Preserved Topic: How do we wish to deal with rippers?

After reading through the 'debacle' at DeviantArt, my thoughts are mixed. How should we here at the Asylum deal with this problem? In the past, it has (with the exception of the recent 'BSS' episode) always been from someone outside of the community. And even BSS was just a newcomer, that was speedily 'isolated' from here. No, I mean what do we do in the case that a 'real' member here is involved in ripping?

Now, maybe there are those who question why I am posting this. Why am I posting this? Because the 'rip kiddies' problem is growing. That has become evident to me through the episode with BSS. Combined with the recent events at DeviantArt, I feel that we should at least discuss this before such a case happens here. Let us attempt to learn from what has happened at DeviantArt, and take appropriate action before it has a chance to 'damage' our community here in a similar event.

To uphold the reputation that this community has (and I would like to believe that we have a reputation of being good, hard-working, learning the old way (through honest means) designers, coders, artists, etc., as the good ol' Doc would have it), maybe we should consider how we influence the 'outside' world for a minute.

Do we have an obligation to uphold (and expect) such from our members? Or am I deluding myself here? In the past, we have always 'policed' our own. However, our numbers are growing steadily. Of course, in comparison to DeviantArt we are quite small, but perhaps that will not always be so...and with numbers, comes the increased chance (almost the certainty) that such a case will become a reality here.

Will we 'degenerate' into a 'mob' of howling finger pointers, shouting at each other, shoot-the-messenger type of mentalities? Or will we stand fast in the face of such a case, and solidly expose the person in question? Will we splinter into different groups, each attacking the others? Or will we stand up strong together, and denounce the perp?

And that is why I post this now. To see what kind of reaction this brings. For it could be the forerunner of what may come. What is certain to come. It is only a matter of time and numbers...

Thank you for at least taking the time to read my dribble. Comments would be appreciated....even necessary. Please take the time to at least think about it.

...we start a fund so we can fly a strike team of 3-5 asylumites to the rippers location. We arrive with a bucket, we fill it with fish and we slap the holy bejeesus out of the ripper...problem solved.

Seriously, I think its almost a waste to persist in interaction with the ripper, they get one cease-and-desist e-mail and then its on to the host. I think it is unrealistic to expect to engage someone who steals artwork in an e-mail. Something like, "Remove/Change it now, this will be your only warning." Perhaps the collective we should draft a nice threatening letter with heavy copyright infirngment overtones that will cause the host to pull ANY ripper without hesitation for fear of legal repercussions.

I suggest the same as moaiz said.

Write them an email nicely with one
warning about his RIP...and it is important
in our "crazy" world to do it in a
good mood..

Our planet is going to be overloaded wiht
warezKids which just dl ps and give it 10min
to test the filters.....after that they got st like

GUlbuers Design, Design by Guluuuus....etc.

I hope this will be better in the future :-d

cu
~Xdreamer.ch~
-------------------------------
to stupid for transparent sigs

Yes, something along these lines is what I was thinking about...Doc is against banning, and I think as a whole, so is the community. However, faced with the possiblility that someone here was a ripper...I am wondering how to proceed, without losing the human element, i.e. without becoming a raving mob spewing abuse and worse. As I recall from the last 'incident', I wasn't all that successful in 'maintaining' my rationality and self-composure. This, combined with what I saw at DeviantArt, has alarmed me. I do not wish to be some 'crusader' of right, trampeling the wrong-doers under foot (or tomahawk) come what may. Instead, I believe in a principle, that it is wrong to rip (i.e. steal). Deciding now on how to deal with such things could go a long way to heading off behaving like some sort of 'lynch-posse', and also avoid accusing others of wrong-doing (or of being a part thereof) before due process (i.e. concrete evidence). I know that I am guilty of the last. It was very easy for me to get 'carried away' in the heat of things...and I wish to avoid that in the future.

Establishing guidelines for such an event might help to maintain level-headness, and therefore fairplay. After all, it could be you at the other end of the 'barrel'. Or me. Or anyone, just like in the 'witchhunts' of old. And that must be avoided at all costs.

At this point we have the E-mail warning. I'm all for that. And just how do we proceed after that?

WS: I think anyone who is an established member of the community knows how much we dislike ripping and probably wouldn't dream of doing something like that. If they did then it would probably be due to a misunderstanding, stupidity, a lack of appreciation of our strong feelings on this, etc. and a quick email and an explanation of how wrong this is if that doesn't work would work for all but the most stubborn a**holes (it worked in the one case I can think of - naming no names!!). Once you got a reputation like that then no-one is going to waste their time helping you and other people will be outright rude to your face everytime you pop up and one might as well find another community to hang out in.

So I don't see there really being a need for anything strict or formal - we'll just play it by ear. As I said in the thread on BSS in the MS forum it might be worth drawing up some guidelines for when people rip an inmate so we can swing into action a bit quicker.

Emps

Yes Emps, I totally agree on drawing up guidelines. However, I must disagree with your statement that everyone here 'knows' it is wrong to rip and therefore will not.

