys that will do it to their daughters, and if it was a male on male thing, it can profoundly alter their sexual prefrance, and social life. Why does all this happen? because people are evil, to the core, when left to our own devices, all we will do is try to preserve ourselves, while hurting eveyrone else around us. I suppose that is what I have gathered from the bible, is the fact that nothing made by man, is trustworthy, and that nothing made by man, will ever be anything, when scrutinized but evil. If requested I will post the text tommarow [if you are interested] Agh, excuse this totally off topic post, but I had to say that someplace, where better than my own thread.
[/rant]


-Ruleith

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

I have to disagree with some of these points that have been made.

I am a "teen," and I don't find myself confused about my sexual preferance (I'm straight) or my sexuality.

I don't look at porn, although I have in the past, and regret it.

The reason that I don't is because I have self control. It's not that I don't want to, but I know that it's not good for me.

I think that the thing lacking in todays society is self control and knowing whats best for you. Then following through with that.

[This message has been edited by counterfeitbacon (edited 03-06-2003).]

agreed, self control is seriously lacking in today's society, I'm in the same boat as you with the porn, I totally regret that stuff. =\

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

First of all, kudos cfb. That's a mighty good amount of common sense. Unfortunatly, not everyone at your age (or even mine, hehe) have that much common sense.

Second, Lacuna. Be careful of some of those 'cheat sites'...esp. some Clan stuff...like MyGot. You could check that site out (but be warned, it's pretty sick...and racial as all get out).

And there is a big difference, between protecting, and limiting. Some stuff out there is definitely of an Adult nature, and some of it even illegal.


WebShaman

I dunno, I look at porn, I don't feel ashamed to say so, either. I don't think it's (for the most part) unhealthy or wrong to do so, but I do believe that children shouldn't have access to it. If this means putting blockers on public computers, by all means... in my opinion.

Though for the life of me, I couldn't fathom scopin' the stroke stuff online in a public library... that's just tacky.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

I think that it is devastating to people in the long run. My run-in with porn happened last year, and it got totally out of control. Not something that I generally like to talke about, because I'm pretty ashamed of it. I never got caught, but its one of those things that nags at me...

I think that it is degrading to woman in general.

CFB, I totally hear ya man...

I am totally about respecting women, and I can not see how looking lustfully at their bodies and fantasizing over them is at all respectful... Even though they have neked pictures up, and they may be scumie people, they are still human beings and they still deserve r-e-s-p-e-c-t.

I think I have been scared for life by one popup on day a while back... It really made me step back and wonder how people could be so crule and twisted... it was truly a hidious sight, i only saw it for a second but it will remain in my thoughs for the remainder of my life. Truly, Truly Saddening.

and another thing... it ALWAYS leaves you wanting more... you see a little, you need to see more... and more... and more... more explicit, more dirty... more. Ya *never* get satisfied. You never see enough. I Guarantee it.



                                   

Once again, I bid the whole thing down to personal preferences. Allow me to put my foot in my mouth...

I don't think it's degrading to women to simply use pictures as material to give the ol' monkey some shine. I see it as material, I don't wonder why she allowed the photos to be taken, I don't know what her favorite book is, and I honestly don't care if she's had a bad upbringing and led to this. It's just a picture, pixels and shades of pink. I'm not in love with her, I'm certainly not lusting over her because nine times out of ten, I'm wrapped up in my own personal little fantasy involving real life people...

... perhaps I'm expressing too much too openly ...

I certainly appreciate and accept other people's points of view of the subject, and there's good value to a lot of arguments for the immoralization of pornography on the internet. I too have stumbled upon things that I simply didn't want to see, and can't forget... and it's a shame that such things are being done and promoted, but it all boils down to diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks. I really have to right to say that this pr0n is good and this pr0n is bad, I just simply choose not to do anything about it or with it.

Izzy, you do speak the truth though. It's an addiction, and a fierce one to start out. A friend of mine from middle school explained it as a ladder... you take a step up on rung and it's the greatest thing in the world... until you realize that there's a nastier rung right above it. I, however, have been able to find my niche in the ladder and prefer to stay right where I'm at, having seen what's both above and below.

I'm certainly not advocating that everyone run out and look up as much as they can, like I stated earlier, it's all a matter of personal preference. If you find that you like it, kudos and congrats... if not, just the same.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

The other side of the story sounds reasonable too, and I can clearly see where your coming from.

I'm a bit confused about your last statement, though. You say: "If you like it." Do you mean, feel that porn is acceptable and non-degrading etc or do you mean: Do you like to wack it. Of course, it is an addiction because you like it, and you wan't more and more. It produces dopeamine in the brain, just like a drug, for example: Crack Cocaine.

