Topic awaiting preservation: Just when you thought maybe the south wasn't as bad as they say... ;) (Page 1 of 2)

http://www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/30/striking.evolution.ap/index.html

I mean.....wow....

DL: I saw that but was too depressed by it to post

Frightening.

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

I was about to post the same thing (just saw on CNN).

Kathy Cox isn't really the bad-guy here (at least not how the article makes her sound), she's just doing her job and representing her constituency. The parents on the other hand... definitely need social services to step in. Educating your children in your religious beliefs is one thing. Attempting to deny them education of their surrounding world, on the other hand should be, and I believe may be, punishable.

What some people fail to understand is that Evolution is a scientific fact. It has been proven that over millions of years certain animals have evolved and adapted to their environment to survive better. People are just as easily confusing the scientific fact with the evolutionary theory that man itself, had evolved from apes over time. And even that really doesn't disprove the existence of God.

I remember last year in Biology, the last unit we covered was Evolution. Before we even opened our books the teacher told us:

"I am required by law to tell you, that what we are about to study is in no way shape or form a theory, religous abomination, or scientific belief. The Evolution we are about to study is different to the Evolutionary theory proposed by Charles Darwin. The Evolutionary theory we are about to study is a scientific fact, but it is not the idea that we have evolved from Apes. This is in no way against anyone's belief in God. I believe in God and I cannot deny what is in this book because it is true."

Ermz, or something like that.

what insider said...and uhh I was planing to go to Savannah School of Art and Design, but...damn I hope this stupidity can be stopped.....

now I am kinda terrified of Georgia itself ..heh

I simply cannot understand whats going on with the damn world today? or is it just America? ban word evolution? make up more stupid vocabulory like "Killigraphy" ? someone please tell me I am dreaming...

[This message has been edited by Ruski (edited 01-30-2004).]

Actually, evolution is a theory.

There is a whole lot of evidence to support this theory, but it is still a theory. More importantly, I dont see how it interferes with a belief in God. Even the truly devout will admit they dont precisely know God's timeline. There is speculation, but, it is just speculation.

It is conceivable that Evolution is God's Creation. A billion years is a nanosecond for One who is Infinite. By the very nature of infinity, 100 billion years would also be but just a sliver of time. Just consider (100 billion years X (100 billion years)¹º + Infinity). There see, just a sliver.

I dont see why it is so apalling that God would use apes... Is dirt more appealing? Or was it clay?

Is there something inherently evil in trying to figure out where we came from?

I mean is it evil to wonder how we evolved? No matter what the answer, the pious can just insert it into their religion as God's Plan. No harm, No foul.

Unless I am missing something, it doesnt really matter, right?

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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

Well, what kills me more than anything about this, is that they are still going teach about evolution.

They just won't be using the word "evolution".

I mean.....


AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. . . .

quote:

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Actually, evolution is a theory.

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That species evolve is a fact. The theory part is the mechanism by which they evolve.

As DL points out, the absurdity of not using the word 'evolution' is just ridiculous. I can't believe someone actually came up with such nonsense.

Amerasu

o.k.
i agree with the stupidity of this but,
i don't think the "south" has much to do with it


thinking is optional

UnknownComc.

Is.

Right.

(IMO)

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War is Peace,
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength.

Actually, I think it's almost not a bad idea. It's not like they're changing any curriculums. They're just changing the way in which they approach a controversial topic.

The only real flaw in this is that it's not going to have the intended effect, because it's not like anyone's going to think they're talking about anything different than before. But I don't see how it would have a *negative* impact.

Slime - it's just one more example in modern society of approaching a problem by changing what we call a thing rather than actually addressing the issue.

It's going to be negative for a huge number of reasons, a couple of which are

1) confusion. are we talking evolution or aren't we?? Oh, "evolution" is bad. That's the devil. These biological changes over time are a great thing!

2) ignorance. this allows people to deny evolution despite knowing its facts. this is yet another example of religion going too damn far and being able to control things it shouldn't.

3) Simply put - there's no good reason for it!! As is quoted in the article - it's like teaching "gravity" without using the word gravity...what's the damn point?



[This message has been edited by DL-44 (edited 01-31-2004).]

Maybe if they are going to ban the word evol*****n, they should also ban the word rel****n.

Or better yet, just ban being st***d.

Come to think of it, when I went to school in Georgia I wanted them to ban the word homework.....

..and also ban the words 'speculate', 'theorise', and 'biased opinions created by armchair scientists that read something somewhere and saw something on Discovery Channel and call it fact'..


At the risk of being rude.. I just can't resist.. what a load of bollocks! ( ..and before anyone attacks me I mean theories and not people ok?)



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 01-31-2004).]

An ol' scrotum face steps in:
http://edition.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/30/georgia.evolution/index.html

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

quote:

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..and also ban the words 'speculate', 'theorise', and 'biased opinions created by armchair scientists that read something somewhere and saw something on Discovery Channel and call it fact'..

