Topic awaiting preservation: Has anyone ever heard of "Wicca"? (Page 2 of 2)

Sure it is, you just call it "religious fervor"

Moth, robes are comfy though... you gotta admit... yours hooded or no? If it werent so frowned upon i might wear mine all the time. just for the sheer joy and traditionalism of it. then again, i'd have a staff too if it weren't considered a weapon

Sure it is, you just call it "religious fervor"

Hee hee hee

Hey baby, want to start a big religious movement?

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I'm between robes at the moment. I haven't had a need for them since I'm no longer part of a practicing coven. I had three at one time. Two red. One grey. No black one. One of the red ones had a detachable hood. That robe was destroyed when the apartment air conditioning flooded my closet. (Don't ask) The grey one was my favorite but I outgrew it when I started to put on weight. (I weighed only 135 lbs when I made it. I now weigh around 190 lbs.)

I've always thought black robes was so cliche`d. Plus many people who wear black seem to saying to the world, "Hey, look how witchy I am." Bleah!

Red robes were the color of the life force so it appealed to me.

Grey robes implied neutrality and that I was willing to bend the "an harm none" rule that seems to paralyze so many wiccans when it comes to magic work. I annoyed alot of the fluffy white lighters in the Athens, Ohio area.




[This message has been edited by Moth (edited 05-14-2003).]

I had a green one, made of a silky material, i've recently switched to blue. I think after a while i'm just going to start wearing it full time. Not to gain attention, just as a part of tradition..

I never liked the idea of robes... mostly because it reminds me of the stagnant tradition of the christian church. I want to see Wicca progress and grow with it's following. It really is one of the few religions around today that has that potential. It has the chance to not get so mired in dogma and tradition that it alienates most of it's following. I see no reason to follow traditions for traditions sake. Give me a reason. If it isn't necessary... let it go, so long as the main tenets of the belief are held paramount. Especially since such meaningless traditions make WIcca more abhorent to the understanding of the masses. I'm not here to flaunt my beliefss to anyone... nor do I want to hide them. I just want to be accepted like everyone else. Unfortunately it is much like the pink tu-tu wearing nutbag that prances about in Gay pride marches. It's the loud wierd ones that get the attention... meanwhile the suit wearing businessman is over looked who has actually found a way to make his lifestyle work in real life.

Well damn.... [/RANT]

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

I only encountered real hatemongers against witchcraft among the bullies on high school, and they'd pick on anyone different so that was pretty obvious.

Personally the only wiccans I've met so far were mostly very gentle insecure people with lots of childhood problems, with two exceptions. I've also met the other kind, the evil types, but they too, were mostly gentle insecure people with lots of childhood problems who tried to compensate their lack of a grasp on their real lives with spooking each other on how powerful they were.
I tried being a wicca but I did conclude that there's really no such thing as trying. Either you are one, or you're not. I'm not. But I do think that the modern wiccan movement is something very positive because it promotes awareness of your surroundings

edit: I always thought that "magick" was the source for the sorcerors (who draw power from within themselves) as opposed to "magic" which is the forces of nature on which witches draw.




[This message has been edited by Fey (edited 05-14-2003).]

'Magick' is just one of those terms that witches have created for themselves so that they can feel more special. It's a pointless statement of separation, and it isn't neccessary to boot. When you speak of it... does it sound different? Well... no. A 'K' isn't going to change the connotation or denotation of the word.

I don't believe that is the attempt when witch says 'magick'. All magic is energy, it doesn't matter where it comes from. Within or without it's the same energy and therfore needs no other name.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

So would it be considered bad to draw energy from within yourself, instead of relying on the energy of nature?

No, not at all... Energy is energy. If I draw on myself to enervate my will (i.e. cast a spell) it is a different sort of thing than drawing from the life around me. Besides that... we're all part of nature. Drawing on ones own energy is drawing on nature's energy.