You say that your not addicted though. I challenge you, don't look at it for a month, and see how hard it is.

"scopin' the stroke stuff" ....that cracked me up! good one

ok...on to more serious stuff....

in our home, there is no topic that is off limits or taboo. my son and i (i'm a single parent) have ongoing conversations about sex, sexuality, racism, homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, abuse, politics, war...etc. it's not like i sit him down and ramble on and then that's the end of it....if he has questions about 'whatever' or i see/hear something that i think is important, then we bring it up and discuss it right there and then. i just don't believe that at 11, my son is equiped to deal with some of the things that are on the internet. nor are the majority of young teens. porn is the least of my worries. web sites of hate groups and perverts aren't there to provide friendly information....they are there to recruit people. sites like those usually prey on young people because they're vunerable.....because they don't fit in or feel like they belong.....but you can darn well bet that these sites and the people who frequent them, are more than willing to befriend a 'lost youngster' and show them a better way/more fun way.....so young people are more apt to buy into that garbage because they will finally fit in somewhere and have people that want to 'teach' them new things.....expand their horizons. i don't worry about this in my home because i surf the net with him....but if i thought for a second that he could go to the library and access these sites....he wouldn't go to the library. if he wants to do a report about the kkk, he can use an encyclopedia and/or have me help him get information off of the internet.

ws...thanks for the heads up...but he only goes to one cheat site...and it's just cheats for his gameboy/playstation games. i've checked it out (was actually looking for cheats myself lol).

i don't have a problem with porn....i don't think sex should be seen as something dirty. but it's for adults....i don't want my son lookin at it until he's older.....but i don't cover his eyes if there's breasts on the tv screen.

CFB: I was refering to simply viewing it for your own personal pleasure. Finding something immoral and wrong are just reasons to back up a stance on something
As for addiction, I fully admit that it's got me, there's no contest there. Just as cigarettes have claimed my lungs, pornography has... you know where I was going with that one. But putting it down for a month? As hard (har har) as that sounds, I'm sure it's possible, it's just a matter of willpower. Just like trying to stop smoking cigarettes... the physical act of restraint is a lot easier to imagine than the mental aspect of it, which is where addiction lies. And round and round we go... wee! I think I'll try pulling a '40 days and 40 nights' deal, prove to myself that I'm not as addicted as I really am. Denial is lovely, isn't it?

Lacuna: That there's parenting. *thumbs up* I was raised with rather open lines of communication between my parents and I, and although it was never encouraged, was let known early on that the myths about it (blindness, hairy palms, facing eternal damnation, etc) are just that. Around eighteen or so they stopped worrying about me being on the net and just sortta let me do my thing my way and didn't involve themselves with a factor of my life that, quite frankly, doesn't involve anyone except myself. Props to watching your boy on the net, too, that's a mighty smart move to make in my opinion.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

quote:

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i don't have a problem with porn....i don't think sex should be seen as something dirty. but it's for adults

-- Lacuna

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Exactly.

Take it or leave it. I personally have nothing against p0rn...I used to view it quite a lot...in my younger days. These days, I find it quite...boring actually. Reality is much more exciting...and real. Since living in Germany, I've come to actually like the laid-back attitude to nudity, p0rn, and openess about sex. I have found that because of this, p0rn becomes much less of a thrill...it's just there. So as for the addicting part...nope, I don't see this. But then, I can't speak for everyone.

*Shrugs*

Someone who feels they are addicted, really needs to get out more, and experience reality, IMHO. It's much better.

But whatever...different strokes, for different folks

Dragging this back more on topic - the British House of Parliament put in screening software recently and it completely blocked an email about an upcoming sex offences bill and such screening will always cut out information that is required (sexual health, etc.). It was a recent problem at my local library (again people were surfing porn sites in clear view of the front desks - what happens are people walking home, pop in for an Agatha Christie and a quick view of some flesh??) and it did strike me as a rather rude abuse of the free resources.

I'd suggest they make the library card a magnetic swipe card and it logs the sites you visit to your records (as your lending is logged) - that should mean you wouldn't need filters but could track any abuse of the system.

[edit: oh and xRuleith - InSiDeR was never 'flamed' (although I think 'had the error of his ways pointed out to him in no uncertain terms' would be better) for being young - it was because he was (?) acting like an idiot]

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Emps, I know that fact exactly. It just so happens, before posting on here, ive followed the forums for a few weeks, just checking it out, I followed his ridiculous posts completely insulting DG, and DL, what I said was out of pure humor. It was a joke at InSiDeR's expense, sorry, my humor is a bit dry;

Q)what's the difference between illegal and unlawful?
A)one's a sick bird

Q)what was william jennings bryan's favorite band
A)bi-metalica

ect ect.. I know, but I can't help it. (the wjb one is US only, or go google for the "cross of gold" speech, if you really want to get that horrible joke)

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

Just want to point out that Izzy's comment about porn being an addiction requiring an ever-greater "fix" is fallacious. If all sex offenders view porn, are all porn-viewers sex offenders?

