Topic awaiting preservation: The Ten Commandments vs. America (Page 1 of 1)

The Ten Commandments vs. America

Your thoughtS? I retrieved the link from The Intellectual Activist.

Although I agree with the points set forth, the author loses points for using Ayn Rand as his philosophical foundation.

edit: And I notice that the entire site does the same: "The Intellectual Activist is especially dedicated to understanding and promoting the revolutionary ideas of the 20th-century novelist and philosopher Ayn Rand ? the great champion of the power of reason, the supreme value of the individual, and the unfettered liberty of a capitalist society."

edit: ("What," you might ask, "is his problem with Ayn Rand?" Well, maybe it's just the Rand adherents who creep me out. You know, people like this.)

Cell 1250 :: alanmacdougall.com :: Illustrator tips

[This message has been edited by Perfect Thunder (edited 01-09-2004).]

Who is Mr. Show? http://www.deism.com/counterrebuttal2.htm


[edit]

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("What," you might ask, "is his problem with Ayn Rand?" Well, maybe it's just the Rand adherents who creep me out. You know, people like this.)

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What? Too Hawkish?

[/edit]
______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...



[This message has been edited by UnknownComic (edited 01-09-2004).]

The deeper question is: can a nation of freedom, individualism and the pursuit of happiness be based on the Ten Commandments?

Yes. Definetly yes.

If we take a different view of the deeper theology of the Ten Commandments we might see this. I think some take the meaning of the Ten Commandments to be of the OT bible view. A God of wrath commanding his people to obey or be punished. The OT testament writers whose laws were written in stone conveyed this message to the chosen people and their generations up until the NT testament. In the NT of the bible, Christ comes to fulfill the laws as a living law that should no longer be thought of as written in stone but in the hearts of mankind. We no longer should see God as up there and we down here but in us. Yes, we look up to the skies as in "a who is or what is" in the wonder of it all, but the wonder is in us if we allow it to manifest itself in us. In Christian thought thur Christ, God lives & breaths in us, so we are the Ten commandements. We are to walk, talk and breath the law. If we separate ouselves from the law, we separate ourselves from God. How do we achieve obeying the laws of love? Thru the human person. The commandments are laws of love friendship. Meant to see God in the human person. I am the Lord thy God and have no other God before me. This means. Humans possess God in spirit, so don't put other idols before people. Pay attention to people because we are all of one body, one spirit. Treat one another well and love the Lord thy God in humanity. Don't take the name of the Lord thy God in vain. This means, don't take the human spirit for granted because it is God. People are of Gods goodness. Again treat humanity as you would want to be treated. Honor you parents, means love unconditionaly, even if they aren't perfect role models we are called to love them thru which God extended God. If they have turned thier back on God, God has not turned his back on them. They still possess God in them. As long as we love and honor we are fulfilling the law of love. Honor the sabbath means lets come together in christ as a community of belivers to become one with each other thru a communion of believers. Like lets stop and smell the roses and remember humankind is a reflection of who God is so get to know God thur people. Visit each other, socialize, enjoy each other because when we do this we show love. Don,t steal, kill, cheat, abuse, try to covet the human person goods and belongings because this shows love, respect & honor of the human person and your diginity in honoring the law of love. The Ten Commandments should also be thought of as social laws. And if we adhere to these laws which are God, its good for society as a whole in the US of A.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-09-2004).]

Perfect Thunder: Morally, I agree with Onkhar Gate. Rationally, I disagree.

Jade: I recommend you do a little more reading... The Ten Commandments. I dismiss all intepretations of the Bible and of the Ten Commandments unless they are literal--rational and objective. If "God" intended for "His" laws to be taken figuratively, "He" would have written it like so.

great links meta!

....seems like Jade forgot that universe does not rotate around Mr.Pope


[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-09-2004).]

Ruski
For your information this had nothing to do with Pope John Paul.
He is a very humble holy person. Take a shot at me, but why don't you leave him out of this. Pope John Paul was not on the mountain with Moses when the decalouge was given to the chosen people. The Pope only assist in guidence to keep the laws alive today in the hearts of mankind.

If "God" intended for "His" laws to be taken figuratively, "He" would have written it like so.

