Preserved Topic: How do we wish to deal with rippers? (Page 2 of 2)

Ok, I think this idea is solid...and I'm on board...who else? Let's get this thing into gear. For those of you who are interested, have ideas, etc (and Ini, your coding skills could come in handy here...) let's get started...First, we need an outline...and we need to decide on some fundamental issues. Be aware I don't want to start some sort of 'witch-hunt' thing....just a way of moving information fast concerning proven rippers...perhaps we need some 'big' support here...Doc, what do you think? I've noticed that quite a few 'established' Asylumnites have been avoiding this thread...I feel that a news-service about proven rippers is a good idea, and if implimented properly, could be a big step in the direction of 'weeding out' (i.e. isolating) rippers...

If it is necessary to 'create' a new site, I'm willing to foot the cost...

If we truly believe in stopping/preventing/persuing/isolating rippers, then we have a duty to do something about it. The only way to go about it (IMHO) is to get as many on board as possible. Alone, we are weak, and easy to ignore...together, united, we can make a difference. This problem is not just an Asylum problem, or DeviantART problem, etc, it's a problem for all. Let's do something about it...now.

The way I see it, we need good ideas, a solid base to work from, and support from many webrings and forums, sites, etc. Let's first start from the beginning, one step at a time.

Who's on board? Maybe we should move this thread to somewhere else...or start a new one.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-09-2002).]

WS: Its a complex and involved issue and perhaps it does require its own site as pirated-sites seems to concentrate on only one area (visual similarity) and I think we do need to address not just blatant age rips but also graphics and text (and audio and video I suppose) so we are going to have to provide a more indepth overview of each case rather than just a few screenshots (although plenty of evidence is important - I noticed an number of times that people were demanding lots of proof so a well argued and presented case with lots of evidence is important). So here are my thoughts on things you'll need:

1. Some kind of 'report' on the rips. It can also act like a Hall of Shame.

2. A mailing list to alert people to potential problems - so they can get invovled in mailing hosts or just identifying the source of the stolen material.

3. Fairly strict guidleines on how things should progress - keep the emails polite and the action low key (at least initially) I don't think we want this kind of thing to spiral out of control - often a quick email will solve things.

4. A section on how the law pertains to this (Shi - any thoughts?)

5. A discussion on sampling and montage so we outline what we aren't going to go off chasing. Might want to mention things ike crediting sources for your work (we are going to have to be more responsoble too). We should always err on the side of caution.

6. Links to other good resources.

7. Something responsible hosts can sign themselves up to saying that they will tale all efforts to act quickly that kind of thing.

8. Something on tools to help prevent ripping (InI was working on somethig interesting the other week), help spot it when it occurs, how to track down offenders, etc.

Its your baby WS but you have my support on this one.

Emps

Thanks Emps, and that list was a good start...o.k. the ball is rolling...perhaps a website is required...any good ideas for a domain name?

As for that that Ini is working on...it's a great idea. Tho personally I don't think there is a 100% way to 'protect' ones property, having at least something is better than nothing..

And that about progressing against rippers slowly and precisely, with evidence first, is exactly what I meant..no 'witch-hunts', no 'hot-headedness'. This has to be done correctly, or no-one will take us seriously. And yes, I know how much work it is, to collect such evidence...that is why it would be such an advantage to have many working on it...cuts the work load. I have thought along the lines of having a 'news service', that could be presented on a variety of boards, webrings, etc. Of course, we will need major support for this...getting something started is one thing, but getting the support is another...one thing after another.

WS: You are right that one of the most important things is not letting things get out of hand. We need clear guidelines for goals, targets, methods, etc.

You have made quite a lot of contacts while chasing BSS' affiliates and so you might want to approach them for some kind of support/partnership.

Names? I like 'Jack the Rippers' but we might want to go for something like 'Ripper Report', etc. (although this might be a little too close to jack the Ripper websites.

No anti-theft device are 100% effective (and no right click scripts are annoying and encoding your HTML is just plain rude) but the more obstacles you put in their way (as long as it doesn't get in the way of legitimate people's uses) the less likely they are to steal your things.

Emps

is 'ripper report' free? And should it be a .com? Let me know, and I will reserve the name...I want this to succeed.

