Preserved Topic: Adventures in Pseudo Truth ][

http://www.ozones.com/forum/Forum1/HTML/000629.html

well, god told me to close the other one...
...but he ain't say not'ing about opening a new one...

go fig...

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

That is my point Skaarj. Beauty is a concept we create. Its not necessary for the continuation of the universe.

Here is something else to chew on.

What if when we die, we just cease to exist? Why are people so attached to the idea of an everlasting soul? What if we are no more than the sum total of our parts? If you break us down into our smallest components we are no different from the rocks, the trees, or other living creatures. Maybe when we die we just die. Did you ever consider that when you flushed your goldfish down the toilet its soul went to heaven? So when we are finally flushed, what is to say that isn't just the end. The biological reactions within us stop and we are returned to the Earth as the same raw materials we were built from.

If there is a God, what is to say he is so concerned with us? Maybe he just created the world and tossed us under the bed to be forgotten. An experiment gone awry. Or possibly God is omniscient but not benevolent. He could be a Trixter of sorts. Throwing a deadly virus our way once in a while to see how we react. Perhaps a little civil unrest sprinkled around with some election dysfunction. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/wink.gif"> Like putting two bees in a jar and shaking it to make them fight.

Why do we not like to entertain these thoughts? Because they would cease to give meaning to our lives. We like to think we are here with some divine purpose. It gives us something to inflate ourselves with through the day. No one likes to seriously consider the possibility that we are just a random mutation. Just a virus that consumes what it can and moves on.

Scarey isn't it?

i just posted my mini thesis and POW! thread closed!
thank God for browser back, cut and paste!

valid argument petskull,
but you'll have to agree that it all is a matter of perspective.
I can look at fermented sugar, chemical reactions, the complex nature of the laws of physics, and think "bloody hell, the 'person' who made these laws ahd it all figured out!"
instead of "bloody hell, lucky that when we exploded into being we had just the right gas mix, gravitational pull, and general displacement from the sun to create a fully functioning environment!"

i dont see how the presence of science provides evidence for the absence of God. I think its jsut the attitude that for there to be a God, our existence, and the world around us has to be all mystical and spiritualistic. couldnt God have created physics?

Its moments like these that make me feel guilty for not uncovering more about my religion , and the beliefs that oppose it.
dont get me wrong, i do know a bit, but not enough to quell the plethora of arguments that are thrown my way.

i think i need to make a note - i hope no-one feels that in these posts i am one who is "shove their religion down your throat".
I am merely presenting my beliefs and view on the world and life. I wish for you to simply respect them, maybe even consider them, but the choice there is yours. Likewise, i read the posts of those who believe the 'opposite' of what i do, and i can respect that it is their belief, and they have chosen that. (at least here it seems evident that these choices are educated ones, not simple rebellion for the sake of individualism.)
I'm glad this is a mature conversation, i am tired of being told by atheists and darwinists that i am too closed-minded. I do not feel that i am. i have seriously studied what these beliefs have to offer, and have decided that Christianity makes the most sense to me. Often, i feel that many atheists, in their comments regarding my beliefs as close minded, are close-minded themselves, as they dismiss Christianity as fallacy without investigation.
Note - that is definitely not referring to anyone here. It was in reference to the old fashioned, face to face encounters i used to have. Those were the days.

<img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

Here is an interesting one.

I wrote a paper in college where the basic theory was that all world religions were based on man's inate fear of death.

Basically the idea is that man was afraid that after he dies, thats it. No more. And from that basic fear came the creation of an afterlife myth which led to rules regarding that afterlife and suddenly bam we have a religion.

Again it's not a provable point (or actually once we do prove it one way or another it's too late to do anything about it)

Personally I don't believe in any one religion I just try to treat people well and let the rest sort itself out.