I think the case that DeviantArt had clearly proves that this is not so. Not suggesting that someone here will (or has) started, but considering that our communities are growing, and that the 'rip kiddies' generation is upon us (where many have the opinon that ripping is ok, even 'normal', and see no wrongdoing in ripping), I think that we should be prepared for the unthinkable : that it will actually happen here, or in the GN. This is (and remains) my premises.

Therefore, I feel that we, as communities, should establish a way of dealing with this eventuality. Other communities have (DeviantArt had, as well, but it didn't stop the 'ordeal' from happening...if you haven't read the thread, then I suggest that you do. It's a real eye-opener...).

To put it plainly - what happened at DeviantArt is not something I would like to see happen here, neither the ripping nor (more importantly) the 'rips' of the social fabric of the community. There can be nothing worse than seeing the community torn apart, with people at each others throats over something along these lines, leaving deep, long-lasting wounds that can only (if ever) be healed over time...and while we can't stop someone from ripping, maybe we can stop (before it happens) the community from being dragged through such an experience...by good, solid, tested guidelines that work. After all, we have guidelines on warez and pornography that work...why not for ripping?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-07-2002).]

I second Emp's thoughts. Majority of established members will be 'smart' enough to know the fur will fly and I doubt it would ever happen. And if it did happen, they would quickly be tarred and feathered here on the boards until they finally left.

I appreciate your concern WS, but I think we could, at the most, just establish a down and dirty policy for rippers in general and let it go at that.

I agree with the email idea, but will it be a flood of emails from the members here, or one email 'signed' by the majority of members here, or one email from one representative from here? I like the idea of one email 'signed' by the members here ... kinda depends on Doc's thoughts, though. Do we represent the Aylumn and by default Doc, or do we represent ourselves? Am I making any sense?

WS: I'd be foolish indeed if that were true:

quote:

---

I must disagree with your statement that everyone here 'knows' it is wrong to rip and therefore will not.

---

when I said:

quote:

---

I think anyone who is an established member of the community knows how much we dislike ripping and probably wouldn't dream of doing something like that.

---

I meant that there probably are people here who would but they'd be less likely to do such a thing in an obvious way and would be more likely to take it down when we pointed it out. If they didn't then they clearly aren't an 'established member' - we get quite a lot of people drfiting through and out again and there isn't a lot we can do about their ripping except let them know we don't approve.

If an inmate was ripping and wouldn't take things down then we just treat it the same way we would any other case of ripping (as happened with BSS).

Emps

Ok, Emps, I understand, no hard feelings. Thanks for clearing my misunderstanding up.

To the E-mail thing...just how would one go about introducing a 'signed' by all E-mail? By doing a thread and then copy-n-paste from all that posted to it? I find the idea intriguing...how would one go about implimenting it?

I think it'll take care of itself... this community has stood its tests and has proven a strong resilience to issues as such... when the time comes, the crime, the victim and the purveyor will dictate the appropriate course of action...

We're not a police force, nor are we a lynching mob...


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

2winspapa

Already delt with it once here. We persued the same course of action.

WS: Defintely no hard feelings - I hadn't been clear enough

I'm not sure about a collective email - its easy to ignore but individual messages expressing concern would be more effective.

I agree with PS that we should play this by ear. They are a member of our community and we should have some infuence over them - it depends on who they are and what they've done. The best piece of advice would be to email the inmate first rather than posting here as these kind of things can usually be dealt with quickly without making an issue of things.

Emps

I got a new mouse pad today! Wee hee ee......

Ok, that is also a good idea. The question is...who does the 'quiet mailing'? The person with the first evidence?

Warmage...don't think I know about the '2winspapa' thing...did it happen before I joined? Or was that someone outside of the Asylum?

WS: That was my general idea - if possible I'd like to see it dealt with without too much fuss being made - as I say most of the time it will be due to stupidity or ignorance. If it was me I'd probably consult a few people to see if my suspicions were confirmed and then email them. Then again it might not come up in that way - so we should remain flexible.

I did a quick check and couldn't find anything on 2winspapa in this context.

Emps

My mouse pad is grey just incase ya wanted to know.

*turns to Drac*
does it have a picture on it?


Harmonizing new illusions...
ICQ: 67751342

Oh yeach Drac! One of my clients gave me one of theirs. It is maroon with white text

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

Drac: You didn't RIP that mouse pad, did you?!

No no, I bought it! Cost me all a $5 bucks AU.

No writing, no pictures, just flat 50% Grey.

Oh, is has rounded corners too. And it's the first mouse pad I actually ever bought. All my other ones were either flogged from work, school or friends. But ya see, this one's actually new and clean and stuff!!! eh, I get excited easily....

Maybe I should give it a name. My mouse is called Optee. So I think I'll call the Mouse-Pad Patrick. Yah, I like that.

Optee and Patrick.... Hmmm, Actually I think one of them should be female. I don't want to change Opee's name, that's just be crule. He'd have a major identity crisis, and I need him to work and work well. So Patrick can become Partika!