Yes, I've had a number of contacts (And thanks, BSS! Bet he didn't imagine that something like this would grow out of his ripping...), but first we need a good, solid fundament to build on. One thing that I've learned is, to get the thing together first before soliciting other sites, etc.

So I guess a website is necessary...so we start there, first. Guidelines are a must, as one can see above. Getting that together is very necessary. I feel that we have made a good start. Getting other involved in building and helping with the guidelines is for me the most important at this stage...it's very easy (as I learned during the BSS thing) to 'lose' one's perspective in the 'heat' of the hunt...and the DeviantART thing only reinforces that...having others to help balance that is a must...a case of 'not being able to see the forest for the tress' kind of thing. That must be avoided at all costs. I don't wish to start something that persecutes innocents....but instead punishes the guilty.

Keep the ideas coming, any help is appreciated.

Rippers, we are coming!

I'm on board and I'm willing to help.

I want to say, however, that I think placing someones name on a site and building evidence against them should be a method of last resort. There may are other ways to deal with a possible "ripper" that are not so heavy-handed. The critque process is one. An example is-

"I like the direction your going with that design but it looks a lot like soandso.com. You should probably play with it a little more so you can find your style."

Another is "taking it to email" with a couple of polite suggestions. I think this should be done before posting an accusation publiclly. It will give the person a chance to explain themselves privately without embarassment and maybe even save face on both sides. I think immediate public confrontation may create a more explosive situation. If a person is nervous about sending the email they could cc: another member involved with the project as kind of a witness. I think this would cutdown on the "witchhunt" perception also. I think if the first couple of confrontations are kept private there may be less hurt feelings on both sides.

-tiki

Ok, good point tikigod - and very reasonable. I like it. BTW - welcome on board.

For the website...well, we'll definitely need a DB...but which one? Any ideas?

WS: ripperreport.anything-I-could-think-of and ripper-report.ditto are all free.

PHP and MySQL would seem like a good option.

Emps

ripperreport.com sounds like a winner.

Who ya gonna call?
www.ripbusters.com

Apparently the most notorious ripper is from the U.K.
they even have a nickname for him
they call him, Jack, Jack the Ripper!
true story

Ok, ripperreport it is...just ordered the three domains ripperreport.com, .de, .org.

Need more information on MySQL...where can I get it?

I've been doing some thinking on this (big surprise). The search machines changed the way of doing websites, why not add a way to 'protect' (i.e. add protect through such a site as this one) ones site from ripping? Not only webrings and websites have this problem, but all the award sites must also be aware of this problem as well. If we can get them involved, it would be one step closer to going 'mainstream'. For the award sites, one could 'proof' submissions before they are 'awarded'...would give more 'weight' to the award, and after the experience that I have made with the BSS thing, it would appear that at least some rippers use the awards to 'pump' their sites...

Also, need some ideas as to the website itself (how should it look, logo, colors, etc). Any ideas, comments? And the coding....

It's starting to take form, now...

Also, considering past expierences (PSPong comes to mind...) I would like to make this a group effort. However, because I intend to see this thing happening, I would like to avoid some of the...obsticales that previous joint efforts have encountered. ideas in this direction would also be appreciated...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-10-2002).]

WS: Well you are quick off the mark there!!

MySQL will usually come with the hosting (I'll email you about that).

I have to confess I don't understand the paragraph about awards and search engines. I do think that most of the awards aren't worth the paper they aren't written on a legitimate ones probably take more care about who they award things to. It might be worth having a 'responsible awards' section where awards sign up to guarantee that they will make all efforts not to make an award to a ripper.

The problems that arose with PSPong have been avoided as there is someone actually in overall control of this project (like THE BOX). I'm thinking of dark colours although should we really go for a Jack the Ripper kind of feel? Might lend it a sinister edge?

Thoughts anyone?

Emps

Well, with the awards thing, I was mainly thinking along the lines of getting them involved...most rippers are people with low self-confidence and skills (or work for companies and under time pressure) and therefore are seeking acknowledgement...getting linked, getting into webrings, and awards...being able to provide a service for the good awards sites would help 'improve' the seriousness of the planned site...as for the search machines...well, today everyone wants to get listed...wouldn't it be nice if one could also 'get protected'? These are long-range plans, of course...one small step after another...