Some people get addicted to drugs, or gambling, or video games, or even Internet forums like this one; pornography is just another thing that can work that way. In none of the aforementioned cases is the addiction universally uncontrollable; and obviously pornography isn't as damaging as other vices, or virtually everyone in the world would be ... whatever negative consequence you're trying to cite, I think I missed that part.

What I'm saying is that I can drink beer until I get a pleasant buzz, without having any urge to go out and buy a bottle of Everclear so I can give myself alcohol poisoning. And I can view some pornography that's at my comfort level, without needing to gradually work up to the midgets and farm animals. The idea that escalation is inevitable is simply wrong. It's wrong about any potentially addictive behavior, and it's wrong about this. (Anecdotal evidence doesn't count; the people you notice are the ones who succumbed. But virtually every male who's grown up in a media culture has seen porn, most of them without going nutty, so you have to consider everyone you know to be the "silent majority.")

You who've said that you won some moral battle against pornography -- good. Clearly you felt that pornography was wrong, and your desire to look at it was evil. I'm glad you remain within the light, and I'm certain you're going to Heaven. That said, I don't believe that what's good for you is automatically good for anyone else. I'd greatly prefer that people make their own choices here.

Of course, as WS implied, those "choices" are largely a matter of social conditioning. In a more open society, who's to say you wouldn't have such strong feelings about pornography's wrongness... while at the same time, not feeling the same (destructive?) urge to look at it?

I'm not sure what the major objection is. If it's just a general lack of respect for women, many cultures have that, even very straitlaced ones. Although obviously it's possible to find studies biased one way or another, I doubt the preponderance of objective evidence will show any proven positive or negative net effect from pornography consumption (production is another matter -- most people in that industry have psychological or emotional issues which are ill served by their career choice. Even then, the word "choice" remains valid.)

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 03-07-2003).]

Got something against midgets and farm animals now?

Bravo, PT. I'd stand and clap, but it's a BBS and I can't without using asterisks or adding it to the end of a /me statement. On the whole 'comfort level' thing, it gets down to being a personal choice and level of temptation restraint. Like I stated earlier, I've found my niche and prefer to stay there, it's what makes me happy and I'm happy staying where I am. This by no definition means I'm better or worse than anyone else, I just know what I'm comfortable looking at and what I don't find attractive.

Though I'll stand by my earlier convictions of self prescribed addiction to pornography. The cancer sticks, the peace pipe, the bottle, the naughty bits... all controlled levels of addiction in my life. Doesn't mean I'm a stronger person, I wouldn't have let myself become addicted to them if I were, but I'm not clammoring for porn 24/7 and suckin' down three packs a day with a fifth, either, so that's gotta say something, right?

On the up and up, I'm going for 40 days (yes, yes, just like the movie...) without porn, to see what kind of withdrawal properties I experience. Perhaps I'll not want to look at it anymore after that, or maybe it'll all just go south and I'll start looking at donkies a little differently. I like the prospect of being able to go without for a long period of time in the name of self discovery, it's really something that I haven't done yet. And I'm keeping a journal, in case anyone (doubtful) wants to read it when all is said and done.

Good topic, a bit off track, but good topic.

njuice42 Cell # 551
icq 957255

i think that'll be a nifty lil experiment there, njuice. i would be interested in reading it when you're done.



[This message has been edited by Lacuna (edited 03-08-2003).]

Yes, me too, make a thread, after lent is over, I suppose, or when you buckle (if you do, I'm rooting for ya man).

I'm going to the moon, I cant stand it here anymore.

Personally, I find that pornography consumption is self-limiting. The tender of sensibility should skip this post: the point of watching porn is for sexual stimulus. You care about it until you've concluded a certain action; and then you suddenly just quit caring for however long. Most men average once a day, so there you go -- the average guy is "addicted" to porn for fifteen minutes a day. (Ladies, that 'fifteen-minute' figure doesn't refer to what we get up to with you, so don't despair.)

When we're "off the cycle," so to speak, the interest is purely academic. We don't normally get to see nekkid women, so if there is one, we take a look because we're curious.

The people who paper the inside of a birdcage with porn clippings and wear it like a hat (true story from the news) are mentally broken. That's not a normal use of erotic material. In fact, if you're watching porn for an "ever-increasing amount of time" each day, there's probably something wrong with your wiring -- or you're watching it for its artistic merit, in which case you should probably read a good book instead.