I tend to be an internalist as far as spells go. Drawing on myself allows the natural world to replenish me without tapping it directly. Just my preference. I'm very much for not interfering with things that might not want to be interfered with. Drawing on the life around me...even in small part feels like I'm taking something away... when I'm really just trying to give... Does that make sense? I'd much rather give of myself... the only sacrifice I have the right to make, then take the energy of something else for my own purposes.

Another reason that I don't draw from that which is around me is that I can only handle so much energy... I can only draw what I have from myself, thusly staying within my basic limits. If I draw from the wealth of energy around me I can very easily lose control and be overwhelmed by it. Especially if I'm in a powerful spot.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

quote:

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I see no reason to follow traditions for traditions sake. Give me a reason. If it isn't necessary... let it go, so long as the main tenets of the belief are held paramount.

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Interesting. I hope it wouldn't surprise you too much to know that there are still some Christians who feel that same way about their faith

Thanks very much for the info GD, bodhi23, and Moth. This is very interesting. GD, it sounds like this is a relatively new religion. What determines who is and isn't a Wiccan? I mean, do you just make up your own version of Wicca or is there some standard. I guess what I would really like to know is what are the main tenets of the belief? In your own words.

Perhaps I should ask, what exactly would you tell a person if they told you they wanted to join your faith?

I'm running on here but you said:

quote:

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Only one rule. Do as you will as it harms none. This rule covers everything. There is the Threefold Law which is really more of a belief then a Rule that basically states that any wrong you visit on another will be returned to you three times.

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My Xian faith definitely fulfills the one rule you mention but not the Threefold Law. Does that mean I qualify as a Wiccan too? Can a Wiccan believe in the God of the bible and still be a Wiccan in the opinion of Wiccans?

Sorry if any of that sounds strange but I'm just letting my mind blurt out questions

. . : slicePuzzle

I always thought there's two mainstream movements in Wicca: the Alexandrian and the Gardnerian and people who follow these tend to do at least the main 8 yearly rituals the same way. There's also the possibility of being an "ecclestical Wiccan" or Solitary, which means you don't stick with a coven but go your own way and make up your own rules.

But this is a very crude dividing. Maybe because freedom and equality is highly praised among the Wiccans that it is hard for one Wiccan to decide if someone else is a Wiccan too. I'm not convinced if anyone is qualified to say "Yes, YOU are a Wiccan but no, you other person, you are not."

A Wiccan could believe in God. But I'd think it highly unlikely s/he would only believe in the father god because part of the beliefs are about the equality of the male/female principle, the Goddess as Mother of All next to the God as Father of All. And I don't think that the Bible God can live up to that, since the Bible is kinda male-oriented. Wiccans probably have far less trouble with accepting Jesus in their beliefs.
(the Irish catholicism is probably the best exemple of how a wiccan-related culture and the catholic faith merged)

ah..this was another rather useless addendum :/ Anyhow, I have a question too. Is Wiccan as far as to be considered an institutionalised faith or is it still a chain of ideas and beliefs?

Bugs: It really depends what that person wants to get into, but the biggest suggestion that I can give is 'Do your research and decide for yourself if this is what you are really willing to do.' I come from a personal standpoint on this. I work half alone, and half with a teacher. I learn and research what I can, and work with my gifts that I can give into my faith. The Major questions would be 'Would you be comfortable doing this work anywhere in the world? Would you be willing to put up with the criticizm if and when you mention of your faith to others?' There is the matter of some people act negatively towards others that are not of their faith. Then again, that comes with all faiths of the world.

Also is the person physically or.... the big one... mentally strong enough to handle the said faith? Sometimes religious or counseling practices can be physically and mentally taxing on a person if there is ritual or spiritual work to be done. Again, it depends on what particular faith that person chooses and what work that certain person does. If that person shows that they can, other than just saying yes, then maybe their life is meant for that faith. I my opinion... you have to have the heart to follow it wholly. With all of this, I am speaking from my own experience and these are the questions that I would definately ask if someone were to follow the path that I walk of the Native Shaman.