Metahuman,

What kind of statement is this? Are you for real? Give me something more concrete. Give me the rational meaning on
the emotion of "love" Explain why it exist? Why do you love your mother? Are you obligated to do so? Or if your married, why do you love your wife. Rationalize love if you deal only on your rational. If you are able to do so, then I might take you serious.

One thing I know is that man is a rational animal. He is a substance, corporeal, living and rational. But if you think logically, his animal nature is distinct in nature from his rationality, though they are inseparably joined during life in one common personality, metaphysically speaking. Explain this. When you think about this, each distinct nature cannot exist on its own. From what I have read, in the same way, so too man is not a body plus a soul, which would make him two individuals, but is a body, by reason of its union with the soul. Meaning that you could only be a human body if you posses a soul. Metahuman, do you acknowledge you have a soul? If not, are you considered a human body without one? What is your rational explantation on the soul? Does everybody need to have a soul?
I am only trying to make a point that the essence of the rational person exist only because it is substained by all the distinct characteristics that make it a being.

For God belivers, man was created in Gods image first spiritually speaking in Gods high dignity in spiritual nature, and then God formed man the physical body from the slime of the earth, to make it complete in its nature. An thus it becomes a living soul together with the body which makes man different from the brute. Thru this soul God endows intelligence to follow the law of its divine order. These laws of love are the commandents.





[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-09-2004).]

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What is the soul?

"Soul" is a blatantly overused term that conflates the following completely independent conceptual entities:

• Immortal soul: An entity generated by forces within the brain, which survives the destruction of the neurons that originally generated it, and is in some formulations intrinsically indestructible under the laws of the ultimate reality. (If this soul continues independent, internally generated cognition equalling the capabilities of a physical brain, someone has a lot of explaining to do to with respect to split-brain patients, lobotomy patients, amnesiacs, and other forms of brain damage.)
• Extraphysical soul: An entity which operates outside the laws of physics. (Strictly speaking this doesn't make logical sense, since anything that affects physical reality is part of physical law, but under some circumstances we might find it useful to separate that law into two parts - for example, if some physical patterns obey mathematical rules and others are totally resistant to rational analysis.)
• Weird-physics neurology: Neural information-processing that uses the "weird" laws of physics. "Weird" is any physical pattern not visible in everyday, macroscopic life, or any pattern which isn't Turing-computable. We generally don't use the word "soul" in discussing this possibility.
• Morally-valent soul: A physical entity representing the atomic unit of decision-making and moral responsibility. I'm reasonably sure this doesn't exist except as a high-level game-theoretical abstraction embodied as an "atomic" element of social cognition.
• Qualia: The basic stuff of conscious experience, redness of red, etc.
• Theological soul: A piece of God integrated into the human mind.
• Mind-state preservation: Let's say our descendants/successors invent a time machine (or a limited version thereof such as a "time camera") and read out everyone's complete neural diagram, memories, etc. at the moment of death. That would be one form of mind-state preservation; any immortal soul that preserved memories, or information from which memories could be reconstructed, would also count.
• Self-continuity: "If you go into a duplicator and two beings come out, which one is you? Is a perfect duplicate of your brain you? Does continuity of identity require continuity of awareness or just continuity of memories?" Et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseam. I don't think such questions have real answers; or rather, the answer is whatever you decide it is. Though John K Clark's decision is worth mentioning: "I am not a noun, I am an adjective. I am anything that behaves in a John-K-Clarkish way."

It's at least conceptually possible that we have all these things, each as separate entities. For example, our brains might generate a structure of ordinary matter and energy that survives death but doesn't contain any useful information; our brain might also utilize noncomputable physical laws, simply to speed up information-processing, without that being intrinsic to qualia; we might have qualia generated by ordinary information-processing; our mind-state might be preserved by friendly aliens with time-cameras, or preserved at death by beings running our Universe as a computer simulation; God could place a part of Verself in each of us but translate it into ordinary neurocode running on a neurological module; and so on. Unfortunately, the confusion on these issues now runs so deep that any discovery in any of these areas would be taken to confirm the existence of an immortal extraphysical morally-valent et-cetera soul.

-- Eliezer Yudkowsky, an expert on AI and Singularity, quote from FAQ: The Meaning of Life.