I would also love to have a search method of 'known' rippers, where one could find past perps fast...websites, names, or IP address...that would also be cool.

Ok, on with the ideas...how about some colors? Logo ideas? Layout? I'm open to suggestions...

I haven't contributed to this thread yet as most of my opinions has already been covered, but I thought it was time to show my support

I think that a dark and simple layout would suit the webpage...

-= Veneficuz =-
"Mundus vult decipi. Ergo decipiatur."

I like tikigod's posts to this thread. In addition to the need to provide a measured response, I think rippers don't deserve so much attention. For one thing, attention is exactly what they're seeking, and for another thing they already know they don't have skills; we don't need to tell them.

Of course, where I draw the line is when a Ripper makes money off of someone else's work, and to a lesser extent any time they get hired based on stolen examples. I think revealing rippers to the world is a valuable cause simply to prevent them from making a living off of such dishonorable means. I hope the goals of the project are focused on preventing people from being deceived by the ripper rather than vengeance against a person who doesn't even have enough self esteem to try to learn something legitimately.

I don't view this goal as a punishment to the ripper. In my eyes, the ripper punishes themselves by wasting their time doing something immoral when they could be learning something new and becoming a more skilled individual. Consider BSS if you will. He said a lot of incensing things just to piss us off, but why did he do what he did? Because he was jealous of other peoples' ability. Deep down inside he probably believed he was incapable of learning. He could go through life, be succesful through deceit, and maybe even convince himself that he had done pretty good for himself; but could he ever believe that he made the world a better place? Or that he had contributed something to the marketplace of ideas? These are my ideals (and many of us here I would imagine), somebody who doesn't believe in those things is not worth my time.




-jiblet

Hmmm...interesting point jiblet...however, I think you, like many, many others are missing the point entirely...this 'isn't' about rippers per se, it's about artists, coders, etc and how to protect ones creations...the ripper in question isn't going to 'go away' and die, in some small, dark corner of the world...quite the contrary. It's also about informing people...people that would otherwise be 'dubbed' by the ripper in question. And getting organized...saying no to ripping, and that we won't tolerate it. Ini has already done some investigating into digital means of protection...but found out that there are no 'good' digital protections out there, and doesn't seem likely to be any in the future...what can be digitally made, can be copied...so how do we protect against it? By establishing the idea that it is wrong in the minds of people and bringing these people together. Alone, we have very little influence on others...in numbers, we have much more of a chance of that. Information. It is the best protection...when enough know that one rips, it becomes very hard to remain in the mainstream. And when all know it....practically impossible. Of course, we can choose to ignore it, as you seem to imply (they are sorrowful individuals, etc.) and hope that it goes away...but I don't see that happening...and that is how dictators come to power...on the contrary, it isn't going to go away, it's becoming more and more commonplace...make a stand now, or join the ripping crowd tomorrow.

Why should they stop? And please don't forget that rippers influence others, as well. Picture this - newbie sees an established site, looks real nice (but is ripped). Nobody cares. What do you think the newbie will decide? To do all the hard work of learning how to do it (which takes time, patience and doesn't really 'grab' anyone's attention for a while), or rip it - overnight, he has oohs and aahs, is the spotlight and influences others further. 'Hey, look, you don't have to learn all that, are you stupid or what? Just rip it, like I and everyone else has.'

Now, regarding the 'money' issue...is that all it is to you, money? So if it doesn't involve money, it is not important? Does that mean that creating can only have meaning when it makes money? I don't believe that. And I would hope that most artists don't either.

To the point - this isn't about vengence. It's about getting organized, and shariing information. Changing peoples perspectives...not only showing that something can be done, but proving it. Removing the helplessness, and yes, challenging the lethargy on the issue. If you are against ripping, then do something about it. But what? There are so many rippers out there...how can I make a difference? And the work involved is really time-consuming, hell, I don't have time for it. But in numbers, vast numbers, we can and do. Information. It works. We just need to support it.

Example BSS - no, we didn't really change his mind (at least I don't think so), but that wasn't the point (though it would have been nice). We did change a lot of perspectives from his affiliates, boards and webrings. That in turn did have an affect...the desired affect - he removed that which was proven ripped. Against his will. And lost a lot of that which he thought he had 'gained' i.e. respect. But he, and others, are still out there...waiting. Waiting for us to 'forget'. Waiting for time to 'smooth over' the past...to rise again. Once again, information. It won't go away, it can be stored...and called back up whenever needed.