Walking the Earth like Kane

Everyone gets caught up in advancement and "progess," but really do these things make our lives any better? Women talk about equality and womans sufferage, but rarely do they mention one of the results of the womens rights movement, which was that most wages reflect the fact that employers except both parents to be working, even when raising children. Is it great to see more(don't even think for a second women are anywhere equal to men in our society) women in traditionaly male roles, of course it is. Is it great that you can't support a family on one persons wages(male or female) anymore? Not really in my book. People talk about time saving decives and how we make more money then anyone else has in the past. No shit, time saving devices not so we have more free time, but so we can work longer, more pay? We work longer hours. When we can do a job that used to take us 3 hours, and now takes us 1, do we get a break? No we just work for 2 extra hours. American minimum wage is the biggest abuse I've ever seen. People wonder why there is so much depression, hard work no longer lifts people out of poverty. And then there are the thousands of mind control devices(also known as advertisements) we are subjected to every day telling us we NEED Tommy Hilfiger brand shoelaces, DKNY brand tampons, or heaven forbid, a Microsoft product(don't tell me tons of dumbass sysadmins don't trust linux because of advertising), or an Adobe product. Anyway I thought I'd point out that I've never seen a human made product that ever came close to the simple impossible complexity of the smallest aspect of this earth's excosystem.

KRETS: how about this one..
When we die, we cease to exist as ourselves *per say* but live on in the form of giving life to the various form of critter that break down the flesh,(i.e.) as worm food, we exist as molecular parts of our former selves, which in turn are consumed by birds, where a few molecules continue to live on , and so on back up the food chain until we are a part of another whole sentient being.
We`re all just a composite of other forms anyway, right ? Is this possibly a form of racial memory ? Instinct ? Bulls**t ?

Whoa! Dude! You can shake a jar of bees and make them fight?!?! Cool!

<e>
Oops, itchy trigger finger.
Any ET freaks in here? I was thinking about DNA and how that's obviously (to me) a message from our creator. Thinking of all the information systems we know of and how they are all *made* by a creator. Ask any physicist, there is no law of physics that's able to create information from nothing. SETI is based on this in fact, they are looking constantly for a high-information radio signal that they would regard as proof of an intelligent message sender. Is not DNA the most high-information 'signal' known to man? I heard one of those cool analogies once, a bit of DNA the size of a pinhead contains enough information to fill a stack of paperbacks that would go 500 times the distance past the moon if stacked, each with it's own distinct info. Now that's an information system. *Who* made that one?
</e>

JKMabry

[This message has been edited by JKMabry (edited 11-14-2000).]

I thought long and hard before posting here, but here goes:
I have to agree somewhat with Krets on this issue. As a species we have more in common whith a virus (*but a cultural self-aware one) than something I'd like to think of as "in the image of God".

I've tried a few beliefs on for size, and none of them really gave me any feeling of satisfaction. I've got good friends who are atheist, christians, wiccans, budhists and so on, and we all get along just great, since everyone of us has an open mind about it.

With a obvious risk of being slandered I'd like to confess that one of the sanest things in my book I actually read from Anton Szandor LaVey. (*NO* I don't drink blood, treat others badly or torture kids and puppies).
Anyway he had a notion that you should be your own god, because only you can affect the changes your life in a significant way.

I kind of liked that, because I've had a bunch of *really* crappy things happening to me when I was younger, and to me that was a nudge in the direction that some things you can change, some just happens...

I just want to leave with a single question (no pun intended to anyone):

Howcome that I'm classed as a lunatic if I belive in UFO's but sane if I believe in an almight god (of any religion)?

Take care




-nimraw
If you can't convince, confuse!

As the creator of this topic, I would like to make a firm suggestion - please avoid the discussion of whether or not God exists. Also, please refrain from discussing religion. Create a new topic for these concepts.

There are two points that I would like to reply to:

1. It has been suggested that one purpose of life is to live "productively and happily as is humanly possible"

One side of this statement is reassuring, that is that productivity can be measured and is, in general, a positive term that can be carefully observed and applied to reproduce beneficial results. However, I think it is time to discard the notion of "happiness" as our purpose. This idea is too vague, often abused, and does not possess the scientific responsibility I am seeking for ideas that are to lead the human ideal for our future. I am certain that Ted Bundy was very happy to kill women, for example. I believe that the human race must begin to analyze the science of ethics and the logic of fruiful, positive behavoir. We must truly understand the reason to be selfless, to be loving, etc.

2. Someone posed the idea that nothing man has made can compare to the elegant complexity of nature. I would agree, until now. The Internet and all communication networks in general (including computers) are reaching this level of complexity. And we should be very, very aware of this.