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"It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this."
-- Bertrand Russell, from "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" in the collection, Unpopular Essays

"Man is a credulous animal, and must believe something; in the absence of good grounds for belief, he will be satisfied with bad ones."
-- Bertrand Russell, from "An Outline of Intellectual Rubbish" in the collection, Unpopular Essays

By the way, get on topic.

[This message has been edited by metahuman (edited 01-10-2004).]

UnknownComic: The Christian Nation Myth, The Origins of Christianity and the Quest for the Historical Jesus Christ. Have fun!

ACK!

BLASPHEMER!

I'm going to hell now, just for reading that, AINT I !?

______________
Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

UnknownComic: The answer is heavily dependent on your concept of self, your concept of hell/Hell, your concept of a metaphysical entity that would concern itself with you, the conditions for being sent to hell/Hell, and whether you met those conditions or not. ;p

MH

I have been accused many times of regurgitating in this asylum and your doing the same. Now I see how I come across to posters. I must seem puppettized.

OK. All I want to know is if Metahuman has a soul or not? Yes or No. If you cannot answer this, maybe it means you don't know. If you can't or don't want to explain the rational on why you love your love mom, just say you can't.

I wonder why you put creedence in the sites you post who are just someone elses opinions and historically have no proof anyway and you don't put stock in the possibility there could be a man who lived named Jesus who was at least special. Maybe in your search for knowledge or in your studies you should take an unbias approach instead of trying to disprove God/Jesus.

And if I got of topic, sorry. I am sure its allowed every now and then.

before you ask why I love my mother, could you tell me why I wouldn't ?
and Jade no one ever accused you here, Lacuna already told you...quit being a victim


and if you want to know why I love my mother...ok..does it has to do anythign with Jesus? absolutly no.

I love my mother because she raised me and showed love to me, meaning she thought me how to love someone/anyone back...regardless of religion or whatever..

its simple Jade...christianity is just like any other religion, when you talk to people from different religions try to keep YOUR strong religious point of veiw to yourself, but if you must express yourself try doing it without using your religious oppinion....Bugs doesnt go around all the time and yells..its JESUS its JESUS! Blood is thicker than mud! or any other nonsense, we also almost never hear DL yell THERE IS NO GOD! You christians ARE CRAZY!
they simply avoid using such concepts because its annoying plus people here know that everyone is individual and have their own religion and views on them and RESPECT them!

but your way of talking as if Catholics are so Divine that everything else is basicly nothing...

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-10-2004).]

And on that same note Ruski, you need to stop using your bias against jade as the point in your posts.

I think Jade actually asked a couple of very valid and important questions. (and yes, now maybe you see what it's like to not have your direct questions answered, or to have them answered only by quotes, Jade.... )

If you're going to base an argument on everything in life needing to be based on reason and rationality, then you need to be able to explain (wihtout simply using a multitude of quotes) how that applies to every aspect, and not just how it applies when it's convenient to shoot down other people's beliefs...

Now, back to the "topic" -
I agree with the basic ideas that the author has put forth. My concern, however, is that the author is trying too hard. The author seems to be needing to prove a point to himself, and is a little too zealous about it. This is a very common problem on BOTH sides of such religious debates - and unfortunately, the non-religous are often as guilty as the religious.


(oh, and just for the record - THERE IS NO GOD - YOU CHRISTIANS ARE CRAZY!!!!! )




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-10-2004).]

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Jade
OK. All I want to know is if Metahuman has a soul or not? Yes or No. If you cannot answer this, maybe it means you don't know.

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As an agnostic atheistic rationalist, I must say that I don't know. Whether souls or gods exist is rationally irrelevant.

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Jade
If you can't or don't want to explain the rational on why you love your love mom, just say you can't.

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This is typical of evangelists of all faiths. Even if one is able, they demand their "opponent" state he is unable. Explaining the science of relationships would take up a lot of my time. You would first have to tell me which type of love you would like explained before I could present you with any external resources.

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Jade
Maybe in your search for knowledge or in your studies you should take an unbias approach instead of trying to disprove God/Jesus.

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I do not endeavor to disprove what has not been proved.

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Jade
I have been accused many times of regurgitating in this asylum and your doing the same. Now I see how I come across to posters. I must seem puppettized.

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You came into my thread. Remember that.