Hang on, it's that an Indian Spice, ya know da one's they use in curry's and stuff..... eh, She can be an Indian mouse-pad, I don't really mind. She's grey and has round corners!!

Hmmm.... Needlessly Happy 4:00 am sleep deprived me is gonna try and get some sleep now.

eh, get some sleep and get out from underneath my chair. My mouse pad at home has poodles on it! Kell's idea, not mine

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

I let mine rome around... I dont confine it to a pad. hahahaha. beat that.

. . .

I bought a new optical mouse, but for some reason it doesn't seem to work. No matter which way I look the cursor just sits in one place, and that bright light hurts when I hold it up to my eye. "Ow! My eye!"

I also try to keep my poodles off the mousepad, as they have a tendency to shed.



[This message has been edited by Suho1004 (edited 05-08-2002).]

Isn't hte Indian Spice Paprika, not Patrika?

Also: On that collective email thing...how about this. We all send an email, signed by everybody. I shows us as a united front if we all send the email with the same ending (ie: all of our names), rather than alot of people all tlaking about the same thing.

Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 05-08-2002).]

Hmm... I thought paprika was Hungarian.

And I like the collective e-mail idea with everyone signing.

Prolly before most of you jointed, this was when the site was at a member count of maybe 300, 400.

He was a prominent member of the board.

Doc found him to have taken his entire site and had it up and online at his domain.

Doc took care of most of it since it was his site.

2winspapa was never kicked, but for some reason never came back...

Maybe just changed usernames?

I take it that wasn't the guy in Croatia that had 'stolen' Docs entire site...wow, so many out there, stealin' Docs stuff...

I suppose in a way you must be doing something right if so many people want to rip your site but it is such an well-known and distinctive look.

Doc: Have you kept screenshots of the various offenders? Just from memory I can think of 4 or 5 that have done - a little gallery of rips might be fun.

There might even be a prize for most rips. I notice that on the main page at:
www.pirated-sites.com

they list the rips of this site (11!!):
www.2advanced.com

and that is some competition!!

I notice Glish and Noah Grey get a few mentions too!!

Emps

WS said:

quote:

---

I take it that wasn't the guy in Croatia

---

Nope Alaska.

Later,
C:\


~Binary is best~

Well, i remember the name of 2winspapa, but I don't ever remember being here when he/she was here...think that was in the archives somewhere (the name).

Ok, we have the mail thing...any ideas on how to impliment it? I kinda like the idea of a 'mass' mail thing. Just wondering how to set it up.

Emps after looking at pirated-sites.com's copies of 2advanced's site. I have a question:

When is a site considered "Ripped"?

Two of the examples posted(www.prtbl.com and cnetcomm.com) I would argue are "inspired by" 2advanced but are not direct copies of the site. They imitate the style and layout but the graphics are their own. While BSS was a jackass, stealing artwork and the laughing about it, I dont believe every "ripper" may be the same.

Some people may be new to design and simply emulating what they like. When I wanted to draw comics(a long time ago- see age thread) I copied a lot of John Byrnes style. This helped me learn perspective and anatomy. I was learning, not ripping. Also others may be borrowing from the same style or era (I am designing a site now for James Brown using alot of 70's motiffs, alot of people have used these, we're not ripping one another but borrowing from the same sources).

I guess Im worried that less experienced artists may be discouraged from posting because somebody might recognize the site or artwork that they emulated and then call them a "ripper."

Of course may be the only answer may be what the Supreme Court said about pornography-"I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

-tiki



[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 05-09-2002).]

tikigod: Its a very good point and we should be careful that we focus on full site rips and the most flagrant examples of people passing off straight rips as their own work. We'd wear ourselves getting worked up over minor issues which have innocent explanations.

Emps

It is agrey area and if we go around chasing every little thing we'll end up like the boy who cried wolf and people will just ignore us. We should also be prepared to stand up for inmates who are legitimately using montage/sampling in their work. I think people might be able to help themselves too by keeping a little credit page going on there site which notes the source of images used (its what people have to do wth samples in music these days). If someone did accuse you of ripping a credit page could go a long way to taking the heat off you.

Emps

This reason, among others, is exactly what I meant when I decided to post this thread...here is where we start making tough decisions on definition before it becomes a problem...in a case like that of BSS, the decision is simple, because it is rather obvious. Other decisions are not so cut-and-dried : is it really ripped?

And here is where discussing it before it happens comes in handy. We can talk about the topic without being emotionally influenced by an event. 'Gray' areas are always tough to define...

OK, here's my two cents on plagiarism, looking at it from a different perspective. I don't know if this will help in the current discussion, but sometimes it is helpful to take a different approach to a problem.

In my field, academia, plagiarism (i.e., "ripping") is a huge faux pas. There are basically two types of plagiarism: direct and indirect. In direct plagiarism, the person basically lifts a passage directly from a source and inserts it into their own work without quotation marks and without citation. This happens mostly in student papers--very rarely will an established scholar engage in this sort of activity. Indirect plagiarism, on the other hand, involves a person taking an idea or concept that was previously published and using it in their work without citation, even if they paraphrase it. This is a much easier trap to fall into, and scholars will sometimes be guilty of this sort of plagiarism through carelessness (not properly citing sources), and on occasion by deliberate intent.