Contained within this sentence is an information virus which has just lept from your computer to your brain.

You totally missed my point Meta <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">

I use the term 'happy' precisely as a generic way to describe a state of contentment.. not as in everyone running around with big huge smiles on their faces 24/7 .. lol

(thats not to say that seeing people smiling more often would be a bad thing!)

<img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">

edit:speeling

~Vp~


[This message has been edited by vogonpoet (edited 11-14-2000).]

quote:
"I find it hard to believe that I even have to defend the fact that the *VAST* majority of people on this Earth are clinging to hundreds if not thousands of completely untrue or at the very least improvable concepts. Logic and Reason are not the common denominators of humanity. Yet."

I think *I'm* on topic here, you talking to someone else Meta? Do you not want this conversation, that has been excellent and thought-provoking, to have it's own free will and go where it chooses? Or would you rather clamp down and require it to adhere to *your* will? Don't mean to sound snotty, I just thought that last post sounded a little arrogant.

JKMabry

Krets:
I read in a book somewhere that our perception of the afterlife goes as follows:
We, as humans, find it impossible to fathom 'nothingness'. Try and picture a vacuum in your head. It's impossible because our minds can't work that way. We can picture a vacuum IN something --say, in a light bulb-- and we can picture a vacuum AROUND something --say, two basketballs floating in the emptiness of space--, but it is impossible to picture it if our helpfull basketballs are taken away. Our ability to picture such an extreme abstract hits a brick wall at about this point. Therefore, man's inability to picture 10 seconds after his own demise spawned all sort of theories that make him no have to do so. Nifty, ain't it?

pixels:
Actually, that's what Deism is. I believe that God created the universe --meaning that little spark that started the big bang-- and is just as amazed by all it's splendor as we are, and I doubt he knows that concious life was created here at all. I believe that he has about as much power to hold vigil over us here, as we have of caring for each and every anthill in out respective countries. Even if we had the power to heal and even new that the ants were there, could you contemplate intimate knowledge about each and every one of the 6 billion ants on this anthill and all the others?

JKMabry:
that's what evolution is, my friend. We had a long-ass time to get it right and it STILL ain't perfect.

Meta:
The thread has evolved. At least it's still philosophy. Deal.

...and also about something pixels said earlier, about people "shoving their religion down your throat".
I would really like to applaud everyone here on account of the fact that even though we don't see eye to eye, we haven't had any posts like:

"What the fuck is wrong with you!!! It says right in the BIBLE that God created man and woman!! What are you, stupid?!? If you might be suggestiong that the BIBLE might be wrong, you can go munch on a power cable, Asshole!!"

..to be honest, I was actually expecting a few posts like this...

I see that everyone here has actually thought it out and that their system of beliefs isn't set on 'Default'. I'm proud of ya'll..

Peace and macaroni....

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

hehe... heres a quote...
"If you feel far away from God, guess who moved." ~idunno.
more to come later <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">


"There's always a bigger fish."

Petskull, evolution?
Are we talkin evolution now?
<img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/biggrin.gif">
heheh, yeah, cheers to the self-control. BTW, most Christians I know don't swear *that* bad.

JKMabry

I can picture a vacuum. I just think about whats in between the ears of our two presidential candidates.

I like that idea. I think it holds a great deal of truth. People are afraid of what happens when they die so they invent comforting places for their souls to go for eternity. The churches caught on to this and decided they could use it for their benefit. If you didn't live your life according to their ideals you would go to a different place for all eternity. A bad place. Talk about a marketing scam!

Krets, if 'nothing' happens when you die, why fear? Who would be afraid of 'nothing'?

I understand completely your argument even though I pretend not to, but seriously my somewhat half-hearted reply there makes perfect sense as well. Both sides of this debate are fueled by faith whether you see that or not, I believe it's true. Someone in part one of this thread said as much, I think it was Petskull. Drop your guard for a minute and consider it.

JKMabry

I too am happy that no one is forcing (or trying to force) beliefs on others... I've seen conversations like that, what a waste of time it is...