And that is the core point of my idea. I'm not interested in a digital crusade. I'm not interested in a world-wide-web inquisition. I'm interested in providing information to any who feel they need it...so that they can protect themselves. It could work. It just needs support. It is a way of 'streamlining' the way we persue rippers now. Take out the hard work involved, and let people have an easier way of informing themselves. Giving them the needed information, and letting them decide.

Consider this - what if you had this report on your site...and a report came out that someone had ripped something of yours. Now you know what and who. You don't have to search for it, spend hours, days, weeks investigating it. And you also know that you have the support of vast numbers of people, people that will help you. Communities, webrings, individual sites, all on your side. Suddenly, when you speak out against the ripper, your voice is carried by the multitudes...your choice. Or you can continue like you are now...alone against the vast numbers of faceless rippers. Yes, you have this community....and maybe a couple of others. But as you can see in the case of BSS, we couldn't really do much about him. Oh, sure, we had some success. We do have some numbers here. But he is still there, still has ripped stuff, is still soliciting 'unknowing' associates...and there are many, many more like him out there. How do you intend to protect yourself against this? E-mails? Nasty threats? Threatened lawsuits? Each and every time? As your skills grow, your site becomes more 'popular', and you earn more respect in the net, the more prominant that you are, the more likely that you will be 'targeted' by rippers. Are you going to go through this process with each and every ripper? They have much more time and energy than you do (do the math). Do you wish to spend your time persuing rippers, instead of doing that which you enjoy? And if it is money that is important to you, just how much does all this cost? Lost hours...maybe lost lawsuits.

So think about it.

Maybe I am just shouting 'wolf'. Maybe the ripping thing is just a fad. Maybe...but what if it isn't? My experiences have shown me that it is a real threat. And I am doing something about it. Would it hurt you to consider supporting the idea? Or at least giving it a chance? I see absolutely no risk for you at all to consider this. I do see a risk if you do not.

But it is your choice.

Its not about vengenace. If it can be sorted out with a quiet email then that is good enough for me.

As well as the things WS said it will be a chance to bring together information for people who have been ripped (esp. about how the law applies) and to just let them know they aren't alone.

It is a serious issue and has cropped up here time and time again (ignoring recent events):
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000729-1-000124.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000729-1-000133.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010412-1-001218.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001747.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001759.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010814-1-002020.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001718.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010413-1-001320.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000802-1-000247.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000905-1-000141.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000529-1-000028.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001761.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000729-1-000132.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20001231-1-000608.html

If we have a problem there always seems to be numerous people here who can help with the problem and supply support but some people are out there without that kind of network and I'm sure they'd be grateful for a site that tells them they aren't alone, provides whatever help they want (tools for tracking down ripper or host information, standardised letters, help if intial emails don't work, etc.).

Emps

I don't think money should be the bottom line but if people are offering other people's hard work for sale as their own then that is another aspect to the whole problem - they aren't just hurting themselves and the online community but they are also defrauding clients.

If we are going to write up the worst cases as actual reports (which I think is important - pirated-sites just really names and shames but a more detailled report on persistent offenders, people who take things down wait until the heat is off and then put everything back up again, etc. will have educational benefit and show the best strategies in different cases) we should cut people little slack who are doing this kind of thing commercially.

Emps

indeed...

To Live is To Die...

from up your own arse you mean. If you hadn't guessed Bull Shit Spinner, your presence is not welcome here anymore...oh, and no one finds your little activites funny, no one except you. Doesn't it feel GREAT to know that you're all alone in your own little fantasy land where you rule and death to the others, where as back here in reality, you are a small, insignificant worm that is but a piddling annoyance.

Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 05-11-2002).]

"My experiences have shown me that it is a real threat. And I am doing something about it." i dont think you should handle it by calling them niggers. plus webshamen doesnt have room to talk because his site is using a template.

I don't know who you are starbucks3710, but if you have a problem with my site, then please show us what you mean...what is a 'template' on my site, please?

Also, I never called anybody that name...

quote:

---

i dont think you should handle it by calling them niggers.

