Preserved Topic: How do we wish to deal with rippers? (Page 1 of 2)

After reading through the 'debacle' at DeviantArt, my thoughts are mixed. How should we here at the Asylum deal with this problem? In the past, it has (with the exception of the recent 'BSS' episode) always been from someone outside of the community. And even BSS was just a newcomer, that was speedily 'isolated' from here. No, I mean what do we do in the case that a 'real' member here is involved in ripping?

Now, maybe there are those who question why I am posting this. Why am I posting this? Because the 'rip kiddies' problem is growing. That has become evident to me through the episode with BSS. Combined with the recent events at DeviantArt, I feel that we should at least discuss this before such a case happens here. Let us attempt to learn from what has happened at DeviantArt, and take appropriate action before it has a chance to 'damage' our community here in a similar event.

To uphold the reputation that this community has (and I would like to believe that we have a reputation of being good, hard-working, learning the old way (through honest means) designers, coders, artists, etc., as the good ol' Doc would have it), maybe we should consider how we influence the 'outside' world for a minute.

Do we have an obligation to uphold (and expect) such from our members? Or am I deluding myself here? In the past, we have always 'policed' our own. However, our numbers are growing steadily. Of course, in comparison to DeviantArt we are quite small, but perhaps that will not always be so...and with numbers, comes the increased chance (almost the certainty) that such a case will become a reality here.

Will we 'degenerate' into a 'mob' of howling finger pointers, shouting at each other, shoot-the-messenger type of mentalities? Or will we stand fast in the face of such a case, and solidly expose the person in question? Will we splinter into different groups, each attacking the others? Or will we stand up strong together, and denounce the perp?

And that is why I post this now. To see what kind of reaction this brings. For it could be the forerunner of what may come. What is certain to come. It is only a matter of time and numbers...

Thank you for at least taking the time to read my dribble. Comments would be appreciated....even necessary. Please take the time to at least think about it.

...we start a fund so we can fly a strike team of 3-5 asylumites to the rippers location. We arrive with a bucket, we fill it with fish and we slap the holy bejeesus out of the ripper...problem solved.

Seriously, I think its almost a waste to persist in interaction with the ripper, they get one cease-and-desist e-mail and then its on to the host. I think it is unrealistic to expect to engage someone who steals artwork in an e-mail. Something like, "Remove/Change it now, this will be your only warning." Perhaps the collective we should draft a nice threatening letter with heavy copyright infirngment overtones that will cause the host to pull ANY ripper without hesitation for fear of legal repercussions.

I suggest the same as moaiz said.

Write them an email nicely with one
warning about his RIP...and it is important
in our "crazy" world to do it in a
good mood..

Our planet is going to be overloaded wiht
warezKids which just dl ps and give it 10min
to test the filters.....after that they got st like

GUlbuers Design, Design by Guluuuus....etc.

I hope this will be better in the future :-d

cu
~Xdreamer.ch~
-------------------------------
to stupid for transparent sigs

Yes, something along these lines is what I was thinking about...Doc is against banning, and I think as a whole, so is the community. However, faced with the possiblility that someone here was a ripper...I am wondering how to proceed, without losing the human element, i.e. without becoming a raving mob spewing abuse and worse. As I recall from the last 'incident', I wasn't all that successful in 'maintaining' my rationality and self-composure. This, combined with what I saw at DeviantArt, has alarmed me. I do not wish to be some 'crusader' of right, trampeling the wrong-doers under foot (or tomahawk) come what may. Instead, I believe in a principle, that it is wrong to rip (i.e. steal). Deciding now on how to deal with such things could go a long way to heading off behaving like some sort of 'lynch-posse', and also avoid accusing others of wrong-doing (or of being a part thereof) before due process (i.e. concrete evidence). I know that I am guilty of the last. It was very easy for me to get 'carried away' in the heat of things...and I wish to avoid that in the future.

Establishing guidelines for such an event might help to maintain level-headness, and therefore fairplay. After all, it could be you at the other end of the 'barrel'. Or me. Or anyone, just like in the 'witchhunts' of old. And that must be avoided at all costs.

At this point we have the E-mail warning. I'm all for that. And just how do we proceed after that?

WS: I think anyone who is an established member of the community knows how much we dislike ripping and probably wouldn't dream of doing something like that. If they did then it would probably be due to a misunderstanding, stupidity, a lack of appreciation of our strong feelings on this, etc. and a quick email and an explanation of how wrong this is if that doesn't work would work for all but the most stubborn a**holes (it worked in the one case I can think of - naming no names!!). Once you got a reputation like that then no-one is going to waste their time helping you and other people will be outright rude to your face everytime you pop up and one might as well find another community to hang out in.