[added] Yes. Wiccan is a recognized religion in the USA. As far as a chain of beliefs, that is still debated a bit. (My own opinion on that too.)

[This message has been edited by Wolfen (edited 05-16-2003).]

Wolfen, this surprised me...'Native Shaman'...could you maybe expand on this? What exactly, is this? What does it entail?

It comes very close to a term that my people use...I would like to know more.

I'm curious about this "Native Shaman" thing too. Care to elucidate?

I don't think that someone who really is a Christian, could also be considered Wiccan. (for the record, the religion is Wicca, a person who practices it is considered Wiccan) My reason for this remark is because of the deities involved. Wiccans believe in a two-part deity - a god and goddess. Most Wiccans will tell you that all gods are one god, and all goddesses one goddess, and they consider that the 2 are 1.

However, the belief doesn't really translate well the other way. The Christian belief is that there is One God, the Father Almighty (who is also His Son, Jesus of Nazareth, and the Holy Spirit, interchangeably). I suppose, for the sake of argument, one could say that the goddessaspect is implied through the existence of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of Mary, the Mother of Jesus. But then that wouldn't really be true Christianity, would it? But Mary is not considered to be a goddess, and neither is the Holy Spirit. I don't think that a devout Christian would be able to reconcile that belief with what the Bible says.

But I've said it before, and I'll say it again: most religions, when you come right down to the meat of the subject, are teaching the exact same things. Just using different stories, myths, and dogmas to get the message across.

When I was practicing Wicca, and someone asked me about what the beliefs were, I always answered this: That Wicca is a nature-based religion that draws from spiritual ideas going all the way back into the beginning of time. Wiccans honor both a male and female deity, who are referred to as the god and goddess, and given names appropriate to the tradition, time of year, and purpose of invocation. And then quote the Rede and the Threefold Law. Beyond that, beliefs are limited to the tradition you are following.

Alexandrian and Gardenerian are the biggest two, but there is also Dianic Witchcraft, and the Fellowship of Isis, both "women only" traditions, but they still consider themselves to be Wiccan. And Salem, MA has their very own witch, Laurie Cabot (she's really extreme, but mostly for marketing reasons)...
Basic practices and seasonal observances are very similar in all traditions, the verbiage of the rituals tends to differ, as well as the amount of external religious influence (i.e.: Egyptian, Golden Dawn, OTO, etc...). A solitary wiccan can do rituals any way s/he wants to - provided the Rede and Threefold Law are followed. There are many other traditions. It's been a long time since I've looked them up, but they exist.

Most Wiccan covens can be considered legal churches now, but that has only be a decade or so in existence. When I was practicing, it was still in debate.

The biggest issue for solitary witches is the initiations. There are 3 degrees in witchcraft, with the first degree being the noviate, and the 3rd being High Priest or Priestess. Generally, initiations are received from the HP or HPS of the coven one practices with. Who initiates a solitary witch? If you're truly solitary, you can confer upon yourself the 1st and 2nd degrees (or, the God/dess sonfers the degree on you), but the actual 3rd degree rite requires the assistance of another witch, and can't technically be done for oneself. However, the rules tend to be very flexible, and so you could conceiveably do the rite alone. The only difficulty comes in when you're trying to get the recognition from a traditional coven. If you're truly solitary, I suppose it wouldn't matter.