It is difficult to draw the line between direct and indirect plagiarism. The reason for that is that it is difficult to define how much you have to change the text in order for it to be considered a paraphrase. This issue, though, is pretty much moot because it is all plagiarism. It doesn't matter if you lift the passage directly from an Internet paper, make subtle changes to a published passage, or completely paraphrase an idea--it's all plagiarism.

Of course, there is common knowledge, and this does not need to be cited. Anything else, though, needs a citation. Passing the work of other's off as your own, no matter how it may be altered, is plagiarism, plain and simple.

How does this relate to the issue at hand? Well, I am not an expert on graphics ripping, but here is how I would look at it. Maybe I'm being a bit naive, but I'm just trying to apply what I know about ripping from another field. I think that if you use someone else's graphics--no matter how you may mutilate or change them, you need to at the very least cite the author (and get permission, if possible). Imitating a style, on the other hand, is not ripping as long as the content is different. For example, if I wrote a novel in Hemingway's style, no one would accuse me of being a plagiarist (although they might accuse me of being weird). However, if I made some minor changes to The Old Man and the Sea and tried to publish it as my original work, all hell would break loose. I think this same principle works for entire sites as well as for just graphics.

tikigod said it perfectly: "we're not ripping one another but borrowing from the same sources." The 70s motifs in question could be considered to be in the realm of common property. I also agree with Emps about a credits page. This is how one covers one's butt in academia; I don't see why it can't be done on the web.

Well, I don't know if it's a significant contribution to the discussion, but that's my take on the subject.

actually, suho, I think Hemingway is dead for more than 70 years, wish *should* put his works into the public domain, so you could do whatever you wish with it.

But then, Disney and Co are working hard to get that part removed from copyright law (ie. things never become public domain...)

so long,

Tyberius Prime

One other thing I would like to run past you guys...how do we go about 'joining' together all the boards, affiliates, etc, to share information about rippers? IMHO this would be one of the most potent forms of 'prosecuting' rippers...especially for setting examples, etc, for future rippers...

It bothers me to no end, that 'rippers' even those who have been 'caught', can continue to solicit affilites, because these 'affiliates' don't know that the person in question is a ripper...it would be very effective if one could 'streamline' the information about rippers and insure that the information made its way rapidly through the net...from board to board, from webring to webring...that would go a long way to preventing a ripper from continuing...and set the scene to discourage others from ripping...

With all the types of coding possibilities nowdays, it must surely be easy enough to do that...isolating rippers from the communities and getting the word out.

Any ideas?

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-09-2002).]

I think pirated-sites has a good idea, but poorly implemented.

I think maybe a news letter type deal would work well, where we go to different active webmasters and tell them about it and ask them to join.

Could even do a website on this, but that might be a bit much.

Thanks for the nitpick, TP

Hemingway was just off the top of my head. But you get the idea.

I think Warmage is right on the money there - pirated-sites has its plus points but poor navigation and a slight lack of focus (there is a lot of the front page devoted to other matters). I think another web site might be overkill (but it is an option) - I like the idea of a news letter (RipAlert) and pos. getting the people behind pirated-sites on board (I think it would be a good idea to co-ordinate things through them) and as I said here:
www.ozoneasylum.com/Forum15/HTML/000061.html

a way of making big hosts actually take this situation seriously.

Emps

Ok, I think this idea is solid...and I'm on board...who else? Let's get this thing into gear. For those of you who are interested, have ideas, etc (and Ini, your coding skills could come in handy here...) let's get started...First, we need an outline...and we need to decide on some fundamental issues. Be aware I don't want to start some sort of 'witch-hunt' thing....just a way of moving information fast concerning proven rippers...perhaps we need some 'big' support here...Doc, what do you think? I've noticed that quite a few 'established' Asylumnites have been avoiding this thread...I feel that a news-service about proven rippers is a good idea, and if implimented properly, could be a big step in the direction of 'weeding out' (i.e. isolating) rippers...

If it is necessary to 'create' a new site, I'm willing to foot the cost...

If we truly believe in stopping/preventing/persuing/isolating rippers, then we have a duty to do something about it. The only way to go about it (IMHO) is to get as many on board as possible. Alone, we are weak, and easy to ignore...together, united, we can make a difference. This problem is not just an Asylum problem, or DeviantART problem, etc, it's a problem for all. Let's do something about it...now.

The way I see it, we need good ideas, a solid base to work from, and support from many webrings and forums, sites, etc. Let's first start from the beginning, one step at a time.

Who's on board? Maybe we should move this thread to somewhere else...or start a new one.

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-09-2002).]