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That species evolve is a fact. Not because I say so but because 150 years of evidence and study by scientists says so. The theory part of "evolution" is the mechanism(s) by which species evolve. Evolution is both a fact (species evolve) and a theory (how they evolve). You could easily look this information up. It's readily available.




Amerasu

Are you referring to the word 'adapt'? Please clarify. Or are you trying to tell me by the word 'evolve' you mean that some primitive single celled, swamp dwelling jelly baby transformed into a web-designing, mp3 downioading nueorosis ridden burger eating lump with a mortgage? Oh, after the great firework display in the barren and formless void? Well how ever many discovery programs I watch.. I just can't bend my imagination round that one... ...maybe if I take some class A drugs I could envisage the sparklers in space. If only I had faith like yours I could move ..my ass off this chair.



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 02-01-2004).]

quote:

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"The existing and long-standing use of the word 'evolution' in our state's textbooks has not adversely affected Georgians' belief in the omnipotence of God as creator of the universe," Carter said. "There can be no incompatibility between Christian faith and proven facts concerning geology, biology, and astronomy.

"There is no need to teach that stars can fall out of the sky and land on a flat Earth in order to defend our religious faith."

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I think president Carter put it very well

Emps, where in the world did he get that nickname?

Unfortunately, the word "evolution" has definitely become a buzzword used by both sides wrongly. There are those who think "evolution" has proven God does not exist and there are those who think that if they accept any portion of the theory it's tad amount to acknowledging that.

This theory does not, should not, cannot disprove the existence of God no more than anyone can prove the existence of God. This is about trying to understand the history of life on this planet.

Ok, since I probably associate with people who are praising this Georgia decision more than some of you, perhaps I can help explain their position better. Many Xians who oppose "evolution" tend to believe that the Bible is the "inerrant literal word of God". This means that the Bible is word for word correct with absolutely no mistakes and 100% reliable end of story. There is absolutely no way you can hold a position like that and not see an incompatibility between the Genesis account of creation and the theory of evolution. A literal reading of the Bible dates the entire universe at no older than 10,000 years max. You can't have much evolution happening in that amount of time.

So for Xians who hold that view, evolution is a direct attack on their most fundamental beliefs. It's understandable why they oppose evolution so strongly once you see where they are coming from.

I do not agree with this reading of the Bible and I, like the former president, see no problems with the theory as seen in its proper scientific context.

. . : slicePuzzle

I didn't say anything about single celled organisms turning into people. That would be silly. I said that species evolve. Speciation has been observed.. sounds like good evidence to me

Anyway, I'm not going to debate science with you, Xpirex. I don't have much time to spend here and there are plenty of books for you to learn from if you're truly interested. I can recommend Stephen Jay Gould's Ever Since Darwin: Reflections in Natural History or Richard Dawkins' Climbing Mount Improbable. I've read them both and they're very accessible to lay-people like you and I. They helped me to understand. I also recommend Carl Sagan's Demon Haunted World - an excellent primer for science. Barring the purchase of books, there's always Talk Origins. If you check out Five Major Misconceptions about Evolution it should provide you with the basics as well as a link to Tim Wallace's (a creationist) rebuttal. The information is readily available.


[This message has been edited by Amerasu (edited 01-31-2004).]

Bugs: My friends and I were watching late night TV drunk many moons ago and we were watching something that had sign language running along side it and we discovered what the British Sign language is for Ronald Reagan (its "Old Cowboy" - shown by stroking the chin with one hand and then making 'pistols' from your fingers, and making up and down shooting gestures with them - think Mick Foley and his "bang bang" thing if that helps) and so we invented our own sign language for various US presidents and "Ol' Scrotum Face" is the onyl one that stuck

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Emps

The Emperor dot org

New bumper-sticker:

"When evolution is outlawed...Only outlaws will evolve"

or:

"I don't want to evolve, and you can't make me..."

Emps, I'm almost sorry I asked

norm: I'd buy one

[edit: Or:

"Don't make a monkey of evolution"

"Don't monkey around with evolution"

"Don't ape Creationists - they may not like it"

"Evolution is a theory not a fact but its a bloody good one"

"Those who don't evolve stagnate"

"Well I'll be a monkey's uncle" ]

<DARWIN><

___________________
Emps

The Emperor dot org

LOL;

quote:

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But Carter said dropping the word would leave Georgia's high school graduates "with a serious handicap as they enter college or private life where freedom of speech will be permitted."

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Freedom of Speech?

I guess he hasnt read George and Ashcroft's new world orders....

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Is This Thing On?

Bleah...

...or been on a university campus lately

. . : slicePuzzle

Fantastic Norm - print 'em up!

Amerasu: ..yes I have read way too much rubbish.. I won't even pretend to be interested.. I don't like your view of the world.. I see all to well where it's getting you. You can keep it thanks.

Xpirex, I think too many people assume that science is *the* answer to all our troubles and not simply a tool at our disposal. True scientists don't extrapolate science into a pseudo-god. However, many people who have no god use science as a substitute. In my way of understanding those who see science as god are every bit as mistaken as those who think it is the devil's work.