---

That is uncalled for. Period. Suggesting such racial undertones here is way out of line...
You do realize what exactly you have posted here, don't you? Everyone can see this...are you absolutely sure you wish to use your first post for something like this? It's a great way to get a negative reaction, is that what you want?...so think about it.

you posted on www.durandall.org in his shoutbox racial slurs such as that. dont lie, maybe it wasnt you but someone used your same name and website as you and posted this "WebShaman: Hey pussies! why not battle me on my forum and let's see what u've got..rippers! http://www.ozonea
sylum.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics" also because durandall.org has an african american on the front of the site. you (webshamen) posted that that was durandall's "nigger" boyfriend. so would you please clar this up.

starbucks3710: You should be aware that quite a number of inmates posted messages to BSS' site and had them changed - the shoutbox also contained quite a few made up messages acreddited to people who didn't post them (in fact they all were done in pretty similar writing styles).

Don't believe everything you read - esp. online where it is very easy to fake user names (esp. in the shout box).

Emps

BSS, I love tenaciousness. I am really amused that you showed up to get kicked a bit more. I must admit some disappointment that you had to create a seperate identity to try and troll a bit but seeing your ripper self posting in this thread more than compensated for it.

WebShaman this should allay your concerns that you could ever go 'too far' with rippers. Too far is showing up at his address with a baseball bat and a smile, anything prior to that is fair game.



[This message has been edited by moaiz (edited 05-11-2002).]

While I have tried to be moderate in my views in how to deal rippers I have only one thing to say about this situation:

"Private Shaman feel free to stomp Private Sundays guts out." <edit-metaphorically>

Starbucks I really wish you hadn't decided to bring that baggage into this debate. I doubt WS posted that. I think it might have been sombody who hates WS and who craves a great deal of attention:

*tikigod points his boat drink in BSS's direction*

I hope you can clear this up. Im sorry that your introduction to the Asylum was so negative. You'll find that there are good people here. So grab a straitjacket and some little black pills and enjoy your stay.

-tiki



[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 05-11-2002).]

ok well i apoligize but he said to come to this forum and "battle" him and he said that i ripped when i didnt because all i ahve on my site is asians. so a apoligize and if you could, can the real webshamen post on my shoutbox and say it is him so i can tell his ip from the false webshamen. sorry for bringing this here i just was lead by his shout.

starbucks3710: Don't worry too much about that BSS' games probably spread far and wide (have a read of some of the threads connected with him here) and forging names on shoutboxes is the least of it (whatever you think of WS he doesn't right like Cartman) - if it is your site with the shoutbox (nice site by the way) then I'd consider removing him from your affiliates box below the shoutbox.

Anyway - stick around and ask questions.

Emps

i will remove him immeaditly and what is thwith bss? if i am affiliated wit him why would someone post on my box saying racial slurs? is it bss? also when he tries to make fun of my site can you guys at least try to stand up for me because he is claiming he came from here/

starbucks3710: Its his way of stirring up trouble and causing confusion and misunderstandings. Take screenshots of any abuse of your site and send them to WS. If you can get his IP you could try blocking it. Email him and just say politely that you know what his game is and you'll just remove his posts when he adds. Be warned your shoutbox is open to abuse and if things 'hot up' then you may need to pull it for a week or so or think about having people log in (which rather spoils the idea of the thing. Don't post messages on his guestbook as they have been re-edited and don't do any good anyway. If you know of anyone else affiliated with him or anywhere where he posts on a regular basis then you could let them know about his games as they might get similar posts to yourself.

We'll lend you what support we can - our best advice to to largely ignore him and just remove any offensive posts he makes. Keep us informed if he tries any other tricks.

Emps

Basically BSS is trying his damdest (probably the only thing he's ever tried hard at in his life) to ruin the image of our members and the asylum itself by going out into the net and posting shit under our names ot make it look like we're a bunch of KKK, neo-nazi, racist, etc., assholes who [bullshit]*puts on puppy dog eyes and big, quivering, sticking out bottom lip* go after poor, innicent little web designers who did nothing wrong except putting their talent and original work out there.[/bullshit] He's trying...and having the tiniest bit of success in osme places (hence your visit here), but then we invite all those who would beleive him to come here and review our evidence against him.

It's cool though. Just so long as you've stopped believing him...we're fine



Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

and on that note....new thread!

Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live