WS: Its a complex and involved issue and perhaps it does require its own site as pirated-sites seems to concentrate on only one area (visual similarity) and I think we do need to address not just blatant age rips but also graphics and text (and audio and video I suppose) so we are going to have to provide a more indepth overview of each case rather than just a few screenshots (although plenty of evidence is important - I noticed an number of times that people were demanding lots of proof so a well argued and presented case with lots of evidence is important). So here are my thoughts on things you'll need:

1. Some kind of 'report' on the rips. It can also act like a Hall of Shame.

2. A mailing list to alert people to potential problems - so they can get invovled in mailing hosts or just identifying the source of the stolen material.

3. Fairly strict guidleines on how things should progress - keep the emails polite and the action low key (at least initially) I don't think we want this kind of thing to spiral out of control - often a quick email will solve things.

4. A section on how the law pertains to this (Shi - any thoughts?)

5. A discussion on sampling and montage so we outline what we aren't going to go off chasing. Might want to mention things ike crediting sources for your work (we are going to have to be more responsoble too). We should always err on the side of caution.

6. Links to other good resources.

7. Something responsible hosts can sign themselves up to saying that they will tale all efforts to act quickly that kind of thing.

8. Something on tools to help prevent ripping (InI was working on somethig interesting the other week), help spot it when it occurs, how to track down offenders, etc.

Its your baby WS but you have my support on this one.

Emps

Thanks Emps, and that list was a good start...o.k. the ball is rolling...perhaps a website is required...any good ideas for a domain name?

As for that that Ini is working on...it's a great idea. Tho personally I don't think there is a 100% way to 'protect' ones property, having at least something is better than nothing..

And that about progressing against rippers slowly and precisely, with evidence first, is exactly what I meant..no 'witch-hunts', no 'hot-headedness'. This has to be done correctly, or no-one will take us seriously. And yes, I know how much work it is, to collect such evidence...that is why it would be such an advantage to have many working on it...cuts the work load. I have thought along the lines of having a 'news service', that could be presented on a variety of boards, webrings, etc. Of course, we will need major support for this...getting something started is one thing, but getting the support is another...one thing after another.

WS: You are right that one of the most important things is not letting things get out of hand. We need clear guidelines for goals, targets, methods, etc.

You have made quite a lot of contacts while chasing BSS' affiliates and so you might want to approach them for some kind of support/partnership.

Names? I like 'Jack the Rippers' but we might want to go for something like 'Ripper Report', etc. (although this might be a little too close to jack the Ripper websites.

No anti-theft device are 100% effective (and no right click scripts are annoying and encoding your HTML is just plain rude) but the more obstacles you put in their way (as long as it doesn't get in the way of legitimate people's uses) the less likely they are to steal your things.

Emps

is 'ripper report' free? And should it be a .com? Let me know, and I will reserve the name...I want this to succeed.

Yes, I've had a number of contacts (And thanks, BSS! Bet he didn't imagine that something like this would grow out of his ripping...), but first we need a good, solid fundament to build on. One thing that I've learned is, to get the thing together first before soliciting other sites, etc.

So I guess a website is necessary...so we start there, first. Guidelines are a must, as one can see above. Getting that together is very necessary. I feel that we have made a good start. Getting other involved in building and helping with the guidelines is for me the most important at this stage...it's very easy (as I learned during the BSS thing) to 'lose' one's perspective in the 'heat' of the hunt...and the DeviantART thing only reinforces that...having others to help balance that is a must...a case of 'not being able to see the forest for the tress' kind of thing. That must be avoided at all costs. I don't wish to start something that persecutes innocents....but instead punishes the guilty.

Keep the ideas coming, any help is appreciated.

Rippers, we are coming!

I'm on board and I'm willing to help.

I want to say, however, that I think placing someones name on a site and building evidence against them should be a method of last resort. There may are other ways to deal with a possible "ripper" that are not so heavy-handed. The critque process is one. An example is-

"I like the direction your going with that design but it looks a lot like soandso.com. You should probably play with it a little more so you can find your style."

Another is "taking it to email" with a couple of polite suggestions. I think this should be done before posting an accusation publiclly. It will give the person a chance to explain themselves privately without embarassment and maybe even save face on both sides. I think immediate public confrontation may create a more explosive situation. If a person is nervous about sending the email they could cc: another member involved with the project as kind of a witness. I think this would cutdown on the "witchhunt" perception also. I think if the first couple of confrontations are kept private there may be less hurt feelings on both sides.

-tiki

Ok, good point tikigod - and very reasonable. I like it. BTW - welcome on board.

For the website...well, we'll definitely need a DB...but which one? Any ideas?

WS: ripperreport.anything-I-could-think-of and ripper-report.ditto are all free.

PHP and MySQL would seem like a good option.

Emps

ripperreport.com sounds like a winner.

Who ya gonna call?
www.ripbusters.com

Apparently the most notorious ripper is from the U.K.
they even have a nickname for him
they call him, Jack, Jack the Ripper!
true story

Ok, ripperreport it is...just ordered the three domains ripperreport.com, .de, .org.

Need more information on MySQL...where can I get it?