I agree that we can't really prove whether or not God exists. I personally think the evidence points to His existence, but hey, evidence isn't proof, so I'm willing to accept that other people don't believe it, although it can make me sad. =(

One thing that I find interesting is that a lot of people say it's easier to believe in a separate, holy god than to believe you're your own god. I disagree! I find it much easier to do what I want to do than to place my trust in God. I constantly struggle with avoiding temptations and acting the way I know God wants me to act, and I often fail. If one thinks they're their own god, they only have to do what they feel is right.

In many cases, what we feel is right does coincide with what God tells us is right (for instance, I doubt many people here think it's morally OK to murder). On the other hand, if we trust our own judgement without comparing it to the Bible, I've found that the results can be bad. I think failing to acknowledge the existence of God is the easier way out. Following God is harder to do, but in the end I believe it will be more rewarding.

Again, my opinion, and a strong one, but I don't want to force it onto anyone. =)

petskull:
what's wrong with you? you moron - the bible is THE truth, it says God did it all, so he did. you are wrong. end of story.
uh , whoops, we were trying to avoid that, werent we?
OK, i know i sound a little too 'spritually enlightened' in the totally crappy sense of the word (ie reality unenlightened), if i just say "God does it and we cant understand, just accept", but i have to head that way....
i can look at one ant, go "cool, an ant!" still not knowing exactlyhow it works, and never achieving any sort of intimacy.
God is different.
Omniscient, Omipotent, Omnipresent.
All Knowing, All Powerful, Everywhere.
'He is the superlative of everything good you chooose to call him.'
What im getting at is that he has paid special attention to all of us, made all of us unique and different, and longs for a personal relationship with all of us - Omnipotent - he has all power.
Lets say that 50 billion billion people have existed on the earth.
Now, petskull, for you, he assigns one 50 billion billionth of his infinite "processing power" (God = king of multitasking!).
now, what is one 50 billion billionth of an infinite source?
Still, infinite.
Just as it is beyond humans to concieve of a space void of everything (nothingness), it is just as much beyond humans to be able to grapple with the idea of an infinite, eternal being. We are such limited creatures, that we cant fully understand what it would be like to be a limiteless power.

I tell you what, irrestpective of what we all believe, we all rock!
just the ability to respoect a belief, and argue in a mature manner, well, impressive.
And i have to admit, this has to be done.

I have these scary images in my mind of a judgement day, where i see someone who looks familiar, then i realise i saw that face in a profile on the ozone bulletin board. Suddenly, this guy realises that we're headed in different directions. He says to me "hey mate, where are you going?"
"heaven."
"so why arent i? that sucks - i knew you online, and we seemed similar. we both liked the same stuff, talked the same, whats the deal."
"im a Christian, dude. i guess your not."
he would look at me, suprised, and say "what? you? no way!"
after thinking a bit, he would say "man, whats the story? this Christianity stuff is obviously pretty important - if it means heaven or hell, for eternity. why didnt you ever tell me? i thought we were friends!"
what could i say? "im sorry, i never got round to it, im so sorry."

get my point?
now, when i see you there, all you can say is "Hey man, im sorry i never paid enough attention to you, its too late now, but thanks for trying."

--this, of course, is only if im on the right track myself. and i have to believe that, ill listen to what oyu guys say, and realisse its perfectly legitimate, but ill stick with what i know for a belief, thanks. you'll have to put up with my 'delusions of grandeur', or whatever they may look like from your perspective.--

pixels,

"Just as it is beyond humans to concieve of a space void of everything (nothingness), it is just as much beyond humans to be able to grapple with the idea of an infinite, eternal being. We are such limited creatures, that we cant fully understand what it would be like to be a limiteless power."

That's the same faulty logic we've been fed for a couple millenia now. It's just not good enough anymore.

Try the "Why do bad things happen?" angle:
Well, if He don't know about it, He's not omnicent or omnipresent.
If He knows about it but can't stop it, He's not omnipotent.
And if knows about it and He can stop it but He still allows it to go on, He's not merciful.

ok, let's try the "God has a plan" angle:
I know this sounds disrespectful, but:
It better be a damn good fucking plan, because He's taken over 5,000 years to get it to work.

ok, how about "I don't have any proof of God":

He's OMNI-FUNCKING-POWERFUL, an hour at the stage in the U.N. ain't THAT out of His reach.
Or how about a huge dream we ALL have at the same time? No... wait... that's 'Pong'. (Man, Pong was the shit)


...and, dude, the little stint there at the end reminds me of a SNL skit, where Jon Lovitz is the devil amd he says a bunch of funny things as he's inducting people into Hell, but I remember one part where he goes "I'd like all the Christians over here, please. All the Cristians form a large group light up in front here. What's that? "Why?" Oh, I'm sorry..