So I don't see there really being a need for anything strict or formal - we'll just play it by ear. As I said in the thread on BSS in the MS forum it might be worth drawing up some guidelines for when people rip an inmate so we can swing into action a bit quicker.

Emps

Yes Emps, I totally agree on drawing up guidelines. However, I must disagree with your statement that everyone here 'knows' it is wrong to rip and therefore will not.

I think the case that DeviantArt had clearly proves that this is not so. Not suggesting that someone here will (or has) started, but considering that our communities are growing, and that the 'rip kiddies' generation is upon us (where many have the opinon that ripping is ok, even 'normal', and see no wrongdoing in ripping), I think that we should be prepared for the unthinkable : that it will actually happen here, or in the GN. This is (and remains) my premises.

Therefore, I feel that we, as communities, should establish a way of dealing with this eventuality. Other communities have (DeviantArt had, as well, but it didn't stop the 'ordeal' from happening...if you haven't read the thread, then I suggest that you do. It's a real eye-opener...).

To put it plainly - what happened at DeviantArt is not something I would like to see happen here, neither the ripping nor (more importantly) the 'rips' of the social fabric of the community. There can be nothing worse than seeing the community torn apart, with people at each others throats over something along these lines, leaving deep, long-lasting wounds that can only (if ever) be healed over time...and while we can't stop someone from ripping, maybe we can stop (before it happens) the community from being dragged through such an experience...by good, solid, tested guidelines that work. After all, we have guidelines on warez and pornography that work...why not for ripping?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-07-2002).]

I second Emp's thoughts. Majority of established members will be 'smart' enough to know the fur will fly and I doubt it would ever happen. And if it did happen, they would quickly be tarred and feathered here on the boards until they finally left.

I appreciate your concern WS, but I think we could, at the most, just establish a down and dirty policy for rippers in general and let it go at that.

I agree with the email idea, but will it be a flood of emails from the members here, or one email 'signed' by the majority of members here, or one email from one representative from here? I like the idea of one email 'signed' by the members here ... kinda depends on Doc's thoughts, though. Do we represent the Aylumn and by default Doc, or do we represent ourselves? Am I making any sense?

WS: I'd be foolish indeed if that were true:

quote:

---

I must disagree with your statement that everyone here 'knows' it is wrong to rip and therefore will not.

---

when I said:

quote:

---

I think anyone who is an established member of the community knows how much we dislike ripping and probably wouldn't dream of doing something like that.

---

I meant that there probably are people here who would but they'd be less likely to do such a thing in an obvious way and would be more likely to take it down when we pointed it out. If they didn't then they clearly aren't an 'established member' - we get quite a lot of people drfiting through and out again and there isn't a lot we can do about their ripping except let them know we don't approve.

If an inmate was ripping and wouldn't take things down then we just treat it the same way we would any other case of ripping (as happened with BSS).

Emps

Ok, Emps, I understand, no hard feelings. Thanks for clearing my misunderstanding up.

To the E-mail thing...just how would one go about introducing a 'signed' by all E-mail? By doing a thread and then copy-n-paste from all that posted to it? I find the idea intriguing...how would one go about implimenting it?

I think it'll take care of itself... this community has stood its tests and has proven a strong resilience to issues as such... when the time comes, the crime, the victim and the purveyor will dictate the appropriate course of action...

We're not a police force, nor are we a lynching mob...


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

2winspapa

Already delt with it once here. We persued the same course of action.

WS: Defintely no hard feelings - I hadn't been clear enough

I'm not sure about a collective email - its easy to ignore but individual messages expressing concern would be more effective.

I agree with PS that we should play this by ear. They are a member of our community and we should have some infuence over them - it depends on who they are and what they've done. The best piece of advice would be to email the inmate first rather than posting here as these kind of things can usually be dealt with quickly without making an issue of things.

Emps

I got a new mouse pad today! Wee hee ee......

Ok, that is also a good idea. The question is...who does the 'quiet mailing'? The person with the first evidence?

Warmage...don't think I know about the '2winspapa' thing...did it happen before I joined? Or was that someone outside of the Asylum?

WS: That was my general idea - if possible I'd like to see it dealt with without too much fuss being made - as I say most of the time it will be due to stupidity or ignorance. If it was me I'd probably consult a few people to see if my suspicions were confirmed and then email them. Then again it might not come up in that way - so we should remain flexible.

I did a quick check and couldn't find anything on 2winspapa in this context.

Emps

My mouse pad is grey just incase ya wanted to know.

*turns to Drac*
does it have a picture on it?