I've been doing some thinking on this (big surprise). The search machines changed the way of doing websites, why not add a way to 'protect' (i.e. add protect through such a site as this one) ones site from ripping? Not only webrings and websites have this problem, but all the award sites must also be aware of this problem as well. If we can get them involved, it would be one step closer to going 'mainstream'. For the award sites, one could 'proof' submissions before they are 'awarded'...would give more 'weight' to the award, and after the experience that I have made with the BSS thing, it would appear that at least some rippers use the awards to 'pump' their sites...

Also, need some ideas as to the website itself (how should it look, logo, colors, etc). Any ideas, comments? And the coding....

It's starting to take form, now...

Also, considering past expierences (PSPong comes to mind...) I would like to make this a group effort. However, because I intend to see this thing happening, I would like to avoid some of the...obsticales that previous joint efforts have encountered. ideas in this direction would also be appreciated...

[This message has been edited by WebShaman (edited 05-10-2002).]

WS: Well you are quick off the mark there!!

MySQL will usually come with the hosting (I'll email you about that).

I have to confess I don't understand the paragraph about awards and search engines. I do think that most of the awards aren't worth the paper they aren't written on a legitimate ones probably take more care about who they award things to. It might be worth having a 'responsible awards' section where awards sign up to guarantee that they will make all efforts not to make an award to a ripper.

The problems that arose with PSPong have been avoided as there is someone actually in overall control of this project (like THE BOX). I'm thinking of dark colours although should we really go for a Jack the Ripper kind of feel? Might lend it a sinister edge?

Thoughts anyone?

Emps

Well, with the awards thing, I was mainly thinking along the lines of getting them involved...most rippers are people with low self-confidence and skills (or work for companies and under time pressure) and therefore are seeking acknowledgement...getting linked, getting into webrings, and awards...being able to provide a service for the good awards sites would help 'improve' the seriousness of the planned site...as for the search machines...well, today everyone wants to get listed...wouldn't it be nice if one could also 'get protected'? These are long-range plans, of course...one small step after another...

I would also love to have a search method of 'known' rippers, where one could find past perps fast...websites, names, or IP address...that would also be cool.

Ok, on with the ideas...how about some colors? Logo ideas? Layout? I'm open to suggestions...

I haven't contributed to this thread yet as most of my opinions has already been covered, but I thought it was time to show my support

I think that a dark and simple layout would suit the webpage...

-= Veneficuz =-
"Mundus vult decipi. Ergo decipiatur."

I like tikigod's posts to this thread. In addition to the need to provide a measured response, I think rippers don't deserve so much attention. For one thing, attention is exactly what they're seeking, and for another thing they already know they don't have skills; we don't need to tell them.

Of course, where I draw the line is when a Ripper makes money off of someone else's work, and to a lesser extent any time they get hired based on stolen examples. I think revealing rippers to the world is a valuable cause simply to prevent them from making a living off of such dishonorable means. I hope the goals of the project are focused on preventing people from being deceived by the ripper rather than vengeance against a person who doesn't even have enough self esteem to try to learn something legitimately.

I don't view this goal as a punishment to the ripper. In my eyes, the ripper punishes themselves by wasting their time doing something immoral when they could be learning something new and becoming a more skilled individual. Consider BSS if you will. He said a lot of incensing things just to piss us off, but why did he do what he did? Because he was jealous of other peoples' ability. Deep down inside he probably believed he was incapable of learning. He could go through life, be succesful through deceit, and maybe even convince himself that he had done pretty good for himself; but could he ever believe that he made the world a better place? Or that he had contributed something to the marketplace of ideas? These are my ideals (and many of us here I would imagine), somebody who doesn't believe in those things is not worth my time.




-jiblet

Hmmm...interesting point jiblet...however, I think you, like many, many others are missing the point entirely...this 'isn't' about rippers per se, it's about artists, coders, etc and how to protect ones creations...the ripper in question isn't going to 'go away' and die, in some small, dark corner of the world...quite the contrary. It's also about informing people...people that would otherwise be 'dubbed' by the ripper in question. And getting organized...saying no to ripping, and that we won't tolerate it. Ini has already done some investigating into digital means of protection...but found out that there are no 'good' digital protections out there, and doesn't seem likely to be any in the future...what can be digitally made, can be copied...so how do we protect against it? By establishing the idea that it is wrong in the minds of people and bringing these people together. Alone, we have very little influence on others...in numbers, we have much more of a chance of that. Information. It is the best protection...when enough know that one rips, it becomes very hard to remain in the mainstream. And when all know it....practically impossible. Of course, we can choose to ignore it, as you seem to imply (they are sorrowful individuals, etc.) and hope that it goes away...but I don't see that happening...and that is how dictators come to power...on the contrary, it isn't going to go away, it's becoming more and more commonplace...make a stand now, or join the ripping crowd tomorrow.