Bodhi - Cell 617

Sorry Bugs... you snuck in there on me. Really the only things that you need to believe in are the Rede "An it harm none, Do as you will" or whichever direction you'd like to read it, and a belief in magic. There isn't any need to practice it, IMHO, but it IS there. My understanding of the God and Goddess is that they are what our consciousness can deal with. In a Xian's mind... they may well have melded them into one being (or three). So yes... It seems, for the most part you 'qualify' as a wiccan. Usually the resistence to being accepted as a Wiccan is based on the other religions beliefs. Most Christians can't see believing in a faith that touches on a world that they are told doesn't exist, or shouldn't exist and should be stamped out. For clarification, ESP, telekinesis, and telepathy are some of the 'magics' that Wicca believes in. Nothing particularily odd but things that have been experienced by many and proven to exist (if not explained) by science. Some of the spells that are cast are manipulations of energy in ourselves and/or others. Not unlike acupuncture/pressure and other such things. Through contact and mental manipulation we can ease pain, calm nerves and the like. Almost like a re-alignment. Ask my fincee. I try and put a little extra into my massages and I can also take her bad dreams away. Dreamscaping someone elses dreams is more difficult but... possible. A point, one that I've let pass a few times. Someone here seems to think our avoidence of harm is unnecessary and stands in the way of who we are. I can't agree with this. I think that statement goes against the only paramount rule that Wicca has. What I've done with my fiancee and others, is done with permission. I'm not going to help someone when they don't want it. In truth that help may be more of a hindrence to them in the future.

Here is a link that might shed some more light on the topic of Xian Wiccans. Can a person be both a Wiccan and a Christian?

I've dealt with Cabot before. I don't like her. She epitomizes what I don't like about most new entries to Wicca. After speaking with her... I just can't see her faith being as true as it once was. I think she's after fame and money now. Fritz and Wren of Witch's Voice used to work for her... as did my Ex-Wife. They all left for reasons of disagreement and personal dislike. At least that is my understanding.

As an aside... I'm really, really trying to keep tabs on this thread. Keep asking questions you want answered. If it seems I've missed some... please, ask again. There is a bit of a crossover to this other thread Bewitched =) that InI started. I'm not sure if I'm really involved or not but... it seems to be more on the meditative side of things.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

[This message has been edited by GrythusDraconis (edited 05-19-2003).]

GD (and pos. others) has cast spells - have you observed any actual physical changes due to casting a spell (which don't have a simpler explanation) or is it more of form of visualisation so you can channel your energies towards a goal (or am I missing the point)?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

physical? i've never tried... i dont cast much.... just meditate... bless and be me and one with nature... a lot of times the whole spellcasting thing is blown out of proportion, and to tell you the truth i've never seen anyone cast a spell to harm another person, as its not part of wiccan belief (thus threefold)... there are lots of healing spells, and i've never seen one performed or performed one myself, so you'd have to ask bodhi or gd or wolfen (because wolfen is a shaman) ... and uhh ... webshaman.... is a shaman .... *cries*



[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-19-2003).]

[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-19-2003).]

Physical changes like lightning bolts and glowing eyes? Levitating like in Chramed (not a typo) the movie? No. Things like that I suppose can happen but most of that sort of thing... I guess would be a visualization for my own benefit. When I look at my fiancee, lets say... I can usually see her tension. Almost like watching auras. Healthy (to me) is blue. Unhealthy areas are red. And it isn't like a visual thing either. Usually I build a 'map' of her back when I move my hands over her skin. The visualization is basically finding the 'lay line' for lack of better terminology between myself and the 'thing' that I am trying to do for the person... or myself I suppose. Sifting through the tapestry of life between myself and my fiancee. Finding the thread that will let me ease her tension... typically by realeasing it through myself. I draw off her pain and release it from myself. I am a conduit but if I hold it for too long I keep it. Then she gets to fix my back... or whatever =) Is it just my touch and knowledge? Maybe. It's a simpler explaination. I just happen to see it differently. It could just be that all massuses are doing this to some extent. Who's to know?

If you mean do my 'spells' have effect. Then yes I can usually see that people are more relaxed or feeling better or sleeping better or whatever it is that I've asked them to let me help them with. I hesitate to call what I do spellcraft but it falls under the Wiccan definition of magic... so... hmm... My fiancee slept well for the first time after I tried to help her with her dreams. Was that me? I dunno. Maybe my offer helped her and I'm just wishing it was so. Could be. I believe otherwise, however. Regardless, the achieved effect was the same. She slept better.

Oh something I thought I'd mention. The Threefold Law works both ways... Any 'good' that you do a person is returned to you threefold as well. It's just mostly brought up in the derogatory terms because most people ask what stops us from doing 'bad' things if there is no 'punishment.'