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Oh yeach Drac! One of my clients gave me one of theirs. It is maroon with white text

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

Drac: You didn't RIP that mouse pad, did you?!

No no, I bought it! Cost me all a $5 bucks AU.

No writing, no pictures, just flat 50% Grey.

Oh, is has rounded corners too. And it's the first mouse pad I actually ever bought. All my other ones were either flogged from work, school or friends. But ya see, this one's actually new and clean and stuff!!! eh, I get excited easily....

Maybe I should give it a name. My mouse is called Optee. So I think I'll call the Mouse-Pad Patrick. Yah, I like that.

Optee and Patrick.... Hmmm, Actually I think one of them should be female. I don't want to change Opee's name, that's just be crule. He'd have a major identity crisis, and I need him to work and work well. So Patrick can become Partika!

Hang on, it's that an Indian Spice, ya know da one's they use in curry's and stuff..... eh, She can be an Indian mouse-pad, I don't really mind. She's grey and has round corners!!

Hmmm.... Needlessly Happy 4:00 am sleep deprived me is gonna try and get some sleep now.

eh, get some sleep and get out from underneath my chair. My mouse pad at home has poodles on it! Kell's idea, not mine

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

I let mine rome around... I dont confine it to a pad. hahahaha. beat that.

. . .

I bought a new optical mouse, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work. No matter which way I look the cursor just sits in one place, and that bright light hurts when I hold it up to my eye. "Ow! My eye!"

I also try to keep my poodles off the mousepad, as they have a tendency to shed.



[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 05-08-2002).]

Isn't hte Indian Spice Paprika, not Patrika?

Also: On that collective email thing...how about this. We all send an email, signed by everybody. I shows us as a united front if we all send the email with the same ending (ie: all of our names), rather than alot of people all tlaking about the same thing.

Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 05-08-2002).]

Hmm... I thought paprika was Hungarian.

And I like the collective e-mail idea with everyone signing.

Prolly before most of you jointed, this was when the site was at a member count of maybe 300, 400.

He was a prominent member of the board.

Doc found him to have taken his entire site and had it up and online at his domain.

Doc took care of most of it since it was his site.

2winspapa was never kicked, but for some reason never came back...

Maybe just changed usernames?

I take it that wasn't the guy in Croatia that had 'stolen' Docs entire site...wow, so many out there, stealin' Docs stuff...

I suppose in a way you must be doing something right if so many people want to rip your site but it is such an well-known and distinctive look.

Doc: Have you kept screenshots of the various offenders? Just from memory I can think of 4 or 5 that have done - a little gallery of rips might be fun.

There might even be a prize for most rips. I notice that on the main page at:
www.pirated-sites.com

they list the rips of this site (11!!):
www.2advanced.com

and that is some competition!!

I notice Glish and Noah Grey get a few mentions too!!

Emps

WS said:

quote:

---

I take it that wasn't the guy in Croatia

---

Nope Alaska.

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

Well, i remember the name of 2winspapa, but I don't ever remember being here when he/she was here...think that was in the archives somewhere (the name).

Ok, we have the mail thing...any ideas on how to impliment it? I kinda like the idea of a 'mass' mail thing. Just wondering how to set it up.

Emps after looking at pirated-sites.com's copies of 2advanced's site. I have a question:

When is a site considered "Ripped"?

Two of the examples posted(www.prtbl.com and cnetcomm.com) I would argue are "inspired by" 2advanced but are not direct copies of the site. They imitate the style and layout but the graphics are their own. While BSS was a jackass, stealing artwork and the laughing about it, I dont believe every "ripper" may be the same.

Some people may be new to design and simply emulating what they like. When I wanted to draw comics(a long time ago- see age thread) I copied a lot of John Byrnes style. This helped me learn perspective and anatomy. I was learning, not ripping. Also others may be borrowing from the same style or era (I am designing a site now for James Brown using alot of 70's motiffs, alot of people have used these, we're not ripping one another but borrowing from the same sources).

I guess Im worried that less experienced artists may be discouraged from posting because somebody might recognize the site or artwork that they emulated and then call them a "ripper."

Of course may be the only answer may be what the Supreme Court said about pornography-"I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

-tiki



[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 05-09-2002).]

tikigod: Its a very good point and we should be careful that we focus on full site rips and the most flagrant examples of people passing off straight rips as their own work. We'd wear ourselves getting worked up over minor issues which have innocent explanations.

Emps

It is agrey area and if we go around chasing every little thing we'll end up like the boy who cried wolf and people will just ignore us. We should also be prepared to stand up for inmates who are legitimately using montage/sampling in their work. I think people might be able to help themselves too by keeping a little credit page going on there site which notes the source of images used (its what people have to do wth samples in music these days). If someone did accuse you of ripping a credit page could go a long way to taking the heat off you.