By the way, a surge of norepinephrine, dopamine and phenylethylamine attach to the pleasure receptors in the brain to cause emotions such as euphoria, happiness, etc. This happens when you kiss another. I'm sure if you did a little searching on the Web you'd be able to find scientific research regarding relationships, sexual intercourse, and practically anything else that you're interested in. Humans are not as special as you would think. We are simply biological machines. We have our own CPU (the brain) which is supported by our power supply (the heart). We are extremely advanced machines with intelligence beyond anything we can create. We endeavor to seek out our origins. Some prefer to seek out these origins through primitive means like religion. Others use modern science. However, some humans would rather remain ignorant and proactively dormant.

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DL-44
If you're going to base an argument on everything in life needing to be based on reason and rationality, then you need to be able to explain (wihtout simply using a multitude of quotes) how that applies to every aspect, and not just how it applies when it's convenient to shoot down other people's beliefs...

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There isn't any reason to "reinvent the wheel." If quotes help to accomplish my goal at any particular moment, I'll use quotes. An explanation of rationality as it applies to every aspect of life would be infinitely time-consuming. I've noticed that you like to request the impossible. Try not to do that. It doesn't strengthen your argument (if you have one).

"We are extremely advanced machines with intelligence beyond anything we can create. We endeavor to seek out our origins. Some prefer to seek out these origins through primitive means like religion. Others use modern science. However, some humans would rather remain ignorant and proactively dormant."

aye, mate. tit for tat. some seek through all means they can find (not just one or the other) and don't restict themselves to just gaining knowledge, but seek wisdom. all the knowledge in the universe is nothing without wisdom. i am a salt eating slug. not a machine. and who are you to call religion primitive. yeah, dude, like science is really modern, dude! i'm reminded of a quote from SNL circa the seventies. . ."Jane, you ignorant slut!" that's how you seem to be addressing those who dare not agree with your opinion, whatever that may be. it's not really clear to me just what your point is.

there's one commandment i find, at times, hard to wrap may head around. love your enemies. what?! should i be loving on the devil? does god love the devil? if it's all really real, then i think it will be the hardest thing god has ever done when he destroys satan, because he created him in the "full measure" i.e. the most perfect in all his ways. . .until sin was found in him. was he created specifically for this purpose?

but, you might ask, what about jesus? he wasn't created. he is the word spoken by god by which all else was created. the word became flesh. hey, i'm flesh (not a machine). but not jesus by any stretch of my imagination (maybe i need a bigger imagination). *hint*

i have never been able, nor do i think anyone will ever be able, to explain life by rational or objective or scientific means. it just doesn't work. life is too messy. and even if i break all the commandments or, follow the commandments to the letter, it doesn't guarantee anything. least of all, human interactions.

/ignore-rant

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i have never been able, nor do i think anyone will ever be able, to explain life by rational or objective or scientific means

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hmm...look how far we have come...with science

maybe not in your time dude...but once again wisdom doesnt explain anything about it either...or it gives you a real deep, deep question, which makes individuals to come up with their own answears and then cause a war about it.....

I did say searching and sticking to facts might avoid alot of it.....

but yeah...brain is not that simple, its machine, but not a mere machine. Biological machine which is quite different from mechanical machine you migh assume.

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outcydr
/ignore-rant

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Will do. Lay off the crack.

Ahhhh...ok - now I understand.

I didn't at first realize that this thread was simply your little ego-trip.

Had you mentioned that in the first post, I would have simply steered clear and let you have your little fun.

bye bye

DL-44: Calm your elitism.

oh. ok. I think I have some tucked away in that shoe-box in the closet....

I'll go tell it to be calm.

In the meantime, take the elevator to the top floor of your ego and let it know that it's ok - you're still special, whether everyone else knows it or not




[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-11-2004).]

GN: Is that special as in 'special needs'?

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

Wow, we are way off topic now. I like you metahuman. I just am trying to see a deeper side of you.

Well that is not the kind of answers I was looking for, but I quess it will have to do.

But I did want to ask you a question since your so knowledgeable in the sciences. If man is suppose to be so intelligent, why does he only operate on 10 % of his brain. What is the other 90 % for?
What can you speculate as to why man is limited in the full use of his brain capacity?