The Threefold Law is less a punishment then it is a checkpoint. A place to stop and REALLY look at what you are about to do. Understand what the consequences are for doing that thing... and accepting the risks to yourself for doing it even though you can see repercussions. I myself... have never experienced the Threefold Law... and I'm not the most perfect person in the world. I think it is the conscience of Wicca. That ethereal figure shaking their finger at you when you know you're being bad. There is no (or should be no) accidental wrongness caused by a Wiccan. They should know what they are doing... or at the very least. understand that they are soley responsible for their actions.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

i dont know if GD is agreeing with me or correcting me.. hmpf haha

GD: Thanks for the answer. You said:

quote:

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If you mean do my 'spells' have effect. Then yes I can usually see that people are more relaxed or feeling better or sleeping better or whatever it is that I've asked them to let me help them with.

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And when I was asking about physical effects I was really after something quantifiable but that in itself might be my error in trying to over rationalise things. Hmmmmmmmmm......

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

basically, when you cast spells, your hands dont glow like fire, your eyes down brighten like you see in the movies, things dont light up.. its really a very personal, inner experience, forgot you said quantifiable... could you pick a different word?



[This message has been edited by Sanzen (edited 05-19-2003).]

Sanzen, I'm not a real Shaman of my people...the way to becoming a true Shaman among my people is long, hard, and demands a life-long devotion. If I have given you the impression that I am really a Shaman, then I truly apologize, for that is incorrect (and would be wrong of me in any regards).

I'm very interested in hearing where these rituals and spells come from...what are their sources? In that, I mean, are they written down? And where were they originally copied from? I'm mainly interested in the origins of said things.

Another thing I would like to point out : dealing with spirits, and rituals (maybe spells, as well) is very dangerous to the uninitiated and the unlearned - and shouldn't be messed around with. It is no joking matter. My people have created rituals over thousands of years, through trial and error. Only an experienced and learned practitioner should attempt them. My people don't often do this, as dealing with spirits is tricky, at best. A Shaman only does this when it is absolutely necessary - communing with Nature is one thing...and interpreting omens and signs as well...but actual contact and communication is a tricky and dangerous thing.

In my experience, some spells are written down and passed on, others are created as necessary to take advantage of the time and situation. Ritual is slightly different than spell. Spells are generally cast in rituals, but they don't have to be. More power is generated in ritual, than say, on the fly... but it would still work provided the intent is there.

GD seems to be focusing on healing magic, whereas I think what Emps is asking about is other types of spells. They work. It's not usually obvious exactly how they work, but they work. I still cast spells when one is necessary, even though I'm not a practicing witch anymore. I have a particularly good job hunting spell, actually, that I've used several times. It's a combination of several traditions and methods - but I've gotten my last 3 jobs using it...
And I have one or 2 protection spells (mostly just anti-negativity) that really come in handy. For the most part, I write my own stuff. I do sometimes borrow verbiage and structure from other written material, but usually, I come up with it on my own.
In a lot of cases, it's mostly your strength of focus and will that cause "magic" to happen - so if you're really focused, and have a lot of will, you don't even need to formulate a spell. It, like the robes and other accoutrements, is simply a tool to help you manipulate the energy that's already there. Like GD was saying about ley lines and auras...


Bodhi - Cell 617

Sorry if I've been unclear.

What I'm angling at is not some fancy movie style effects - prayers and spells can work but so does the placebo effect. So what I was wondering was if your spells had had results whih couldn't be explained so easily?

However, I am also open to the fact that being of an overly scientific mind perhaps I over analysing things and that if it works then why question it?

___________________
Emps

FAQs: Emperor

Well, none of that fancy hollywood stuff actually happens in magic... Even a real magician can do stuff with special effects, but that's not the magic part of it.

And you're perfectly right about the placebo effect. That's one of the reasons "magic" can't be proven. It doesn't work any better than chance when put to controlled tests. Scientists won't call it proven unless it can be shown to work consistently better than chance in repetative experiments.