Emps

This reason, among others, is exactly what I meant when I decided to post this thread...here is where we start making tough decisions on definition before it becomes a problem...in a case like that of BSS, the decision is simple, because it is rather obvious. Other decisions are not so cut-and-dried : is it really ripped?

And here is where discussing it before it happens comes in handy. We can talk about the topic without being emotionally influenced by an event. 'Gray' areas are always tough to define...

OK, here's my two cents on plagiarism, looking at it from a different perspective. I don't know if this will help in the current discussion, but sometimes it is helpful to take a different approach to a problem.

In my field, academia, plagiarism (i.e., "ripping") is a huge faux pas. There are basically two types of plagiarism: direct and indirect. In direct plagiarism, the person basically lifts a passage directly from a source and inserts it into their own work without quotation marks and without citation. This happens mostly in student papers--very rarely will an established scholar engage in this sort of activity. Indirect plagiarism, on the other hand, involves a person taking an idea or concept that was previously published and using it in their work without citation, even if they paraphrase it. This is a much easier trap to fall into, and scholars will sometimes be guilty of this sort of plagiarism through carelessness (not properly citing sources), and on occasion by deliberate intent.

It is difficult to draw the line between direct and indirect plagiarism. The reason for that is that it is difficult to define how much you have to change the text in order for it to be considered a paraphrase. This issue, though, is pretty much moot because it is all plagiarism. It doesn't matter if you lift the passage directly from an Internet paper, make subtle changes to a published passage, or completely paraphrase an idea--it's all plagiarism.

Of course, there is common knowledge, and this does not need to be cited. Anything else, though, needs a citation. Passing the work of other's off as your own, no matter how it may be altered, is plagiarism, plain and simple.

How does this relate to the issue at hand? Well, I am not an expert on graphics ripping, but here is how I would look at it. Maybe I'm being a bit naive, but I'm just trying to apply what I know about ripping from another field. I think that if you use someone else's graphics--no matter how you may mutilate or change them, you need to at the very least cite the author (and get permission, if possible). Imitating a style, on the other hand, is not ripping as long as the content is different. For example, if I wrote a novel in Hemingway's style, no one would accuse me of being a plagiarist (although they might accuse me of being weird). However, if I made some minor changes to The Old Man and the Sea and tried to publish it as my original work, all hell would break loose. I think this same principle works for entire sites as well as for just graphics.

tikigod said it perfectly: "we're not ripping one another but borrowing from the same sources." The 70s motifs in question could be considered to be in the realm of common property. I also agree with Emps about a credits page. This is how one covers one's butt in academia; I don't see why it can't be done on the web.

Well, I don't know if it's a significant contribution to the discussion, but that's my take on the subject.

actually, suho, I think Hemingway is dead for more than 70 years, wish *should* put his works into the public domain, so you could do whatever you wish with it.

But then, Disney and Co are working hard to get that part removed from copyright law (ie. things never become public domain...)

so long,

Tyberius Prime

One other thing I would like to run past you guys...how do we go about 'joining' together all the boards, affiliates, etc, to share information about rippers? IMHO this would be one of the most potent forms of 'prosecuting' rippers...especially for setting examples, etc, for future rippers...

It bothers me to no end, that 'rippers' even those who have been 'caught', can continue to solicit affilites, because these 'affiliates' don't know that the person in question is a ripper...it would be very effective if one could 'streamline' the information about rippers and insure that the information made its way rapidly through the net...from board to board, from webring to webring...that would go a long way to preventing a ripper from continuing...and set the scene to discourage others from ripping...

With all the types of coding possibilities nowdays, it must surely be easy enough to do that...isolating rippers from the communities and getting the word out.

Any ideas?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-09-2002).]

I think pirated-sites has a good idea, but poorly implemented.

I think maybe a news letter type deal would work well, where we go to different active webmasters and tell them about it and ask them to join.

Could even do a website on this, but that might be a bit much.

Thanks for the nitpick, TP

Hemingway was just off the top of my head. But you get the idea.

I think Warmage is right on the money there - pirated-sites has its plus points but poor navigation and a slight lack of focus (there is a lot of the front page devoted to other matters). I think another web site might be overkill (but it is an option) - I like the idea of a news letter (RipAlert) and pos. getting the people behind pirated-sites on board (I think it would be a good idea to co-ordinate things through them) and as I said here:
www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum15/HTML/000061.html

a way of making big hosts actually take this situation seriously.

Emps