A religious humored me with a theory awhile back, that once a human did operate with 100% of his brain and it was Adam. But God took 90% of his intelligence away and left him 10% after his great fall from grace.

I have always wondered why science has not tapped into full understanding of the complex human brain. Why hasn't there been a breakthrough.

Thanks for your defense DL. I rarely get it. I think Ruski thinks of me like the enemy. In my attempt to describe the Ten Commandments , I was speaking for all christian denominations, not just mine. I think we pretty much agree on the meaning they have for us in society today.



[This message has been edited by jade (edited 01-12-2004).]

[Humorous Aside]

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Jade:
I like you metahuman. I just am trying to see a deeper side of you.

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I could put a hole in him...<Stabz> Is that deep enough?[/Humorous Aside]

An enemy?..no...not even close...

Concerning the article: I agree with some of the other comments about the author "trying too hard" to make his case. He is exhibiting some of the same poor reasoning and arguments that so many religious types do in an effort to quickly and cleanly hammer their agenda down.

I have also found Ayn Rand adherents to be a bit pushy almost in an evangelical fashion and I don't really like that too much. That movement has many negative psuedo-religious qualities to it. It's almost as bad as the Amway fanatics of a few years ago! Just to be clear, I acknowledge there are aspects of religion that are extremely good but there are those that are very harmful as well.

Jade made a lot of good points about how the Ten Commandments can be regarded. I would like to add a few points too. Those commandments were specifically written to a particular people that lived in a particular time period. Christians are not obligated to follow the Ten Commandments as found in the OT. Our marching orders are clearly explained in the NT by Jesus Himself. I would paraphrase them as "love God and love everyone else". That sums up the law for us today.

The author says,

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As first, it is the fundamental. Its point is the assertion that the individual is not an independent being with a right to live his own life but the vassal of an invisible Lord. It says, in effect, "I own you; you must obey me."

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Umm... yeah, sort of. That's about right. I have freely given myself to God and I pray that He can use me well. I am His slave. I am in His service. Put any template you want on it but He is the boss and I want to do His will. Whether or not my obedience is voluntary has no bearing on whether or not the Creator has sovereignty over His creation. This is the way it should be, and the author makes it sound just the opposite. There is an excellent verse from the Bible about this,

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One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
--Romans 9:19-21

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The author, in effect, worships the individual. The individual is his god. He has a right to believe that, but let's be clear as to what he's saying. This is all part of the Ayn Rand / Objectivist frame of mind he subscribes to. It's good to know where a person is coming from.

Anyway, he does make some valid points. One of them is that this country was never meant to be a theocracy based solely upon the 10 Commandments. The bit about observing the Sabbath makes no sense at all in that regard and really makes Xians who believe Xianity is all about following these commandments to the letter.


metahuman said:

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I dismiss all intepretations of the Bible and of the Ten Commandments unless they are literal--rational and objective. If "God" intended for "His" laws to be taken figuratively, "He" would have written it like so.

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Doesn't this make your position just as asenine as a hard line fundamentalist? You're making it sound like those commandments must be followed to the letter by Xians today, are you saying that? Help me out on your point here.

outcydr said:

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there's one commandment i find, at times, hard to wrap may head around. love your enemies. what?! should i be loving on the devil? does god love the devil?

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Hmmmm... I'll have to munch on that one. Good question. But you're right that we are commanded to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us. That's a real tough one to follow through on alright.

. . : slicePuzzle

MUST....quote....Einstein!

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If this being is omnipotent, then every occurrence, including every human action, every human thought, and every human feeling and aspiration is also His work; how is it possible to think of holding men responsible for their deeds and thoughts before such an almighty Being? In giving out punishment and rewards He would to a certain extent be passing judgment on Himself. How can this be combined with the goodness and righteousness ascribed to Him?

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If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.

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I do not believe in the God of theology who rewards good and punishes evil.

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A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death

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I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it.

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The most beautiful experience we can have is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. Whoever does not know it and can no longer wonder, no longer marvel, is as good as dead, and his eyes are dimmed. It was the experience of mystery-- even if mixed with fear -- that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, our perceptions of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which only in their most primitive forms are accessible to our minds -- it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute true religiosity; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.

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no purpose just wanted to throw it in


[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-15-2004).]