.... the Jews were right."


P.S. Pixels, lay off of the TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) cartoons, man. Seriously, I'm worried about you, alright?

P.S.S. and, as I said in an earlier thread, keep morality to yourself, and if you want to jump off of a building, as long as you don't land on my car, we cool.

EDIT > I forgot my reponse to JKMabry's quote of "Who would be afraid of 'nothing'?"
Who? Everyone. Humans are ALL afraid of the unknown, my friend, that's our common bond...


"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 11-15-2000).]

I take offense to that... <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/frown.gif">

Take offense to what, my dear?

(as if my whole diatribe IS NOT geared as an inflamatory statment against all of us)

EDIT: I found this quote and I thought it fit here (no, I'm not trying t change anyone)
In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion.

--Carl Sagan


"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342

[This message has been edited by Petskull (edited 11-15-2000).]

this will be really quick...

well... he is gonna do someting VERY big some day...

God is not someting a human can put in any kind of box. his time table for example.

A big thing, or maybe the entire, err.. whole enchilada... is that it is all about FAITH... if God started healing people left and right and so on... striking others dead.... most people would start to believe just because they saw... and others would start worshiping the things they saw. It would not be about faith. Kinda like, well, kinda, if ya gota dog, he will follow you Anywhere if you have food for him... that is kinda nice, but the dog is there for the food, not for you. But isent it better when the doggy comes over to you just to be with you?
So i am comparing us to dogs... do you get the point?


"There's always a bigger fish."

Exactly eyezaer & bunchapixels! <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

God gave us a brain to make choices. We all either believe in God or we don't. And you can't take God out of the bible as the bible is God's word.

I do feel all the answers you ask here are there. And they all boil down to REAL love, respect, morals and principles for all mankind that lead to LIFE.

Then as eyezaer stated, a simple word, faith. (but I do feel the healing etc does happen daily all around the world <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

So if you DID have everything, would you share it? Would you love God for who He is or what you want?

I didn't want to stir a pot here concerning religion so I didn't get into it in my first post as stated there...however, I felt it was brought up later in a way that upset me so I wanted to voice my opinion.

I know not everyone here agrees with me or even believes in God...that's your choice...but that's the answer *I* have.

If I'm wrong, I still have nothing to lose <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">




[This message has been edited by Shiiizzzam (edited 11-15-2000).]

edit... yeah, i meant very VERY obvious healing and the such... also i am not saying that God does not intervene... I was talking about Big Obvious ways and i meant to go more general than i did.



"There's always a bigger fish."

heh heh heh - i was waiting for you to get a hold of this thread shi, suprised it took you so long. <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

and im sorry ps - i know that last bit was a little too overdramatised, perhaps i shouldnt have opened myself up so much.

um, i can see this thread start to chase its own tail sometime soon, so i think ill just sit back and watch.
(and as each reader hits that sentence, a collective sigh is heard)

I thought it best to stand back as I said in the other topic. I have voiced *my* feelings and will stand strong in them. As I said, what do I have to lose but if I didn't believe and was wrong I have EVERYTHING to lose <img border=0 align=absmiddle src="http://www.ozones.com/forum/smile.gif">

~It's hard to stumble when you're on your knees~

you know what?

I talk to much.

I have realized that in my zeal to have the top word and search for different perspectives to my 'Truth, I have contradicted myself. I cannot research your 'Truth' by attacking it as if it were a math problem.

My bad if I made myself seem closed-minded. I was only trying to scrutinize your abilities to the max to squeeze the 'Truth' from the fluff. From now on, I will but observe and look it up if I have a doubt..

the lack of facial expressions make it kinda difficult, don't it?

tskull@techie.com">
"War is a series of disasters which result in a winner." --Georges Clemenceau
ICQ: 67751342