So, in looking for scientific evidence of magic, you won't find any. But a true believer will tell you they don't need scientific proof...


Bodhi - Cell 617

Now that I'm reading this: lots of the effects that people associate with visual, physical magic-doers, like glowing blue eyes and flapping clothes and all, it sounds like the effects lightning would have on a person.
Maybe this image has come into existence because once, one day, someone was hit by lightning, for some reason channeled it, and blew up a building or a bunch of trees

Magic and electricity have lots of their symptoms in common. Some Wiccans, mostly the cyberwitches or neopagans or whatever they call themselves, took up electricity as an element in their spells, equal to air, water, fire and earth.

I have another question: the four elements as mentioned before: water, fire, air and earth, are tied to the four directions: north, south, east and west. But not everyone ties the same element to the same direction. Ever since I was little I tied it like this: north-air, east-fire, south-earth and west-water. Now sit back and think for yourself, how do you connect it?
Because it seems that the association differs from person to person.




[This message has been edited by Fey (edited 05-20-2003).]

In my Mexican culture, there are "curanderos" (curers) who are persons who deal with curing people of their ailments, be it physical, mental or dealing with direct problems people are having with their lives. This practice of curing is very popular with hispanics in the latin countries. These curanderos deal with good and evil forces and call upon both sides depending on a persons petitions or desires. This involves casting spells, astrology, tarot cards, praying, & the petitioner performing certain rituals to clear evil spells against them, like making a pilgrimage, etc. One very popular spell is "the ojo"( the eye). This is when a person is eyed intently or stared at and some kind of negative energy is released to them which could make them have a sickness given to them by the seer. The way to cure this spell is to crack an egg in a bowl, pray to God over it, put it under the bed of the sick person. If the egg cooks the person is cured and did have "the ojo". This is common practice for infants, because they are stared at and touched because of there innocence and cuteness. This all sounds very silly, but you would be surprised how many religious people believe in this form of magic power.

So many people deal with the spiritual powers beyond this world. I am reminded of Nancy Reagen too, when she consulted with an astrologer in advising her husband in political matters and his welfare.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 05-20-2003).]

You seem to have an awful lot of experience with things you ought not have experience with, according to your statements about your beliefs.

Interesting that.

I used to tie the elements to the cardinal directions but I stopeed doing that because it left out the most important one (to me) Akasha or spirit. So I orient mine against the pentacle instead. I 'organize' my pentacle according to my elemental balance. Spirit at the top, Earth in my right hand, Fire in my left hand, Water on the lower left and Air on the lower right. Pressed more for on the cardinals I would say earth is south, fire is north, air is east, and water is west. But that's just me.

Colors associated with different energies also vary from person to person. It's a comfort/personal expression of understanding. I hardly think there is an 'Only Way' for it to be.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Hmm... in all the traditions I ever studied, North was always associated with Earth. But whether you started the circle in the North, with Earth, or in the East, with Air was what was debatable.

The Spirit element was always invoked from above, the capstone to the 4 quarters. It was this way in both the Wiccan coven I studied with, as well as in the Quabbalistic traditions I participated in. Though I have seen the elemental pentagram used in various rituals...


Bodhi - Cell 617

GD

I never stated I believed in all of it. Just that it was prevalent in my culture.
It is against my belief to dabble in black magic, tarot cards, spells, etc. I never have contacted a palm reader, curandero, or ever dialed up psychic hotline, etc.

quote:

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I never stated I believed in all of it.

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Nor did I state that you did. I just mentioned that you seemed to have far more knowledge of it then is usually exhibited by those who don't believe in it. I found it interesting.

GrythusDraconis
"I'm sick of hearing that beauty is only skin-deep. That's deep enough. Who wants an adorable pancreas?" - Unknown

Oh.

OK.

But I do believe in the powers of darkness just as I believe in the power of goodness. I just would never attempt to open a door to it thru any cult or medium to the dark side.