Since science is just a tool and not an entity interested in what's best for humankind, it can be used to lift us up as well as destroy us. It is up to the wielders of this excellent tool to decide its use.

. . : slicePuzzle

quote:

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Amerasu: ..yes I have read way too much rubbish.. I won't even pretend to be interested.. I don't like your view of the world.. I see all to well where it's getting you. You can keep it thanks.

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Just because we don't agree doesn't mean there's a need to resort to such remarks. If you want to promote your view on evolution, go right ahead, I'm interested and will check out your suggestions. I may not agree with the findings but I'll give them a read in my spare time.

I'm sorry for any offense caused, it wasn't intended. I was just listing some book recommendations that I thought would be good reads on the subject

quote:

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Xpirex, I think too many people assume that science is *the* answer to all our troubles and not simply a tool at our disposal. True scientists don't extrapolate science into a pseudo-god. However, many people who have no god use science as a substitute. In my way of understanding those who see science as god are every bit as mistaken as those who think it is the devil's work.

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Hi Bugs, I'm not sure if you're referring to me or to atheists in general but I'd like to respond to this anyway. Science is a fantastic tool. Without it we wouldn't be communicating over the internet or living in nice, warm houses during the cold of winter. However, as much as I love the knowledge and tools science brings society, I certainly don't use science as a substitute for gods. I've heard this view from a number of Christains and wonder why they often feel the need to have all people worship something tangible if not a god. It seems to me to be a projection of your worldview to ours. To me science is a tool only. I believe most atheists feel this way - the ones I know at least

Amerasu - I wholeheartedly agree. I have brought this notion up in the past of how most christians can't seem to fathom how an atheist would not beleive in god, and yet not fill that lack of belief with the worship of some other thing.

I guess that it comes down to a person needing something so much that they can't fathom somebody not needing it. . .

Amerasu, I was not referring to you nor to DL-44. I didn't think I needed to state that explicitly and I'm glad you brought it up so now you know

I just know that there are those who do and I was specifically referring to them. If you don't think there are those that use science as a substitute for God, then let's explore that further.

. . : slicePuzzle

Actually, I wouldn't mind exploring it further, or more specifically - I'd like to hear your thoughts on it. I really don't know any atheists who use science as a form of worship or substitute for a god. How would you even measure something like that, Bugs? It would have to be an awfully subjective call. I have a friend who says the same thing (a pantheist) but we've never discussed it further than me saying something like "that's not true for me" and him dropping it. Not much of a discussion

I have no problems saying "We don't know" to big bang or abiogenesis questions but I also believe that science will probably answer those questions at some point. Does that sort of belief constitute worship? Is that what you would call faith?

If you have time and feel like explaining further, I am interested in why you believe some atheists worship science.

Just for starters, it is my position that science can tell us the "what, how, and when" but not the "why". I've heard a few here over the years say that they believed that eventually science could provide the answers to "why". But that's impossible . I think people who hold that position look to science to give them purpose. People naturally yearn for purpose and God provides it, science was never meant to do that so why do some seek it there?

. . : slicePuzzle

I agree with you Bugs..

..and Amerasu I was not being rude by rejecting your standpoint.. you seemed to asume I have not read anything on the subject.. I have.. and I reject it completely anyway..To me it's poison.. lies... offering me that is like offering me crack. You seemed to imply that if only I read more of the material your suggesting.. then I would see the light. Hey sorry man but I don't want the kind of light that leaves the world in sick darkness. "

The wisdom of men is foolishness with God"



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 02-02-2004).]

Interesting, Bugs. I suppose I don't consider a big bang "why" answer out of the realm of possibility for science. But I'd argue that looking to science to answer that particular "why" would be curiousity, not necessarily looking for a purpose. I am actually quite comfortable being purposeless in a cosmic sense. I just accept that we're here and I don't dwell on why. Of course I'd like to know because I'm curious but I don't need to know to give my little earthly life purpose. I suspect this might be true for other atheists.

Xpirex, that was my assumption. My apologies

No problems dude.. sorry if It appeared that way..



[This message has been edited by Xpirex (edited 02-02-2004).]

Amerasu, remember that I'm not saying you fall into this category. I'm just telling you about people I've encountered who do.

Bugs, even highschool physic book states it clearly, science is not ment to answear "why" and they are not even interested in"why"...
if people want "why" they go to phylosophy or religion, for me "why" is pretty much useless question...if I know "when" and "how" I guess people pretty much can figure out "why" on their own.

and I find it very ridiculus, as you stated that many believe science will be cabpable to answear "why"

IMO "why" is the most impatient question...its like if you are explaining something to a little kid and he gets confused and imediatly start yelling "Why! Why! Why!" as if they want to find out everything right away! hehe

Xpi are you saying that you do not accept the fact such as gravity? that everything is made out of atoms? etc?