Why should they stop? And please don't forget that rippers influence others, as well. Picture this - newbie sees an established site, looks real nice (but is ripped). Nobody cares. What do you think the newbie will decide? To do all the hard work of learning how to do it (which takes time, patience and doesn't really 'grab' anyone's attention for a while), or rip it - overnight, he has oohs and aahs, is the spotlight and influences others further. 'Hey, look, you don't have to learn all that, are you stupid or what? Just rip it, like I and everyone else has.'

Now, regarding the 'money' issue...is that all it is to you, money? So if it doesn't involve money, it is not important? Does that mean that creating can only have meaning when it makes money? I don't believe that. And I would hope that most artists don't either.

To the point - this isn't about vengence. It's about getting organized, and shariing information. Changing peoples perspectives...not only showing that something can be done, but proving it. Removing the helplessness, and yes, challenging the lethargy on the issue. If you are against ripping, then do something about it. But what? There are so many rippers out there...how can I make a difference? And the work involved is really time-consuming, hell, I don't have time for it. But in numbers, vast numbers, we can and do. Information. It works. We just need to support it.

Example BSS - no, we didn't really change his mind (at least I don't think so), but that wasn't the point (though it would have been nice). We did change a lot of perspectives from his affiliates, boards and webrings. That in turn did have an affect...the desired affect - he removed that which was proven ripped. Against his will. And lost a lot of that which he thought he had 'gained' i.e. respect. But he, and others, are still out there...waiting. Waiting for us to 'forget'. Waiting for time to 'smooth over' the past...to rise again. Once again, information. It won't go away, it can be stored...and called back up whenever needed.

And that is the core point of my idea. I'm not interested in a digital crusade. I'm not interested in a world-wide-web inquisition. I'm interested in providing information to any who feel they need it...so that they can protect themselves. It could work. It just needs support. It is a way of 'streamlining' the way we persue rippers now. Take out the hard work involved, and let people have an easier way of informing themselves. Giving them the needed information, and letting them decide.

Consider this - what if you had this report on your site...and a report came out that someone had ripped something of yours. Now you know what and who. You don't have to search for it, spend hours, days, weeks investigating it. And you also know that you have the support of vast numbers of people, people that will help you. Communities, webrings, individual sites, all on your side. Suddenly, when you speak out against the ripper, your voice is carried by the multitudes...your choice. Or you can continue like you are now...alone against the vast numbers of faceless rippers. Yes, you have this community....and maybe a couple of others. But as you can see in the case of BSS, we couldn't really do much about him. Oh, sure, we had some success. We do have some numbers here. But he is still there, still has ripped stuff, is still soliciting 'unknowing' associates...and there are many, many more like him out there. How do you intend to protect yourself against this? E-mails? Nasty threats? Threatened lawsuits? Each and every time? As your skills grow, your site becomes more 'popular', and you earn more respect in the net, the more prominant that you are, the more likely that you will be 'targeted' by rippers. Are you going to go through this process with each and every ripper? They have much more time and energy than you do (do the math). Do you wish to spend your time persuing rippers, instead of doing that which you enjoy? And if it is money that is important to you, just how much does all this cost? Lost hours...maybe lost lawsuits.

So think about it.

Maybe I am just shouting 'wolf'. Maybe the ripping thing is just a fad. Maybe...but what if it isn't? My experiences have shown me that it is a real threat. And I am doing something about it. Would it hurt you to consider supporting the idea? Or at least giving it a chance? I see absolutely no risk for you at all to consider this. I do see a risk if you do not.

But it is your choice.

Its not about vengenace. If it can be sorted out with a quiet email then that is good enough for me.

As well as the things WS said it will be a chance to bring together information for people who have been ripped (esp. about how the law applies) and to just let them know they aren't alone.

It is a serious issue and has cropped up here time and time again (ignoring recent events):
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000729-1-000124.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000729-1-000133.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010412-1-001218.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001747.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001759.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010814-1-002020.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001718.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010413-1-001320.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000802-1-000247.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000905-1-000141.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000529-1-000028.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20010714-1-001761.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20000729-1-000132.html
www.ozoneasylum.com/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20001231-1-000608.html

If we have a problem there always seems to be numerous people here who can help with the problem and supply support but some people are out there without that kind of network and I'm sure they'd be grateful for a site that tells them they aren't alone, provides whatever help they want (tools for tracking down ripper or host information, standardised letters, help if intial emails don't work, etc.).

Emps

I don't think money should be the bottom line but if people are offering other people's hard work for sale as their own then that is another aspect to the whole problem - they aren't just hurting themselves and the online community but they are also defrauding clients.

If we are going to write up the worst cases as actual reports (which I think is important - pirated-sites just really names and shames but a more detailled report on persistent offenders, people who take things down wait until the heat is off and then put everything back up again, etc. will have educational benefit and show the best strategies in different cases) we should cut people little slack who are doing this kind of thing commercially.

Emps

indeed...

To Live is To Die...

from up your own arse you mean. If you hadn't guessed Bull Shit Spinner, your presence is not welcome here anymore...oh, and no one finds your little activites funny, no one except you. Doesn't it feel GREAT to know that you're all alone in your own little fantasy land where you rule and death to the others, where as back here in reality, you are a small, insignificant worm that is but a piddling annoyance.

Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

[This message has been edited by Skaarjj (edited 05-11-2002).]

"My experiences have shown me that it is a real threat. And I am doing something about it." i dont think you should handle it by calling them niggers. plus webshamen doesnt have room to talk because his site is using a template.

I don't know who you are starbucks3710, but if you have a problem with my site, then please show us what you mean...what is a 'template' on my site, please?

Also, I never called anybody that name...

quote:

---

i dont think you should handle it by calling them niggers.

---

That is uncalled for. Period. Suggesting such racial undertones here is way out of line...
You do realize what exactly you have posted here, don't you? Everyone can see this...are you absolutely sure you wish to use your first post for something like this? It's a great way to get a negative reaction, is that what you want?...so think about it.

you posted on www.durandall.org in his shoutbox racial slurs such as that. dont lie, maybe it wasnt you but someone used your same name and website as you and posted this "WebShaman: Hey pussies! why not battle me on my forum and let's see what u've got..rippers! http://www.ozonea
sylum.com/cgi-bin/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics" also because durandall.org has an african american on the front of the site. you (webshamen) posted that that was durandall's "nigger" boyfriend. so would you please clar this up.

starbucks3710: You should be aware that quite a number of inmates posted messages to BSS' site and had them changed - the shoutbox also contained quite a few made up messages acreddited to people who didn't post them (in fact they all were done in pretty similar writing styles).

Don't believe everything you read - esp. online where it is very easy to fake user names (esp. in the shout box).

Emps

BSS, I love tenaciousness. I am really amused that you showed up to get kicked a bit more. I must admit some disappointment that you had to create a seperate identity to try and troll a bit but seeing your ripper self posting in this thread more than compensated for it.

WebShaman this should allay your concerns that you could ever go 'too far' with rippers. Too far is showing up at his address with a baseball bat and a smile, anything prior to that is fair game.



[This message has been edited by moaiz (edited 05-11-2002).]

While I have tried to be moderate in my views in how to deal rippers I have only one thing to say about this situation:

"Private Shaman feel free to stomp Private Sundays guts out." <edit-metaphorically>

Starbucks I really wish you hadn't decided to bring that baggage into this debate. I doubt WS posted that. I think it might have been sombody who hates WS and who craves a great deal of attention:

*tikigod points his boat drink in BSS's direction*

I hope you can clear this up. Im sorry that your introduction to the Asylum was so negative. You'll find that there are good people here. So grab a straitjacket and some little black pills and enjoy your stay.

-tiki



[This message has been edited by tikigod (edited 05-11-2002).]

ok well i apoligize but he said to come to this forum and "battle" him and he said that i ripped when i didnt because all i ahve on my site is asians. so a apoligize and if you could, can the real webshamen post on my shoutbox and say it is him so i can tell his ip from the false webshamen. sorry for bringing this here i just was lead by his shout.

starbucks3710: Don't worry too much about that BSS' games probably spread far and wide (have a read of some of the threads connected with him here) and forging names on shoutboxes is the least of it (whatever you think of WS he doesn't right like Cartman) - if it is your site with the shoutbox (nice site by the way) then I'd consider removing him from your affiliates box below the shoutbox.

Anyway - stick around and ask questions.

Emps

i will remove him immeaditly and what is thwith bss? if i am affiliated wit him why would someone post on my box saying racial slurs? is it bss? also when he tries to make fun of my site can you guys at least try to stand up for me because he is claiming he came from here/

starbucks3710: Its his way of stirring up trouble and causing confusion and misunderstandings. Take screenshots of any abuse of your site and send them to WS. If you can get his IP you could try blocking it. Email him and just say politely that you know what his game is and you'll just remove his posts when he adds. Be warned your shoutbox is open to abuse and if things 'hot up' then you may need to pull it for a week or so or think about having people log in (which rather spoils the idea of the thing. Don't post messages on his guestbook as they have been re-edited and don't do any good anyway. If you know of anyone else affiliated with him or anywhere where he posts on a regular basis then you could let them know about his games as they might get similar posts to yourself.

We'll lend you what support we can - our best advice to to largely ignore him and just remove any offensive posts he makes. Keep us informed if he tries any other tricks.

Emps

Basically BSS is trying his damdest (probably the only thing he's ever tried hard at in his life) to ruin the image of our members and the asylum itself by going out into the net and posting shit under our names ot make it look like we're a bunch of KKK, neo-nazi, racist, etc., assholes who [bullshit]*puts on puppy dog eyes and big, quivering, sticking out bottom lip* go after poor, innicent little web designers who did nothing wrong except putting their talent and original work out there.[/bullshit] He's trying...and having the tiniest bit of success in osme places (hence your visit here), but then we invite all those who would beleive him to come here and review our evidence against him.

It's cool though. Just so long as you've stopped believing him...we're fine



Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live

and on that note....new thread!

Koan 63:
Those who Believe
Can
Those who Try
Do
Those who Love
Live